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Has Kagrenac's Hope Become the 2.1 Version of Forward Camps?

  • Teargrants
    Teargrants
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    eliisra wrote: »
    Well, it's probably in combination with other things.

    Zerg buffs, higher TTK, passives and cloak "fix", for example.

    Fights never end, because a zerg can revive faster than any smaller force can dps. There's no way you can guard all dead bodies when outnumbered. Always a dozen Kagrenac's Hope NB's cloaking around getting people up in 2 seconds, popping like mushrooms.

    Than there's the set together with other passives. With this set and Battle Resurrection on NB, I can revive a player while cloaked the entire duration. Intended? With this set on templar+ full passives, I revive so fast that interrupts are futile. Can also pop new 17 seconds invisi potion and revive everyone nearby before it runs out.

    But not all is bad. At least you get bigger def/attack ticks now, if you actually win lol.

    Yeah I've lost so many amazing battles with Cinn 2 v 10ing or so where we literally kill 6 of them only to have the remaining four just stop attacking and everyone goes into battle ress formation and 2 people can't stop 4 people from ressing everyone else back up.

    I've had fights in IC sewers against PvE zergs that were the same. It's like the moment someone dies 1 or 2 people just run to them and start ressing them. If you are already fighting outnumbered, standing on everyones corpses while trying to kill everyone else is just not possible.
    The only good counter I've found to this running small mans in the sewers is to pull their grps into a long tunnel when they spot you, then move forward through the tunnel slowly killing them one by one.

    Keep battles though it's pretty much impossible to stop rezing outside of the inner unless you have more numbers. I see raids leave 3-4 ppl on the bottom floor of a tower while the rest push up to our grp above with the remaining 20. We wipe the 20, then have to respond to another grp on the wall. Those ppl on the bottom floor literally do nothing but wait for their raid to wipe and us to move off for a few sec, then run up and everything is rezed in about 10 sec.

    At a certain point it reaches critical mass where the superior numbers we've been wipping in between their rezing have left a carpet of enough dead bodies spread out far enough that we can never stop the rezing.
    Edited by Teargrants on October 1, 2015 12:43AM
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  • Xsorus
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    I hate to be that person who brings up DAOC, but i'm going to be that person.

    It had a rez penalty... didn't last long..like a minute if I remember... The biggy though was the fact that game was heavily buff based..and when you died you lost all your buffs..So when ya rezzed not only did ya get the penalty but you also had to be rebuffed so you could actually do something in combat worth anything.

  • Joy_Division
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    This was not an issue before ZoS married the best magicka DPS set with the best healer utility bonus. Now every magicka based player is a insta-resser,
  • Pain In The Axe
    Pain In The Axe
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    I just think its funny that people are just figuring this out. All the good groups have been aware of this since it came out
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  • Teargrants
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    This was not an issue before ZoS married the best magicka DPS set with the best healer utility bonus. Now every magicka based player is a insta-resser,
    I'm sorry, what?
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  • Docmandu
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    Xsorus wrote: »
    I hate to be that person who brings up DAOC, but i'm going to be that person.

    It had a rez penalty... didn't last long..like a minute if I remember... The biggy though was the fact that game was heavily buff based..and when you died you lost all your buffs..So when ya rezzed not only did ya get the penalty but you also had to be rebuffed so you could actually do something in combat worth anything.

    ML8 Perfecter - Cure Rez sickness... http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/master-levels-abilities#Perfecter just sayin :-)


    Also.. people complain about a templar being able to rez quickly.. boy would they have hated Egg of youth! :pensive:
    Edited by Docmandu on October 1, 2015 10:41AM
  • ScruffyWhiskers
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    This was not an issue before ZoS married the best magicka DPS set with the best healer utility bonus. Now every magicka based player is a insta-resser,

    Yeah, that was the sarcastic point I was trying to make before. There is definitely some quirky design going on here. I'm not asking for perfect symmetry between Magicka and Stamina but when you look at things like the high end CP passives, the weapon power weapon enchants, you start to wonder what the "vision" is.

    It's almost like they said, hey we need to throw a little bone here for a craftable spell power set equivalent to Hunding's....errr ok lets just add it to Kag's. Not that I am complaining (much). I like my Kag's even if it does let the Emolator roast me pretty easily.
  • timidobserver
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    I guess the nerf kagrenac campaign has starting. We must be running out of stuff to nerf....
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  • remedios17
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    Alcast wrote: »
    Best solution that I can think of to this is to remove the 25% decrease time for the set and make the spell power 5 piece bonus 324 spell damage v16 gold. Or better yet change the 25% decrease time to increase damage by 25% any time you cast a spell while invisible. That seems more than fair.

    Edit to remove my assertion that this isn't a problem. Having thought it over I might have been a little too hasty. Although I still firmly believe that the set should have the 25% increased damage while invisible and a further buff to the spell power 5 piece bonus and if you want to keep the reduced rez time that's fine....I really don't care.

