Define a MMO

BaldusMageezack

Zorrashi wrote: »

MMO=Massively Multiplayer Online
Basically a game where there a tons of people--well--online. Basically a game with a player population besides just you.

Naturally they tend to develop trends toward socialization, teamwork and the like but nowhere does it say that an MMO must have group content only. Grouping is totally fine, solo is totally fine, mixing and matching is totally fine. Niether are inherently bad.
All that is left after that is the matter of player demand. Demand that, in this game in particular, does significantly lean toward solo content as well as group content.

MMOs can be for more than just for groupers, you know.

This 100% couldn't have said it better.

UrQuan

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Hmmm ... maybe this will help you understand:

UrQuan wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

It means a bunch of people in the same world making it feel immersive and real... do I run around in real life shouting out "People join me in a quest to go to the grocery store!"?

No, I don't...

Hmm, maybe you should @nimander99, maybe you should. I must say that I suddenly find myself interested in experiencing this epic quest to go to the grocery store myself, but I'm not entirely confident that with my current build and gear I can actually tackle it solo. I think it might be best to group up for this one, so if you still need to complete this quest and we're on the same server (I'm on Real Life: Western Canada) perhaps we can find 2 more and give it a go.

That damn quest ALWAYS needs a group. Otherwise, who carries the beer??

I know right? I'm pretty sure that's the tank's job.

a.skelton92

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

Could not have put it better myself.

Tannakaobi

a.skelton92 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

Could not have put it better myself.

I suppose the ignorant will follow the ignorant.

We don't 'live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out'.

Plenty of people do, but not all. But this is worded in such a way as to make out that one side, the people that want to play alone are wrong.

'They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content.'

I simply don't think that is true. Maybe in some real minority of cases. People do want to know what the best builds are though. Usually for PVP.

'Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy," and move on to the next.'

I seriously doubt this. The people who complain about it being too 'easy' are most likely the people that just simply find it to easy. One of the problems here is that some people 'demand' that they must be good enough for 'everything'. Generally I find it's the kind of people that made this post and thread that fall into this category. They can't accept that other players will simply be better at the game than them and therefore should not be catered for.

'When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.'

Of course the comment is going to finish in a derogatory sentence, it started that way so why wouldn't it finish like that. Again another assumption based of the imagination of someone that is just self projecting.

Just because some people like to play solo does not mean anything more. It's just one of many types of playstyles.

Callous2208

Tannakaobi wrote: »

a.skelton92 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

Could not have put it better myself.

I suppose the ignorant will follow the ignorant.

We don't 'live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out'.

Plenty of people do, but not all. But this is worded in such a way as to make out that one side, the people that want to play alone are wrong.

'They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content.'

I simply don't think that is true. Maybe in some real minority of cases. People do want to know what the best builds are though. Usually for PVP.

'Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy," and move on to the next.'

I seriously doubt this. The people who complain about it being too 'easy' are most likely the people that just simply find it to easy. One of the problems here is that some people 'demand' that they must be good enough for 'everything'. Generally I find it's the kind of people that made this post and thread that fall into this category. They can't accept that other players will simply be better at the game than them and therefore should not be catered for.

'When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.'

Of course the comment is going to finish in a derogatory sentence, it started that way so why wouldn't it finish like that. Again another assumption based of the imagination of someone that is just self projecting.

Just because some people like to play solo does not mean anything more. It's just one of many types of playstyles.

I did over generalize a bit in that post long ago. I admire the rosy perception you have of the situation. But I still feel the majority are as I called it previously. Self projection...perhaps. But I would call it being a realist, with a dash of pessimism. As for your last line, agreed, completely. But alas, this is an mmo, by definition it was never meant to be played this way. Sure, as times have changed, and a great many people have started to prefer not to be bothered with other personalities in their online game world; gaming companies have tried to bend the original format to be inclusive to those folks as well. Was it worth so much to you, to disagree with my sentiment, that you would ignore the solid fact that the overwhelming majority of mmo players in today's market, immediately google the best build/playstyle, rush through the game, and move on to the next never truly satisfied. "End game," is the new buzz word. The journey to it is all but forgotten.

P.S. As for derogatory, I believe you opened your statement by directly insulting a member of the community because he shared my sentiments. The body was well worded, the opening was self righteous and unnecessary.

