Why Magicka Templars Suck in PvP

zornyan

bikerangelo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Certain skills you can't animation cancel or are too awkward to do properly.
Most are in the Templar skill lines lol.

Reason for most of the GCD for charges was to combat the numerous bots running around at launch.
Bots used templars because of access to jabs, they ran around farming mobs and mats to flood the markets.

There was definitely pvp aspects to keeping the GCD on Templar charge, but it needs revisions .

Elude > most shields as a Templar. It replaces our lost blinding flashes skill.
Consider using it if you want a little survivability in your build, though the tradeoff is stamina.

I've used shuffle before, but I like actually dodging when I can. especially if I can avoid a frag or a gap closer. I'd rather run the risk of actually dodging attacks as opposed to a 20% chance.
On a side note, and this has probably been mentioned before, the stamina nerf to dodge rolling and break free hurt the magicka classes worse than stamina classes, especially magicka templars. Still don't know why that hasn't been changed back, dodge rolling never hurt anyone.

I dunno, I think the opposite.

My magicka imperial templar has 15k stam with tri stat food, which is purely for roll dodge, block and break free.

My stamplar has 36k stamina, but that has to dps, heal, and do all the above. So every single block and dodge is eating into your main resource pool.

Run a stam user out of stam and their a sitting duck that can't even hit you, run a magicka user out of stam and they can still dps, heal and use escape skills.

Baconlad

Dark flare is worse than snipe for travel time, you can cast a medium attack, canceled with a another skill, and light attack again before flare hits...he was not macroing, just taking advantage of really long travel times

bikerangelo

Baconlad wrote: »

Dark flare is worse than snipe for travel time, you can cast a medium attack, canceled with a another skill, and light attack again before flare hits...he was not macroing, just taking advantage of really long travel times

Pretty much what he said. It's a great start to a rotation and has a cast time similar to wrecking blow, however it's much easier to dodge roll out of them. The further you are away from a target, the longer the travel time, so he probably had time to gap close, light attack, then go in to punctering sweep or something, probably before the dark flare even hit you.

zornyan wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Certain skills you can't animation cancel or are too awkward to do properly.
Most are in the Templar skill lines lol.

Reason for most of the GCD for charges was to combat the numerous bots running around at launch.
Bots used templars because of access to jabs, they ran around farming mobs and mats to flood the markets.

There was definitely pvp aspects to keeping the GCD on Templar charge, but it needs revisions .

Elude > most shields as a Templar. It replaces our lost blinding flashes skill.
Consider using it if you want a little survivability in your build, though the tradeoff is stamina.

I've used shuffle before, but I like actually dodging when I can. especially if I can avoid a frag or a gap closer. I'd rather run the risk of actually dodging attacks as opposed to a 20% chance.
On a side note, and this has probably been mentioned before, the stamina nerf to dodge rolling and break free hurt the magicka classes worse than stamina classes, especially magicka templars. Still don't know why that hasn't been changed back, dodge rolling never hurt anyone.

I dunno, I think the opposite.

My magicka imperial templar has 15k stam with tri stat food, which is purely for roll dodge, block and break free.

My stamplar has 36k stamina, but that has to dps, heal, and do all the above. So every single block and dodge is eating into your main resource pool.

Run a stam user out of stam and their a sitting duck that can't even hit you, run a magicka user out of stam and they can still dps, heal and use escape skills.

I get CC'd far too often to agree with that, but I guess it caters to different playstyles. Also, I use tristat drinks for a pretty decent regen sustain since I dual wield for extra spell damage.

Anazasi

what? are you being serious?

josh.lackey_ESO

I'd like to see the size of Blazing Shield scale off Magicka rather than off health. Either a base amount that scales with spell damage and max magicka like normal spells, or a new and interesting mechanic where it's size is actually a percentage of your max magicka rather than max health. I think the short duration is a reasonable deterrant to shield stacking (I don't want to see Templar become the new Sorc). But in its current form, it's useless to anything but max health builds.

I am also under the impression that Radiant Ward is bugged. When I first looked it at, I assumed it would give a bonus shield size in the way the Structured Entropy gives Max Health or Inner Light gives Max Magicka. But instead, it's 5% for all ranks. I think it should be like this:

Rank I - 5% increased shield size per enemy hit with activation AoE
Rank II - 6% increased shield size per enemy hit with activation AoE
Rank III - 7% increased shield size per enemy hit with activation AoE
Rank IV - 8% increased shield size per enemy hit with activation AoE

When you consider Radiant Ward is a little cheaper to boot, suddenly it's a solid option for both stamina dps templars and tank templars.

