Weapon damage vs. Spell damage,.

jelliedsoup

Are they equal? If stam and magicka, the targets armour and spell resistance, cp etc is equal, are they the same.

Is the range/melee aspect considered? Has there been any analysis done by anyone? If be interested to know.

Gilvoth

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

MisterBigglesworth

What's your basis for comparison? Which two abilities? (Scales mostly off weap/spell damage stat)
Or do you mean Light/Heavy attacks? (scales mostly off max Mag/Stam)
There are far more passives in the Champion system that boost physical damage in general, I can tell you that much anyway.

hedna123b14_ESO

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

What world are you living in? Stamina has hit harder ever since 1.6 was dropped and still hits harder...not to say that magicka is bad....just a close second...Now just to clarify I am speaking in terms of PvE....

jelliedsoup

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

What's your basis for comparison? Which two abilities? (Scales mostly off weap/spell damage stat)
Or do you mean Light/Heavy attacks? (scales mostly off max Mag/Stam)
There are far more passives in the Champion system that boost physical damage in general, I can tell you that much anyway.

Damage outputs of all skills, although light and heavy attacks would interesting too.

The purpose wouldn't be to directly compare two skills but look at the variation between outputs based on spell/Weapon damage, if everything else is equal.

I think it would be interesting.

Kammakazi

Stamina NBs are currently the hardest hitting class..

*cough Wrecking Blow

*cough paired with Weapon Critical

jelliedsoup

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

What world are you living in? Stamina has hit harder ever since 1.6 was dropped and still hits harder...not to say that magicka is bad....just a close second...Now just to clarify I am speaking in terms of PvE....

I think stamina hits harder from melee and stealth, but lacks any ability to sustain.

FriedEggSandwich

Would be difficult to test. Even if you had 2 players with the same magicka/stamina and spell/weapon damage, because so many other factors contribute towards tooltip damage. Up until 2.1 it was easier to raise weapon damage, but the latest patches have added a lot for those who want max spell damage. My gut feeling is that weapon damage would come out on top, just because you generally need to be within melee range to do damage with it. Spell damage tends to be ranged so is arguably less risky.

jelliedsoup

Kammakazi wrote: »

Stamina NBs are currently the hardest hitting class..

*cough Wrecking Blow

*cough paired with Weapon Critical

I think a spamming wb hits the hardest If I can spam the Wb.

As a spamming Wb I get hit the hardest by frag Sorcs and jab temps and my armour and spell resistance is the same, but then I might be coming up against stronger Sorcs and temps than spamming wbers.

jelliedsoup

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Would be difficult to test. Even if you had 2 players with the same magicka/stamina and spell/weapon damage, because so many other factors contribute towards tooltip damage. Up until 2.1 it was easier to raise weapon damage, but the latest patches have added a lot for those who want max spell damage. My gut feeling is that weapon damage would come out on top, just because you generally need to be within melee range to do damage with it. Spell damage tends to be ranged so is arguably less risky.

Yeah I would agree, the range and the streaking makes the mag Sorcs tricky for me.

gen_reynard2050

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Are they equal? If stam and magicka, the targets armour and spell resistance, cp etc is equal, are they the same.

of course same, if not how the combat system work.. but is never balance. skills make the different..

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Is the range/melee aspect considered? Has there been any analysis done by anyone? If be interested to know.

ermmmm.... Bow long shot II, gives you a damage bonus of up to 12% against enemies at longer range.


so do you feel still same?

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/170780/spell-dmg-vs-weapon-dmg-imbalances-updated-for-patch-2-1/p6

hedna123b14_ESO

jelliedsoup wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

What world are you living in? Stamina has hit harder ever since 1.6 was dropped and still hits harder...not to say that magicka is bad....just a close second...Now just to clarify I am speaking in terms of PvE....

I think stamina hits harder from melee and stealth, but lacks any ability to sustain.

I think that sustain is provided with repentance/shards in a group and in solo reduce cost and regen do the trick...stamina always wins out in groups..

jelliedsoup

gen_reynard2050 wrote: »

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Are they equal? If stam and magicka, the targets armour and spell resistance, cp etc is equal, are they the same.

of course same, if not how the combat system work.. but is never balance. skills make the different..

The skills of the person, or the skills used? If it's a bit of both we end up in this grey land. This is a computer game and as such things can be measured. I'm not interested in the skill of a person, but rather the amount of damage a skill does.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Is the range/melee aspect considered? Has there been any analysis done by anyone? If be interested to know.

ermmmm.... Bow

Umm I'm not saying there's no ranged weapon, but how does it compare to ranged magicka damage, cast times etc...

long shot II, gives you a damage bonus of up to 12% against enemies at longer range.