    Oh and make some spell power enchants for weapons too.

    The 25% faster res was always with this set, they just added the spelldamage bonus to make 8 trait sets more powerful...but I guess that extra spelldamage is quite a bit too much >.>


    While we are here we should nerf hundings rage 5 piece weapon dmg bonus cause it is higher then krag and only requires 5 traits.... OP xD I think it is TOO much....

    nerf this nerf that nerf for everyone XD XD



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  • Zheg
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    I guess the nerf kagrenac campaign has starting. We must be running out of stuff to nerf....

    I guess the nerf reading campaign has started. We must be running of out people who can read through even the OP, much less the follow-up posts reaffirming that a nerf to kag's wouldn't be favored.

    Rez sickness, cooldowns on rezzing, increasing the rez duration, and others have all been suggested. But I guess we used words that were too big or something.
    Edited by Zheg on October 1, 2015 1:42PM
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  • timidobserver
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    Zheg wrote: »
    I guess the nerf kagrenac campaign has starting. We must be running out of stuff to nerf....

    I guess the nerf reading campaign has started. We must be running of out people who can read through even the OP, much less the follow-up posts reaffirming that a nerf to kag's wouldn't be favored.

    Rez sickness, cooldowns on rezzing, increasing the rez duration, and others have all been suggested. But I guess we used words that were too big or something.

    The main idea of the thread is that Kagrenac's Hope is a problem. If ZOS agrees they will just nerf/remove it rather than expending the resources to implement some kind of convoluted penalty system. So, yeh I see a nerf to the set as a potential outcome of the thread, thus my post.
    Edited by timidobserver on October 1, 2015 1:52PM
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  • SkylarkAU
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    Some good ideas above but I'll keep spit balling.. the ability morphs of caltrops and flare could be adjusted to introduce new mechanics that slow down or prevent player rezzing for their effect duration..

    So for example AC caltrops could set players off balance on cast (acting as an interrupt), or perhaps encases bodies for x seconds making them unable to be rezzed, or encase the body in a way that a rezzing player must spend an extra x seconds rezzing regardless of their buffs to rez speed.

    Flare could provide a flat area debuff to rez speed etc.
    Edited by SkylarkAU on October 1, 2015 2:00PM
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  • AhPook_Is_Here
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    Could just put the rez bonus on Hist bark and take the 5p hist bark bonus away. Can't block while rezzing anyway!
    “Whatever.”
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  • Gerardopg
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    Or they can take out the Rez bonus for kagrenacs hope and give a similar spell damage like hundings rage weapon damage no body will complain about this because everyone one use kagrenacs for the spell damage
  • Ezareth
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    Zheg wrote: »
    I guess the nerf kagrenac campaign has starting. We must be running out of stuff to nerf....

    I guess the nerf reading campaign has started. We must be running of out people who can read through even the OP, much less the follow-up posts reaffirming that a nerf to kag's wouldn't be favored.

    Rez sickness, cooldowns on rezzing, increasing the rez duration, and others have all been suggested. But I guess we used words that were too big or something.

    The main idea of the thread is that Kagrenac's Hope is a problem. If ZOS agrees they will just nerf/remove it rather than expending the resources to implement some kind of convoluted penalty system. So, yeh I see a nerf to the set as a potential outcome of the thread, thus my post.

    No one is saying Kagrenac's Hope is the problem, they're saying that it only exacerbates an existing problem. This was happening back in 1.6. It is only even more prevalent now, especially since so many people are running the set. Battle ressing is becoming another nail in the coffin for small group combat while promoting the zergs that are killing PvP.

    Your comments as usual add nothing intelligent to the conversation. If you have something to say, by all means...
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  • Joy_Division
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    Teargrants wrote: »
    This was not an issue before ZoS married the best magicka DPS set with the best healer utility bonus. Now every magicka based player is a insta-resser,
    I'm sorry, what?
    3L5HQXr.jpg

    Shouldn't your helmet be a flower pot or something? :wink:
  • timidobserver
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    I guess the nerf kagrenac campaign has starting. We must be running out of stuff to nerf....

    I guess the nerf reading campaign has started. We must be running of out people who can read through even the OP, much less the follow-up posts reaffirming that a nerf to kag's wouldn't be favored.

    Rez sickness, cooldowns on rezzing, increasing the rez duration, and others have all been suggested. But I guess we used words that were too big or something.

    The main idea of the thread is that Kagrenac's Hope is a problem. If ZOS agrees they will just nerf/remove it rather than expending the resources to implement some kind of convoluted penalty system. So, yeh I see a nerf to the set as a potential outcome of the thread, thus my post.

    No one is saying Kagrenac's Hope is the problem, they're saying that it only exacerbates an existing problem. This was happening back in 1.6. It is only even more prevalent now, especially since so many people are running the set. Battle ressing is becoming another nail in the coffin for small group combat while promoting the zergs that are killing PvP.

