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Has Kagrenac's Hope Become the 2.1 Version of Forward Camps?

  • ScruffyWhiskers
    ScruffyWhiskers
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    Best solution that I can think of to this is to remove the 25% decrease time for the set and make the spell power 5 piece bonus 324 spell damage v16 gold. Or better yet change the 25% decrease time to increase damage by 25% any time you cast a spell while invisible. That seems more than fair.

    Edit to remove my assertion that this isn't a problem. Having thought it over I might have been a little too hasty. Although I still firmly believe that the set should have the 25% increased damage while invisible and a further buff to the spell power 5 piece bonus and if you want to keep the reduced rez time that's fine....I really don't care.

    Oh and make some spell power enchants for weapons too.
    Edited by ScruffyWhiskers on September 30, 2015 3:43PM
  • themdogesbite
    themdogesbite
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    Honestly id rather just have camps back, then the huge as raids wouldnt even bother ressing eacother like cockroaches and instead just spawn on the camp. One of the biggest issues we face as a small/medium sized group is the constant and never ending ressing. ._.
    :]
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    We're getting 1 player in our small group to be a batplar with kag set. His char is new though so it's a bit of a grind to get the Battle Resurrection passive from Support line.

    But when he's done you have 1.5" per resurrection and a 6" ultimate that makes you untargetable. In that time you can rez 2 players easy out of a 5 man group and there's nothing the opposition can do about it. On top of rezing them with full HP (another part of Templar passive Master Ritualist) and a 10k damage shield thanks to CS passive Revival (Lord tree).

    We're tempted for max trolling to have every one else run the Phoenix set too, but that would be only for poops and giggles :tongue:

    Bat-ressing never works against decent players in my experience. 90% of the time Cinn tries it she is interrupted by shards, Fear, or even bashed by NPCs while trying to ress me. The best way to do it is just pop an immovable pot or immovable ability and laugh as your ress is guaranteed.

    It really doesn't help that they added the passive that makes you take 25% less damage while ressing which added on top of other passive defenses and 2.1 and you may as well forget killing someone while they ress.

    It just seems so incredibly poorly designed.

    The immovable pot can certainly help against fear, spears etc. but Bats are still a necessity. A target that is CC immune can still be interrupted, he just won't be CCed and doesn't have to CC break. I make a habit out of Crushing Shock interrupting rezzers with Immovable active who think it's protecting them against interrupts.

    However all interrupts (Crushing Shock, Toppling Charge, Venom Arrow and bash/interrupt...that's all of them) are single target abilities and thus can't be used against someone invisible through bats.

    Thus Batplar, immovable pot user with Kag's Hope is de facto the best resser and unstoppable by all means.

    EDIT: I have been corrected by a friendly DK. Deep Breath, the morph of Inhale, is an AoE interrupt that works through bat-rezzing and can stop people from rezzing if spammed. And you do have to spam it on cooldown if a bat-rez is taking place, as it only takes a second for the batplar to get his friend up.
    Edited by Maulkin on September 30, 2015 4:51PM
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  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    Class Representative
    I did misunderstand your previous posts

    Edited by Joy_Division on September 30, 2015 5:16PM
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    We're getting 1 player in our small group to be a batplar with kag set. His char is new though so it's a bit of a grind to get the Battle Resurrection passive from Support line.

    But when he's done you have 1.5" per resurrection and a 6" ultimate that makes you untargetable. In that time you can rez 2 players easy out of a 5 man group and there's nothing the opposition can do about it. On top of rezing them with full HP (another part of Templar passive Master Ritualist) and a 10k damage shield thanks to CS passive Revival (Lord tree).

    We're tempted for max trolling to have every one else run the Phoenix set too, but that would be only for poops and giggles :tongue:

    Bat-ressing never works against decent players in my experience. 90% of the time Cinn tries it she is interrupted by shards, Fear, or even bashed by NPCs while trying to ress me. The best way to do it is just pop an immovable pot or immovable ability and laugh as your ress is guaranteed.

    It really doesn't help that they added the passive that makes you take 25% less damage while ressing which added on top of other passive defenses and 2.1 and you may as well forget killing someone while they ress.

