Upcoming siege changes in next major update

Joy_Division

SirDopey wrote: »

I like the idea of siege effects not being purgable, I really don't see eye to eye with the people saying this helps the zerg mentality. Surely this goes against zergs?!? I mean the only time I ever get caught in siege AOE is when im A) Siegeing or B)in a LARGE close group. Given the amount of time you have to escape siege AoE I never (or at least very rarely) get caught in it when running in small groups, you just roll dodge out of it????

I don't shoot siege weapons at solo players or small groups.

bowmanz607

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

GoS balls up plenty. Believe me, I fight them enough, ask Rylana. Against groups like mine they have strats that involve spreading out, but they certainly recondense when they want to hit us hard, or against groups that don't have as much DPS as mine. Remember, spreading out is a survival tactic, not a winning one. Winning in a group of any size is the same: focused dps. In a small man it's sustaining till you burst down the enemy healer, in raids it's sustaining/scattering until you recondense to aoe bomb.

I've never said that they never ball up. I've said that they know when it's time to spread out from a group and to reform back on crown after an ulti dump. They also can fight and destroy people while staying spread out as demonstrated on this video as they fight another organized AD guild :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OltsY1NbPJg

As to how many times I'm outnumbered, I'd say plenty. On Monday and Sunday of this week alone with 24 people I found myself fighting against 2-5x my number. I might have won at Aleswell too if not for lag, at the end there was simply no abilities going off, but until then we repelled groups upwards of 3x our size from the keeps and surrounding resources. On a regular night I find myself outnumbered pretty much anytime I hit a defended keep. If the people within the keep grouped up and used strategy I'd have a really tough time of it.

From what I've seen on the night of tuesday, you were running a medium group of 12 between bleakers and chalman mine and you were constantly rushing ones and twos (me included) and you farmed lower numbers on the chalman mine for a while. Not saying that you do it all the time but still you don't hesitate when you get a chance to get some easy AP.

In the end that's why I'm really bothered by these changes. Bulb and I wanted to effect change on the Map, we wanted to wipe big groups, defend keeps, take territory. So we learned macro strategy, built our small group of players into a competitive raid and adapted to multiple patches and metas. And we are effective at all sizes. I logged on the other day to hear zone complaining about an AD ball group terrorizing glademist, all the usual about invincible spam monkeys. Went over and killed them with 8 people and a meatbag. What stopped the 30 other people there from doing exactly that? A lack of organization, know how or skill.

I would love to see your 8man with a meatbag wipe Vehemence 24men group doing the same.

That's why this looks ugly to me. Gameplay mechanics aren't holding people back, there is no secret formula for success. But you and others in this thread talk about changes that will allow you to take on and defeat a group like mine and quite frankly you don't deserve to. If you want to beat a good guild, earn it. Build your group, learn strategy, time some stealth bombs. To everyone complaining you can't stop these "ball groups", good. You didn't build to beat them, they built themselves to beat you, and they're going to keep doing it until you stop complaining and decide to counter them.

As i've said in my previous thread quoting you, your one and only solution is to suggest to pugs or guilds who don't use teamspeak to get to "your level" and use "ulti dumbs" and "stack on the crown" blob tactics to win the fight.

Problem is, as alot of solo / small / medium groups have pointed out in this thread is that not everybody like to run in a 24men group. It does not mean that since they don't want to, they should fear your group and that they should say "Oh Vehemence is coming to Chalman guys, lets go away we dont stand any chance".

No. We need a zerg buster which is going to force a large group to spread out. This isn't an easy button win. This is is a "spread out or die" button. This initiative is going to encourage people to use single target abilities in the meantime until your blob restack together and do your spamming thing that you like so much. Server performances are going to get better in the meantime aswell.

Also, unlike most people here who are in favor of the siege changes, I understand when you say that it takes skills and organisation to lead and run in a large group. I have been doing it for a year with my own guild in the beginning, then with IR, Nexus, and I still do it with GoS from time to time. BUT the small scale people have it alot harder than you to try to find a way to destroy your group. The reason why a zerg buster IS needed. Again, this is not intended to be easy, and trust me you will adjust in no time to the "spread and reform" move. Moon Die was the first one as far as I'm concerned to use this strategy and Crystalized has done it a ton of time when I used to run with him aswell.

Hell, you think keep takes are hard now, wait until an organized raid is defending a keep inner with a full siege deployment. It's going to be stupid, and the only way to take it from them will be ....

.....

wait for it....

... to stack bigger numbers yourself. Back to square *** one.

Again, if you attack a keep well defended, you should require an army to take it. I'm really looking forward for the reintroduction of the forward camps because it is going to encourage people to hit deeper in enemy territory and this is what organized groups should do. I don't know why people expect to capture a keep without too much troubles if there is alot of sieges already deployed with an organized group.. you should have near to 0 chances.

Advices :

1) Bring more than one wall down
2) Send vampire nightblades with cloak inside to assassinate people using sieges on the breach
3) Separate your large group into smaller ones and go in between each siege volleys

bowmanz607 wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain doesn't want to spread out . Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

Here, fixed that for you.

Oh right, I'll spread out while moving through a choke, why didnt I think of that?

@Satiar - I understand that this thread has now 20pages+ of comments in a two days period. But I have read and aknowledged all of it. I've replied to several players telling me the same argument. The main reason why all the small group folks want to buff siege is to give us a chance to hold the ballgroup as long as possible to give a chance to reinforcements to arrive. In most scenarios, people try to siege a keep with low defense and this is totally right to do so.

As I pointed out in different posts, when you siege a keep that is well defended already, you should not expect to capture it with only a medium group. You should need an army to get it. When the breach goes down and defenders properly deployed counter-sieges aiming at the breach, YOU SHOULD BE FORCED to pick between two options :

1) You spread out into smaller groups and jump inside between each siege volley
2) You get an additional wall down

There is no "How am I supposed to spread out when going inside a choke point". If people are covering a choke point with sieges, you simply don't go into that choke point. Simple enough right? Siege > Ball group. I understand that the skill involved in using a siege is not at the same level as running an organized group. BUT the point to have sieges is to COUNTER organized groups trying to capture a keep without the necessity to have our own organized group.