    Your comments as usual add nothing intelligent to the conversation. If you have something to say, by all means...
    Maybe you are not, but the thread title definitely points toward Kagrenac's being the cause of a problem similar to the problem caused by forward camps. It draws a parallel between Kagrenac's and forwards camps not battle ressing. The entire OP is about Kagrenac's giving large groups an advantage not battle ressing. General battle ressing is not mentioned once.

    An identical or similar problem implies a similar solution.
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  • Psilent
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    Zheg wrote: »
    For full disclosure, I was never a fan of forward camps as I felt they enabled players to pvp sloppily and have almost zero consequences since they could just rez up 15 feet from the fight and join the battle seconds after dying. But, this isn't a debate about the merits of forward camps. ZOS removed them for a reason, and while all I can do is guess, I'd say it's an educated guess that they were removed because forward camps tended to favor players with larger numbers and whoever was in a better position to have people peel off from the fight to make sure a fresh forward camp was put down. Death had little penalty.

    With 2.1, sets were tweaked, and I think players are starting to finalize what the 2.1 meta will look like. In my experience so far, 2.1 is feeling very, very similar to the 1.1-1.4 meta when forward camps allowed the entire group that you wiped to respawn and bomb your backline 5 seconds later. The groups I've run with in pvp have had a quick rezzer that wore the set, but since 2.1 makes kag's hope the absolute best crafted set for spell damage, it seems like everyone and their mother runs this now.

    The reduced time to kill tends to make group fights favor numbers more heavily now, as bad reaction time/calls can be compensated for by the extra heals/ultimates that having more numbers enables. By itself, this would be manageable - players are harder to kill, and it's harder to kill a larger group, but you can still accomplish it. However, when you combine this with how many people seem to be in kag's hope (whether people have just caught on that in 2.1's reduced TTK it's incredibly powerful to be able to rez quickly, or whether people are just running the set because it's the best crafted magicka dps set), the capacity to take on larger numbers begins to dwindle. It almost seems exponentially related to numbers - as soon as you reach a sweet spot of outnumbering the other side, it becomes very easy to have players peel off for literally 1 second and rez. Prior to 2.1, after wiping a group you needed to pay attention to anyone still left alive because if they weren't monitored they could rez up the entire group. In 2.1, I almost want to say preventing rezzes feels like it doesn't matter because it's a near impossible task when you're outnumbered and rezzes can literally be completed in 1 second. How many people can you be in melee range for and bashing at once while still doing sufficient dmg/heals to fight those that were still alive? Against larger numbers now, I find myself literally wondering, "do we camp the two groups that we just wiped so they don't get rezzed by the randoms running around with kag's hope, or do we push the objective and finish taking the keep/whatever" - realizing that doing so we will mean we have near-unbeatable numbers pouring in behind us in 10 seconds when everyone is rezzed up.

    I know our group is still testing strategies and trying to figure out a way to combat the meta, and it certainly doesn't help that the majority of my faction seems to still be in IC on pop-locked campaigns when EP (and sometimes AD) are in regular Cyrodiil in almost full numbers, but I'd suggest to @ZOS_BrianWheeler to at least keep an eye on it in the event that this snowballs further and we're left with pseudo-forward camps running around in a crafted set. I'd certainly like to see what the fights are like with close to even numbers (maybe this is no longer a problem at that point?), but as things stand right now, I'd love for better tools to combat significantly larger numbers since prox det isn't sufficient for that purpose (and yes, I know everyone asks for this, and I'm not providing any suggestions, but I'd still like for more tools to be available). Our group discussed the addition of a rez sickness where your stats are temporarily diminished upon being rezzed, and that may end up being an interesting change that helps balance the scale and reward skilled play over numbers.

    Again, I'd like to see what the fights look like when we have more even numbers across the board and everyone is out of IC - as kag's hope may not even matter at that point, but as it stands now, after regularly fighting 2-3 times our number in Trueflame NA PC (and seeing similar fights on Azura's), it's quickly getting old to see the name of someone you've already killed 5 times in a single engagement show up on your death recap :)

    It's starting to feel like death has little penalty again.

    I don't believe the problem lies in resurrecting, but how small 12 to 16 player groups approach combat strategy. The current meta with small groups is what I like to call the "AoE Wrecking Ball" strategy. They basically form up on the crown and then go from point A to point B in a ball spamming AoE's; anyone who happens to be in the way of this ball, gets wrecked. Now I do not consider this a "zerg ball", but it does have a few fallacies like the classic "zerg ball".

    The primary fallacy deals with resurrecting, because once they pass by its like the eye of a hurricane; you are perfectly safe to go out into the open and resurrect your allies. I have done this numerous times, even times when the group is reforming at point B and turning around for another sweep. No one will even try to stop me from resurrecting, every so often a light attack comes my way, but I figured that was someone trying to build ultimate for their next pass. Is this a problem with resurrecting or a problem with the current small group meta?