    It just seems so incredibly poorly designed.

    The immovable pot can certainly help against fear, spears etc. but Bats are still a necessity. A target that is CC immune can still be interrupted, he just won't be CCed and doesn't have to CC break. I make a habit out of Crushing Shock interrupting rezzers with Immovable active who think it's protecting them against interrupts.

    However all interrupts (Crushing Shock, Toppling Charge, Venom Arrow and bash/interrupt...that's all of them) are single target abilities and thus can't be used against someone invisible through bats.

    Thus Batplar, immovable pot user with Kag's Hope is de facto the best resser and unstoppable by all means.

    EDIT: I have been corrected by a friendly DK. Deep Breath, the morph of Inhale, is an AoE interrupt that works through bat-rezzing and can stop people from rezzing if spammed. And you do have to spam it on cooldown if a bat-rez is taking place, as it only takes a second for the batplar to get his friend up.

    Well I can tell you for a fact I fight templars all the time battle ress and can't be interrupted (at least with Bash). I don't battle ress so I couldn't tell you what they're doing to become immune to interrupts but I'm assuming it is immovable or immovable pots.
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  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    We're getting 1 player in our small group to be a batplar with kag set. His char is new though so it's a bit of a grind to get the Battle Resurrection passive from Support line.

    But when he's done you have 1.5" per resurrection and a 6" ultimate that makes you untargetable. In that time you can rez 2 players easy out of a 5 man group and there's nothing the opposition can do about it. On top of rezing them with full HP (another part of Templar passive Master Ritualist) and a 10k damage shield thanks to CS passive Revival (Lord tree).

    We're tempted for max trolling to have every one else run the Phoenix set too, but that would be only for poops and giggles :tongue:

    Bat-ressing never works against decent players in my experience. 90% of the time Cinn tries it she is interrupted by shards, Fear, or even bashed by NPCs while trying to ress me. The best way to do it is just pop an immovable pot or immovable ability and laugh as your ress is guaranteed.

    It really doesn't help that they added the passive that makes you take 25% less damage while ressing which added on top of other passive defenses and 2.1 and you may as well forget killing someone while they ress.

    It just seems so incredibly poorly designed.

    The immovable pot can certainly help against fear, spears etc. but Bats are still a necessity. A target that is CC immune can still be interrupted, he just won't be CCed and doesn't have to CC break. I make a habit out of Crushing Shock interrupting rezzers with Immovable active who think it's protecting them against interrupts.

    However all interrupts (Crushing Shock, Toppling Charge, Venom Arrow and bash/interrupt...that's all of them) are single target abilities and thus can't be used against someone invisible through bats.

    Thus Batplar, immovable pot user with Kag's Hope is de facto the best resser and unstoppable by all means.

    EDIT: I have been corrected by a friendly DK. Deep Breath, the morph of Inhale, is an AoE interrupt that works through bat-rezzing and can stop people from rezzing if spammed. And you do have to spam it on cooldown if a bat-rez is taking place, as it only takes a second for the batplar to get his friend up.

    Well I can tell you for a fact I fight templars all the time battle ress and can't be interrupted (at least with Bash). I don't battle ress so I couldn't tell you what they're doing to become immune to interrupts but I'm assuming it is immovable or immovable pots.

    I'll make you a video when I can.

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  • Yonkit
    Yonkit
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    There's like... Zero issue with this set at all, it's a solid set. @Ezareth to solve the issue you encountered, which yes, is annoying, just cap it. AvA rez speed and Kag stack, Templar rez speed gets negated.

    That way every has the same rez speed if they wear kag and have the AvA passives, I wouldn't go out of my way to change this set as it's not imbalanced, and fyi you can't rez someone even if you have an immovable pot or CC immunity and get bashed, you still get interrupted, it's just that the Templar + AvA + Kag rez speed is legitimately instantaneous there's no time to bash them because in the .5s gobal cooldown between bashes they rez.

    Either cap it, or leave it as is... Set is perfectly fine, just gotta target the templars using it as other mag builds using it are still bashable as they're rez speed is only 2.5s as opposed to 0.