This solution could be temporary until Zenimax finds a way to improve the latency. Because right now, when two different 24men groups fight each other inside a keep, it is unplayable. Whoever have the more numbers win because it takes too much time to cc break, weapon swap and all kind of crap. I personally would like these siege changes to stay in place even if we don't have latency problems anymore. Because I don't think the only counter to a ballgroup should be a ballgroup. We need another zerg buster and since Prox det totally failed this purpose, siege will do it entirely.

frozywozy wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Are you seriously claiming that sieges inside keeps are dangerous as it is right now? You must be kidding me. You are one of the few groups who don't even bother going straight on flags when you get inside an inner. Often I see your group running up the stairs to the back flag to the inner breach, and up the stairs again doing your lil maneuvers for 5minutes straight, killing people NOT because it is necessary and because you risk wiping BUT for the show and for the extra APs, even if you will never admit it.

Siege does absolutely nothing and bring no threat whatsoever to your 4-5 barriers rotation, purge and regen maneuver spammers 24men group. Don't even try..

Wait what?

How I take a keep depends entirely on who is inside it. There are several ways to play a keep take. You can push through to flags and force an enemy to engage you there, you can go up far or near side stairs and attempt to control the top, you can paintrain around to beat down resistance before taking flags. I'll never deny trying to get my guys some AP and kills, but serious keep takes with serious resistance are entirely different.

Siege on its own isn't going to kill me, obviously. I have 24 people specced to heal, purge and maintain the raid. if any random person could put siege on me and ruin me, that'd be silly. What ruins me in keep takes is a well-coordinated group using their defensive choke to force me into a bad situation. Honestly, the main guild that does this now is Haxus. Most other groups try to bomb me on back flag, or on front flag, or at the top of the stairs-- meh. I'd say 90% of my keep wipes come from getting ult-dumped in the breach. All it takes is one good burst of DPS and CC there, and suddenly everything catches up: the oils, the meatbags, the fire trebs/ballista. And than we die, and it's tragic.

@Satiar - Like I've said in my post, it is easy to see the difference between a large group going upstair to clear the oils, going on the flags to flip the keep, etc. Alot of times, when I see you guys taking Chalman, this is NOT what you do. You spend 5 minutes running arround the inner keep to farm people for the show, not because they apply any threat whatsoever to you. Siege is a joke as it is. I fire your guys with meatbags, fire balistas and what are the results? As soon as my siege reach your guys, there is another barrier popping up.

Can most people do it to us? Yes, but they don't. You have no idea how many times I've been defending a keep or outpost on DC and seen everyone huddled upstairs and pounding the breach with siege as if that's supposed to do something. Siege is a tool, a force amplifier, something you use to make your group's defensive position stronger. Buffing it to godly levels because you can't be bothered to learn how to use your other tools (your group) in addition to using point and click siege is just silly.

This thread is not a patch note. This thread is an open discussion opened by Brian Wheeler months in advance to hear our feedbacks and suggestions. Like most people, including me pointed out, the siege buffs are overkilled. I have given several suggestions to tweak it down but in the end, the UTILITY of the sieges HAVE to change. It is not only a matter of damage.

My suggestions, again, in case you missed it :

1) Meatbag and oil catapult debuffs/snares SHOULD be purgable, but not with any morph of Purge. Purge should be used only to remove player debuffs/snares. Cleansing Ritual should remove every negative effect. It would require individual player interaction using the synergy himself.

2) Oil catapult / Lightning balista should deal only 2k damage (for testing purposes - adjust if needed afterward)

3) Retreating Maneuvers should NOT remove or give immunity to siege snares (only player snares). Charging Maneuvers should remove siege snares but NOT give immunity.

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@frozywozy

Agreed, you know I have advocated for un-purgable siege for nearly a year now, and you were one of the first ones on here to see why it was necessary. It is necessary, Siege is useless in its current form.

What many people don't understand is Siege has to be the zerg buster, thats its role, artillery is designed for. Its ridiclious these people can stand in concentrated siege fire and oil pots and not die. I saw a group of 20 get hit by 3 fire ballistas, a fire treb, and a cold harbor fire ballista all at nearly the same time right into the middle of their group and not a single person died, it didn't even make a scratch, thats just outright rubbish plain and simple.

These people are not looking at the bigger picture, Siege has the following DISADVANTAGES:

1. it can only be placed on perfectly flat surfaces
2. around keeps and such the limit is 20
3. while using the siege weapon your 5 abilities and ultimate can not be used without getting off the siege.
4. While using the siege weapin you are a sitting duck with no defense, vulnerable to any one sneaking up and killing you.
5. Siege weapons are slow to turn, have a slow fire rate, and their projectiles travel slowly to far away targets
6 Have a slow reload rate
7. Must be packed and unpacked
8. Each one takes up an inventory slot
9. Cost AP to buy
10. Cost AP to repair
11. Wear out pretty quick
12. Can be destroyed

There is 12 BIG disadvantages to using a siege weapon, its needs to have some benefits for all the drawbacks to using them. Right now the drawbacks far outweigh any advantage there is to using them.

These coming changes will alleviate those drawbacks somewhat, and yes just charging through a breech or chokepoint like you can right now just ignoring siege fire will get you killed...it was probably meant to be this way from the beginning.....right now the only way to defend a keep is to drop off the walls with a larger zerg and just zerg them over, defense of any objective in this game right now is utterly pointless with how useless eige is currently and how OP Purge and Barrier are....

These changes to siege will be the best changes ZOS has ever made to ESO and will actually not only allow defense of objectives being viable, but small scale 4v4 and 6v6 at resources with siege fire from both sides and seeing who cna outflank who will be common place.

Yes playing with strategy and being forced to flank your opponents siege line instead of everyone just zerg stomping everything i think is a win-win.