Healing Ritual: since this is a general Templar thread, I am also under the impression that Ritual of Rebirth is similarly bugged. I thought it was a .25 sec cast time reduction (12.5%) per rank (with Rank 1 shown as .3 on the tooltip as as the result of rounding.) But no, it's a one-time benefit. I think it should be like this:

Rank I - 1.75 sec (1.7 on tooltip)
Rank II - 1.5 sec (1.5 on tooltip)
Rank III - 1.25 sec (1.3 on tooltip)
Rank IV - 1 sec (1 on tooltip)

Aurora Javelin Seems like a poor-man's Flame Reach at this point. It has no DoT and shorter range. It needs some love, I am not sure what to suggest. A root? We don't have one of those. Maybe extend Aurora Javelin's range to 28m in addition to increased damage at range?

Dark Flare's animation is just goofy. Why ZOS, why? That said, it hits SO HARD. If you find yourself unable to avoid it somehow (e.g. you are also a magicka templar) it might just wreck you -- but you are equally likely to wreck yourself because so many people reflect projectiles. Solar Barrage is actually really good, though. It's got an 8 meter radius -- 2m more than Impulse! (But still 3m less than Steel Tornado.) What is especially good about it is that you get Empower even if you don't hit anything (and Minor Sorcery with passives). I usually weave in Entropy with Might of the Guild to keep my hands glowing orange, but sometimes you need Empower some other way (e.g. Solar Barrage while you are LoS or out of range, then move in and drop an empowered Meteor.)

I definitely feel that in PvP, my magicka Templar is weaker than my magicka Nightblade or magicka Sorcerer. That said, my magicka Templar is splendid at grinding through PvE content.

bikerangelo

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Aurora Javelin Seems like a poor-man's Flame Reach at this point. It has no DoT and shorter range. It needs some love, I am not sure what to suggest. A root? We don't have one of those. Maybe extend Aurora Javelin's range to 28m in addition to increased damage at range?

Dark Flare's animation is just goofy. Why ZOS, why? That said, it hits SO HARD. If you find yourself unable to avoid it somehow (e.g. you are also a magicka templar) it might just wreck you -- but you are equally likely to wreck yourself because so many people reflect projectiles. Solar Barrage is actually really good, though. It's got an 8 meter radius -- 2m more than Impulse! (But still 3m less than Steel Tornado.) What is especially good about it is that you get Empower even if you don't hit anything (and Minor Sorcery with passives). I usually weave in Entropy with Might of the Guild to keep my hands glowing orange, but sometimes you need Empower some other way (e.g. Solar Barrage while you are LoS or out of range, then move in and drop an empowered Meteor.)

I definitely feel that in PvP, my magicka Templar is weaker than my magicka Nightblade or magicka Sorcerer. That said, my magicka Templar is splendid at grinding through PvE content.

I agree mostly, although Aurora Javelin has gotten a ton of love for stamplars. I'd much rather use dark flare for a larger DoT and Defile than a very weak knockback. Magic temps spam enough spears as it is, we probably don't need javelin spammers.

Also, one of two things should change with dark flare. Either make it instant cast and keep the travel path, or keep the cast time and make the travel path linear like Frags. I can easily dodge a hard cast frag, so a hard cast dark flare shouldn't be any different once you recognize the animation.

And yes, Templars are great at PvE, solely because of their sustain and survivability. Burst DPS isn't really required from temps, although crit heals go a long way. If this class really wasn't designed for solo PvP, that's fine, I'm ok with having 2 different characters for PvP with one designed for small group or solo play and another designed for utility with a medium sized group.

Akinos

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

Aurora Javelin Seems like a poor-man's Flame Reach at this point. It has no DoT and shorter range. It needs some love, I am not sure what to suggest. A root? We don't have one of those. Maybe extend Aurora Javelin's range to 28m in addition to increased damage at range?[/b]

I disagree about aurora javelin being the poor man's flame reach.

Aurora does more damage flame reach. ALOT more then thrown from max distance, I'm talking upwards of 8k crits without burning light proc. Flame reach might be able to hit pretty hard when you stack elemental damage, but since templars only get 1 other fire skill, it's a waste to put CP into elemental damage. Thaumaturge is better for a magicka templar.

The dot on flame reach does laughable, almost unnoticeable damage, and that's when it doesn't get purged/purified off.

The extra range isn't that useful either imo, it just makes it so you have to run further to get into ranged to use other skills when chasing people down.

I would like to see the ranged on javelin increased though, or some other effect other then just pure range dependant damage.

Brrrofski

I've not long got my templar to vr16 and got all my gear to legendary. I love it in pvp. Great in group play and I can solo and do 1vX pretty good too. I am vamp on mine which is a key part to my play.