    Err edit, tell Cin to let herself get CC'd right before she battle rezzes, if she uses invis bats anyway, if she doesn't then yea, she'll still get bashed, I always let myself get CC'd first on my DK, then break it, pop bats immediately, and rez, they can't do crap about it.
    Edited by Yonkit on September 30, 2015 6:22PM
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  • Zheg
    Zheg
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    It's been said already, but the problem arising from 2.1 isn't kags hope alone, but rather the combination of increased ttk, passives, kags hope, and barely any death penalty. By itself, 25% reduced rez time isn't game breaking. But you'll start to miss the forest if you only focus on that one tree. In the fights I've had that are more balanced in numbers, you don't notice this as much. But when numbers start to ramp up on one side, all of these things can align to create near impossible situations for smaller groups that weren't so much a problem in 1.6.

    So, it'd be nice if rezzing in cryodiil could at least be put on ZOS' radar if this ends up turning into a bigger issue than it currently is. How long exactly did it take for nirn to be addressed? Right.
    Edited by Zheg on September 30, 2015 6:38PM
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  • Rylana
    Rylana
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    Id rather not play even more horse simulator Zheg. I am all about the Kag's, especially when it causes a come from behind win when the stack moves off.

    And its not like everyone in Cyro is a templar or anything.
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  • _Chaos
    _Chaos
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    Rylana wrote: »
    Id rather not play even more horse simulator Zheg. I am all about the Kag's, especially when it causes a come from behind win when the stack moves off.

    And its not like everyone in Cyro is a templar or anything.

    Entire raids are stacking it, which isn't the issue. It's when multiple raids start stacking and battle rezzing when it's 40v20. At what point do we make a death count for something? 20v20 and battle rezzing is honorable, 40v20 and the 40 are rezzing their dead while we fight the other raid, that's bologna.
    'Chaos
  • Yonkit
    Yonkit
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    Rylana wrote: »
    Id rather not play even more horse simulator Zheg. I am all about the Kag's, especially when it causes a come from behind win when the stack moves off.

    And its not like everyone in Cyro is a templar or anything.

    Yee.
    Zheg wrote: »
    It's been said already, but the problem arising from 2.1 isn't kags hope alone, but rather the combination of increased ttk, passives, kags hope, and barely any death penalty. By itself, 25% reduced rez time isn't game breaking. But you'll start to miss the forest if you only focus on that one tree. In the fights I've had that are more balanced in numbers, you don't notice this as much. But when numbers start to ramp up on one side, all of these things can align to create near impossible situations for smaller groups that weren't so much a problem in 1.6.

    So, it'd be nice if rezzing in cryodiil could at least be put on ZOS' radar if this ends up turning into a bigger issue than it currently is. How long exactly did it take for nirn to be addressed? Right.

    You can't wipe an intelligent larger group with an intelligent smaller group anymore... It's just.. No... If they goof up and do something really stupid sure, but no... The Battle Spirit changes are just laughable changes to make The Blob even more mandatory.
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  • TBois
    TBois
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    How would y'all feel about a rez sickness anytime you rez? It would solve some IC problems too, but it may hurt small groups more than large in Cyrodiil battles.
    Edited by TBois on September 30, 2015 7:58PM
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  • Alcast
    Alcast
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    Best solution that I can think of to this is to remove the 25% decrease time for the set and make the spell power 5 piece bonus 324 spell damage v16 gold. Or better yet change the 25% decrease time to increase damage by 25% any time you cast a spell while invisible. That seems more than fair.

    Edit to remove my assertion that this isn't a problem. Having thought it over I might have been a little too hasty. Although I still firmly believe that the set should have the 25% increased damage while invisible and a further buff to the spell power 5 piece bonus and if you want to keep the reduced rez time that's fine....I really don't care.

    Oh and make some spell power enchants for weapons too.