Lirkin

kalimar44 wrote: »

To me it means Mulit Player Online. So why are most of you surprised when they add stuff to the game that requires a group of people to do. This is a MMO people not a single player game. I want a MMO to have a challenge and kick my butt some times. I guess I'm old school MMO player here that came from Everquest.

So play ESO if you like groups with some solo stuff, or play a single player rpg if your all about just soloing.

Multi Player on line only means that multiple players on online at the same time. Or a world with multiple players in it at the same time. It does not say anything beyond that.

Your logic above is flawed! There are big advantages to playing solo in an active world that evolves and grows.

I prefer a game that you can play as you like. I prefer to solo and this game gives that option to me. That is why I am not playing those other games that force grouping! If you want to group I am not against it. Why should you be trying to force others to play your way? This is a reflection of many of the problems in the world people trying to make others do what they think is right.

Funny I keep having this go through my head: Mommy make them play with me!

That's what posts like this make me think of. Trying to make others play your way.

Nikkiy

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

Hmmm... we must be living in different times
I spend most my time in this game grouped and having fun.
My guildies / friends also help eachother out whenever any of us need help.
To each their own, I suppose

Smitch_59

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

I play it 'cause it's an Elder Scrolls game not because it's an MMO. Yes, a lot of us solo'rs shouldn't be surprised when group content comes out, but a lot of the MMO players shouldn't be so surprised that solo'rs play this game too when its roots are pretty deep, and thus get thrown a bone as well at times.

We may not get along sometimes but we're all roommates and pay the bills so neither can kick the other out.

^^^This. I would only say that "I play it 'cause it's an Elder Scrolls game, despite the fact it's an MMO." I resisted buying TES at first because it's an MMO. It was only after I learned that most of the game is solo-able and because of my love for the Elder Scrolls series that I finally started playing. I have no other experience with MMOs, in fact, much of the discussion on these forums is way over my head. I simply don't understand the MMO-speak that is so common here.

I've only done a couple of group dungeons with PUGs (and I had to look up what a PUG is), and neither experience was particularly enjoyable. I've joined some guilds just so I can sell extra motifs and recipes. My character will sometimes dance and act foolish with other anonymous characters in the cities. That is the extent of my group activity, the rest of my time is spent solo.

Actually, that's not entirely correct. My wife also enjoys the Elder Scrolls series and ESO, so much so that I bought another Xbox and now we team up and play together. We sometimes get frustrated with each other because we're both so used to playing solo, going where we want whenever we want. When we play together we have to communicate and coordinate where we are going and what we are doing. It's fun, it's just a different experience from pure solo play.

Callous2208

Nikkiy wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

Hmmm... we must be living in different times
I spend most my time in this game grouped and having fun.
My guildies / friends also help eachother out whenever any of us need help.
To each their own, I suppose

As do I. Just going by what I hear a lot in game, in forums, not just eso either. I was a little cranky when I wrote that too. Generalized the heck out of everything!

Tannakaobi

Callous2208 wrote: »

P.S. As for derogatory, I believe you opened your statement by directly insulting a member of the community because he shared my sentiments. The body was well worded, the opening was self righteous and unnecessary.

I agree that many people exist that fit in with what the poster said. The mistake the poster made was to suggest it's all solo players, hence my choice in words. My post was an insult because It annoys me when someone picks all the faults in the 'MMO player' and says it's the 'solo' players that are like this. In reality it is a mixture of the player base that behave like this. As a solo player mainly I don't like this behavior any more than you.

That is what is wrong with this whole thread, it works on the assumption that solo players don't have a place in the 'MMO' which is quite simply garbage. Most quests are made to be played solo from what I have seen, but it's good that you can choose, because that is what MMO's are really, Choices!

Also I havn't seen many solo players complain about group play to be honest. In fact the only thing I have seen is solo players requesting new content. Which as it happens I agree with, they pay just as much. Why should they not get some of the spoils.

Volkodav

Actually this is supposed to be a game like WoW in that it's an MMO.And in WoW you DONT HAVE TO BE IN A GROUP TO PLAY.An MMO simply means that the world is occupied by other players.So in ESO you dont have to group to play,but you can ask for help from other players.They can join you for a run,or just a hard delve.Groups can play in groups,..IF they wish.So whats the problem with soloers playing? It wa snt created just for groupers.