With a 32k magica pool, 1950ish recovery. 39% crit and 2100ish unbuffed spell damage, I'm doing fine. Elusive mist and breath of life makes you incredibly tanky. Granted, I have to look outside templar trees for ultimates, but synergysing ice comet or bar swarm with some templar skills can take people down efficiently. Especially using purifying light. Combine that with vampire's bane, bat swarm/ice comet and some sweeps and they take a lot of damage. While damage isn't as high as my sorc, I can do plenty while retaining high survivability.

But, I think I'd struggle without vamp on it. Lack of ultimates and movement speed would be an real issue. I'm a breton using nirhoned swords, so with 21k spell resist fire isn't so much of an issue. Barely anyone uses camo hunter on xbox and dawnbreaker isn't all instant damage so I can negate the dot with bol. It does still hire though.

I have a vr16 mag temp, stam Dk and mag sorc and can honestly say I enjoy my temp the most by far. I've stated levelling a vamp mag NB though, and I have a feeling that might jump above my templar.

k2blader

Minno wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Can I throw this out there for folks who know how to play templar:

Last night a templar was hitting me for ~11k with Dark Flare which also greatly reduces my ability to heal (which isn't good to begin with). He was also hitting me within the same second with 4 other skills. Anyway it kind of surprised me as I often see threads where folks say magicka templars are bad, but this guy seemed to be doing something right. Would a build like that trade healing/survivability to do such high damage?

Its called MACROS. Sadly, zeni encourages this kind of exploit which basically breaks the game and also a minor source of lags and crashes.

I was going to ask about that but didn't feel like being blasted into the stratosphere by people telling me macros don't exist or are never used and to L2P.

What were the other skills used?
You can animation cancel dark flare (similar to heavy attack).

But I said in this thread or another thread, many of the Templar skills are awkward to animation cancel.
But it may be possible, this guy mastered his rotation.

Next time, use a spell interupt and see if he reacts. If he used a macro, it should mess up his pvp mojo.

Sorry, I forget. I really should've taken a screenshot. I figured he probably was animation cancelling to good effect. Thanks for the suggestion which I'll try to do in the future if I see my attacker (this guy likes to smack folks from behind, lol).

[edit] Wanted to add I actually think it was a neat example of templars being viable. Makes me want to try one, though I can't really abide the thought of leveling another character..

bikerangelo

Update**

After running in sewers for a bit with a NB and DK friend, we found it much easier to take on larger groups with my templar playing a utility / burst dps / occassional CC roll. In most skirmishes against groups larger than ours, I'd stack behind the DK then charge a member in the back of their group while our NB burst him down. Depending on if our DK was taking too much pressure, I'd either toss shards and begin sweep spamming, or pop a purify / bubble. The skill of the others players still dictates how effective we can be, but it definitely restored my confidence in the templar class.

On a smaller scale, such as 1v1 / 1vX or 2vX, I think templars will still struggle more than other classes. I saw a thread somewhere that was polling on whether Blinding Flashes should replace Total Dark (eclipse). Please make this happen, ZOS.

Minno

bikerangelo wrote: »

Update**

After running in sewers for a bit with a NB and DK friend, we found it much easier to take on larger groups with my templar playing a utility / burst dps / occassional CC roll. In most skirmishes against groups larger than ours, I'd stack behind the DK then charge a member in the back of their group while our NB burst him down. Depending on if our DK was taking too much pressure, I'd either toss shards and begin sweep spamming, or pop a purify / bubble. The skill of the others players still dictates how effective we can be, but it definitely restored my confidence in the templar class.

On a smaller scale, such as 1v1 / 1vX or 2vX, I think templars will still struggle more than other classes. I saw a thread somewhere that was polling on whether Blinding Flashes should replace Total Dark (eclipse). Please make this happen, ZOS.

The dmg morph of eclipse (not total dark) still applies the time bomb even if the CC immunity was granted to the player.

On a magicka build, this can do extra dmg to multiple players and add burst dmg while doubling as a reflect/sorc fear spell.

I'd recommend using it if don't have access to prox det.

Ashamray

The dmg morph of eclipse (not total dark) still applies the time bomb even if the CC immunity was granted to the player.

On a magicka build, this can do extra dmg to multiple players and add burst dmg while doubling as a reflect/sorc fear spell.

Both morphs apply time bomb on target with CC-immunity. It's damage is low and can't be useful for burst.

Minno

Ashamray wrote: »

The dmg morph of eclipse (not total dark) still applies the time bomb even if the CC immunity was granted to the player.