I think these changes will be great, and i look forward to them...i look forward to the day that actually have a "high ground" defensive advantage will actually be a tactical advantage for a change instead of the current just zerg stomp everything...just my 2 cents

I want siege to help. I want a good group to set up defensive siege and use that advantage to beat me. I don't want them to set up siege, and than simply win because my group can't move, can't heal, can't sustain. Point and click to win is horrible gameplay for an action based mmo.

But you can move, heal, sustain if you avoid siege. Right now, you don't need to do anything but stack and purge. Now I'm not completely on board with 6 seconds of unpurgable debuffs. Perhaps numbers can be adjusted. But overall, I see some good things with these changes.

When pushing a choke in a keep, the whole point is it is a choke. if I can't move for shares, can't block or dodge for Stam reduction, can't heal for magica reduction and heal rebuffs, cannot purge these debuffs, what am I supposed to do? It's suicide and everyone knows it.

There's only a few spots siege can fire at from in a keep..A lot of it can't hit the same spot or spots near the choke point..You'll have to time when ya go in...and maybe not rush all in at once (As in half go in to draw fire then the other half rush in right afterwards when they're moving their weapon to hit the people who just ran in)

Going through a choke point thats well defended will be dangerous....compared to now where you just ignore it.

It is still extremely dangerous as is. Pushing into keeps you can put one siege on flag, one on opposite postern, one breach mid stairs, one top breach stairs, and two and the U that can all be set to bombard the breach. As is if defenders know what they are doing a group is usually annihilated on the breach or shortly after.

But most defenders would rather whine about ball groups and clamor for increased siege damage than watch what groups like Haxus do with un-buffed siege and a few ultis beneath oils.

Are you seriously trying to claim a breech is extremely dangerous right now for a Ball Group?

/facepalm

Against anyone who knows what they are doing, yes. Turns out when you work together as a team and employ basic tactics a heavily defensible position can be ... wait for it... easily defended.

You have a choke you can clog with siege and dump ultis on that your enemy MUST pass through. It's a defenders wet dream. That you don't recognize this is why I mostly don't trust your opinion in group play, as you clearly dont get even basic things like this.

Having personally defended keeps with my "Zerg" of 8-12 people precisely because of siege and convenient chokes, I just don't get what the hell you've going on about

The fact that your medium group successfuly defended a keep against larger numbers doesn't prouve anything. You simply faced disorganized pugs / groups / guilds. You didn't faced Vehemence.

I mean, sure. I think you sometimes forget Vehemence wasn't always this way. We didn't clamor for siege buffs and nerfs to group skills, etc., to beat the guilds and groups that were beating us: we learned from the groups that were winning, and learned to win ourselves. Bombing the breach with siege as backup has been extremely effective for us as a group, and it's something I remember learning from Crystalize. He used to go down on the mid-stairs, meatbag across the way and at the top, oils on the lip, and just pour DPS on people coming in the breach. It doesn't take a lot to break the purge/barrier spam of a group if you do it right, I've seen good raids melted when a well-timed leap or meteor broke up their cycle and they never recovered from the debuffs/oil/fire and subsequent damage.

I'm all kinds of fine with siege getting a buff. Eh, whatever. I can manage that. Sure, why not. But the buff amounts we're talking here are insane. The response to "spread out" is also kinda hilarious. Sure, I'll spread out my 20 people when running into a group of 40-50, that's gonna work out just fine. Surely, we won't be separated and dragged down by superior numbers except OF COURSE we will because that's the whole idea of an elite raid in this game: a collection of players that play together in such a way that their effectiveness is greater than the sum of all parts. Once you remove a group's ability to play as a team than you're not going to win outnumbered anymore.

It's funny that you talk about spreading out your numbers (24+ group) against a group larger than yours. Seriously, how many times a night do you face larger numbers against your group? If you face larger numbers, you SHOULD have a major disadvantage. Especially when fighting openfield. It is the same for small/medium group fighting your large group, we have a disadvantage facing you openfield. During keep battles, sieges should have a major impact into the war as it was intended before this game got released.

You fight in an area and people start deploying too many sieges against you? Spread out, move to a different location, use LoS or die. Simple enough.

GoS does it really well. Even with a 24men group, they rarely ball up. They fight with a certain distance between each other and they win against skilled groups. This behaviour will help them a ton when new siege changes get in place.

I'm at work so this will be fairly concise.

GoS balls up plenty. Believe me, I fight them enough, ask Rylana. Against groups like mine they have strats that involve spreading out, but they certainly recondense when they want to hit us hard, or against groups that don't have as much DPS as mine. Remember, spreading out is a survival tactic, not a winning one. Winning in a group of any size is the same: focused dps. In a small man it's sustaining till you burst down the enemy healer, in raids it's sustaining/scattering until you recondense to aoe bomb.

As to how many times I'm outnumbered, I'd say plenty. On Monday and Sunday of this week alone with 24 people I found myself fighting against 2-5x my number. I might have won at Aleswell too if not for lag, at the end there was simply no abilities going off, but until then we repelled groups upwards of 3x our size from the keeps and surrounding resources. On a regular night I find myself outnumbered pretty much anytime I hit a defended keep. If the people within the keep grouped up and used strategy I'd have a really tough time of it.

In the end that's why I'm really bothered by these changes. Bulb and I wanted to effect change on the Map, we wanted to wipe big groups, defend keeps, take territory. So we learned macro strategy, built our small group of players into a competitive raid and adapted to multiple patches and metas. And we are effective at all sizes. I logged on the other day to hear zone complaining about an AD ball group terrorizing glademist, all the usual about invincible spam monkeys. Went over and killed them with 8 people and a meatbag. What stopped the 30 other people there from doing exactly that? A lack of organization, know how or skill.

That's why this looks ugly to me. Gameplay mechanics aren't holding people back, there is no secret formula for success. But you and others in this thread talk about changes that will allow you to take on and defeat a group like mine and quite frankly you don't deserve to. If you want to beat a good guild, earn it. Build your group, learn strategy, time some stealth bombs. To everyone complaining you can't stop these "ball groups", good. You didn't build to beat them, they built themselves to beat you, and they're going to keep doing it until you stop complaining and decide to counter them.