Callous2208

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

P.S. As for derogatory, I believe you opened your statement by directly insulting a member of the community because he shared my sentiments. The body was well worded, the opening was self righteous and unnecessary.

I agree that many people exist that fit in with what the poster said. The mistake the poster made was to suggest it's all solo players, hence my choice in words. My post was an insult because It annoys me when someone picks all the faults in the 'MMO player' and says it's the 'solo' players that are like this. In reality it is a mixture of the player base that behave like this. As a solo player mainly I don't like this behavior any more than you.

That is what is wrong with this whole thread, it works on the assumption that solo players don't have a place in the 'MMO' which is quite simply garbage. Most quests are made to be played solo from what I have seen, but it's good that you can choose, because that is what MMO's are really, Choices!

Also I havn't seen many solo players complain about group play to be honest. In fact the only thing I have seen is solo players requesting new content. Which as it happens I agree with, they pay just as much. Why should they not get some of the spoils.

I'm with you now. Was a lack of understanding on my part and I actually agree with your sentiments more than my posts let on. I had just left a thread before this one in which the op was raging on because the dlc contained content he couldn't solo. Many agreed and shared his opinion that all content should have been soloable. My original tone carried with it the emotions from that thread.

i3ig_Gun

you people act like there is NO solo content...

and you other people act like this should only be group content...

WTF is wrong with you people?

reften

kalimar44 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

I agree 100%

Geez, what a dark view of society you two must have.

I run in a guild of about 70 people...of which 25-30 talk in TS. We all get along, poke fun at each other, sometimes argue, etc, but at the end we play together a lot whether it's in IC, Cyrodiil, the occasional undaunted duangeon. Great fun.

The problem with this game is the PvE grouping dynamics. Since you can solo nearly EVERYTHING and so many are grinding alts, doing solo content...finding people who are interested in doing group content is tough, because there is so much solo content to do.

PvP another story. This game is an elite pvp game, so much fun, easy to group and work together, can group for 10 minutes or can group for 8 hours and have fun.

Can't say that about PvE. Takes forever to group, get together...then you run content that has terrible rewards and garbage loot.

What they need is a PvE zone that is like PvP. Just massively hard mobs everywhere, very little if any questing, and great xp/loot drops. You can pop in, get in a group, stick around for 30 and leave....or stick around for 8 hours to grind out some xp or loot.

You add that to the game, and the community would develop.

I believe most strong communities are built in this game around PvP, but what I just described is exactly how PvP works.

Volkodav

reften wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

I agree 100%

Geez, what a dark view of society you two must have.

I run in a guild of about 70 people...of which 25-30 talk in TS. We all get along, poke fun at each other, sometimes argue, etc, but at the end we play together a lot whether it's in IC, Cyrodiil, the occasional undaunted duangeon. Great fun.

The problem with this game is the PvE grouping dynamics. Since you can solo nearly EVERYTHING and so many are grinding alts, doing solo content...finding people who are interested in doing group content is tough, because there is so much solo content to do.

PvP another story. This game is an elite pvp game, so much fun, easy to group and work together, can group for 10 minutes or can group for 8 hours and have fun.

Can't say that about PvE. Takes forever to group, get together...then you run content that has terrible rewards and garbage loot.

What they need is a PvE zone that is like PvP. Just massively hard mobs everywhere, very little if any questing, and great xp/loot drops. You can pop in, get in a group, stick around for 30 and leave....or stick around for 8 hours to grind out some xp or loot.

You add that to the game, and the community would develop.

I believe most strong communities are built in this game around PvP, but what I just described is exactly how PvP works.

What about those people who DONT want to group or do PvP? ESO would lose a huge amount of people if this game turned as you are mentioning. Why must it be that PvPers look down on soloers so much? If soloers are forced into grouping,just to get in for 30 minutes and getting out again for a while,only to return for a quickie,they'll leave.
Many of us dont want just fight,fight,fight.We love the time it takes to do quests,craft,and enjoy the game itself. We who paid for a "play as you like" game just arent into PvP. We dont get upset at PvPers getting new content for them, and less solo for us,but the PvPers are always on us soloers.
(dont take this as me dissing you.:} )

reften

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

reften wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

I agree 100%

Geez, what a dark view of society you two must have.