On a magicka build, this can do extra dmg to multiple players and add burst dmg while doubling as a reflect/sorc fear spell.

Both morphs apply time bomb on target with CC-immunity. It's damage is low and can't be useful for burst.

Meant if used when engaging more than 1 player and you don't have access to prox det yet.
It's ability to reflect make its decent to use when the times right.

It's not the best but decent situationally or if you have to.

eliisra

bikerangelo wrote: »

Update**

After running in sewers for a bit with a NB and DK friend, we found it much easier to take on larger groups with my templar playing a utility / burst dps / occassional CC roll. In most skirmishes against groups larger than ours, I'd stack behind the DK then charge a member in the back of their group while our NB burst him down. Depending on if our DK was taking too much pressure, I'd either toss shards and begin sweep spamming, or pop a purify / bubble. The skill of the others players still dictates how effective we can be, but it definitely restored my confidence in the templar class.

On a smaller scale, such as 1v1 / 1vX or 2vX, I think templars will still struggle more than other classes. I saw a thread somewhere that was polling on whether Blinding Flashes should replace Total Dark (eclipse). Please make this happen, ZOS.

Yeah templars are great for medium to large groups. But 1v1, 2v2 or even 3v3, anything that small scale, you're just screwed right now. Why there's 0 people playing templar in the duelling community. Which, imo means they're not "fine".

All it takes is 2 stamina players focusing you when small scaling and poff dead. You have no defences against it at all, after nerf to block, shields and removal of Blinding Flashes. No tools to mitigate physical dmg. No mobility. No roots. No way to kite or escape. Try soaking, cleansing and out-healing animation cancelled Surprise Attacks and 12-15k Wrecking Blows, while breaking cc every 7 sec, it's just not possible when you cant kite.

In larger groups you get mobility, cc and even healing/shields from others, so it's np. You can stand in sorc mines while healing, your buddie gives you Retreating Maneuvre and if you get focused the DK can drop Fossilize on their butts. But not everyone wants to play that way, always depending on other classes.

Turtl3Lov3

Bringing back flashes would majorly help Templars given that since DKs have such a major defense skill like wings, NBs have cloak, and Sorcs have hardened ward/streak.

Ima just leave this here.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/232610/flashes-or-radiant-destruction#latest]

Minno

Turtl3Lov3 wrote: »

Bringing back flashes would majorly help Templars given that since DKs have such a major defense skill like wings, NBs have cloak, and Sorcs have hardened ward/streak.

Ima just leave this here.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/232610/flashes-or-radiant-destruction#latest]

Completely agree, we need flashes back.
But still retain some sort of reflect spell.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Here's why Templars in general and Dragon Knights as a bonus suck so bad in pvp. NB and Sorcs cried about them for over a year about how OP they were and ZOS decided "Hey lets give into the QQ and nerf DKs and Temps and make them nearly to totally useless and lets not stop there but make them even useless in PvE too."

And with one fell update Sorcs and NBs got there wish. NBs are the new META and DKs and Temps are a shadow of them former selves.

But doesn't mean give up the fight for DKs and Temps maybe down but they are never gonna be out.

Springt-Über-Zwerge

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Here's why Templars in general and Dragon Knights as a bonus suck so bad in pvp. NB and Sorcs cried about them for over a year about how OP they were and ZOS decided "Hey lets give into the QQ and nerf DKs and Temps and make them nearly to totally useless and lets not stop there but make them even useless in PvE too."

And with one fell update Sorcs and NBs got there wish. NBs are the new META and DKs and Temps are a shadow of them former selves.

But doesn't mean give up the fight for DKs and Temps maybe down but they are never gonna be out.

I wouldnt be that sure maybe zenimax accidently deletes templars one day when they "buff" them again

driosketch

bikerangelo wrote: »

Spear shards is a bad AoE, acts like a no-scope CC that doesn't do much damage, and is only useful for trying to find stealthed players. The only reason it'd be used would be for a group with stamina builds who can synergize off the shards, which is why templars are a better class for PvE dungeon runs.

I feel you are severely underestimating the blazing spear morph here. I use it as my primary cc for 1v1 and to disrupt groups. I do use an mmo mouse though, so I'm able to move easily while rapid casting if that makes a difference.

Tankqull

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Can I throw this out there for folks who know how to play templar:

Last night a templar was hitting me for ~11k with Dark Flare which also greatly reduces my ability to heal (which isn't good to begin with). He was also hitting me within the same second with 4 other skills. Anyway it kind of surprised me as I often see threads where folks say magicka templars are bad, but this guy seemed to be doing something right. Would a build like that trade healing/survivability to do such high damage?

