Remember the days when there was no AoE cap? *dreamy eyes*

Muizer

Draxys wrote: »

I'm just going to point out that making correlations to real life scenarios is completely pointless and you are essentially presenting a non-argument.

Well, real life is the best example we have of a consistent world. In reality, the introduction of gunpowder lead to castles and armour becoming irrelevant. Why would Tamriel not be subject to such logic? Yes, it has magic. Does that also make its people so stupid they'd still go to war with swords and shields if there were magical forces in use that could blow them all apart in an instant?

Sublime

Here's why I think AOE caps are here:

They make up for the missing game knowledge of the big player base.

Unfortunately, it's pretty easy to abuse by players who have knowledge (-> blobs)

Personally, I think there are better ways to make the game enjoyable for everyone.

Holycannoli

Draxys wrote: »

I'm just going to point out that making correlations to real life scenarios is completely pointless and you are essentially presenting a non-argument.

There are some games that correlate to real life a lot better than ESO (barring the whole "magic" thing) like Mount and Blade.

The simple fact is people forming a big blob without collision detection to defend against AOE is ass backwards. AOE should be the counter to blobs, not blobs the counter to AOE. That's the whole point of AOE.

When I played Rift one of my favorite souls to use in PvP was Dominator. It's a soul specifically designed to counter zerg blobs like you'd constantly find in Conquest. It has AOE skills that do AOE damage any time an enemy uses a skill of their own, or even moves. The damage quickly adds up. Plop a dominator AOE on a zerg blob and watch it disintegrate itself. Rift's AOE cap is maybe 10 targets, not this piddly 6 target crap ESO has. 10 may not seem like a whole lot more than 6 but when there are multiple AOEs going off it really adds up.

Korah_Eaglecry

Twilix01 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Removal of AOE caps is probably one of the top 2 dumbest design decisions they could possibly make right now.

reasons as to why this is would help your argument here...

Because it serves absolutely no purpose other to make PVE and PVP easier for the better-geared. It's just a thinly veiled attempt to further nerf the PVP newcomers into such a state of oblivion that they will become flatly ineffective in PVP. If my entire gig in Cyro consisted of showing up, joining a large group, then getting butchered by 5 players I would just find a different PVP game. "Git gud" doesn't work on casuals bro.

I mean, if you absolutely want to see Cyrodiil die go ahead and remove AOE caps. Or if you just want to see the game die in general keep up with these ideas.

If you don't want to get AOE'd by a group of five, don't blob up together, spread out. AOEs only work when you're all in one spot.

If you dont want to get Zerged. Then go get your own Zerg. Zergs only work when people dont Zerg back.

usmcjdking

Draxys wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Sentinel wrote: »

@usmcjdking
Please, please, read this thread, so you might better inform yourself about what actually will happen with AoE cap removal rather than assumptions...
Myth AoE Cap

One main summary of what AoE caps at the moment do, is that with more people in one spot, a group is artificially more defensive, because any damage coming at them gets reduced with more people in one spot. Removing AoE caps would not 'empower' small groups, making them able to be on a level higher than large groups, it would remove the current state of being 'empowered' held by large groups (due to the damage mitigation). If AoE caps were removed, damage received by all players would be equal to damage put out by other players. That's it. A small group versus a large group of equal individual damage and healing will still lose, but if a small group is able to surpass the large groups total damage and healing, without AoE caps, the small group can now prevail (whereas with AoE caps as they are, the large group has an innate advantage because it has a more damage mitigation than the small group).

O....kay?

So, in the really real world, it's generally a really...really bad idea to engage a force much larger than yourself head on with no real thought (ulti dumps and calling for barriers or chaining them or whatever it is that goes on in the TS are not real thought.). Like, people die for no reason. Suddenly, because there is no exception to that IRL rule in ESO, it becomes a serious gamebreaking issue in fantasy land that we solve by increasing AOE damage? Let's not talk about doing the dumbest tactical maneuver you could possibly do, let's talk about why the developers feel we should get punished for doing something that has been proven to fail spectacularly in almost every historical context you could imagine.