  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    Psilent wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    For full disclosure, I was never a fan of forward camps as I felt they enabled players to pvp sloppily and have almost zero consequences since they could just rez up 15 feet from the fight and join the battle seconds after dying. But, this isn't a debate about the merits of forward camps. ZOS removed them for a reason, and while all I can do is guess, I'd say it's an educated guess that they were removed because forward camps tended to favor players with larger numbers and whoever was in a better position to have people peel off from the fight to make sure a fresh forward camp was put down. Death had little penalty.

    With 2.1, sets were tweaked, and I think players are starting to finalize what the 2.1 meta will look like. In my experience so far, 2.1 is feeling very, very similar to the 1.1-1.4 meta when forward camps allowed the entire group that you wiped to respawn and bomb your backline 5 seconds later. The groups I've run with in pvp have had a quick rezzer that wore the set, but since 2.1 makes kag's hope the absolute best crafted set for spell damage, it seems like everyone and their mother runs this now.

    The reduced time to kill tends to make group fights favor numbers more heavily now, as bad reaction time/calls can be compensated for by the extra heals/ultimates that having more numbers enables. By itself, this would be manageable - players are harder to kill, and it's harder to kill a larger group, but you can still accomplish it. However, when you combine this with how many people seem to be in kag's hope (whether people have just caught on that in 2.1's reduced TTK it's incredibly powerful to be able to rez quickly, or whether people are just running the set because it's the best crafted magicka dps set), the capacity to take on larger numbers begins to dwindle. It almost seems exponentially related to numbers - as soon as you reach a sweet spot of outnumbering the other side, it becomes very easy to have players peel off for literally 1 second and rez. Prior to 2.1, after wiping a group you needed to pay attention to anyone still left alive because if they weren't monitored they could rez up the entire group. In 2.1, I almost want to say preventing rezzes feels like it doesn't matter because it's a near impossible task when you're outnumbered and rezzes can literally be completed in 1 second. How many people can you be in melee range for and bashing at once while still doing sufficient dmg/heals to fight those that were still alive? Against larger numbers now, I find myself literally wondering, "do we camp the two groups that we just wiped so they don't get rezzed by the randoms running around with kag's hope, or do we push the objective and finish taking the keep/whatever" - realizing that doing so we will mean we have near-unbeatable numbers pouring in behind us in 10 seconds when everyone is rezzed up.

    I know our group is still testing strategies and trying to figure out a way to combat the meta, and it certainly doesn't help that the majority of my faction seems to still be in IC on pop-locked campaigns when EP (and sometimes AD) are in regular Cyrodiil in almost full numbers, but I'd suggest to @ZOS_BrianWheeler to at least keep an eye on it in the event that this snowballs further and we're left with pseudo-forward camps running around in a crafted set. I'd certainly like to see what the fights are like with close to even numbers (maybe this is no longer a problem at that point?), but as things stand right now, I'd love for better tools to combat significantly larger numbers since prox det isn't sufficient for that purpose (and yes, I know everyone asks for this, and I'm not providing any suggestions, but I'd still like for more tools to be available). Our group discussed the addition of a rez sickness where your stats are temporarily diminished upon being rezzed, and that may end up being an interesting change that helps balance the scale and reward skilled play over numbers.

    Again, I'd like to see what the fights look like when we have more even numbers across the board and everyone is out of IC - as kag's hope may not even matter at that point, but as it stands now, after regularly fighting 2-3 times our number in Trueflame NA PC (and seeing similar fights on Azura's), it's quickly getting old to see the name of someone you've already killed 5 times in a single engagement show up on your death recap :)

    It's starting to feel like death has little penalty again.

    I don't believe the problem lies in resurrecting, but how small 12 to 16 player groups approach combat strategy. The current meta with small groups is what I like to call the "AoE Wrecking Ball" strategy. They basically form up on the crown and then go from point A to point B in a ball spamming AoE's; anyone who happens to be in the way of this ball, gets wrecked. Now I do not consider this a "zerg ball", but it does have a few fallacies like the classic "zerg ball".

    The primary fallacy deals with resurrecting, because once they pass by its like the eye of a hurricane; you are perfectly safe to go out into the open and resurrect your allies. I have done this numerous times, even times when the group is reforming at point B and turning around for another sweep. No one will even try to stop me from resurrecting, every so often a light attack comes my way, but I figured that was someone trying to build ultimate for their next pass. Is this a problem with resurrecting or a problem with the current small group meta?


    They're letting you ress because Zergballs farm AP and more players to kill = More AP. That's a completely different issue altogether.
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  • Psilent
    Psilent
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    Psilent wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    For full disclosure, I was never a fan of forward camps as I felt they enabled players to pvp sloppily and have almost zero consequences since they could just rez up 15 feet from the fight and join the battle seconds after dying. But, this isn't a debate about the merits of forward camps. ZOS removed them for a reason, and while all I can do is guess, I'd say it's an educated guess that they were removed because forward camps tended to favor players with larger numbers and whoever was in a better position to have people peel off from the fight to make sure a fresh forward camp was put down. Death had little penalty.