Or the other option, which is to complain until ZoS changes the game so some randoms in a keep are competitive with a fully optimized and organized raid. And than what's the point at all?

As to me running around a keep for no reason, I'm game to see footage. I can't remember ever doing this unless I'm expecting incoming and am trying to keep my raid mobile.

In the end, siege should have w counter. Everything in the game has a counter. Snares, healing, debuffs. roots, damage, shields, siege damage, etc. It makes for a decent meta. High damage groups forgo shields to burn opponents, sustain groups adapt by swapping to ground based damage reduction and heavy CC, which can than be countered by negates and stationary siege, etc. Whatever siege mechanics are added simply must have counters, otherwise they become stupidly overpowered and give anyone with the numbers to run them a rediculous advantage.

Hell, you think keep takes are hard now, wait until an organized raid is defending a keep inner with a full siege deployment. It's going to be stupid, and the only way to take it from them will be ....

.....

wait for it....

... to stack bigger numbers yourself. Back to square *** one.

All this wall of text sounds pretty fluid and nice but in the end, there is only one solution that you suggest. You want people to "gid gud" at the game and to form their own organized 24men ballgroup to challenge yours.

Are we living in the same Cyrodiil ? Don't you see that the game can't support such gameplay at the moment ? First of all, ping spikes to 200ms just the fact that there are 40players on the screen (not even spamming abilities). Around a keep, it's even worse! Now you're saying that the only way that we should be able to counter a skilled organized group would be to accomplish the exact same gameplay and spike the server all the way up to 1200ms where CCs can't be broken, weapon bars can't be swapped, where alot of abilities such as streak, wrecking blow, leap, etc won't even register, where abilities such as Leap and Meteor can kill people with extreme falling damage, where people get rubberbanded all over the place?

No thank you. And don't get me that crap that this is not your problem if Zenimax aren't able to fix their game. WE have to aknowledge the fact that WE are going to deal with this for a while and WE have to take measures to counter it.

This being said, WE need a zerg buster that has three major objectives :

1) Spread ball groups
2) Help defending keep breaches
3) Give a chance to small/medium group at overwhelming larger groups

I understand that AOE cap and Dynamic Ultimate Regeneration are also huge factors but they are not as important as sieges during keep battles. And as Brian Wheeler said multiple times and I fully support his opinion even though it won't make everybody happy, sieges should be an important factor in Cyrodiil and right now, it is not.

So next time, maybe bring suggestions and tweaks regarding the changes brought in the main post instead of elaborating about how bad they are.

I feel like your issue of having high ping with only 40 people on screen and no zerg balls is a computer or internet issue on your end. Myself and many others only ever see any jump in ping when two or more blobs attack each other. That is it. I can have 100 people at a keep and it would be fine if there are no zerg balls. Additionally, I wonder if the times you are speaking of, when you hit 200 ping plus with 40 people on screen and no spamming of aoe, is occuring at the same time that 2 blobs on the other side of the map are fighting each other. That may be the case. For instance, a few nights ago in azuras i was at the home gate and was getting 200-250 oing because two ball groups were fighting at BRK.

I appreciate your concern when you say that it may be an internet or computer problem. I know what I'm talking about though. I play this game 4-5hours a day, more on weekend, and we have regular conversations about this problem with friends. We all experiment the same issues and we live on different sides of the planet.

The problem with the ping spiking to 200-300ms only with players around on the screen is relatively new. I've heard people saying in the forums that it may be due to the anti-bot system, who knows. It is still a thing. My suggestion here is to lower population cap and to reduce the number of campaigns to two. This will spread out large groups between two campaign instead of having them all on Azura.

The information was still irrelevant to the main point, which was when two organized groups face each other. I've talked about it only to illustrate how fragile are the servers. In the end, as much as I would like large groups vs large groups battle to be doable without too many problems, I don't think people like the 1.2k+ ping spikes that this playstyle cause everytime.

perhaps turn add-ons off to help. I know when I run things like master merchant in cyro I have issues so i always deactivate it. ANyway i digress. this is not the forum for that.

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO

I feel as though I am watching the death of this game by reading some of the replies in this thread. Rest in pieces, ESO.

Ghost-Shot

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO wrote: »

I feel as though I am watching the death of this game by reading some of the replies in this thread. Rest in pieces, ESO.

Elder Siege Online, GG ZOS.

Teargrants

I'm going to be super cereal here, these posts are like watching a train wreck.

frozywozy wrote: »

2) Send vampire nightblades with cloak inside to assassinate people using sieges on the breach

Each word here makes this sentence progressively stupider.

- Relying on vamp NBs in a hotly contested siege, cuz camo hunter/oil/fire siege is fun?
- Cloaking into a breach???? THROUGH THE CALTROPS/MINES/RUNES/FEAR TRAPS/SIEGE HITS?!
- Assassinate them on their siege? So, I kill one guy and.....no one will rez him, when he's in his own keep? OK??

frozywozy wrote: »

3) Separate your large group into smaller ones and go in between each siege volleys

In between siege volleys? Explain to me where the 'in between' is when there are 3+ oil cats alternately hitting a breach? Oil cats will be the most OP siege if these changes go through unmodified. As soon as 1 oil cat hits you group, all the other siege will start finding you.

frozywozy wrote: »

From what I've seen on the night of tuesday, you were running a medium group of 12 between bleakers and chalman mine and you were constantly rushing ones and twos (me included) and you farmed lower numbers on the chalman mine for a while. Not saying that you do it all the time but still you don't hesitate when you get a chance to get some easy AP.

Give me a break Frozn, I know you're not blind. There were easily upwards of 20+ reds that constantly came streaming out of chalamo pretty much as fast as we killed them and eventually overran us on the mine flag. You were right there in the middle of all of them on that flag and all of the other pushes, so don't play the fool. There was no "constantly rushing ones and twos" as you would like to claim.