12% of not much, is still less than 5% of more.

so do you feel still same?

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/170780/spell-dmg-vs-weapon-dmg-imbalances-updated-for-patch-2-1/p6

Of course, I would like to see some figures, people in these threads don;t offer facts but make judgement based on their experiences where we don't know all the statistics of those who are fighting.

It needs to be measured accurately, general forum banter does not qualify particularly when you have those with heavily vested interests.

Xantaria

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

What's your basis for comparison? Which two abilities? (Scales mostly off weap/spell damage stat)
Or do you mean Light/Heavy attacks? (scales mostly off max Mag/Stam)
There are far more passives in the Champion system that boost physical damage in general, I can tell you that much anyway.

Completely WRONG. There is exactly the same amount of passives that increase Magicka based damage / Stamina based damage

1. You can achieve 25% more base damage for both Stamina and Magicka abilities
2. You can achieve 25% more extra critical damage for both Stamina and Magicka abilities
3. You can achieve 25% penetration for both Stamina and Magicka abilities
4. Same applies for Regeneration, Cost Reduction etc.

Keep in mind some people need to invest more points to achieve 1. because they have different sources of damage.
Magicka DK's are done after spending 100 points into Elemental Expert and achieved their 25% damage bonus.
Stamina DK's will need 100 points into Elemental Expert AND 100 Points into Physical damage increase to achieve the same 25% overall damage bonus.

Conclusion: The Championsystem offers the same bonus to Stamina / Magicka. Builds that use mixed damage (fire / physical / magic ... ) will need longer to get all bonuses out of the Championsystem than builds that are focused on a single element.

In General Magicka abilities have higher base values and also when looking at raw DPS (PvE) values Magicka builds are currently stronger than Stamina builds although it's easier to get high Weapon Damage than getting high Spell Damage. PvP is a different story though.

Tectonaut

I think this thread has derailed a tiddle bit.

Dymence

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

What world are you living in? Stamina has hit harder ever since 1.6 was dropped and still hits harder...not to say that magicka is bad....just a close second...Now just to clarify I am speaking in terms of PvE....

Not sure what you're on about exactly, but stamina dps is far far behind compared to magicka in PVE right now.

Taonnor

Xantaria wrote: »

Conclusion: The Championsystem offers the same bonus to Stamina / Magicka.

THAT IS completely WRONG!

Elemtental Expert +25% elemental dmg <> Elemental defender -25% elemental dmg // 200 CP = +-0%
Thaumaturge +25% poison, disease, magic dmg <> Hardy -25% poison, disease, magic dmg // 200 CP = +-0%

?? <> Thick Scinned -25% DoT dmg // 100 CP = -25%

Mighty +25% physical dmg <> ?? // 100 CP = +25%


So, any examples:

If you have a fire DoT with 0 in elemental expert, your enemy can reduce your DoT dmg -50%
If you have a fire DoT with 100 in elemental expert, your enemy can reduce your DoT dmg -25%

If you have a physical bleeding, you not need to skill CP, your enemy reduce the DoT dmg -25% so or so.


If you have a fire attack with 100 in elemental expert, your enemy can reduce your dmg to +- 0%
If you have a physical attack with 100 in mighty, your enemy cannot reduce your dmg, so you have always +25%


The champion system benefits stamina more than magicka in many points

1. Less points needed to get max dmg
2. Missing "reduce physical dmg" star
3. Better passives (Like "Unchained")

Xantaria wrote: »

In General Magicka abilities have higher base values and also when looking at raw DPS (PvE) values Magicka builds are currently stronger...

WRONG again. For example compare steeltornado with impulse.

teladoy

Stamina NB are good because they have many skills to break free and to escape, but sustain is very bad. Also their passives are very bad for stamina build or even two hand weapons. Even so are better in pvp than Dk.

DK stamina are very good, not solo, but in a team, their passives synergy thousands times better and their skills do more sustain damage than NB by far. In pve are better and in pvp should be also if that dmg over time would be useful that is not.

So NB stamina are good now, but I think DK will come back, they will get some reworks. Zinematix design NB to be more dual wield and Dk two hands. So sure sooner or later the situation will be balanced or reverse.

Magicka builds is more or less than stamina, maybe stamina do more dng now, BUT it all depends in the hands that are being used. When choose stamina or magicka??

