Do it for the Casual

Defilted

IMO from playing other MMO's with a AH system.

Prices get fixed very quickly in a AH system. The system will then get saturated with the same item being sold right around the same price that could very from 100 to 1000 gold, but nothing in the real way of saving you gold when buying items. IN a real life scenario (the internet) this is not the case because it cost money to manufacture and store these items so when items saturate the market( Low demand or no demand) the price comes down.

In a MMO the only resource for manufacturing/or creating an item is time. There is no Gold pumped in to making something(Everything can be farmed). Also Storage of said items is free and does not really effect the player to a certain degree. The items do not lower in price and therefore we end up with a AH with tons of the same items. The prices do not fluctuate at all or very little.

In GT system all though it requires the dreaded word effort. (In the console version) we cannot see all the prices so we can only price what we feel is fair and what we have seen in prices from our on GT or others we have looked. Throw in the fact that most people are very lazy and are only going to look at 1 or even 2 GT's you get a market that is highly irregular and prices vary greatly.

This is fantastic for the buyer and the seller. The buyer gets a deal if he or she looks and the seller gets a deal when the buyer is lazy and over pays.

Again just my opinion

MikeB

More competition on a global AH means lower and lower prices. You see this now on Guild Traders that are limited to 500 members now, heck just in the past week the price of the new Willpower, Endurance and Agility Jewelry has dropped down to 50k for a preferred piece when they started at 500k on console. The more the item becomes available to put on the market the lower the price for said item drops, its just on a centralized global AH I wouldnt have to spend 2-3 hours to find the ring I want at 50k. I could find it in the centralized AH in 5 min or less for 25k or less because more competition in one spot

sagitter

No sorry.
Casual players? the kind of players that play a bit than jump wagon to the next game? ? Just play single player games or quick story multiplayer games. Guild traders is like a game in a game, AH is just a tool.

Shadesofkin

MikeB wrote: »

More competition on a global AH means lower and lower prices. You see this now on Guild Traders that are limited to 500 members now, heck just in the past week the price of the new Willpower, Endurance and Agility Jewelry has dropped down to 50k for a preferred piece when they started at 500k on console. The more the item becomes available to put on the market the lower the price for said item drops, its just on a centralized global AH I wouldnt have to spend 2-3 hours to find the ring I want at 50k. I could find it in the centralized AH in 5 min or less for 25k or less because more competition in one spot

Your first sentence is categorically untrue in every. single. mmorpg. ever.

FuriousFridge

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Remove guild traders, Replace it with centralized trader I.E. an auction house. Then increase the sales tax by 20% to make sure theres limited inflation. Guild traders are a broken system where the rich get richer and guild leads can sit back while 499 people work for them. Please put an end to ESO corporate welfare they don't share the profits in real life why would they in a video game.

Love the idea of an auction house, but a lot of these "Veteran" MMOers wouldn't like the idea so shhhh until the time is right.

angelyn

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Remove guild traders, Replace it with centralized trader I.E. an auction house. Then increase the sales tax by 20% to make sure theres limited inflation. Guild traders are a broken system where the rich get richer and guild leads can sit back while 499 people work for them. Please put an end to ESO corporate welfare they don't share the profits in real life why would they in a video game.

You are at best, using a bad experience to tar all trading guilds with the same brush, at worse you are completely misinformed and spreading false information.

I'm not sure what guilds you have been part of, but as an officer in a fantastic trade guild I would like to point some things out:

-We don't charge weekly fees
-We don't charge joining fees
-We don't set prices for guild members to sell at
-We accept members of any level and any faction
-The house cut is not set by the guild. It is set by ZOS as a gold sink.
- I can only assume you are referring to the house cut when you talk about the rich getting richer.Guild sales tax does not go into the pockets of GM or officers.
- Most of the sales tax disappears into the ZOS gold sink hole, the rest goes back into the guild bank(to be used to hire kiosks)
- Anyone of our members can look at out guild bank history and they will not see GM/Officers stuffing their pockets with the work of 499 people as you so inaccurately put it.
- GM and officers donate their time,money and items to support the guild and keep it alive.
- Our members also voluntarily donate funds/items etc to keep the guild alive.
- The reason our members voluntarily support the guild, is because we provide a welcoming,helpful atmosphere for them to trade, and they want to help ensure that the guild keeps going.
- It takes work to manage a guild, those who do this do it voluntarily and for free

Just in case you say because I'm an officer, I'm in on the conspiracy you've suggested above : I was a member in the guild a long time before being promoted, as most officers were.