Its called MACROS. Sadly, zeni encourages this kind of exploit which basically breaks the game and also a minor source of lags and crashes.

Edit: Animation canceling as well.

nope its called projectile of slomo...
temp projectiles are so freakin slow that you can cook a coffey whiele watching them travel to your target who ever is hit by a darkflare not comming from behind while playing in 1. person should definatly work on his or her overwiew.
and because of that super slow speed you can cast several other attacks e.g. darkflare -> vampirebane/reflectivelight -> firestaff heavy attack -> toppling charge -> light attack -> jabs/radiant light and have all impact at the same time no macro needed at all...

Cathexis

I don't doubt you have made a lot of valuable points. Just wanted to say that when my stam sorc gets paired with any kind of templar we are an unstoppable steamrolling machine.

bikerangelo

driosketch wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Spear shards is a bad AoE, acts like a no-scope CC that doesn't do much damage, and is only useful for trying to find stealthed players. The only reason it'd be used would be for a group with stamina builds who can synergize off the shards, which is why templars are a better class for PvE dungeon runs.

I feel you are severely underestimating the blazing spear morph here. I use it as my primary cc for 1v1 and to disrupt groups. I do use an mmo mouse though, so I'm able to move easily while rapid casting if that makes a difference.

I still use it all the time as a CC, but it's one of the few CC's that requires timing and aiming. In a 1v1, Aurora Javelin works much better due to the instant cast and higher damage, but shards is more effective in group play. For group disrupts, it's only an inconvenience tool, but if you have someone trying to run or stealth, it's much more effective. I'll still slot it on my bar occasionally, but only because I don't have any better skills to replace it with.

Cathexis wrote: »

I don't doubt you have made a lot of valuable points. Just wanted to say that when my stam sorc gets paired with any kind of templar we are an unstoppable steamrolling machine.

Amen. Running with my DK friend has been much more enjoyable. I just wish Templars had the same independence as Sorcs and Nightblades, or at least a stronger competitive edge.

a1i3nz

Harness magicka with a healing ward/restoring focus (depending on solo or group) as buff. Then pop a dark flare/cancel gap close(top charge) and spear spam/dawnbreak canceled. Throw in a purifying light for good measure.
I'm just saying I'm not having any problems and I run with 150 cp atm.
I've placed points in Bastion and my harness magicka absorbes around 13k and healing ward I'm not sure exactly how much but I don't go down easy at all in 1vX unless I get marked
I'm also high elf running 5 piece Julianos, 4 piece Magnus, 3 piece willpower. Dual wield as main, resto willpower staff backup.
With food and magelight/harness magicka I'm at 33k magic, 16 k health, 14k stamina.
2600 spell damage, 1700 recovery, 48% crit.

driosketch

bikerangelo wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Spear shards is a bad AoE, acts like a no-scope CC that doesn't do much damage, and is only useful for trying to find stealthed players. The only reason it'd be used would be for a group with stamina builds who can synergize off the shards, which is why templars are a better class for PvE dungeon runs.

I feel you are severely underestimating the blazing spear morph here. I use it as my primary cc for 1v1 and to disrupt groups. I do use an mmo mouse though, so I'm able to move easily while rapid casting if that makes a difference.

I still use it all the time as a CC, but it's one of the few CC's that requires timing and aiming. In a 1v1, Aurora Javelin works much better due to the instant cast and higher damage, but shards is more effective in group play. For group disrupts, it's only an inconvenience tool, but if you have someone trying to run or stealth, it's much more effective. I'll still slot it on my bar occasionally, but only because I don't have any better skills to replace it with.

I think you might be wrong about the damage, at least not in all situations. If you find yourself in a close quarters fight, the ground burn will edge out Aurora. Blazing spear is also cheaper per cast, so the spell economy is also better. Casts are also fairly fast, I can stun three before the first stun wears off, and as a bonus it's non reflectable. Which even if you are a distance fighter, it's nice to have as an option.

Bashev

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Here's why Templars in general and Dragon Knights as a bonus suck so bad in pvp. NB and Sorcs cried about them for over a year about how OP they were and ZOS decided "Hey lets give into the QQ and nerf DKs and Temps and make them nearly to totally useless and lets not stop there but make them even useless in PvE too."

And with one fell update Sorcs and NBs got there wish. NBs are the new META and DKs and Temps are a shadow of them former selves.

But doesn't mean give up the fight for DKs and Temps maybe down but they are never gonna be out.

Removing caps and nerfing block happened. These 2 things changed the meta.

usmcjdking

I think Eclipse is due for another nerf soon.