    The 25% faster res was always with this set, they just added the spelldamage bonus to make 8 trait sets more powerful...but I guess that extra spelldamage is quite a bit too much >.>
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  • Gerardopg
    Gerardopg
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    Lol I never think on this, actually I use kagrenacs hope just for the sd bonus, is the best crated set for magicka dps, and a lot of people use them for the same reason, and like the new dungeons sets are almost impossible to get so this is the only way to get a decent spell damage, so you have max magicka, magicka regen, almost like two times spell damage because I think is like 126 in other set bonus, so you get 224 plus the health, jajaja pls if you need to nerf kagrenacs nerf the Rez bonus no the spell damage XD
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    Yonkit wrote: »
    There's like... Zero issue with this set at all, it's a solid set. @Ezareth to solve the issue you encountered, which yes, is annoying, just cap it. AvA rez speed and Kag stack, Templar rez speed gets negated.

    That way every has the same rez speed if they wear kag and have the AvA passives, I wouldn't go out of my way to change this set as it's not imbalanced, and fyi you can't rez someone even if you have an immovable pot or CC immunity and get bashed, you still get interrupted, it's just that the Templar + AvA + Kag rez speed is legitimately instantaneous there's no time to bash them because in the .5s gobal cooldown between bashes they rez.

    Either cap it, or leave it as is... Set is perfectly fine, just gotta target the templars using it as other mag builds using it are still bashable as they're rez speed is only 2.5s as opposed to 0.

    Err edit, tell Cin to let herself get CC'd right before she battle rezzes, if she uses invis bats anyway, if she doesn't then yea, she'll still get bashed, I always let myself get CC'd first on my DK, then break it, pop bats immediately, and rez, they can't do crap about it.

    I know for a fact I bash Mojican twice *before* his ress went off. I've seen this before. I often bash templars 3-4 times in a row but some of them are just immune to it. Maybe it is CC immunity or something /shrug

    Yes the set itself is fine if they put some limitations in place on battle ressing in general.

    It's rare that I die before Cinn so neither of us have much practice at the whole ressing stuff.
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  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    How would y'all feel about a rez sickness anytime you rez? It would solve some IC problems too, but it may hurt small groups more than large in Cyrodiil battles.

    I'm not a big fan of the concept of ress sickness and there are many times where being ressed by a teammate makes sense.

    I think the best option is just a cooldown from the point of death before another player can ress you. This way it allows a group of players who are winning a battle to complete their victory instead of having to kill all the same people over and over.
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  • Cinnamon_Spider
    Cinnamon_Spider
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    Yonkit wrote: »
    There's like... Zero issue with this set at all, it's a solid set. @Ezareth to solve the issue you encountered, which yes, is annoying, just cap it. AvA rez speed and Kag stack, Templar rez speed gets negated.

    That way every has the same rez speed if they wear kag and have the AvA passives, I wouldn't go out of my way to change this set as it's not imbalanced, and fyi you can't rez someone even if you have an immovable pot or CC immunity and get bashed, you still get interrupted, it's just that the Templar + AvA + Kag rez speed is legitimately instantaneous there's no time to bash them because in the .5s gobal cooldown between bashes they rez.

    Either cap it, or leave it as is... Set is perfectly fine, just gotta target the templars using it as other mag builds using it are still bashable as they're rez speed is only 2.5s as opposed to 0.

    Err edit, tell Cin to let herself get CC'd right before she battle rezzes, if she uses invis bats anyway, if she doesn't then yea, she'll still get bashed, I always let myself get CC'd first on my DK, then break it, pop bats immediately, and rez, they can't do crap about it.
    It isn't just cc though. If you can't get the rez option to show up in time, bats can wear off before you finish the res. There have been too many times where I just can't target the player I need to res even though I'm standing in the same place where I just had the option before hitting my bats button. I'm not using this set, nor do I have alliance 10 res on my temp, so that second or two is a big deal.
    Also does cc immunity work for the new guard bash bs? You can't break out of that and it seems they can just do it repeatedly.
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  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    Yonkit wrote: »
    There's like... Zero issue with this set at all, it's a solid set. @Ezareth to solve the issue you encountered, which yes, is annoying, just cap it. AvA rez speed and Kag stack, Templar rez speed gets negated.

    That way every has the same rez speed if they wear kag and have the AvA passives, I wouldn't go out of my way to change this set as it's not imbalanced, and fyi you can't rez someone even if you have an immovable pot or CC immunity and get bashed, you still get interrupted, it's just that the Templar + AvA + Kag rez speed is legitimately instantaneous there's no time to bash them because in the .5s gobal cooldown between bashes they rez.