There are good guilds out there , please don't tar them all with the same brush. Remember that the house cut you pay, when making a sale is not set/demanded by gm/officers-it's implemented by ZOS.

EDIT : FYI we are on PC and my playstyle does lean towards casual

Ravalox

Gidorick wrote: »

I approve of and support this message !

Lots of potential there ...

@Gidorick , you've topped yourself (again)

PinoZino

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Remove guild traders, Replace it with centralized trader I.E. an auction house. Then increase the sales tax by 20% to make sure theres limited inflation. Guild traders are a broken system where the rich get richer and guild leads can sit back while 499 people work for them. Please put an end to ESO corporate welfare they don't share the profits in real life why would they in a video game.

lol

We only have about 260 members, but if you like, you may follow me one day. I have 1 to 2 hours work every day with managing the guild. It's not that different in other guilds.

If it's that easy, why don't you start a guild on your own? You don't, because you have no clue. Hard but fair.

And no the 20% will not help at all to avoid inflation. If you have one central point where entire Tramiel may deliver their goods, then everything would be extreme cheap. The economy would crash big time. Looting and farming would have no meaning anymore.

You would kill the economy big time and probably the game.

It's a nay for me.

UltimaJoe777

Callous2208 wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Right because it takes thought to go to guild traders? I'm not saying let's make ESO a socialist game where gear is purely on a token system I'm saying centralize trading so there is actually competitive markets and shoppers don't have to wayshrine across tamriel in search of the mythical ring of agility.

Except Centralized trading doesn't fix the issue you're talking about.

Elaborate

I got two rings of agi on a trader in a less than prime location, for half of what they were going for in the major city traders. Had I went to a global ah, all of the rings would have been posted at the same high price with no deal to be found.

If by 'no deal' you mean both at a cheaper price then the deal you got.

I will defer to the experience of others when it comes to rare gear everyone wants. Thing is, I don't care about those items. But when someone is trying to finish their research, why should they have to search forever for medium gear with a particular trait? If I want to complete 4 piece drop set X at level 35, something that will always be inexpensive due to weak demand, why should I have to search forever to find that piece? It is a horrible experience.

Guild stores are great for comparing prices on purple recipes (back before writs when it actually made sense to buy them) or dreugh wax, but it requires way too much work for many things.

Guild stores also do not serve crafters well as it is foolish to craft anything except the most obvious items since you don't know who will come across your kiosk. If you have guilds with kiosks at multiple levels, I suppose you can optimize placement of gear for sale.

I find I often just give up on looking for what I want because going kiosk to kiosk is so not fun. It would be nice if my search query remained up when moving to new kiosk. If I search for nirnhoned heavy armor 10 seconds ago, that is probably what I will search for again in the neighboring kiosk.

I get that you were trying to be funny and make a point with your first line, but that's an outright lie. In a global AH the first person to sell the ring would have priced it extremely high, and everyone else would have followed suit. If not, someone with more gold than you and I would've bought them all and set the price to his liking (high) since he now controls that market. Your other points are fair but subjective from person to person. On a lighter note, it takes about 5 seconds to re-click search for nirnhoned heavy.

And that is when you use common sense to determine a good or bad deal, or report said player for griefing lol

Prices diminish overtime though so no biggie.

You can't report a player for cornering the market with a global ah. He's technically not doing anything wrong. That's the problem. Also why wait weeks or months for the price to drop on the ah, when I can get it today for a fair price using the system we have now?

I said you could but I never said it would get results lol

Yukonjack

As a casual gamer on ESO (1-3 nights a week), I HATE the current system. AH is simpler, and has been proven popular and efficient. Don't really see the argument here....

Qyrk

Poor horse. Already dead and we're still beating it.

Callous2208

Yukonjack wrote: »

As a casual gamer on ESO (1-3 nights a week), I HATE the current system. AH is simpler, and has been proven popular and efficient. Don't really see the argument here....

I'll give you the simpler. More popular, eh, maybe at one point in time. You'll never be able to prove it's more efficient, that's just plain not true.