With the 12 that we had in group, we weren't going to kid ourselves that we would get a siege off. The choices are either take the mine and try getting some good fights around it, or go on the north side and bait with siege in a much less defensible position.

ewhite106b16_ESO

I normally try to be more constructive, but this sort of thing is exactly why I left ESO. Zenimax is doing their damndest to appeal to the lowest denominator possible in terms of player skill in PVP. ESO closer to launch (the best version IMO despite balance issues) already had an excellent counter to zergs in the form of NO AOE CAPS. Taking advantage of this vs larger groups required skill on the part of the player, unlike seige which requires next to no player skill at all. The "improved" seige is only going to result in zergs spamming seige at one another - completely removing aoe caps is the way to go.

I don't get it Zenimax...why implement such a good combat system in Cyrodil then lag it like crazy post launch with elaborate lighting patches + elaborate AOE caps and skills tuned to encourage blob play? Now you're making seige so OP .....may as well remove class abilities altogether and just give players seige weapons. Why make what was such a great combat system in Beta/early post launch successively worse and less skilled, then replace it altogether in cyrodil with seige?

Nafirian

TheBull wrote: »

The more zerg guild leaders scream and continue to use the same ass backwards argument, the more affirming the changes incoming are what is needed.

Your sir are a special kind of someone.

Tower_Of_Shame

Nafirian wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

The more zerg guild leaders scream and continue to use the same ass backwards argument, the more affirming the changes incoming are what is needed.

Your sir a special kind of someone.

Turelus

Talcyndl wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

That said, aoe cap removals solves everything. Siege is boosted and not required for zerg balls. best of both worlds.

Removing AoE caps alone doesn't fix the Blobs. The Blobs will still have what I call Effective Damage Immunity. That results from three things unrelated to the AoE cap:

(1) Purge.
(2) "Smart" heals that automatically target low health allies along with spammable AoE Heals.
(3) Spammable high damage AoE that prevents any melee attacker from surviving inside the Blob for more than a second.

Now maybe it would give some 6 man groups a chance against larger numbers, but it wouldn't fix the underlying Effective Damage Immunity problem.

I disagree with that, right now because of the AoE cap 1 purge counters once siege hit. Without the AoE cap a group of 24 would need four purges per siege hit. This is going to burn resources much fast and it's much more likely that the second siege hit (assuming you're more than one guy with a siege) is going to hit someone already having damage/debuff.

The AoE cap and these siege changes alone won't be the only fix to make things really work ofc. but it's a good starting point.

bowmanz607

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

I normally try to be more constructive, but this sort of thing is exactly why I left ESO. Zenimax is doing their damndest to appeal to the lowest denominator possible in terms of player skill in PVP. ESO closer to launch (the best version IMO despite balance issues) already had an excellent counter to zergs in the form of NO AOE CAPS. Taking advantage of this vs larger groups required skill on the part of the player, unlike seige which requires next to no player skill at all. The "improved" seige is only going to result in zergs spamming seige at one another - completely removing aoe caps is the way to go.

I don't get it Zenimax...why implement such a good combat system in Cyrodil then lag it like crazy post launch with elaborate lighting patches + elaborate AOE caps and skills tuned to encourage blob play? Now you're making seige so OP .....may as well remove class abilities altogether and just give players seige weapons. Why make what was such a great combat system in Beta/early post launch successively worse and less skilled, then replace it altogether in cyrodil

Really get over yourself. Everyone know siege has a time and place. I would love to see a grip of 20 all stop and put aiege down while fighting another group of 20 who rush them. My money is on the latter. Moreover, I don't see a situation where 2 players are fighting 2 players in open world and just all say screw it let's siege each other. You are bejng over dramatic. Additionally, they implemented skills and to help deal with blobs, it just did not work as they thought it would. It happens get over it. They are actively working on changing things. How is the siege op? You know these are not final numbers. They introduced this to us so we could help. So we help the juggle the numbers some that is all. How dare siege have a large role in a war. How dare you have to actually fear getting hit by that gigantic ball of fire.

Xsorus

A lot of 24 man Zerg guilds seem to be upset in this post; it seems updating siege to be scary will be the death of the game; even though it was far scarier in the past and didn't seem to ruin the game... So no clue.. Maybe we should liste to the guilds causing the problems in the game right now...

Turelus

Xsorus wrote: »

A lot of 24 man Zerg guilds seem to be upset in this post; it seems updating siege to be scary will be the death of the game; even though it was far scarier in the past and didn't seem to ruin the game... So no clue.. Maybe we should liste to the guilds causing the problems in the game right now...

The way I understood the thread it was the smaller groups who were upset not the ones being called zergs. Hell my guild is called a zerg on these forums on a daily basis and our internal forums and TeamSpeak has been nothing but hype for these changes.

There are reservations (is that the right saying?) regarding the permanent meatbag effect though as everyone agrees that's going to become a mandatory weapon for every raid to have up in fights.

Satiar

Dan_Fazzyub17_ESO wrote: »

I feel as though I am watching the death of this game by reading some of the replies in this thread. Rest in pieces, ESO.

Wow, you commented on something that wasn't hating sorcs or buffing Dragonknights. Truly the times are dire.

Satiar

Bull, Xsorus, the level of hate you guys level at groups is just crazy. I don't know where it comes from or what spawns it, but apparently just being in a guild that runs more than your internal limit of players means our opinion is trash and not to be heard just by merit of who our friends are and who we run with. What even is that? We like to play in a group big enough to take on map objectives and fight similar minded groups, that's literally it. The stuff pouring out of you guys at people like me and my friends is straight up toxic.

Teargrants

Xsorus wrote: »

A lot of 24 man Zerg guilds seem to be upset in this post; it seems updating siege to be scary will be the death of the game; even though it was far scarier in the past and didn't seem to ruin the game... So no clue.. Maybe we should liste to the guilds causing the problems in the game right now...

I for one am glad that we have established "zergglings are bad", 24 man raids are "zerg guilds", "people in raid guilds are dumb and shouldn't be listened to".