    With 2.1, sets were tweaked, and I think players are starting to finalize what the 2.1 meta will look like. In my experience so far, 2.1 is feeling very, very similar to the 1.1-1.4 meta when forward camps allowed the entire group that you wiped to respawn and bomb your backline 5 seconds later. The groups I've run with in pvp have had a quick rezzer that wore the set, but since 2.1 makes kag's hope the absolute best crafted set for spell damage, it seems like everyone and their mother runs this now.

    The reduced time to kill tends to make group fights favor numbers more heavily now, as bad reaction time/calls can be compensated for by the extra heals/ultimates that having more numbers enables. By itself, this would be manageable - players are harder to kill, and it's harder to kill a larger group, but you can still accomplish it. However, when you combine this with how many people seem to be in kag's hope (whether people have just caught on that in 2.1's reduced TTK it's incredibly powerful to be able to rez quickly, or whether people are just running the set because it's the best crafted magicka dps set), the capacity to take on larger numbers begins to dwindle. It almost seems exponentially related to numbers - as soon as you reach a sweet spot of outnumbering the other side, it becomes very easy to have players peel off for literally 1 second and rez. Prior to 2.1, after wiping a group you needed to pay attention to anyone still left alive because if they weren't monitored they could rez up the entire group. In 2.1, I almost want to say preventing rezzes feels like it doesn't matter because it's a near impossible task when you're outnumbered and rezzes can literally be completed in 1 second. How many people can you be in melee range for and bashing at once while still doing sufficient dmg/heals to fight those that were still alive? Against larger numbers now, I find myself literally wondering, "do we camp the two groups that we just wiped so they don't get rezzed by the randoms running around with kag's hope, or do we push the objective and finish taking the keep/whatever" - realizing that doing so we will mean we have near-unbeatable numbers pouring in behind us in 10 seconds when everyone is rezzed up.

    I know our group is still testing strategies and trying to figure out a way to combat the meta, and it certainly doesn't help that the majority of my faction seems to still be in IC on pop-locked campaigns when EP (and sometimes AD) are in regular Cyrodiil in almost full numbers, but I'd suggest to @ZOS_BrianWheeler to at least keep an eye on it in the event that this snowballs further and we're left with pseudo-forward camps running around in a crafted set. I'd certainly like to see what the fights are like with close to even numbers (maybe this is no longer a problem at that point?), but as things stand right now, I'd love for better tools to combat significantly larger numbers since prox det isn't sufficient for that purpose (and yes, I know everyone asks for this, and I'm not providing any suggestions, but I'd still like for more tools to be available). Our group discussed the addition of a rez sickness where your stats are temporarily diminished upon being rezzed, and that may end up being an interesting change that helps balance the scale and reward skilled play over numbers.

    Again, I'd like to see what the fights look like when we have more even numbers across the board and everyone is out of IC - as kag's hope may not even matter at that point, but as it stands now, after regularly fighting 2-3 times our number in Trueflame NA PC (and seeing similar fights on Azura's), it's quickly getting old to see the name of someone you've already killed 5 times in a single engagement show up on your death recap :)

    It's starting to feel like death has little penalty again.

    I don't believe the problem lies in resurrecting, but how small 12 to 16 player groups approach combat strategy. The current meta with small groups is what I like to call the "AoE Wrecking Ball" strategy. They basically form up on the crown and then go from point A to point B in a ball spamming AoE's; anyone who happens to be in the way of this ball, gets wrecked. Now I do not consider this a "zerg ball", but it does have a few fallacies like the classic "zerg ball".

    The primary fallacy deals with resurrecting, because once they pass by its like the eye of a hurricane; you are perfectly safe to go out into the open and resurrect your allies. I have done this numerous times, even times when the group is reforming at point B and turning around for another sweep. No one will even try to stop me from resurrecting, every so often a light attack comes my way, but I figured that was someone trying to build ultimate for their next pass. Is this a problem with resurrecting or a problem with the current small group meta?


    They're letting you ress because Zergballs farm AP and more players to kill = More AP. That's a completely different issue altogether.

    I do not believe they are letting players resurrect to farm AP. The reason I say this is because I have fought the OP's group many times on Trueflame NA. I have also fought the enemies the OP has faced and the key is to not be in a ball, but to spread out and camp the dead bodies. Even if it means 1 player per 2 dead bodies, because a single bash interrupts a player trying to resurrect and a single call for help in TS prevents whole groups from being revived.

    Most of the time, unless its a HUGE zerg, that the group I run with loses is due to us staying together to well that we forget the 8 players we just killed behind us who got resurrected. When we camp the bodies, they usually release and we can do our victory shouts in TS. =)

    On the notion of zergs, some times, your going to have a day like I had yesterday where your group of 12 or 16 or 20 just cannot measure up to the 50+ AD outside Chalman Keep. What you do is take down as many of the players as possible and play the best you can play until more players for your faction logon. Cyrodiil was designed for large scale combat, so it doesn't surprise me to see larger groups winning against smaller groups.

