You guys broke tanks....

Personofsecrets

tyler_spearsb14_ESO wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

They also can't figure out how just apply these changes to Cyrodiil and not everywhere else.

Battle Spirit must have been a thing of Divine Intervention.

I have enjoyed tanking more now that I'm not sitting and mindlessly spamming taunt and skills. Focusing on doing what I need to correctly instead of sitting with block 24/7 and spamming buttons.

You've obviously never tanked any trial, the first boss in SO, the last bosses in AA and HRC all require your tanks to almost never drop your shield. Doing so will result in your death, I'm Physical and Spell resistance capped with plenty of champion points and over 30k health and will get 1 shot If I dont keep my shield up in those trials.

It is always hilarious when people bring up 'not holding block is just fine,' but use PVP or veteran dungeons as their frame of reference. 'yea, do this easy content that doesn't even require a tank, you totally don't need to hold block, see, the nerf is fine after all.'

omfgitsbatman

tyler_spearsb14_ESO wrote: »

@draeganb16_ESO : You're not understanding the impact its had.

Im NOT the only one who feels that they have burned tanks with this stamina nerf.

and I'm an EXCEPTIONAL Tank, you can ask ANYONE whos ran with me, or view the leaderboards on Xbox to see me and my guild in the top 10.

Honestly, I hate to say this is an L2P issue... but it is. I have NO PROBLEM tanking anything. I'm wearing pretty terrible gear right now (2pc hist v14, 3 pc footman, 5pc jolting, 2pc engine guardian one v12) and I feel overtanked for every single fight in the game still (including the new vet dungeons, trials and hardmodes). My tank isn't even my main character and I consider myself a mediocre tank at best. I can run in a group without shards and a group where I have healers that mainly dps and don't pay much attention to me. I am very self sufficient. Pretty much do exactly what @paulsimonps said... because he's right. He also happens to be one of the top 5 tanks in the game right now in my opinion.

aco5712

I dont tank trials or any pve for that matter but is mist a viable option for reducing your damage while regenning stam? All you would need to do is have alot of stam regen and go in mist for 2-4 secs and then come out with some new stam? I know you cant get healed but your taking 75% less damage?

Dar_Zeena

Weird... I can hold 4 axes AND some atros perfectly fine without running out and I am on 25k stam...
I still hate the no stam regen thing though.

paulsimonps

aco5712 wrote: »

I dont tank trials or any pvp for that matter but is mist a viable option for reducing your damage while regenning stam? All you would need to do is have alot of stam regen and go in mist for 2-4 secs and then come out with some new stam? I know you cant get healed but your taking 75% less damage?

It would work in normal and veteran dungeons with the exception of the IC dungeons. But to be fair you don't have to really block most of the attacks from bosses as well as mobs in the those instances. You only really need to block their heavy attacks and other special abilities, their light attacks are fine if you don't block. For example the last boss in veteran spindle I don't block him at all, not even his teleport strike attack, and I only have 20k in both resistances, far from hardcape'd. A tank blocking with somewhat decent resistance and other mitigation abilities or set lands on roughly 78-83% mitigation, so any attack that you take large damage from while blocking in full gear is not wise to do mist form in, you need the heals there.

Joy_Division

tyler_spearsb14_ESO wrote: »

and I'm an EXCEPTIONAL Tank

Apparently not.

bigereard

Personofsecrets wrote: »

While I agree with your points, the idea that people can do what they did before is incorrect. This nerf is certainly noticeable and 'doing what was done before' should instead read 'doing what was done before after jumping through a bunch of hoops,' but that doesn't exactly place the nerf in a good light, does it?

True, that's my point actually, I apologize for my bad english.
I even stated that the nerf it's self is not good, but not because it's gives the... 'new challenge', it's because the nerf not fixes the real problem, still people's reaction to this nerf is little too exaggerated in my opinion.