Of course it logically follows that only people who run exclusively solo/smallman/no more than 8 know how hue game works. In fact, they are the only ones qualified to don the title "expert" in regards to how mass AvAvA PvP works and should be balanced.

Actually, wait no, most of the stuff in here has descended to this:


PS: Siege has not been 'far scarier in the past' than it will be if the proposed changes go through.

Xsorus

Satiar wrote: »

Bull, Xsorus, the level of hate you guys level at groups is just crazy. I don't know where it comes from or what spawns it, but apparently just being in a guild that runs more than your internal limit of players means our opinion is trash and not to be heard just by merit of who our friends are and who we run with. What even is that? We like to play in a group big enough to take on map objectives and fight similar minded groups, that's literally it. The stuff pouring out of you guys at people like me and my friends is straight up toxic.

Who says I hate groups? I dislike zergs pretending to be 1 group and who pretend all they do is take on map objectives when I've seen ve for example do nothing but farm a bunch of pugs; sorry if I think an organized group of 24 people farming a bunch of unorganized pugs is not skillful and the lowest form of pvp in the game. Esp when said player tells others to git gud while zerging around.

I also find it hilarious when there's talk of giving those pugs a chance against said Zerg; that said Zerg is rather upset about it

Teargrants wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

A lot of 24 man Zerg guilds seem to be upset in this post; it seems updating siege to be scary will be the death of the game; even though it was far scarier in the past and didn't seem to ruin the game... So no clue.. Maybe we should liste to the guilds causing the problems in the game right now...

I for one am glad that we have established "zergglings are bad", 24 man raids are "zerg guilds", "people in raid guilds are dumb and shouldn't be listened to".

Of course it logically follows that only people who run exclusively solo/smallman/no more than 8 know how hue game works. In fact, they are the only ones qualified to don the title "expert" in regards to how mass AvAvA PvP works and should be balanced.

Actually, wait no, most of the stuff in here has descended to this:


PS: Siege has not been 'far scarier in the past' than it will be if the proposed changes go through.

I've yet to see anything in this thread that would change anything we've established so far about Zerg guilds like VE for example.

For example the fact that you think siege hasn't been far scarier in the past.

In the past siege had a 65% snare that was unbreakable and couldn't be purged along with a stackable healing debuff that meant eating 2 hits from a meatbag was a 100% healing debuff... It was basically death once you got caught by the snare cause it meant you would eat constant meatbags reducing your healing to zero. As scary as these changes are for groups they still didn't result in that nasty of a snare and that nasty of a heal debuff.

So in closing if you find these siege changes to harsh or to much of a problem might I suggest you

Git gud.

Sanct16

@Teargrants

Stop making sense. Please don't question any of the following facts:
- Big groups can't use siege.
- Breaches can only be sieged from inside the keep
- If you go into a breach 1 by 1 the sieges won't hurt you
- unpurgeable oil catas that drain your stamina are a great idea
- using siege rather than actual skills is fun and interactive gameplay
- the only people complaining about this change are people running in 24 man raids

Lorkhan

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Changing AP gain rates are in the books to get more AP for smaller groups than larger groups. Not dramatically punishing for super large groups mind you, but really giving a boost to the smaller groups out there.

what about solo players?

Lorkhan

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Changing AP gain rates are in the books to get more AP for smaller groups than larger groups. Not dramatically punishing for super large groups mind you, but really giving a boost to the smaller groups out there.

what about solo players?

Lorkhan

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Changing AP gain rates are in the books to get more AP for smaller groups than larger groups. Not dramatically punishing for super large groups mind you, but really giving a boost to the smaller groups out there.

what about solo players?

Septimus_Magna

frozywozy wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

These sweeping changes aren't the kind of thing that should be pushed at once, it needs to be done incrementally to allow fine tuning. Let's look at some of this:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Battlespirit did indeed change the value of damage from Siege weapons, which we are looking to correct with these changes.

- 30% dmg buff on top of removing the Battle Spirit debuff from siege dmg equates to siege doing 260% more dmg than on Live. Normal Fire Balistas alone will do 13k+ dmg on the initial hit + almost that much on the next tick. That's already enough to kill most people in Cyrodiil if they don't get it purged off immediately. We should all know what this means for Cold Stone Trebs, which will probably actually be one shotting ppl.

- Unpurgable status effects. Unpurgable disease is insane, there's a reason heal debuff stacking was removed. This change falls into a similar vein. What's this going to encourage groups to do? RUN BIGGER BY STACKING MOAR HEALERS TO HEAL THROUGH DISEASE.

- Flat value Magicka/Stamina dmg. Instant 5k resource loss is particularly stacked against Magicka builds. As Brian already pointed out, Oil Cats take an instant 5k Stam, while Lightning Balistas take 2.5k, then another 2.5k on the next tick. Already here, you can hit peoples Stam instantly twice as hard. This is compounded when you hit Magicka builds who don't have more than 10-15k Stam to begin with. 2-3 concurrent Oil Cat hits, and a Mag build is stuck + snared, any CC + a fire siege hit and they just sit there watching their toon die. Stam builds would still be able to CC break and dodge roll out.

Of course, predictably, this thread is full of people who either didn't think about this or think that precisely this is healthy for competitive PvP somehow. If you think this siege buff is going to be even remotely like the siege buff of 1.6, you're very wrong. This time it's not just a siege dmg increase, it's compounded by us now having Cold Harbor siege, by us now having 30% less healing, by us now having unpurgable heal debuff siege, and by us now having unpurgable snare + stam dmg siege.

I dont see how this will affect smaller/spread groups, its not like you have a big chance of hitting a couple people who are spread out and dont stay locked on siege.

As for the resource reduction numbers I definitely agree, 5k stam loss will restrict magicka builds to a single break-free, 2.5k stam reduction would seem fair to me. Either that or make it scale off the resource pool, for example 15-25% stam/mag reduction. The most important thing is that this effect should not be reapplied until the 6 sec snare duration has ended.

