Champion Points frameworks, applying different solutions PVE, PVP campaigns, & Trials

HeroOfNone

Lets talk champion points; some of the issues, solutions, and the game framework surrounding them. This is a look more of a generalized look inspired by @Gidorick & @Rune_Relic , who are focused a bit more on the character systems (and probably better with numbers than I).



The Problem

There a lot of folks doing grind to win to use their 1000+ champion points to dominate PVP and trials. New folks, casuals, anyone that doesn't grind is left in the dust, leaving them horribly under leveled. This also affects us in the PVE side where dungeon challenges and achievements are based on they highest speed players, not the average player.

On the other hand, capping or removing champion points removes a lot of work players put into the game. Alienating folks with that much investment risks a mass exodus of the older players that mentor new ones. We want to give folks reasons to improve but not to the point no one can compete with them, that makes things boring

Solutions: Systems

Some inspiring solutions:
You can read more on @Gidorick 's solution here: CP Active Passive Bar & CP Burn Concept which focuses on slotting active passives and burning through CP points.

You can read more on @Rune_Relic 's solution here: CP - Suggested fix and compromise which focuses on locking thinges to a single constellation per tree.

From my own thoughts and the above I've come up with 2 concepts that need a theory crafter to flesh out better.
Concept A - a straight X amount of points that can be spent in competitive situations (pvp or trials). This would be simple and would not preclude folks from grinding. Say for example folks could only spend 300, this could be 300 across all constellations or all into one. However, to put all 300 into the ritual, you'd still need 900 champion points, so still giving reason to have a high pool. This would get some annoyed though that 600 are unused.

Concept B - a Major, Medium, Minor constellation assignment. The assignments would allow a major to take 120+ points, a medium to take 75-30, and a minor to take 10. This would cap the amount of points allowed in a constellation and prevent folks from having infinite resources, high damage boosts, and impossible armor; but still allow powerful builds with proper planning. This also would still give grinders some advantage like above, where major and mediums paired together under the same sign require an over all high amount.this is less simple than concept A, and REALLY needs a theory crafter to look at it for a balanced model

Solutions: PVP Campaigns

So first off...
The non-vet campaign - we need to drop any champion point bonus. This is a campaign where new folks get used to the game and get their first taste of PVP. There is no reason someone should be getting any veteran bonus in them. I can not see any solution from the varying systems that will work well or not frustrate new players with their lacking power. If we get enough high levels playing down there maybe offer another campaign.

For the Veteran campaigns:
Unrestricted - same as it is now, unlimited CP applies, high level grinders verses high level grinders. Folks know what they are getting into joining here.

High points - using concept A from above, this would be a 1200-900 CP cap campaign (or 2-3 major constellations from concept . This would still be restrictive to some, but would stop the specter of a 3600 CP plater just stomping g through everything

Moderate point - this would be around 900 - 600 CP points with concept A (a few majors and mediums with concept . This should be a spot most folks will be around the start of next year.

Low points - this would be around 600 - 300 CP points from concept A (or just 1 major, medium, & minor with concept . @Gidorick & @Rune_Relic's solutions would be about in this range. This would get folks a foot hold into PVP, but grinders would find less benefit here

No points - just like the non-veteran campaign, new vets have a place to play when they have barely any points. I feel this is an important option to keep.

unrestricted Emperors - adding to these campaign rules and improving the Emperorship, lift CP restrictions when crowned, or at least boost their effects, giving added incentive to the high levels to try for it.

Solutions: Trials

Several concepts need to change with trials as it is. As earlier posts showed, points are only affected by time; not by skill, deaths, or the lower levels. This means the ones that grind the most, not necessarily the most skilled, will win. There are a few ways we can handle this:

CP party max total - where a group is allowed a max number of Champion points to be assigned to be counted as a valid run. This would mean healers or tanks could skirt low on CPS to give them to DPS to make better use. A group could also run with lowbies or without members to secure more champion points to use.

Overflow CP hurts score - give each member a base amount of points, regardless of totals, and each point they assign over that counts as - 5 to score. This doesn't prevent folks from over spending, but hopefully they will be thrifty in their use.

Straight restriction of points - using concept A for about 300 points (or concept B with a major and a few mediums) will keep the trials difficult for the gear it produces. Thus is around where I see @Gidorick & @Rune_Relic 's solutions touching.

Solutions: PVE

I feel that despite most systems we've discussed, let the players use all their champion points in PVE situations. Some one that has managed to grind out however many points has spent a long time invested into this game already. If they are leveling an alt, grinding a piece of gear, or whatever. If they manage to do 40k to a boss while the lowbie can only do 10k, so be it.