I run in a guild of about 70 people...of which 25-30 talk in TS. We all get along, poke fun at each other, sometimes argue, etc, but at the end we play together a lot whether it's in IC, Cyrodiil, the occasional undaunted duangeon. Great fun.

The problem with this game is the PvE grouping dynamics. Since you can solo nearly EVERYTHING and so many are grinding alts, doing solo content...finding people who are interested in doing group content is tough, because there is so much solo content to do.

PvP another story. This game is an elite pvp game, so much fun, easy to group and work together, can group for 10 minutes or can group for 8 hours and have fun.

Can't say that about PvE. Takes forever to group, get together...then you run content that has terrible rewards and garbage loot.

What they need is a PvE zone that is like PvP. Just massively hard mobs everywhere, very little if any questing, and great xp/loot drops. You can pop in, get in a group, stick around for 30 and leave....or stick around for 8 hours to grind out some xp or loot.

You add that to the game, and the community would develop.

I believe most strong communities are built in this game around PvP, but what I just described is exactly how PvP works.

What about those people who DONT want to group or do PvP? ESO would lose a huge amount of people if this game turned as you are mentioning. Why must it be that PvPers look down on soloers so much? If soloers are forced into grouping,just to get in for 30 minutes and getting out again for a while,only to return for a quickie,they'll leave.
Many of us dont want just fight,fight,fight.We love the time it takes to do quests,craft,and enjoy the game itself. We who paid for a "play as you like" game just arent into PvP. We dont get upset at PvPers getting new content for them, and less solo for us,but the PvPers are always on us soloers.
(dont take this as me dissing you.:} )

Oh no, I agree, keep all the solo content as is. Just there needs to be an option to group, where grouping is worthwhile. Right now, it really isn't (except in pvp)

Casdha

Ok some thoughts to add:

If a boss can be killed by resource management (rotate magicka stamina and health) I consider it solo-able if it can be killed. It doesn't matter if the fight takes a half an hour, as long as it can be done with technique. If a boss can one shot you with full health (without attribute points taken) and is immune to blocks and/or interrupts then it is not. I like difficult, I don't like impossible.

How I view an MMO - Think of a baseball game: The teams are group content PvP The crowd is PvE (you can go alone or with others) and the Stands Vendors are Solo PvP (Trying to make a living while avoiding the occasional beer bottle or half eaten hot dog). The folks watching or listening at home are the various types of dungeons. Everyone together is the MMO. The single player version of the game is not any one of these, it is the person who mows the field after the stands are empty. He can have help sometimes (co-op) and maybe even pick up a bat and take a few swings, but the experience is not the same as being there during the game.


Edit: Of course you can substitute your sport of choice. also I made a tweak or two.

stevenbennett_ESO

reften wrote: »

Geez, what a dark view of society you two must have.

I run in a guild of about 70 people...of which 25-30 talk in TS. We all get along, poke fun at each other, sometimes argue, etc, but at the end we play together a lot whether it's in IC, Cyrodiil, the occasional undaunted duangeon. Great fun.

The problem with this game is the PvE grouping dynamics. Since you can solo nearly EVERYTHING and so many are grinding alts, doing solo content...finding people who are interested in doing group content is tough, because there is so much solo content to do.

PvP another story. This game is an elite pvp game, so much fun, easy to group and work together, can group for 10 minutes or can group for 8 hours and have fun.

Can't say that about PvE. Takes forever to group, get together...then you run content that has terrible rewards and garbage loot.

What they need is a PvE zone that is like PvP. Just massively hard mobs everywhere, very little if any questing, and great xp/loot drops. You can pop in, get in a group, stick around for 30 and leave....or stick around for 8 hours to grind out some xp or loot.

You add that to the game, and the community would develop.

I believe most strong communities are built in this game around PvP, but what I just described is exactly how PvP works.