MikeB

Its impossible to argue points with those that refuse to recognize logic and think they know it all because they read it on the internet. Global AH is better than the current messed up system that waste more of everyone's time than its worth. A good article on MMO's Economies.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134576/virtual_economic_theory_how_mmos_.php?print=1

Callous2208

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

MrGigglypants wrote: »

Right because it takes thought to go to guild traders? I'm not saying let's make ESO a socialist game where gear is purely on a token system I'm saying centralize trading so there is actually competitive markets and shoppers don't have to wayshrine across tamriel in search of the mythical ring of agility.

Except Centralized trading doesn't fix the issue you're talking about.

Elaborate

I got two rings of agi on a trader in a less than prime location, for half of what they were going for in the major city traders. Had I went to a global ah, all of the rings would have been posted at the same high price with no deal to be found.

If by 'no deal' you mean both at a cheaper price then the deal you got.

I will defer to the experience of others when it comes to rare gear everyone wants. Thing is, I don't care about those items. But when someone is trying to finish their research, why should they have to search forever for medium gear with a particular trait? If I want to complete 4 piece drop set X at level 35, something that will always be inexpensive due to weak demand, why should I have to search forever to find that piece? It is a horrible experience.

Guild stores are great for comparing prices on purple recipes (back before writs when it actually made sense to buy them) or dreugh wax, but it requires way too much work for many things.

Guild stores also do not serve crafters well as it is foolish to craft anything except the most obvious items since you don't know who will come across your kiosk. If you have guilds with kiosks at multiple levels, I suppose you can optimize placement of gear for sale.

I find I often just give up on looking for what I want because going kiosk to kiosk is so not fun. It would be nice if my search query remained up when moving to new kiosk. If I search for nirnhoned heavy armor 10 seconds ago, that is probably what I will search for again in the neighboring kiosk.

I get that you were trying to be funny and make a point with your first line, but that's an outright lie. In a global AH the first person to sell the ring would have priced it extremely high, and everyone else would have followed suit. If not, someone with more gold than you and I would've bought them all and set the price to his liking (high) since he now controls that market. Your other points are fair but subjective from person to person. On a lighter note, it takes about 5 seconds to re-click search for nirnhoned heavy.

Yeah, repeating the search clicking 7 times in Belkarth is fun gaming.

Regarding cornering the market, how long does that last? Are you saying we would have people corning the market on kuta up until now, determining the price? I find that hard to believe. There is a lot of kuta out there. I especially doubt people will be corning the market on multiple level 35 leather items for a particular drop set.

Maybe they will corner the market on high end, max level, new and popular gear, but that does not concern me as I don't have a VR16 character. For the more casual types, we are likely looking for items where it would be too much work for someone to try to corner that market. But, again, those who have experienced auction houses on other MMORPGs might be better at predicting how it would play out.

Reread your last paragraph. This doesn't concern you now, but it will. The things they will not corner will be of little consequence because they will be the items you most likely create or harvest for yourself. Everything, and I mean everything, of value to you that you don't have the time or resources to farm or make for yourself, will be one of the items on the AH being sold by only two guys at a ridiculous price. If you've any experience with mmo auction houses, you would know these items will be "cornered," from launch until the server shuts down.

Callous2208

MikeB wrote: »

Its impossible to argue points with those that refuse to recognize logic and think they know it all because they read it on the internet. Global AH is better than the current messed up system that waste more of everyone's time than its worth. A good article on MMO's Economies.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134576/virtual_economic_theory_how_mmos_.php?print=1

Accuses those of a different opinion, and experience with mmo's of being "logic ignoring know it all's," because they read it on the internet. Links an article from "the internet," to enlighten us...well played.

Yukonjack

Callous2208 wrote: »

Yukonjack wrote: »

As a casual gamer on ESO (1-3 nights a week), I HATE the current system. AH is simpler, and has been proven popular and efficient. Don't really see the argument here....

I'll give you the simpler. More popular, eh, maybe at one point in time. You'll never be able to prove it's more efficient, that's just plain not true.

How is it not more efficient to go to one place and find and list what you want? Less time, easier to navigate, sounds more efficient to me.

FuriousFridge

Callous2208 wrote: »

Yukonjack wrote: »

As a casual gamer on ESO (1-3 nights a week), I HATE the current system. AH is simpler, and has been proven popular and efficient. Don't really see the argument here....

I'll give you the simpler. More popular, eh, maybe at one point in time. You'll never be able to prove it's more efficient, that's just plain not true.

It kind of is... just saying.