Well it depends the skills morph you like more and the role you want to oriented your char to be. I would say magicka is more for mage builds or magicka tanks and stamina melee, bow or stamina tank.

Xantaria

Taonnor wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Conclusion: The Championsystem offers the same bonus to Stamina / Magicka.

THAT IS completely WRONG!

Elemtental Expert +25% elemental dmg <> Elemental defender -25% elemental dmg // 200 CP = +-0%
Thaumaturge +25% poison, disease, magic dmg <> Hardy -25% poison, disease, magic dmg // 200 CP = +-0%

?? <> Thick Scinned -25% DoT dmg // 100 CP = -25%

Mighty +25% physical dmg <> ?? // 100 CP = +25%


So, any examples:

If you have a fire DoT with 0 in elemental expert, your enemy can reduce your DoT dmg -50%
If you have a fire DoT with 100 in elemental expert, your enemy can reduce your DoT dmg -25%

If you have a physical bleeding, you not need to skill CP, your enemy reduce the DoT dmg -25% so or so.


If you have a fire attack with 100 in elemental expert, your enemy can reduce your dmg to +- 0%
If you have a physical attack with 100 in mighty, your enemy cannot reduce your dmg, so you have always +25%


The champion system benefits stamina more than magicka in many points

1. Less points needed to get max dmg
2. Missing "reduce physical dmg" star
3. Better passives (Like "Unchained")

Xantaria wrote: »

In General Magicka abilities have higher base values and also when looking at raw DPS (PvE) values Magicka builds are currently stronger...

WRONG again. For example compare steeltornado with impulse.

@Taonnor
I'm talking about PvE as I said. Why are you talking about Championsystem mitigation? Your enemies in PvE don't have a Championsystem :')

When refering to DPS values in PvE I'm of course referring to Single Target DPS. And sadly Stamina DPS can in no way come close to the DPS values Magicka is reaching at the moment. AoE Steel Tornado DPS is the only thing where Stamina can be stronger than Magicka in PvE. And even that is not always the case (Magicka Bomb, only one person can use Caltrops, etc.). As my last sentence said: PvP is a different story though.

And for PvE DPS the Championsystem is (in the end) equal to everybody. You need longer the more damage sources you have to get to the point but in the end % DPS increase from CP is the same for Stamina and Magicka.

And your point with less points needed to get to full dmg for Stamina builds is not entirely true. This highly depends on your build (It might be true for some PvP builds). But for PvE it's not like Stamina builds only deal Physical damage (I wish they would). In reality they have Magic/Poison Damage, Fire Damage and Physical Damage which means they need to max out Mighty, Elemental Expert and Thaumaturge to get 25% increase on all of their damage.

I agree with your point that a 25% damage reduction for Physical Damage seems reasonable and would balance out PvP.

For the points I made about PvE DPS you may ask other people who are seriously involved into trial leaderboards in PvE. They will give you similar info.

Quoting Dymence as one of those players:

Dymence wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

What world are you living in? Stamina has hit harder ever since 1.6 was dropped and still hits harder...not to say that magicka is bad....just a close second...Now just to clarify I am speaking in terms of PvE....

Not sure what you're on about exactly, but stamina dps is far far behind compared to magicka in PVE right now.

Zinaroth

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

What world are you living in? Stamina has hit harder ever since 1.6 was dropped and still hits harder...not to say that magicka is bad....just a close second...Now just to clarify I am speaking in terms of PvE....

The best DPS builds in both dungeons and trials are magicka based at the moment and has always been.
Sometimes a stamina build surfaces that can surpass some magicka builds on some fights, but never one that would always be above them.

Salmonoid

[quote="I think stamina hits harder from melee and stealth, but lacks any ability to sustain.[/quote]

Stam Sorc has unlimited sustain and highest DPS. So broken right now.

Dymence

Salmonoid wrote: »

I think stamina hits harder from melee and stealth, but lacks any ability to sustain.

Stam Sorc has unlimited sustain and highest DPS. So broken right now.

Stamina sorc? You're kidding, right?

Xantaria

Dymence wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

What world are you living in? Stamina has hit harder ever since 1.6 was dropped and still hits harder...not to say that magicka is bad....just a close second...Now just to clarify I am speaking in terms of PvE....

Not sure what you're on about exactly, but stamina dps is far far behind compared to magicka in PVE right now.

Salmonoid wrote: »

[quote="I think stamina hits harder from melee and stealth, but lacks any ability to sustain.