    Either cap it, or leave it as is... Set is perfectly fine, just gotta target the templars using it as other mag builds using it are still bashable as they're rez speed is only 2.5s as opposed to 0.

    Err edit, tell Cin to let herself get CC'd right before she battle rezzes, if she uses invis bats anyway, if she doesn't then yea, she'll still get bashed, I always let myself get CC'd first on my DK, then break it, pop bats immediately, and rez, they can't do crap about it.
    It isn't just cc though. If you can't get the rez option to show up in time, bats can wear off before you finish the res. There have been too many times where I just can't target the player I need to res even though I'm standing in the same place where I just had the option before hitting my bats button. I'm not using this set, nor do I have alliance 10 res on my temp, so that second or two is a big deal.
    Also does cc immunity work for the new guard bash bs? You can't break out of that and it seems they can just do it repeatedly.

    Yeah the new guard bash unbreakable CC + 1shot macro by mage guards is amazing. gotta love it!
    Edited by frozywozy on September 30, 2015 8:48PM
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    • Fix health desync
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    • Fix server lag
  • FMonk
    FMonk
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    Yonkit wrote: »
    There's like... Zero issue with this set at all, it's a solid set. @Ezareth to solve the issue you encountered, which yes, is annoying, just cap it. AvA rez speed and Kag stack, Templar rez speed gets negated.

    That way every has the same rez speed if they wear kag and have the AvA passives, I wouldn't go out of my way to change this set as it's not imbalanced, and fyi you can't rez someone even if you have an immovable pot or CC immunity and get bashed, you still get interrupted, it's just that the Templar + AvA + Kag rez speed is legitimately instantaneous there's no time to bash them because in the .5s gobal cooldown between bashes they rez.

    Either cap it, or leave it as is... Set is perfectly fine, just gotta target the templars using it as other mag builds using it are still bashable as they're rez speed is only 2.5s as opposed to 0.

    Err edit, tell Cin to let herself get CC'd right before she battle rezzes, if she uses invis bats anyway, if she doesn't then yea, she'll still get bashed, I always let myself get CC'd first on my DK, then break it, pop bats immediately, and rez, they can't do crap about it.

    I know for a fact I bash Mojican twice *before* his ress went off. I've seen this before. I often bash templars 3-4 times in a row but some of them are just immune to it. Maybe it is CC immunity or something /shrug

    Yes the set itself is fine if they put some limitations in place on battle ressing in general.

    It's rare that I die before Cinn so neither of us have much practice at the whole ressing stuff.

    Rezzing is ALWAYS interruptable with an ability that specifically interrupts, like bashing or crushing shock. Even if the player is CC immune (from break free or immovable pots/ability), the rez will still always get interrupted, they just won't get any additional CC.
  • k2blader
    k2blader
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    Some, I would even say most, people aren't using Kagrenac's 5-piece............
    Disabling the grass may improve performance.
  • Cinnamon_Spider
    Cinnamon_Spider
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    FMonk wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Yonkit wrote: »
    There's like... Zero issue with this set at all, it's a solid set. @Ezareth to solve the issue you encountered, which yes, is annoying, just cap it. AvA rez speed and Kag stack, Templar rez speed gets negated.

    That way every has the same rez speed if they wear kag and have the AvA passives, I wouldn't go out of my way to change this set as it's not imbalanced, and fyi you can't rez someone even if you have an immovable pot or CC immunity and get bashed, you still get interrupted, it's just that the Templar + AvA + Kag rez speed is legitimately instantaneous there's no time to bash them because in the .5s gobal cooldown between bashes they rez.

    Either cap it, or leave it as is... Set is perfectly fine, just gotta target the templars using it as other mag builds using it are still bashable as they're rez speed is only 2.5s as opposed to 0.

    Err edit, tell Cin to let herself get CC'd right before she battle rezzes, if she uses invis bats anyway, if she doesn't then yea, she'll still get bashed, I always let myself get CC'd first on my DK, then break it, pop bats immediately, and rez, they can't do crap about it.