Callous2208

Yukonjack wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Yukonjack wrote: »

As a casual gamer on ESO (1-3 nights a week), I HATE the current system. AH is simpler, and has been proven popular and efficient. Don't really see the argument here....

I'll give you the simpler. More popular, eh, maybe at one point in time. You'll never be able to prove it's more efficient, that's just plain not true.

How is it not more efficient to go to one place and find and list what you want? Less time, easier to navigate, sounds more efficient to me.

Ah but convenience while buying is not the same as efficiency. Getting 3 gold for a stack of voidstone ingots, because a hundred thousand people listed them in the same place is not efficient. Not being able to afford one daedric heart because someone bought them all up and is now charging an outlandish amount is not efficient. When I say efficiency I'm wrapping up the total package. Fair pricing on all goods, and the ability to make a decent profit without standing around all day "playing the market," have to be considered as well. I am yet to see an in game AH, where this is the case.

More convenient is the term everyone is looking for. I won't argue with that, initially it is, very much so. If you make it to late game in that system, your opinion very well may change.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

Many of you are only partially correct about the effects of a global AH. Here is what would happen, and I am 100% positive it would from years of playing EA Ultimate Team.

1) The top 5 to 10% of items would cost an insane amount of gold. This would be because someone would buy ALL OF THEM and corner the market. Not just on odd gear like rings of agility either. It would only take 1 person with 1 million gold to turn Tempering Alloys into a 50,000 gold each product. All you have to do is buy up all your competition. With enough gold it's totally doable.

2) Every other item not deemed worth enough to be cornered would take a significant price reduction down to CPU vendor levels. The low hanging fruit guys would just keep undercutting each other.

These two things end up leaving us with an unhealthy economy where everything is either 1000 times more expensive than it should be or virtually worthless. If you're worried about rich people getting richer this is a highway to it.

Now, with that said the current system could use many improvements. I wish guilds could hold 1000 to 2000 instead of 500. I wish I could join more than 5. I also don't understand why a group of 10 can't have a trader if they can afford it. Hell, a group of 1 should if they can afford it.

Also, the auction horse is a fantastic idea.

ZioGio

I have to point out something humorous I noticed between the pro-AH and pro-GT in that they both acknowledge that going from vendor to vendor is a PITA, but for different reasons.

For the buyer, it feels like a waste of time hopping all over the map looking for that one item or the best price, whereas for the seller, it would take too long to go to every vendor to buy up the requisite items to corner a market.

So, I guess we can agree that a lack of a centralized market system makes shopping a chore.

Callous2208

ZioGio wrote: »

I have to point out something humorous I noticed between the pro-AH and pro-GT in that they both acknowledge that going from vendor to vendor is a PITA, but for different reasons.

For the buyer, it feels like a waste of time hopping all over the map looking for that one item or the best price, whereas for the seller, it would take too long to go to every vendor to buy up the requisite items to corner a market.

So, I guess we can agree that a lack of a centralized market system makes shopping a chore.

It does indeed, no arguing that. For myself, on the pro-GT side, the positives are enough for me to overlook that one negative though. I'll spend 10 minutes going to different traders, and saving 20 to 100k gold on a rare item. On the flip side, I'm glad to make money off of even my "common goods," since not everyone on the entire server posts them in the same place, driving price down to the point it's easier to sell it to an npc merchant.

LEGENDARYYY

I've been working 2-3 hours every day since April to create successful trade guilds.

Believe me when I say no GM can sit back, do no work and still maintain a good trader.

CromulentForumID

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

I've been working 2-3 hours every day since April to create successful trade guilds.

Believe me when I say no GM can sit back, do no work and still maintain a good trader.

You probably also spent that long typing up your signature.

Zorrashi

I identify as a casual (play less than 3hrs a week now), and I support the guild trader system. Improvements would be appreciated though. Barely make 3k a week give or take (if even that, I have not really bothered with trading as of late).

This game in particular gives the average player various avenues to gain a profit if only they would seek it out. Where I would have to farm or grind the same variety of plant/NPCs to gather hundreds of an item just to make a decent profit in other MMOs, I can just gain from adventuring and putting effort into searching for the ripest location at which to sell them. I usually don't have to look too far (but then again I seem to have lower standards than most people).
At early game I simply noted certain trends (like the sudden price changes for alchemy reagents once IC released.) Toward endgame it usually boiled down to either posting in the guild store based on their general kiosk location/level range of members or just going to Rawl'kha to undercut their prices in zone chat.