Stam Sorc has unlimited sustain and highest DPS. So broken right now.[/quote]

/lol

Not true at all. Where does your opinion (not fact) come from? Are you involved into the leaderboards? What is this 'highest DPS' you speak of? In any way Stamina Sorcerer can not keep up with any Magicka build in highend raiding DPS PvE-wise.

Xantaria

Zinaroth wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

magicka has allways been stronger and does more damage.
been that way since beta and is still the same today.

What world are you living in? Stamina has hit harder ever since 1.6 was dropped and still hits harder...not to say that magicka is bad....just a close second...Now just to clarify I am speaking in terms of PvE....

The best DPS builds in both dungeons and trials are magicka based at the moment and has always been.
Sometimes a stamina build surfaces that can surpass some magicka builds on some fights, but never one that would always be above them.

During 1.6 some stamina builds were able to be (almost) always above Magicka. But those were the times of broken armor penetration and cannot be recreated.

zornyan

Here's a good example lads.

I've tried both stamina and magicka on my templar a fair comparison is biting jabs vs puncturing sweep.

Same move just one scales of stam and one of magicka and provide slightly different bonuses.

My magicka templar has 3x willpower jewellery with 3x spell damage enchants. 2 vr15 tourags pact swords, 4 vr14 martial knowledge and 3 seducers vr14

Currently rocking around about 3200 spell power buffed, with 34k magicka, 10k stamina and 23k health. Apprentice mundus

I switched over to stamina using 5x hundings 4x ashen and 3 agility 1 weapon glyph 2 cost reduction.

Biting jabs tooltip was hitting 952 I think, and my puncturing sweeps is hitting 900 nearly.

Now I think when Orsinium drops we'll see more spell damage as the julianos set seems pretty good, and I find even though I get a very small amount more dps from being stamina based, I had far far less survivability

As a magicka templar I can round up a large group of daedra including a few chillfiend / banelords and can kill them without breaking a sweat

My stamplar really struggled, relying on rally and vigor which are no where near as good as magicka heals, dps seemed fairly even, with magicka being more resourceful as things like block/dodge roll don't effect my magicka bar meaning I can keep up dps etc .

Tankqull

to keep it simple just looking at achievable numbers in your char screen

weapondmg >>> spelldmg
weapon crit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>spell crit

Xandryah

Why is Julianos armor set coming only in November 2015, about 1.5 years after Hunding's Rage? Personally this is an indicator that combat system as a whole is very slow in progressing and trustworthy, clear etc in general.

Also, why are there 4 Stamina-based weapons (dual wield/double handed/bow/shield sword) and only 1 Magicka based weapon (destruction staff); that's another indicator how the whole combat system is etc etc...(balance)

Also, patch notes regarding abilities are often long and change a lot; this is another indicator that combat system lacks of some solid fundament, right?

Imo, the game still suffers from the one year delay at launch quite a bit.

Maybe combat system, which is a core part of any videogame (especially MMO) should be more theme-parky instead of sandboxy (less freedom, more clearness); i must honestly say that it's more fun to have a limited amount of (officially efficient) builds (like swtor and also gw2), obtainable in reasonable time (1 month at 4 hours a day) and in fun (varied) ways; and then move on to find the ultimate challenge especially in end-game-activities, that rather require the player to find a strategy in different (maybe even dynamic, unpredictable) situations (developer's role to create diverse activities for everyone (single/group/zerg/pve/pvp/instanced/open)

revonine

Stamina will always hit harder as the CP system is completely biased toward buffing your spell and elemental resist. On top of that a stamina user can just throw all their points into mighty and piercing (in the ritual) but a magicka user has to put points into the apprentice (30 point minimum to unlock Spell Crit) and into ritual.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this point was brought up with Brian Wheeler who was actually surprised.

zornyan

revonine wrote: »

Stamina will always hit harder as the CP system is completely biased toward buffing your spell and elemental resist. On top of that a stamina user can just throw all their points into mighty and piercing (in the ritual) but a magicka user has to put points into the apprentice (30 point minimum to unlock Spell Crit) and into ritual.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this point was brought up with Brian Wheeler who was actually surprised.

True, but magicka users also benefit from nirnhoned weapons, and spell penetration and spell penetration cp passives actually work now.

Anyway just from actually playing the game, it takes roughly a second or two less for my nightblade burst friend to kill a mob than my magicka templar, but he can only take a couple at a time due to being a glass cannon, yet I can take on as many as I fancy due to survivability, not t mention every time I've been ganked in IC , 2 quick heals and I'm back to full heath, and a few puncturing sweeps and their dead.