    I know for a fact I bash Mojican twice *before* his ress went off. I've seen this before. I often bash templars 3-4 times in a row but some of them are just immune to it. Maybe it is CC immunity or something /shrug

    Yes the set itself is fine if they put some limitations in place on battle ressing in general.

    It's rare that I die before Cinn so neither of us have much practice at the whole ressing stuff.

    Rezzing is ALWAYS interruptable with an ability that specifically interrupts, like bashing or crushing shock. Even if the player is CC immune (from break free or immovable pots/ability), the rez will still always get interrupted, they just won't get any additional CC.
    Yeah I was bashed and stopped from ressing someone in that same fight he mentioned and I chug immov pots in those kind of fights. I can't recall now if it was still up or on cooldown at the time.
    Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
    Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
    Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
    Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
    Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD

    Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Generally speaking..even in a game like DAOC...if you didn't kill a large number of people at the start of a Zerg Bomb..they'd generally be able to res if they were half way competent.

    You pretty much have to instant gib large groups.
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    FMonk wrote: »
    Ezareth wrote: »
    Yonkit wrote: »
    There's like... Zero issue with this set at all, it's a solid set. @Ezareth to solve the issue you encountered, which yes, is annoying, just cap it. AvA rez speed and Kag stack, Templar rez speed gets negated.

    That way every has the same rez speed if they wear kag and have the AvA passives, I wouldn't go out of my way to change this set as it's not imbalanced, and fyi you can't rez someone even if you have an immovable pot or CC immunity and get bashed, you still get interrupted, it's just that the Templar + AvA + Kag rez speed is legitimately instantaneous there's no time to bash them because in the .5s gobal cooldown between bashes they rez.

    Either cap it, or leave it as is... Set is perfectly fine, just gotta target the templars using it as other mag builds using it are still bashable as they're rez speed is only 2.5s as opposed to 0.

    Err edit, tell Cin to let herself get CC'd right before she battle rezzes, if she uses invis bats anyway, if she doesn't then yea, she'll still get bashed, I always let myself get CC'd first on my DK, then break it, pop bats immediately, and rez, they can't do crap about it.

    I know for a fact I bash Mojican twice *before* his ress went off. I've seen this before. I often bash templars 3-4 times in a row but some of them are just immune to it. Maybe it is CC immunity or something /shrug

    Yes the set itself is fine if they put some limitations in place on battle ressing in general.

    It's rare that I die before Cinn so neither of us have much practice at the whole ressing stuff.

    Rezzing is ALWAYS interruptable with an ability that specifically interrupts, like bashing or crushing shock. Even if the player is CC immune (from break free or immovable pots/ability), the rez will still always get interrupted, they just won't get any additional CC.

    I'll look at my video of the fight and see. I'm pretty certain each bash hit him and he still ressed the player.
    Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
    Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
    Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
    Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
    Ezareth PvP on Youtube
  • BigTone
    BigTone
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    k2blader wrote: »
    Some, I would even say most, people aren't using Kagrenac's 5-piece............

    That would be a big mistake.

    What is my solution to this issue? Leave the set alone. 8 trait set should be powerful. However increase standard rez times by 300%. You want to rez your buddy? You have to earn it. Still give templars their advantage. Still give passive their advantage. Still give Kag's advantage.
    Big'Tone-V16 DC Sorc AR31
    Sneaky'Tone-V16 DC NB AR22
    Holy'Tone-V12 DC Temp
    Chunky'Tone-33 DC DK (BWB beast)

    Worst NB NA
    Roll dodging magicka sorc


    "Do you know why they call him Big'Tone?"
  • Leandor
    Leandor
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    BigTone wrote: »
    k2blader wrote: »
    Some, I would even say most, people aren't using Kagrenac's 5-piece............

    That would be a big mistake.

    What is my solution to this issue? Leave the set alone. 8 trait set should be powerful. However increase standard rez times by 300%. You want to rez your buddy? You have to earn it. Still give templars their advantage. Still give passive their advantage. Still give Kag's advantage.
    Yes to this proposal. Well, yes if you really have to do something.
  • Yonkit
    Yonkit
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    Rylana wrote: »
    Id rather not play even more horse simulator Zheg. I am all about the Kag's, especially when it causes a come from behind win when the stack moves off.