    Calling for reinforcements is not a weakness; its a strategy in and of itself.

  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Docmandu wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    I hate to be that person who brings up DAOC, but i'm going to be that person.

    It had a rez penalty... didn't last long..like a minute if I remember... The biggy though was the fact that game was heavily buff based..and when you died you lost all your buffs..So when ya rezzed not only did ya get the penalty but you also had to be rebuffed so you could actually do something in combat worth anything.

    ML8 Perfecter - Cure Rez sickness... http://darkageofcamelot.com/content/master-levels-abilities#Perfecter just sayin :-)


    Also.. people complain about a templar being able to rez quickly.. boy would they have hated Egg of youth! :pensive:

    Cure Rez sickness had a 15 second cast time in a game where a fart in the wind would interrupt ya..it was used after the battle was over basically.

    and Egg had a long cool down...and was balanced by rez sickness and no buffs on rez.

  • hammayolettuce
    hammayolettuce
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Psilent wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    For full disclosure, I was never a fan of forward camps as I felt they enabled players to pvp sloppily and have almost zero consequences since they could just rez up 15 feet from the fight and join the battle seconds after dying. But, this isn't a debate about the merits of forward camps. ZOS removed them for a reason, and while all I can do is guess, I'd say it's an educated guess that they were removed because forward camps tended to favor players with larger numbers and whoever was in a better position to have people peel off from the fight to make sure a fresh forward camp was put down. Death had little penalty.

    With 2.1, sets were tweaked, and I think players are starting to finalize what the 2.1 meta will look like. In my experience so far, 2.1 is feeling very, very similar to the 1.1-1.4 meta when forward camps allowed the entire group that you wiped to respawn and bomb your backline 5 seconds later. The groups I've run with in pvp have had a quick rezzer that wore the set, but since 2.1 makes kag's hope the absolute best crafted set for spell damage, it seems like everyone and their mother runs this now.

    The reduced time to kill tends to make group fights favor numbers more heavily now, as bad reaction time/calls can be compensated for by the extra heals/ultimates that having more numbers enables. By itself, this would be manageable - players are harder to kill, and it's harder to kill a larger group, but you can still accomplish it. However, when you combine this with how many people seem to be in kag's hope (whether people have just caught on that in 2.1's reduced TTK it's incredibly powerful to be able to rez quickly, or whether people are just running the set because it's the best crafted magicka dps set), the capacity to take on larger numbers begins to dwindle. It almost seems exponentially related to numbers - as soon as you reach a sweet spot of outnumbering the other side, it becomes very easy to have players peel off for literally 1 second and rez. Prior to 2.1, after wiping a group you needed to pay attention to anyone still left alive because if they weren't monitored they could rez up the entire group. In 2.1, I almost want to say preventing rezzes feels like it doesn't matter because it's a near impossible task when you're outnumbered and rezzes can literally be completed in 1 second. How many people can you be in melee range for and bashing at once while still doing sufficient dmg/heals to fight those that were still alive? Against larger numbers now, I find myself literally wondering, "do we camp the two groups that we just wiped so they don't get rezzed by the randoms running around with kag's hope, or do we push the objective and finish taking the keep/whatever" - realizing that doing so we will mean we have near-unbeatable numbers pouring in behind us in 10 seconds when everyone is rezzed up.

    I know our group is still testing strategies and trying to figure out a way to combat the meta, and it certainly doesn't help that the majority of my faction seems to still be in IC on pop-locked campaigns when EP (and sometimes AD) are in regular Cyrodiil in almost full numbers, but I'd suggest to @ZOS_BrianWheeler to at least keep an eye on it in the event that this snowballs further and we're left with pseudo-forward camps running around in a crafted set. I'd certainly like to see what the fights are like with close to even numbers (maybe this is no longer a problem at that point?), but as things stand right now, I'd love for better tools to combat significantly larger numbers since prox det isn't sufficient for that purpose (and yes, I know everyone asks for this, and I'm not providing any suggestions, but I'd still like for more tools to be available). Our group discussed the addition of a rez sickness where your stats are temporarily diminished upon being rezzed, and that may end up being an interesting change that helps balance the scale and reward skilled play over numbers.

    Again, I'd like to see what the fights look like when we have more even numbers across the board and everyone is out of IC - as kag's hope may not even matter at that point, but as it stands now, after regularly fighting 2-3 times our number in Trueflame NA PC (and seeing similar fights on Azura's), it's quickly getting old to see the name of someone you've already killed 5 times in a single engagement show up on your death recap :)

    It's starting to feel like death has little penalty again.

    I don't believe the problem lies in resurrecting, but how small 12 to 16 player groups approach combat strategy. The current meta with small groups is what I like to call the "AoE Wrecking Ball" strategy. They basically form up on the crown and then go from point A to point B in a ball spamming AoE's; anyone who happens to be in the way of this ball, gets wrecked. Now I do not consider this a "zerg ball", but it does have a few fallacies like the classic "zerg ball".