The (un)purgeable healing debuff is another difficult matter, in my opinion there are 3 options.
Option 1: unpurgeable, with a relative small healing debuff value, something like 20-30%.
Option 2: purgeable with an average healing debuff value, something like 40-60% with increased cost for eff. purge.
Option 3: purgeable, with a relative high healing debuff value, something like 50-75% with current cost for eff. purge.

Organized groups will run eff. purge anyway so I think the best way to go is to increase the cost significantly and give it a different effect.

Regarding Purge, increasing the cost, decreasing the amount of players it affects and every similar tweaks change nothing. It only encourages people to have more people running purge, to spam it more, creating more calculations for the server and decreasing server performances even more.

True, option 1 would probably be the least harmful regarding server performance.

The goal of these siege changes seem focused towards splitting up large groups, making siege effects unpurgeable would make it more dangerous to run in a large group because you become the target of all the counter siege.

Lorkhan

siege changes tl'dr: it will be harder to take a keep, easier to defend it

Darlgon

Reading through the thread, not just reading the Wheeler comments...

Deltia wrote: »

I think these are interesting changes that need to be tested prior to implementation. Lowbie PvP the only way to really kill a large group is with siege or pure numbers. If you want to "counter zerg" maybe this will help. Image snaring a group of 24, healing debuff, and zapping their magic. That large group is much easier to fight with less healing and healers with zero magicka.I've been on both sides of the zerg and I hope we get on the PTS to test this concept.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einsten

If we, as community, wish to disincentives zergs, ZOS must try something different, anything really. Is this the fix? I don't know, but it's worthy pursing different options.

Are you.. INSANE? Turn that around.. a zerg of 2 24 man raids drops that on 10 people defending a keep. They die in seconds.. grtz zerglings on a shiney new keep.

RIP the dream of Chalmo.

maxjapank

Darlgon wrote: »

Reading through the thread, not just reading the Wheeler comments...

Deltia wrote: »

I think these are interesting changes that need to be tested prior to implementation. Lowbie PvP the only way to really kill a large group is with siege or pure numbers. If you want to "counter zerg" maybe this will help. Image snaring a group of 24, healing debuff, and zapping their magic. That large group is much easier to fight with less healing and healers with zero magicka.I've been on both sides of the zerg and I hope we get on the PTS to test this concept.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einsten

If we, as community, wish to disincentives zergs, ZOS must try something different, anything really. Is this the fix? I don't know, but it's worthy pursing different options.

Are you.. INSANE? Turn that around.. a zerg of 2 24 man raids drops that on 10 people defending a keep. They die in seconds.. grtz zerglings on a shiney new keep.

RIP the dream of Chalmo.

Insane is thinking that 10 people should have a chance defending against 48 players. But you know what? You might have a better chance with these new changes than you would now. Not much. But at least a little.

Darlgon

Catching up on this thread.. in case no one answered you in the 24ish pages...

driosketch wrote: »

Okay someone explain to me how non purgable meat bags favors numbers? Often I have found myself dending keeps against a larger seige group and watching as they shrug off my counter siege. I've also been on the reverse, droping purifying ritual and a breath between reloads. As a defender, with less room to place seige, this is better. (And before anyone says it, it is a bit easier to hit players on the ground below than up on the wall.) A small group could also decimate a zergball rushing through a breach with this change.

I guess a large number of spread out players could slaughter a group of players stacked in a train spamming AoE. But that would require smarter play on the former's part, so I don't have an issue with that.

For a 3-5 player gank group vs. a dozen or fewer, the seige is too slow to be an issue.

Bottom line, this doesn't hurt small groups, it hurts the balls.

@driosketch

If you think 3-5 as a small group.. you must have not played in Cyro since Beta. It is indeed a gank squad, useful to take out stragglers then to either Streak away to infinity or be crushed by the group when they come back to rez the dead.

Picture 12 defenders, at BRK, when Arrius gets 20 seige and flags. They arrive from their ride, and 36 attackers have already setup inside the keep. AS THEY try to cross the courtyard, which has already been cleared of guards, they get hit with

Meatbag. six of them for 4420, the other six for 2210.. and all of them have an unpurgable debuff to healing.
Next, a oil catapult, six for 3400 ... and the rest for 1700, plus, taking 5000 stamina from ALL.
Healing springs, is cast, but already debuffed to hit only six of them at half power, heals six for 1200, and the rest for nothing.
Next a fire treb, six for 13260 and all of them for three ticks of 6600. IF unpurgable, they ALL get hit for 19820.

Thats.. all of them hit with 22730 dmg. If they got unlucky on all three, they were hit for 40900.

How many do you think made it more than three hits?

Now.. turn that around.. 24 players at BRK, when Arrius flags with 20 seige. When they arrive at BRK, they find most of the 12 attackers are using two Stone trebs. As such, say they actually breached the outer... without man power to put three seige on the doors, they are all on the inner.

The 24 man, runs inside, unchallenged,

THEY set up a Meatbag, Oil Cat and Fire treb...

See where this would end up?

But, for arguments sake, lets say the 12 attackers did indeed set up Meatbag, Oil Cat and Fire Treb on courtyard and had it manned,, slowing down the keep take.

Meatbag. six of them for 4420, the other 18 for 2210.. and all of them have an unpurgable debuff to healing.
Next, a oil catapult, six for 3400 ... and the rest for 1700, plus, taking 5000 stamina from ALL.
Healing springs, is cast, but already debuffed to hit only six of them at half power, heals six for 1200, and the rest for nothing.
Next a fire treb, six for 13260 and all of them for three ticks of 6600. IF unpurgable, they ALL get hit for 19820.

Thats.. all of them hit with 22730 dmg. If they got unlucky on all three, they were hit for 40900. Except, the chances of them being the unlucky three decreases, because they are a group of 24, instead of 12.

How does this change benefit smaller groups again?

Darlgon

Talcyndl wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Group up? Purge purge purge? Maneuvers? Purge purge purge? If this is you "squad". This is intended to affect you adversely.

Don't forget...

Charge Prox Det.

Move into enemies.

Spam Steel Tornado.



