Myth AoE Cap

Nifty2g

You should tag him
@ZOS_RichLambert

There you go, Eric Wrobel doesn't have a page fyi

Efficient

Bump, as this should be a sticky. The fact that this was on the third page of general is insulting to this community.

Thanks,

maxlacab16_ESO

@Taonnor Great stuff! Well done!

Derra

Awesome topic.

babanovac

Thank you OP for the hard work you put into making this post. Awesome stuff

SleepyTroll

Just bump this every time you don't see it on the front of recent lol

Prizax

Great job explaining, I'm sure ZoS will remove the AoE cap as they already said before the problem is when...

Garion

At the very least ZOS should post to explain their justification for the AOE cap. It makes no sense, and the continued presence of a cap in game is just stupid.

jbcrocks

Really hope they remove aoe caps in the orsinium patch

k2blader

How does the experiment work if the damage and mitigation and heal potential for one group is substantially higher than the other group?

BuggeX

Garion wrote: »

At the very least ZOS should post to explain their justification for the AOE cap. It makes no sense, and the continued presence of a cap in game is just stupid.

i can tell you one aspect,

wath do you think is easyer to calculate:

A )
1) call in all values the Player which are casting the aoe (attack, Staminapool, CPs, you know anything which is pushing dps)
2) determine 6 Players which are getting the dmg and call in theyr stats (Def, current Resourcespool, Cps etcetc.)
3) calculate the effective dmg done to this 6 Targets
4) calculate possible procs like Evil Hunter, valkyn skoria etcetc.
5) Recalculate the dmg of this procs to this 6 Players if one is procced
6) Rollout the new Ressourcepool from this Players (networkheat is reduced, less data to push out)

B )
1) call in all values the Player which are castin the aoe (attack, Staminapool, CPs, you know anything which is pushing dps)
2) determine all Players within the range and call in theyr stats(Def, current Resourcespool, Cps etcetc.)
3) calculate the effective dmg done to all this Targets
4) calculate possible procs like Evil Hunter, valkyn skoria etcetc.
5) Recalculate the dmg of this procs to all this Players if one is procced
6) Rollout the new Ressourcepool from all this Players (networkheat is increest, anyone Needs the new datas from anyone)

to go a bit further with B ) someone is using the set which knock any one back when hp Drops under 30%.
now the Server even have to recalc all coordinates from the affected Players and also to rollout to any Client.
Networkheat is even more increest.

Since our Clients will recive the tripple of Data at the same time, we will have more lags.

edit: @Taonnor

if you want and have the time to do the work, you could add a other Option "realistic".
in which the dmg is random between some values like 1000 - 3000.
so you have to calculate the dmg from each caster and calculate the dmg done to each Player.
you could also add a calculation from 5-10% (random) if a proc like evil hunter is procced, add a random dmg from 1k-2k and add this as a dmg. you could also add a random mitigation between 20%-40%.

With this you can simulate the Stat calls from each Player and values arent static.
Ohh and to make it more realistic, let the program write down each value from a full calculation to a txt file.
now you can check the size after and you will know how much traffic the Options creat.

Huggalump

brb, gonna buy the game two more times so that I can have 3 total forum accounts just so I can give OP insightful, agree, and awesome

Tommy1979AtWar

Great work OP!

+100

Nijjion

Rylana wrote: »

That is extremely worrisome (i got the same results and was gonna say something before i saw this post)

The only counter to a bombsquad is going to be another bombsquad =/

Counter to bomb groups are actually coordinated melee/assist trains in other games. ESO should follow suit as it is similar to those games.

Mainly due to healers being good in these types of group so aoe damage won't work to kill them... So assisting targets to get big damage on 1 target and killing them off 1 by 1 is how it is done as the healer can't cope.

Taonnor

BuggeX wrote: »

if you want and have the time to do the work, you could add a other Option "realistic".
in which the dmg is random between some values like 1000 - 3000.
so you have to calculate the dmg from each caster and calculate the dmg done to each Player.
you could also add a calculation from 5-10% (random) if a proc like evil hunter is procced, add a random dmg from 1k-2k and add this as a dmg. you could also add a random mitigation between 20%-40%.

With this you can simulate the Stat calls from each Player and values arent static.
Ohh and to make it more realistic, let the program write down each value from a full calculation to a txt file.
now you can check the size after and you will know how much traffic the Options creat.

At the moment i do not want to implement new features into the simulator. The idea of the simulator was to create facts as realistic as possible for my article. Your ideas are very good and if i want to make new simulations i will implement this.

Especially the export of results was a feature that i removed, because of my time. With a CSV export you can create statistics like win chance or average ticks.

LoreRiley

Anyone who quotes this thread when replying just know I hate you

Tankqull

Page3 ?

nah...

babanovac

ZOS_KaiSchober wrote: »

I can confirm that Rich read it.

Kai, so any word on what Rich thinks about this analysis?

Taonnor

Compared to that beta view the game did many steps back. In my opinion one of that steps are the aoe caps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-BhwhwX38o

Rune_Relic

Excellent and well thought out post ..but what have you really proven here ?

1. The quicker everyone dies the lower the lag. We knew this. Dead people don't add to damage calcs.
2. Impact damage (coordinated burst attacks) can take down much, much larger (uncoodinated) groups. We knew this but probably not how devastating impact groups can be. Kudos there for single handedly changing the new upcoming Meta.
3. One large impact group will easily wipe one small impact group. We knew this.
4. Two uncoordinated groups take longer to kill each other. We Knew this
5. None of this takes into account groups can vary the damage vs mitigation ratio on the fly using smart heals.

So in essence we come back to the simple statement....the longer ball groups live and the bigger they are.. the greater the lag.