    The primary fallacy deals with resurrecting, because once they pass by its like the eye of a hurricane; you are perfectly safe to go out into the open and resurrect your allies. I have done this numerous times, even times when the group is reforming at point B and turning around for another sweep. No one will even try to stop me from resurrecting, every so often a light attack comes my way, but I figured that was someone trying to build ultimate for their next pass. Is this a problem with resurrecting or a problem with the current small group meta?


    Spreading out and camping dead bodies works when you either have enough numerical advantage to spare such a thing, or have free respawn on a very near by keep which thus mitigates that risk. To be fair, we are always fighting against the tide on Trueflame. We're either the only blue group attempting anything (usually) outside of IC, we're fighting 2-3 to 1 odds, or both at the same time. It is what it is, but spreading out and thus thinning out your offense works when you have ground to defend, not ground to take. You might find your strategy would need to shift if you had to be on the offense against motivated and numerous defenders for the majority of your play time.
    Edited by hammayolettuce on October 1, 2015 8:46PM
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  • Fruitdog
    Fruitdog
    ✭✭✭✭
    Zheg wrote: »
    Yonkit wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    To clarify yonk's post, my concern comes from not just one night, but a few weeks. It's starting to seem like a trend, which indicates it's becoming the meta. Perhaps the thread title is misleading, but I feel like the OP frames the problem as rezzing in general inside cyrodiil. I'd prefer for kags to remain unnerfed (and other sets buffed so we have more build variety), and for other solutions to be implemented. A few have already been tossed out as ideas.

    The problem with kags is that it seems to strongly favor higher numbers when paired with everything else I keep repeating myself on, so I fail to see how it in any way correlates to a 'come from behind'. Given the lag among the general pvp population to pick up on the current meta, if rezzing is already starting to seem like a problem, I'd be worried that it will only get worse as more people migrate towards it. So, no, I'm not asking for nerfs to anything, just asking that ZOS monitors now rather than 3 months from now should the time come when action does need to be taken.

    TF is kind of dumb at the moment because of the population imbalance in regular cyrodiil, and heavily outnumbered fights are what I've based my feedback on. Fights with less overwhelming numbers aren't as ridiculous, so maybe the solution lies in addressing the incentive to stack 2-3+ raid groups in one spot (of which every alliance is guilty of). Either way, ZOS should be paying attention to it. For those of you who fail at reading comprehension, that does not mean ZOS must nerf kags.

    #nerfsorcsinstead

    MY POST WAS PERFECTLY CLEAR YOU JERK

    kagits... always so moody. This is why I'm a dog person :)

    sup
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Psilent wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Psilent wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    For full disclosure, I was never a fan of forward camps as I felt they enabled players to pvp sloppily and have almost zero consequences since they could just rez up 15 feet from the fight and join the battle seconds after dying. But, this isn't a debate about the merits of forward camps. ZOS removed them for a reason, and while all I can do is guess, I'd say it's an educated guess that they were removed because forward camps tended to favor players with larger numbers and whoever was in a better position to have people peel off from the fight to make sure a fresh forward camp was put down. Death had little penalty.

    With 2.1, sets were tweaked, and I think players are starting to finalize what the 2.1 meta will look like. In my experience so far, 2.1 is feeling very, very similar to the 1.1-1.4 meta when forward camps allowed the entire group that you wiped to respawn and bomb your backline 5 seconds later. The groups I've run with in pvp have had a quick rezzer that wore the set, but since 2.1 makes kag's hope the absolute best crafted set for spell damage, it seems like everyone and their mother runs this now.

    The reduced time to kill tends to make group fights favor numbers more heavily now, as bad reaction time/calls can be compensated for by the extra heals/ultimates that having more numbers enables. By itself, this would be manageable - players are harder to kill, and it's harder to kill a larger group, but you can still accomplish it. However, when you combine this with how many people seem to be in kag's hope (whether people have just caught on that in 2.1's reduced TTK it's incredibly powerful to be able to rez quickly, or whether people are just running the set because it's the best crafted magicka dps set), the capacity to take on larger numbers begins to dwindle. It almost seems exponentially related to numbers - as soon as you reach a sweet spot of outnumbering the other side, it becomes very easy to have players peel off for literally 1 second and rez. Prior to 2.1, after wiping a group you needed to pay attention to anyone still left alive because if they weren't monitored they could rez up the entire group. In 2.1, I almost want to say preventing rezzes feels like it doesn't matter because it's a near impossible task when you're outnumbered and rezzes can literally be completed in 1 second. How many people can you be in melee range for and bashing at once while still doing sufficient dmg/heals to fight those that were still alive? Against larger numbers now, I find myself literally wondering, "do we camp the two groups that we just wiped so they don't get rezzed by the randoms running around with kag's hope, or do we push the objective and finish taking the keep/whatever" - realizing that doing so we will mean we have near-unbeatable numbers pouring in behind us in 10 seconds when everyone is rezzed up.