    And its not like everyone in Cyro is a templar or anything.

    I am still on the fence about this whole issue, but here's the issue I have with this "come from behind win," it favors numbers. The incidence that Zheg is writing about comes from last night a large skirmish at the Ales farm on the TF server where 15 of us DC were fighting, according to my head count which is inaccurate to some degree, 40 EP. In the four minute encounter I gathered over 50 kills and 28kb and was still heartily crushed in this engagement. I popped barriers practically on cooldown, and killed several people three times in that single sub 5-minute period. We literally couldn't kill people faster than they could rez one another, but by all metrics of this fight, it seemed like we were thrashing folks, but because we could kill 10 people a push while another 10 were rezzing the last 10 that died, there was no real traction being made towards an overall victory.

    It's not that GoS, who was there for that battle, "came from behind" as if a sort of "Rudy" underdog analogy works in this situation. It was that with sheer numbers and fast rezzes the group with a large numerical advantage continued to beat down upon a smaller group in a more efficient manner, even as the smaller group was outperforming them in battle metrics significantly (metrics being things like KDR etc.)

    The Kag set is not being used by players in the fashion of Senelar, who would do these daring deep behind lines rezzes while invisibatting to snag outnumbered teammates fighting for their lives. Those were amazing days btw. Now it might seem to be another tool for promoting the numbers game, which we all claim to hate but love to do.

    So do we change the kag set? Meh. I'm not sure. It's not the biggest deal in the world. At the end of the day you fight much larger numbers, do what you can, then go down to the sewers and take all their stones where they only have 15 people in one spot instead of 50.



    Edited by Yonkit on September 30, 2015 10:34PM
    Has an Alter Ego in the form of a very large quadrupedal black & white Bear.
  • Zheg
    Zheg
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    To clarify yonk's post, my concern comes from not just one night, but a few weeks. It's starting to seem like a trend, which indicates it's becoming the meta. Perhaps the thread title is misleading, but I feel like the OP frames the problem as rezzing in general inside cyrodiil. I'd prefer for kags to remain unnerfed (and other sets buffed so we have more build variety), and for other solutions to be implemented. A few have already been tossed out as ideas.

    The problem with kags is that it seems to strongly favor higher numbers when paired with everything else I keep repeating myself on, so I fail to see how it in any way correlates to a 'come from behind'. Given the lag among the general pvp population to pick up on the current meta, if rezzing is already starting to seem like a problem, I'd be worried that it will only get worse as more people migrate towards it. So, no, I'm not asking for nerfs to anything, just asking that ZOS monitors now rather than 3 months from now should the time come when action does need to be taken.

    TF is kind of dumb at the moment because of the population imbalance in regular cyrodiil, and heavily outnumbered fights are what I've based my feedback on. Fights with less overwhelming numbers aren't as ridiculous, so maybe the solution lies in addressing the incentive to stack 2-3+ raid groups in one spot (of which every alliance is guilty of). Either way, ZOS should be paying attention to it. For those of you who fail at reading comprehension, that does not mean ZOS must nerf kags.

    #nerfsorcsinstead
    Edited by Zheg on September 30, 2015 11:55PM
    ==Vehemence raid lead== and a surviving member of ==Mostly Harmless==

    V16 Breton Temp - Zig Zheg
    V16 Khajiit Sorc - Zheg
    V16 Dark Elf DK - Zhegg
    V16 Imperial NB - Zegai
    V12 High Elf NB - Zhig
  • Yonkit
    Yonkit
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    Zheg wrote: »
    To clarify yonk's post, my concern comes from not just one night, but a few weeks. It's starting to seem like a trend, which indicates it's becoming the meta. Perhaps the thread title is misleading, but I feel like the OP frames the problem as rezzing in general inside cyrodiil. I'd prefer for kags to remain unnerfed (and other sets buffed so we have more build variety), and for other solutions to be implemented. A few have already been tossed out as ideas.