And the question....will removing AoE caps on damage and heals...actually change anything other than greater total damage done, more people hit by that damage, people still surviving the attacks and the server lagging out even more due to all the extra people that are now also damaged ?

I appreciate the effort I really do. You put a shift in on that one and deserve all the praise. I just think its misplaced.
A better simulator would be to have one tank/heal group vs one bomb group vs one ball group and see how long the fights can last.
ie One (coordinated/uncoordinated) light/medium DPS group vs one heavy/light Mitigation group.
If a mitigation group can simply soak up a bomb groups damage...the only winner with no aoe caps is lag.

And if you make AoE more powerful and it doesn't actually kill people even quicker....all you really did aside from increase lag is make single target game play even less viable.

Regardless... I would like to see caps removed....so that we know the impact instead of argue about what the impact might or might not be....on the proviso it will be reversed if it fails and makes lag even worse and single target skills redundant. ...just like the last aoe cap increase.

Ara_Valleria

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Lava_Croft

Bump.

Tors

It looks like @Rune_Relic actually read @Taonnor post and understood it.

Great post Taonnor, the big problem with the calculations is that they are unable to incorperate the affect of a prox-bomb group hitting a larger unorganised group.

The reason the prox-bomb groups work so well (aside from the massive damage) in a short period of time) is the timer for that damage is affectivly set before the lag hits the enemy.

A raid can hit their proximity bomb and start the attack timer, There is no lag at this point.

The prox-bomb heads to the raid under rapid manuver, as they get close, lag grows, this reduces action and reaction time for BOTH groups. Not such a problem for the prox group as they have allready hit their timer.

Both groups hit, lag is now at full strength. People feel like they are reduced to using ligh attacks in order to do damamge. This is untrue however, and attracks queued up, like prox bomb, will go off.

I believe this simple picture shows more clearly than my words can (the blue line is the lag point (point where your machine turns to mush)




Prox-bomb groups actually USE lag to their advantage and work outside of the constraints of a player being unable to perform an action.


So for the impact, whilst neither side can react fast, the main damage for the attacking group is still going to hit the defender at full strenegth at the same time.

Now imagine no AOE caps. This proximity bomb is worth almost 10k damamge on most players (including 25% bonus). 5 people groups can affectivly destroy an infinate number of enemy players if they are grouped.

oibam

Tors wrote: »

Now imagine no AOE caps. This proximity bomb is worth almost 10k damamge on most players (including 25% bonus). 5 people groups can affectivly destroy an infinate number of enemy players if they are grouped.

Yes. But you can stop them, if you have no lag. Atm bomb group comes...lag..dead.

Tors

oibam wrote: »

Yes. But you can stop them, if you have no lag. Atm bomb group comes...lag..dead.

Yes, but the lag aspect is almost not the point.

The visuals from the incomming bomb group CAUSES the lag (client side on lesser specked GPU's) the lag the OP is talking about is that caused by calculations server side based on the numbers of people and the other apspects he points out.

Bomb groups cause lag (for whatever reason and whatever type of lag, actual or visual) This lag reduces a groups response time (both attacker and defender) BUT the attacker does not need to be in control of his PC for the bomb to go off and be counted by the server.

Thus a small coordinated bomb group would be able to wipe out any sized group they ran into if there were no AOE caps.

Of course they need to be a certain size for their presense to cause lag in the first place. I personally have noticed a lag spike on groups of 5.

But the thing is, a smaller group is easier to coordinate. So only 10 people. 5 hitting bomb at 7 seconds from the enemy and 5 hitting it at 5 seconds, will destroy anything within the proximity range (second 5 hit it a second later to counter the lucky few who dodgrolled)

We NEED aoe caps, the game would be unplayable otherwise.

Kutsuu

@Tors that's kind of the point. It should be considered dangerous and bad practice for a large group to stack up in a high density. Spreading out becomes important when impact/focused AOE can be so potent. When you can spread out the damage by clumping up (with AOE caps), the whole dynamic changes and you *have* to ball up to be effective. We can look at DAOC and zergs vs bomb groups for many, many years of reference material here. A zerg that has spread out will almost always completely overwhelm a bomb group who comes into their midst - even if the bomb group gets some kills.

Tors

Yes to kill the zerb-bomb, we will roll out of the way and scatter, then come back behind and kill the stragglers, this is because we are pretty experianced and well coordinated. The average pick up squad cant do this. How many people have I killed who are standing in the middle of their group reading a map not paying attention? (more than a few I reckon)

Dont forget a sucessful zergball does not stay in one place. They will hit, bomb, then sprint away.

Count them, they run 3 seconds out, gather, hit proxy then back in.


@Kutsuu , I see your point and do agree with it, but with the healing systems and protections in place in ESO, "healing the crown" is always going to be more sucessfull than healing a scattered group.

A number of healers can keep protective circles down in one place covering everyone. If there were no AOE caps then we could have a situation when 5 healers could keep a million DPS alive indefinatly. (mana regen and no CC taken into account)

FENGRUSH

Saying we need AOE caps is pretty much saying I need my ball group to play this game.

Ultimately I think ZOS is on board at this point - theyve confirmed theyre making a thread about it.

They really have very little to lose at this point, people are leaving the game.

Hexyl

The only bad point is, like you said :

-Whitout aoe cap, fight duration is shorter, people die faster

And it's a prob too. People complain about be OS already right now. tko is very short.
If aoe cap will be removed you will take 60+ spell hit in 0,5s and die instantly.

It's not a good way for good fight in cyro i think.

Remove aoe cap can be a solution for the lag, but not for good fight. And good pvp.

Banroc

Great Post
Clearly AOE is a pain in the ass for all concerned including the server.. Just remove AOE from PVP No lagg No zerg balls
Every ones happy this way