This system is far from perfect, but I like it better than an AH.

eligh0716

That's because an auction house is BORING. If you honestly can't find a guild with a guild trader to join I feel bad for you. Coming from a "casual player" i am in at least 3 guilds with traders. They don't ask nothing in return for the use either. And if it's because you want what your item is worth so what. Someone undercuts you so what. Someone wants to sell a potato for 4 million so what. It's YOU making your own money well it for what you think it's worth. I've made 250k just selling sanded night wood.... And plus the amount of money the gm's spend on a trader is crazy high so look at it as a big investment. Most gm's are far from lazy as it takes a lot of work. Plus they should get a nice cut every well anyway. If it's your business, you get the biggest cut.

Vangy

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Many of you are only partially correct about the effects of a global AH. Here is what would happen, and I am 100% positive it would from years of playing EA Ultimate Team.

1) The top 5 to 10% of items would cost an insane amount of gold. This would be because someone would buy ALL OF THEM and corner the market. Not just on odd gear like rings of agility either. It would only take 1 person with 1 million gold to turn Tempering Alloys into a 50,000 gold each product. All you have to do is buy up all your competition. With enough gold it's totally doable.

2) Every other item not deemed worth enough to be cornered would take a significant price reduction down to CPU vendor levels. The low hanging fruit guys would just keep undercutting each other.

These two things end up leaving us with an unhealthy economy where everything is either 1000 times more expensive than it should be or virtually worthless. If you're worried about rich people getting richer this is a highway to it.

Now, with that said the current system could use many improvements. I wish guilds could hold 1000 to 2000 instead of 500. I wish I could join more than 5. I also don't understand why a group of 10 can't have a trader if they can afford it. Hell, a group of 1 should if they can afford it.

Also, the auction horse is a fantastic idea.

This and this again. As a casual gamer I make money by selling relatively common stuff Like kutas, alchemy ingredients and low level gear. With a common auction house these would be worth diddly squat. And I would never be able to afford high end gear. Sometimes people have no idea what they are asking for. Efficient buying for regular people = efficient buying for monopolies as well. Putting everything in one place just makes it easier for the guys with a gazillion gold to turn the economy into a living hell.

Casdha

I like the system the way it is. I mostly just craft and sell now (because that is all I need) but there is a lot of gold to be made by being in a guild with a decent location and Studying the in game market and knowing the value of items.

When I did take the time to do this I could always find someone who listed something at a great price to sell it quickly. I would buy said items and relist them in the guild I'm in and double or triple my investment within a week.

Anyone can do this but like anything in this game, If you choose to do one thing it takes time away from something else you could be doing. That is the price you pay if you do what you like vs doing what is needed for the other things. I see no problem with that system, it emulates life. Sure it's a game but it's a Role Playing Game

Brrrofski

Yukonjack wrote: »

As a casual gamer on ESO (1-3 nights a week), I HATE the current system. AH is simpler, and has been proven popular and efficient. Don't really see the argument here....

Read the rest of the thread then...

PinoZino

Yukonjack wrote: »

As a casual gamer on ESO (1-3 nights a week), I HATE the current system. AH is simpler, and has been proven popular and efficient. Don't really see the argument here....

Demand and supply relations in a market can be statistically estimated from price, quantity, and other data with sufficient information in the model. This can be done with simultaneous-equation methods of estimation in econometrics. Such methods allow solving for the model-relevant "structural coefficients," the estimated algebraic counterparts of the theory. The Parameter identification problem is a common issue in "structural estimation." Typically, data on exogenous variables (that is, variables other than price and quantity, both of which are endogenous variables) are needed to perform such an estimation. An alternative to "structural estimation" is reduced-form estimation, which regresses each of the endogenous variables on the respective exogenous variables.

Do you understand the above mumbo jumbo? No? Well, it has the same cause why you really don't see the argument. It's rather simple: it's called a lack of knowledge about economy. And it's no big deal, since most people have the same problem.

But I'm not a PITA. Well yeah, a bit, but nevermind, I'll help you out. Here's your homework for today:

Google the words:

"Supply and Demand"
"Inflation"

You're welcome!

Molag_Crow

Agreed. We need an Auction House like you said, because I am so tired of this current crappy guild trader system where I've spent over 70k listing my items, only for them to expire or the guild(s) I'm in to suddenly lose their bid and lose the trader.

Waste of gold and only benefits the minority of leaders etc.