    The problem with kags is that it seems to strongly favor higher numbers when paired with everything else I keep repeating myself on, so I fail to see how it in any way correlates to a 'come from behind'. Given the lag among the general pvp population to pick up on the current meta, if rezzing is already starting to seem like a problem, I'd be worried that it will only get worse as more people migrate towards it. So, no, I'm not asking for nerfs to anything, just asking that ZOS monitors now rather than 3 months from now should the time come when action does need to be taken.

    TF is kind of dumb at the moment because of the population imbalance in regular cyrodiil, and heavily outnumbered fights are what I've based my feedback on. Fights with less overwhelming numbers aren't as ridiculous, so maybe the solution lies in addressing the incentive to stack 2-3+ raid groups in one spot (of which every alliance is guilty of). Either way, ZOS should be paying attention to it. For those of you who fail at reading comprehension, that does not mean ZOS must nerf kags.

    #nerfsorcsinstead

    MY POST WAS PERFECTLY CLEAR YOU JERK
    Has an Alter Ego in the form of a very large quadrupedal black & white Bear.
  • Domander
    Domander
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    I've always felt that this set was BS, for Templars especially.

    I'm not a fan of battle ressing in general. It removes the penalty for dying and in group PvP having a templar running this set can get ressess off 100% of the time unless someone is just bashing them nonstop and then all they need to do is immovable/unstoppable and you can't even do that.

    To be honest I think there should be a ress timer when you are PVP flagged of at *least* 30 seconds before you're able to be ressed. It is one of those things like ground oil, that while very effective and fun doesn't make any sense and is easy to exploit.

    As an example, Cinn and I were fighting Ebonheart templar and 2 others he was grouped with in IC Sewers the other night in a close fight for a few minutes. In comes Mojican and his group of 2. Chaos ensues and I decided to switch targets to the two players Mojican was grouped with while Cinn kited Ebon's group around. I killed both players and turn back to help Cinn and Moj of course just starts ressing them. Before I can even get to him he has the first guy ressed and then even though I'm spamming bash on him he resses the second player through repeated bashes because he's either running an unstoppable pot or immovable pot. Cinn dies and I die shortly after. In this case, the players who had the performed the best were not rewarded at all for killing other players and the guys who died ended up being rewarded.

    "Battle ressing" in general is just a stupid mechanic that needs something to balance it further so that making mistakes is actually penalized and so that death has meaning.




    I disagree with some of what you say, but a rez timer might be a good idea.
  • Zheg
    Zheg
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    Yonkit wrote: »
    Zheg wrote: »
    To clarify yonk's post, my concern comes from not just one night, but a few weeks. It's starting to seem like a trend, which indicates it's becoming the meta. Perhaps the thread title is misleading, but I feel like the OP frames the problem as rezzing in general inside cyrodiil. I'd prefer for kags to remain unnerfed (and other sets buffed so we have more build variety), and for other solutions to be implemented. A few have already been tossed out as ideas.

    The problem with kags is that it seems to strongly favor higher numbers when paired with everything else I keep repeating myself on, so I fail to see how it in any way correlates to a 'come from behind'. Given the lag among the general pvp population to pick up on the current meta, if rezzing is already starting to seem like a problem, I'd be worried that it will only get worse as more people migrate towards it. So, no, I'm not asking for nerfs to anything, just asking that ZOS monitors now rather than 3 months from now should the time come when action does need to be taken.

    TF is kind of dumb at the moment because of the population imbalance in regular cyrodiil, and heavily outnumbered fights are what I've based my feedback on. Fights with less overwhelming numbers aren't as ridiculous, so maybe the solution lies in addressing the incentive to stack 2-3+ raid groups in one spot (of which every alliance is guilty of). Either way, ZOS should be paying attention to it. For those of you who fail at reading comprehension, that does not mean ZOS must nerf kags.

    #nerfsorcsinstead

    MY POST WAS PERFECTLY CLEAR YOU JERK

    kagits... always so moody. This is why I'm a dog person :)
    ==Vehemence raid lead== and a surviving member of ==Mostly Harmless==

    V16 Breton Temp - Zig Zheg
    V16 Khajiit Sorc - Zheg
    V16 Dark Elf DK - Zhegg
    V16 Imperial NB - Zegai
    V12 High Elf NB - Zhig
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