    I know our group is still testing strategies and trying to figure out a way to combat the meta, and it certainly doesn't help that the majority of my faction seems to still be in IC on pop-locked campaigns when EP (and sometimes AD) are in regular Cyrodiil in almost full numbers, but I'd suggest to @ZOS_BrianWheeler to at least keep an eye on it in the event that this snowballs further and we're left with pseudo-forward camps running around in a crafted set. I'd certainly like to see what the fights are like with close to even numbers (maybe this is no longer a problem at that point?), but as things stand right now, I'd love for better tools to combat significantly larger numbers since prox det isn't sufficient for that purpose (and yes, I know everyone asks for this, and I'm not providing any suggestions, but I'd still like for more tools to be available). Our group discussed the addition of a rez sickness where your stats are temporarily diminished upon being rezzed, and that may end up being an interesting change that helps balance the scale and reward skilled play over numbers.

    Again, I'd like to see what the fights look like when we have more even numbers across the board and everyone is out of IC - as kag's hope may not even matter at that point, but as it stands now, after regularly fighting 2-3 times our number in Trueflame NA PC (and seeing similar fights on Azura's), it's quickly getting old to see the name of someone you've already killed 5 times in a single engagement show up on your death recap :)

    It's starting to feel like death has little penalty again.

    I don't believe the problem lies in resurrecting, but how small 12 to 16 player groups approach combat strategy. The current meta with small groups is what I like to call the "AoE Wrecking Ball" strategy. They basically form up on the crown and then go from point A to point B in a ball spamming AoE's; anyone who happens to be in the way of this ball, gets wrecked. Now I do not consider this a "zerg ball", but it does have a few fallacies like the classic "zerg ball".

    The primary fallacy deals with resurrecting, because once they pass by its like the eye of a hurricane; you are perfectly safe to go out into the open and resurrect your allies. I have done this numerous times, even times when the group is reforming at point B and turning around for another sweep. No one will even try to stop me from resurrecting, every so often a light attack comes my way, but I figured that was someone trying to build ultimate for their next pass. Is this a problem with resurrecting or a problem with the current small group meta?


    They're letting you ress because Zergballs farm AP and more players to kill = More AP. That's a completely different issue altogether.

    I do not believe they are letting players resurrect to farm AP. The reason I say this is because I have fought the OP's group many times on Trueflame NA. I have also fought the enemies the OP has faced and the key is to not be in a ball, but to spread out and camp the dead bodies. Even if it means 1 player per 2 dead bodies, because a single bash interrupts a player trying to resurrect and a single call for help in TS prevents whole groups from being revived.

    Most of the time, unless its a HUGE zerg, that the group I run with loses is due to us staying together to well that we forget the 8 players we just killed behind us who got resurrected. When we camp the bodies, they usually release and we can do our victory shouts in TS. =)

    On the notion of zergs, some times, your going to have a day like I had yesterday where your group of 12 or 16 or 20 just cannot measure up to the 50+ AD outside Chalman Keep. What you do is take down as many of the players as possible and play the best you can play until more players for your faction logon. Cyrodiil was designed for large scale combat, so it doesn't surprise me to see larger groups winning against smaller groups.

    Calling for reinforcements is not a weakness; its a strategy in and of itself.

    We see you rezzing. We hear it reported in TS. We dispatch people to deal with the situation within the limits of practicality. Some of your ressers get bashed, crushing shocked, deep breathed.

    I don't have an issue with battle ressing. It just happens to be difficult keeping track of the 2 dozen of so medics who happen to also be nukers.

    I just don't think it's a good idea to marry the set with the best spellpower with the best healer power. Let alone balanced. How many people out there are running the Ogram's Scales set, also an 8 trait set, as compared to Kagrenacs? One set is really really really good and the other one just sucks.
    Edited by Joy_Division on October 1, 2015 10:10PM
  • Anazasi
    Anazasi
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Been running this set for very very long time. Its was good, its better now, its life in pvp.
    noun An·a·sa·zi \ˌä-nə-ˈsä-zē\
    Dominion Knights
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    PVP Guild (East Coast Prime Time)
    http://DominionKnights.info
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    Guild Leader
    @Draconise
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  • Fruitdog
    Fruitdog
    ✭✭✭✭
    I haven't read a single post in this thread but I just want to pop in and say that you are a bad person for wanting this set deleted from the game, Zheg.
  • Ara_Valleria
    Ara_Valleria
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't really get why fast res is a problem. If they res its all the better for you. You get to kill them again and get moar AP.
    Then teabag them for trying. Win win ?


    Edited by Ara_Valleria on October 2, 2015 4:04PM
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  • Zorgon_The_Revenged
    Zorgon_The_Revenged
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Has Kagrenacs hope become the 2.1 version of forward camps?

    I guess it depends on your idea of a forward camp.........but I would like to set some players on fire with a torch.

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