Yes, this change is clearly intended to negatively impact those groups. Personally, I approve of that (speaking as someone who has run with some very good Blobs).

The play style is mostly mindless, and the lag impact is pretty obvious.

Trying to remember.. Purge clears Lag, Prox Det AND Steel Tornado spam..

COOL, no wonder its OP.

Sharee

Darlgon wrote: »

Picture 12 defenders, at BRK, when Arrius gets 20 seige and flags. They arrive from their ride, and 36 attackers have already setup inside the keep. AS THEY try to cross the courtyard, which has already been cleared of guards, they get hit with...

Keep in mind that the keeps will be changed as well. If i recall correctly, the goal is that a when a full siege is started against a keep that is completely undefended, it should take at least 10 minutes to complete the capture. Today, it is under 5 minutes from flag to cap. This change should give defenders more time to arrive and take up defensive positions.

(As a side note, it would be nice if keeps didn't only come on fire when the wall is at 50% already - or at least make inner keep invulnerable to damage while outer wall still stands)

Darlgon

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

rdbrown1987 wrote: »

see i don't think it's the devs fault i think they want this game to good but they've the fatcats behind them saying make this game more zergy, more zergs = more people, more people = more money to line my pockets.

The money people would happily see all the PvP focused players leave if that's the price of not annoying the PvE population. The subscriber/paying player numbers are HEAVILY skewed toward PvE.

agrees

Proof?

PVE updates: Lower Crag, Upper Crag, Orsinium, Theives Guild/Elsewhyre, Dark Brotherhood/Black Marsh.

PVP update, (that was really a PVE update in PVP): IC

Not that the PVE in me does not want to see them.. but.. the PVPer may have had to take his checkbook and leave.

Erondil

Darlgon wrote: »

Catching up on this thread.. in case no one answered you in the 24ish pages...

driosketch wrote: »

Okay someone explain to me how non purgable meat bags favors numbers? Often I have found myself dending keeps against a larger seige group and watching as they shrug off my counter siege. I've also been on the reverse, droping purifying ritual and a breath between reloads. As a defender, with less room to place seige, this is better. (And before anyone says it, it is a bit easier to hit players on the ground below than up on the wall.) A small group could also decimate a zergball rushing through a breach with this change.

I guess a large number of spread out players could slaughter a group of players stacked in a train spamming AoE. But that would require smarter play on the former's part, so I don't have an issue with that.

For a 3-5 player gank group vs. a dozen or fewer, the seige is too slow to be an issue.

Bottom line, this doesn't hurt small groups, it hurts the balls.

@driosketch

If you think 3-5 as a small group.. you must have not played in Cyro since Beta. It is indeed a gank squad, useful to take out stragglers then to either Streak away to infinity or be crushed by the group when they come back to rez the dead.

Picture 12 defenders, at BRK, when Arrius gets 20 seige and flags. They arrive from their ride, and 36 attackers have already setup inside the keep. AS THEY try to cross the courtyard, which has already been cleared of guards, they get hit with

Meatbag. six of them for 4420, the other six for 2210.. and all of them have an unpurgable debuff to healing.
Next, a oil catapult, six for 3400 ... and the rest for 1700, plus, taking 5000 stamina from ALL.
Healing springs, is cast, but already debuffed to hit only six of them at half power, heals six for 1200, and the rest for nothing.
Next a fire treb, six for 13260 and all of them for three ticks of 6600. IF unpurgable, they ALL get hit for 19820.

Thats.. all of them hit with 22730 dmg. If they got unlucky on all three, they were hit for 40900.

How many do you think made it more than three hits?

Now.. turn that around.. 24 players at BRK, when Arrius flags with 20 seige. When they arrive at BRK, they find most of the 12 attackers are using two Stone trebs. As such, say they actually breached the outer... without man power to put three seige on the doors, they are all on the inner.

The 24 man, runs inside, unchallenged,

THEY set up a Meatbag, Oil Cat and Fire treb...

See where this would end up?

But, for arguments sake, lets say the 12 attackers did indeed set up Meatbag, Oil Cat and Fire Treb on courtyard and had it manned,, slowing down the keep take.

Meatbag. six of them for 4420, the other 18 for 2210.. and all of them have an unpurgable debuff to healing.
Next, a oil catapult, six for 3400 ... and the rest for 1700, plus, taking 5000 stamina from ALL.
Healing springs, is cast, but already debuffed to hit only six of them at half power, heals six for 1200, and the rest for nothing.
Next a fire treb, six for 13260 and all of them for three ticks of 6600. IF unpurgable, they ALL get hit for 19820.

Thats.. all of them hit with 22730 dmg. If they got unlucky on all three, they were hit for 40900. Except, the chances of them being the unlucky three decreases, because they are a group of 24, instead of 12.

How does this change benefit smaller groups again?

Well explained also this change helps to defend agaisnt higher numbers only the first 30 seconds of fight, as soon as the fight last a bit longer and some attackers will manage to go through the breach, they will put sieges and rip the small group of defenders, in 20 seconds (its not as much the case now if the small group is good and coordinated).
Basically :
-More defenders than attackers : benefits the biggest group
-More attackers than defenders : benefits defenders for the first wave maybe, IF attackers are pugs. I can tell you an decent organized group wont die because of that if they are outnumbering their ennemies. After the first wave, will benefit the biggest group, eg attackers (even if they're pugs).

Darlgon

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

zerosingularity wrote: »

Y'all need to chill. These changes may not fix PvP, dunno if anything ever will. What they do add though is a lot more dynamic to siege, which was horribly lacking. Now you will see some siege engines that probably 90% of PvPers don't even know about. Increasing the damage is also very much needed, when someone can face-tank a trebuchet like it is nothing, you know siege is too weak. I look forward to seeing how these changes shake up the PvP META we have.

Also,

#REMOVEAOECAPS

Siege never had aoe caps in the first place. Guess why they removed ground oil, it was a succesfull zergbuster and didnt benefit the masses as much.

@johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO

Yes, it did and does, the 6/24/30 rule.