While some strong communities in this game are PvP, there are PLENTY of non PvP communities out there, too. The thing is, MMO means different things to different players. A zone like what you describe will appeal to certain kinds of players and form communities around those players. PvP appeals to certain kinds of players and forms communities around those players. PvE appeals to certain kinds of players and forms communities around those players. Role playing appeals to certain kinds of players and forms communities around those players. And even solo players will form communities to discuss and compare solo experiences. Out of game groups who happen to have members playing the same game will form their own communities as well, tied together by region, or a common hobby, or a circle of friends or any number of other things.

And here's the thing -- ESO is *very* effective at letting ALL of these different people play in the same basic sandbox and form their communities at will, and, unlike a lot of other MMOs out there, lets us join *multiple* communities by supporting multiple guilds.

Me, I mostly prefer to play with friends - we get together and regularly group to do ALL the PvE content. We don't do PvP at all - it's not particularly interesting to us. A PvE zone like what you describe wouldn't be much interest to us either - we like the storyline and structure of quests and dungeons. I'm not objecting to the idea, just pointing out it only really appeals to a small segment of the overall player base. And I'm pointing out there are LOTS of ways to form communities to do what you want. Having trouble with finding people in your guild to do PvE groups? Find and join a questing guild. There are PLENTY out there. You'll find PvE groups a LOT easier to find at that point.

UrQuan

Callous2208 wrote: »

I did over generalize a bit in that post long ago.

Yesterday is "long ago" now? Does that make last week the ancient past?

pdebie64b16_ESO

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Name one game where a grp is required for lvling(that's successful)... dungeons, bosses, raids, arenas, yea those should all be grp but over world should be solo.

Vanilla Dark Age of Camelot, without a group leveling was so slow.

Callous2208

UrQuan wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

I did over generalize a bit in that post long ago.

Yesterday is "long ago" now? Does that make last week the ancient past?

In forum time? Absolutely!

UrQuan

Callous2208 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

I did over generalize a bit in that post long ago.

Yesterday is "long ago" now? Does that make last week the ancient past?

In forum time? Absolutely!

Oh no... So how fast have I been aging all this time I've spent on the forums? ZOS WHY U STEAL MY YOUTH?!?

Volkodav

reften wrote: »

WhiskeyRiver.AZub17_ESO wrote: »

reften wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

It is how you say and always has been. Unfortunately we live in a time where no one wants to group or be social and help each other out. They want to research and copy the best build that someone else has mastered, and faceroll all content. Ironically these same folks will then label the game "too easy, "and move on to the next. When group content or challenge is presented, they gnash their teeth and bemoan that everything is too hard and should be easily solo'd.

I agree 100%

Geez, what a dark view of society you two must have.

I run in a guild of about 70 people...of which 25-30 talk in TS. We all get along, poke fun at each other, sometimes argue, etc, but at the end we play together a lot whether it's in IC, Cyrodiil, the occasional undaunted duangeon. Great fun.

The problem with this game is the PvE grouping dynamics. Since you can solo nearly EVERYTHING and so many are grinding alts, doing solo content...finding people who are interested in doing group content is tough, because there is so much solo content to do.

PvP another story. This game is an elite pvp game, so much fun, easy to group and work together, can group for 10 minutes or can group for 8 hours and have fun.

Can't say that about PvE. Takes forever to group, get together...then you run content that has terrible rewards and garbage loot.

What they need is a PvE zone that is like PvP. Just massively hard mobs everywhere, very little if any questing, and great xp/loot drops. You can pop in, get in a group, stick around for 30 and leave....or stick around for 8 hours to grind out some xp or loot.

You add that to the game, and the community would develop.

I believe most strong communities are built in this game around PvP, but what I just described is exactly how PvP works.

What about those people who DONT want to group or do PvP? ESO would lose a huge amount of people if this game turned as you are mentioning. Why must it be that PvPers look down on soloers so much? If soloers are forced into grouping,just to get in for 30 minutes and getting out again for a while,only to return for a quickie,they'll leave.
Many of us dont want just fight,fight,fight.We love the time it takes to do quests,craft,and enjoy the game itself. We who paid for a "play as you like" game just arent into PvP. We dont get upset at PvPers getting new content for them, and less solo for us,but the PvPers are always on us soloers.
(dont take this as me dissing you.:} )

Oh no, I agree, keep all the solo content as is. Just there needs to be an option to group, where grouping is worthwhile. Right now, it really isn't (except in pvp)

But,doesnt the option to ask someone if they want to group with you just that? The option to group. That white circle that comes up when you click to interact with them?You can chat,ask them to be friends,or ask them to group. I'm not understanding what you mean by an option to group where it matters.