I honestly don't know what to tell you guys. ZOS won't change their mind because it would be stupid to. If you can't see the big picture with how they can maximize and manage their player base keeping them engaged with PVE and PVP content then threads like this will continue to pop up. If you don't bother to learn basic tactics that anyone can employ in a game designed around siege warfare, then I don't know what to tell you. If you would like to learn - I'm old and I would be happy to.

I'm just going to point out that making correlations to real life scenarios is completely pointless and you are essentially presenting a non-argument.

You can't seriously have just typed that.

Spearshard

I do think that it shouldnot be possible to 1vx. If I remember correctly (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but aoe caps were removed in 1.6 right? I watched as sypher took out about 15 ppl, bolted in and destroyed them. Damned impressive but still, doesn't seem right. They could all have been disorganized and really bad. However, that being said, there is no reason a ball should be able to absorb ballista fire and oils the way they can. Just isn't right. If they don't lift aoe they should really buff siege, or have it ignore caps.

elc8745ub17_ESO

He seriously did type it. And it's right. It's a game that doesn't follow the same rules as real life. You can literally run through people in this game. You cant do that in real life.

But you see, usmcjdking, everyone, at any point in time, without having to do anything special, can run through other players. This is called fair. Because everyone can do it, by default.

What's not fair is when 24 ball groupers stack on top of each other allowing themselves to take 50% less damage from aoe caps and run over 1 poor casual new guy to the game who takes 100% damage from each and every one of their 24 aoe attacks. Or when they do it to 2 casuals, or 3, or 4.

This is the textbook definition of unfair and horrible game design. To add insult to injury, the ball group lags the ever living hell out of the casual right before they kill him.

This is what happens every day. You seem so worried about the poor casual player, the new guy to the game. You also seem like you dont pvp much. So let me fill you in. You know who kills the most casuals in ESO pvp? Ball groups exploiting aoe caps. I watch it every day. Casuals just getting steamrolled en masse by ball groups exploiting the aoe system.

Here, check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l89jWnFiepQ

18 vs 121. Those numbers come from the group that posted it wherever on this forum. It was in the title. 18 people killed 121 people because they exploited aoe caps.

It's been my pleasure man. And you're welcome.

RAGUNAnoOne

usmcjdking wrote: »

I'd have to ask how on earth anyone would determine that this would reduce lag.

kuscoe wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

kuscoe wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Cryhavoc wrote: »

Most of the arguments in favor of AOE caps are made by players who admit that they do not PvP.

That is my interpretation.

I'm not making an argument. At no point did I even suggest where my personal stance is on AOE caps. But FYI my personal stance is that I do not care whether they exist or don't.

Really because it seems otherwise

I.E. Hating on people's opinions becuase you think you know what is good for this game (despite not pvping frequently)

Let's take an objective look at this.

Small group = 2-6 people.
Zerg group = 20+ people

It doesn't take an 8th grade pre-algebra student to realize that empowering the 2-6 is not beneficial for the masses and the long term health of the gaming community.

Ok so by your "logic" empowering the few is bad for the game but there is just as many small groups (if not more) then there is zergball groups

if these Zergballs arent wiping people with 4+ less people then them then they suck and should get out of PvP

Anyway this thread is about reducing the lag which removing AoE caps would help

which if I not mistaken is what everyone wants?

*at any given time this could be true. But over a period of time it is not. It's just not a good logical comparison.

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

kuscoe wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Cryhavoc wrote: »

Most of the arguments in favor of AOE caps are made by players who admit that they do not PvP.

That is my interpretation.

I'm not making an argument. At no point did I even suggest where my personal stance is on AOE caps. But FYI my personal stance is that I do not care whether they exist or don't.

Really because it seems otherwise

I.E. Hating on people's opinions becuase you think you know what is good for this game (despite not pvping frequently)

Let's take an objective look at this.

Small group = 2-6 people.
Zerg group = 20+ people

It doesn't take an 8th grade pre-algebra student to realize that empowering the 2-6 is not beneficial for the masses and the long term health of the gaming community.