Scaling dungeons and PVE content should not be measured by these high CP user. Realisticallyit should be set to be challenging for someone with 90 CPs, and less difficult for ones with 300. After that, just let folks enjoy an easier grind for dungeons and challenges they may have already done 50+ times.

Hopefully this spurs some thought and gets some ways to cap/not cap CP in the future. Feel free to refine this more in replies, I left it ambiguous I'm some areas expecting as much

UltimaJoe777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcSY19994xc

Gidorick

Generally I agree with ZOS' decision to keep the rules of PVE and PVP the same, but I'm liking the idea of different CP rules for different aspects of the game. I am all for changing how players view and use CPs in their games. They should be seen and used more like equipment and buffs than permanent stats increase.

If ZOS were to go this route I would hope we could get load-out options. No CPs in the non-vet campaign seems like a no-brainer... I think one of the things ZOS needs to be careful of is splitting the playerbase too far. If they make too many campaigns there won't be enough people in each to keep them interesting.

I kind of love the idea of the major and minor CP slots. I think that could very well solve many issues with the CP system and preserve the diversity of builds.

I'm interested in seeing if ZOS does anything beyond the CP cap and catch-up.

Rook_Master

What they should have done is capped CP gain at say, 100 CP per month. That way you don't have no-lifers getting crazy vertical progression like they do now.

Also, the overall cap should be lower, like 1200. Then you have to choose where to allocate points and can't just max everything.

HeroOfNone

Rook_Master wrote: »

What they should have done is capped CP gain at say, 100 CP per month. That way you don't have no-lifers getting crazy vertical progression like they do now.

Also, the overall cap should be lower, like 1200. Then you have to choose where to allocate points and can't just max everything.

Still hard to bring the new players up to speed. They would benefit more from removing enlightenment if you meet the max, and the max increases a 100 each month. New players would be enlightened till they catch up.

Still, with increasing the level it leaves for a lot of poor play and builds unless they raise the bar for everyone, which then alienates new folks. Limiting it to different campaigns as suggested helps give options to a larger range.

JWT

or ya know~ just git gud

HeroOfNone

JWT wrote: »

or ya know~ just git gud

After how many months of grinding? =3

Actually how fast would folks even be able to get to 300 CP or 900 CP? 1 to 50 I've heard being done in 12 hours, but the fates EXP after that might be 200k an hour from places like Crackwood cave, no clue if that was improved elsewhere after the patch, but still a lot of hours into grinding that.


Have fun with that rather than playing a game =s

nimander99

I say leave the Champion System alone, it's what keeps me playing (not the only thing), just remove CP's from PVP problem solved disaster averted...

HeroOfNone

nimander99 wrote: »

I say leave the Champion System alone, it's what keeps me playing (not the only thing), just remove CP's from PVP problem solved disaster averted...

That's likely to alienate folks that worked hard for those CP points to ask what the point is to the points she PVP (what a lot of folks participate in end level) won't give an option to use what they ground up. Just looking to give them the option but not to the point they are dominating folks that wouldn't have the time to grind as long.

Also restrictive to PVP alone wouldn't address trials times being shattered with high CP grinders or that most of the challenges for dungeons are being scaled to the moderate CP players

HeroOfNone

Seems like they went with Concept A

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

NEW FEATURES / UPDATES / BIG CHANGES - BASE-GAME PATCH

Champion System Updates
We have reduced the XP required to earn Champion Points for those with smaller amounts in order to create a fairer gameplay experience. We are also capping the total number of Champion Points that can be spent.

• At this time, you will not be able to allocate more than 501 Champion Points.
  • Anyone that has over 501 Champion Points when the Orsinium DLC game pack is published will have all their Champion Points reset, and will only be able to allocate 501 Champion Points.
  • You will not lose any points over 501, you just won’t be able to spend them.
  • You can continue to earn Champion Points over the cap, but won’t be able to spend them until the next time the cap is raised.
• The amount of XP required to gain a Champion Point now scales with the number of total Champion Points you have.
  • If you don’t have any Champion Points, you will earn them very quickly.
  • If you have a lot of Champion Points, you will earn them slower.

Concept A - a straight X amount of points that can be spent in competitive situations (pvp or trials). This would be simple and would not preclude folks from grinding. Say for example folks could only spend 300, this could be 300 across all constellations or all into one. However, to put all 300 into the ritual, you'd still need 900 champion points, so still giving reason to have a high pool. This would get some annoyed though that 600 are unused.

But did it in a blanket approach, rather than offering alternatives and uncapping the PVE side. Might be simpler to code, but likely to make some feel cheated of their points. There will still be value to getting 501+ though, as illustrated above.