AfkNinja

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Name one game where a grp is required for lvling(that's successful)... dungeons, bosses, raids, arenas, yea those should all be grp but over world should be solo.

FFXI online. My personal favorite mmo to date.

Gidorick

AfkNinja wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Name one game where a grp is required for lvling(that's successful)... dungeons, bosses, raids, arenas, yea those should all be grp but over world should be solo.

FFXI online. My personal favorite mmo to date.

Lol. That's why I had so many issues in that game @AfkNinja. I loved that game but only ever got to like level 21.

Soulshine

At this stage of the genre?

I am long past arguing the way most of you are about whether it means solo friendly, group friendly, blah-blah-blah...

I define MMOs as "Massive Money Operations" - namely, for the companies making them, because this industry has paradoxically become a bull market for the few standing developer's left while the players, hungry for quality titles they can engage with, are instead left in the lurch with a never ending stream of mediocre games at best that promise much, deliver little, but above all nickle and dime you to death if you are stupid enough to fall for these tactics, employed nearly everywhere you look theses days in the industry.

P2W, F2P, B2P, founder's packs, pre-order bonuses, early start, beta weekend parties... it's really all bull$hit. I can remember when being in a beta actually meant something....

There was a time in the not so distant past of gaming, when companies actually put together games based on a targeted niche of players, and could really have cared less if they garnered raves for every single play-style under the sun in one game. Some developers actually took some pride in making games that shined on many levels for the niche in question. It wasn't about sell the most, to the most people, in the shortest time possible, and keep them chasing the carrot in front of the cart for more.

Evidence of what that looked like can be seen in the vanilla levels of some games which are still around, though now pretty much just shells of their former selves....

Truth is, as gamers have aged right along with the industry, it has been turned into something quite different that what it was originally intended to be - and I don't think that is a good thing either. Attempting to define, create, market, and sell what essentially could have been an interactive art form, has instead been cheapened into mass entertainment for the computer age generation barely one step above network TV.

RizaHawkeye

Soulshine wrote: »

At this stage of the genre?

I am long past arguing the way most of you are about whether it means solo friendly, group friendly, blah-blah-blah...

I define MMOs as "Massive Money Operations" ...

That post was awesome.

I hope you are wrong when you refer to games and their potential for becoming an "interactive art form" in the past tense, as if that ship has sailed and isn't coming back. That would be pretty sad, actually.

mrdankles

Massive mega ***.

Soulshine

RizaHawkeye wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

At this stage of the genre?

I am long past arguing the way most of you are about whether it means solo friendly, group friendly, blah-blah-blah...

I define MMOs as "Massive Money Operations" ...

That post was awesome.

I hope you are wrong when you refer to games and their potential for becoming an "interactive art form" in the past tense, as if that ship has sailed and isn't coming back. That would be pretty sad, actually.

Well , that does remain to be seen I suppose, since we are all complicit in the outcome to some extent. The amazing thing about this medium is that it has the potential to allow for the social experience to which it gives a platform, to also provide a collective vision through active participation in the artists' created world and thereby influence outcomes neither side would arrive upon alone.

Sadly, most MMO developers seem to have forgotten about all that and instead have devolved nearly everything to the lowest common denominator. FoTM builds being a prime example of this trend. Thankfully, there are still some rebels about who make strong cases for thinking outside the box, even as it is getting nailed over their heads...they manage to prove wrong the formulaic approach to play and make good anyway a poorly outfitted toolbox.

Still, I think there is room for a Renaissance of sorts, if ever enough people actually versed in game design actually take back the helm of their IPs rather than leaving it all to suits versed in marketing and sales because they allowed profit to win over artistic integrity.

Tankqull

pdebie64b16_ESO wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Name one game where a grp is required for lvling(that's successful)... dungeons, bosses, raids, arenas, yea those should all be grp but over world should be solo.

Vanilla Dark Age of Camelot, without a group leveling was so slow.

hehe yeah... 93 days solo playtime to get max lvl that were times ...