Yet at the same time it is not beneficial to the " masses and the long term health of the gaming community" for the ONLY way to fight being to zergball. with this comment being true we may as well just end PvP altogether as both solutions will lead down this path. I would choose the lesser of 2 evils and have the AOE cap removed so tactics like siege will actually be worth something. in a poll made before the cap the majority agreed it was a bad idea and now after the cap I bet you 5000 gold that that poll will still stand.

it is obvious to the point that a second grader can tell that that no one is going to change your mind so I won't even try but I have to ask is zergging really that fun to you when you have NO risk whatsoever?

The answer to your zergballing problem cannot be provided to you by a series of buffs/nerfs to zergballers while maintaining a healthy game. I suggest you start here:

globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/7-8/index.html

Good little read and made for Class B ASVABers so anyone can understand it.

this isn't a buff or a nerf think of it this way if someone drops a nuke do you think only 6 people that are in the blast range will die while the rest laugh it off? basically that is what AOE caps are doing now and I bet you anything that if the USA didn't use that atom bomb on the Japanese history would be very different. anti zerg tactics exist in real life so they should exist in the game as well. let proximity detonation be our grenades and siege be our missiles.

azoriangaming

proxy detonation zerg buster? more like zerg buffer...

FENGRUSH

usmcjdking wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

kuscoe wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Cryhavoc wrote: »

Most of the arguments in favor of AOE caps are made by players who admit that they do not PvP.

That is my interpretation.

I'm not making an argument. At no point did I even suggest where my personal stance is on AOE caps. But FYI my personal stance is that I do not care whether they exist or don't.

Really because it seems otherwise

I.E. Hating on people's opinions becuase you think you know what is good for this game (despite not pvping frequently)

Let's take an objective look at this.

Small group = 2-6 people.
Zerg group = 20+ people

It doesn't take an 8th grade pre-algebra student to realize that empowering the 2-6 is not beneficial for the masses and the long term health of the gaming community.

It makes sense to empower them so far that each player is equal to each player of the oponent fraction so if you want to win a 20 vs 5 you have to use your brain instead of just poping proxi det and spaming steel tornado

I don't disagree and it's a very valid complaint.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with AOE caps whatsoever. I get that is where this whole "Remove AOE caps so we can hit them with bigger hammers than they hit us" spawns from - but it simply won't happen because not only is it not the proper fix, it's also creates more problems than it solves. QQing because you got steamrolled by 20 people isn't a legitimate basis to form an argument on.

This is how the Cold War started. And we saw how that all panned out. Pretty boring game concept.

Actually removing AOE caps doesnt allow people to hit the bigger group with 'bigger hammers than they hit us'. It just allows them to fight with equal non-artificial mechanics that give people who outnumber you a further advantage. They dont have to be casual either, they could be the most hardcore ball group playing the game against casuals.

From your comments it looks like youre likely a participant in these groups and find yourself inept outside of them. Youll still be able to PvP with AOE caps removed - dont worry too much.

HenryIvan

I don't know nothing about AoE caps and such but I always thought it would be kool if we could lay a tar trap down on a zerg for example set up a tar trap on alessia bridge or at the mile gates and when the zerg comes running through they get stuck for x amount of time and movement slowed also thought slick oil would be funny too. Lay down your slick oil just like the tar but instead of slowing them down it makes there characters slip and fall and set them off balance

briandivisionb16_ESO

What bothers me is why ZOS isn't commenting.

Hundreds of threads. Hundreds of questions. All the streamers unite and make podcasts. And ZOS are saying nothing.

You have no idea how much lack of communication from companies kills games.
I miss Paul Sage.

usmcjdking

briandivisionb16_ESO wrote: »

What bothers me is why ZOS isn't commenting.

Hundreds of threads. Hundreds of questions. All the streamers unite and make podcasts. And ZOS are saying nothing.

You have no idea how much lack of communication from companies kills games.
I miss Paul Sage.

Because there really isn't an issue here worth commenting about. The only problem with AOE caps is the one you created in your head.