Let me rephrase some of my point:
1) Some people have fun with jumping through a bunch of hoops, some people not, of course.
2) In a good team, the one who jumping through a bunch of hoops is not the tank, it's the support templar. They now must sacrifice their precious one ability slot to shard (if they not already have shard in their slot), and their precious second to shard the tank (if they not already doing it).
What we like as tank is our stamina goes up, I personally don't really care it's come from me, templar, or even my pet. So it's more like "you guys broke my perfect templar build"

But of course, it's my personal opinion, this world will be boring if everyone agree with us, isn't it?

aco5712 wrote: »

I dont tank trials or any pvp for that matter but is mist a viable option for reducing your damage while regenning stam? All you would need to do is have alot of stam regen and go in mist for 2-4 secs and then come out with some new stam? I know you cant get healed but your taking 75% less damage?

Nice, actually that's what I've been doing in one of my tank.
But mist-ing require good communication with your healer. They must have a good timing with heal and damage shield.
If a tank have a problem with the shard, this will be a bigger problem for them...

paulsimonps wrote: »

But to be fair you don't have to really block most of the attacks from bosses as well as mobs in the those instances. You only really need to block their heavy attacks and other special abilities, their light attacks are fine if you don't block.

You know, I always assume that all tank know about this, but now I think I am wrong...

Btw, your mitigation blocking test is in fearisfailure is awesome and helpful, thanks for the hard work.

Artemiisia

I first started tanking after the update, and I love it, were even able to tank vWGT after 8 days of tanking, I cant compare the two different tanking style pre and post update, but tanking works in this.

Sureshawt

What I hear from the OP is that he is good tank and has adapted to the changes successfully. However, he would prefer things were reverted back to easy mode so he can be a totally self reliant tank again by holding one button down indefinitely.

thedemiseraphb14_ESO

It's frustrating to see all the posts about "It was like this before... "... MMO's change all the time. That's the point of playing an mmo and not an offline rpg. Sometimes things change. Nerf or not, it will keep changing. You have to adjust to the changes, not just freak out and say "we never want you to update anything ever"... Especially when many people are finding a way to succeed. What if it had always been this way? *sigh*

Personofsecrets

thedemiseraphb14_ESO wrote: »

It's frustrating to see all the posts about "It was like this before... "... MMO's change all the time. That's the point of playing an mmo and not an offline rpg. Sometimes things change. Nerf or not, it will keep changing. You have to adjust to the changes, not just freak out and say "we never want you to update anything ever"... Especially when many people are finding a way to succeed. What if it had always been this way? *sigh*

It is also important though, for when there is a change, that it is done for correct reasons. ESO Live 21 was a circus in that they tried to justify the nerf, but failed horribly in the sense of describing the 'problem' of tanking, but then describing how they would implement a nerf that would change that 'problem' or any of the actual problems that do exist with the role. Their means didn't cause the ends that they wanted and was forseeably going to cause new problems.

As it is now, tanking is unrewarding in PVP, is a trivial role in most PVE content, and I know that more players than just myself are still 'just holding block.' Most tanks still are running extreme survivability builds which, not only gimp the player, but are not needed in the vast majority of content. The stamina regeneration nerf did nothing as a panacea to any tanking issue except there will be a few less QQ whines in PVP (which I also don't understand why the onus of adapting was put on the rare PVP tank rather than the spam high DPS ability into a players shield play style).

Let's say that MMOs, at their core, are about constant and needless change despite what players want. Fine, I'll grant you that. If that is the case though, then the developers should have just announced the nerf, without reason, and said tough luck. Things would have been much less of a hassle if the developers never claimed to care about feedback from their players.

That isn't what happened though and players have the right to be ticked off about it. The nerf unbalanced PVP in the sense that defense is now more costly than offense. Players claim to not be affected by the nerf in PVE, so I don't see the point of the nerf to begin with if it actually didn't change anything, but tick off those that can't adapt. All we get to show for the nerf is Deltia and Jessica Folsom saying the exact same soundbite about tanking and Richard Lambert's soul searching moment with regards to how he chooses what half of the population to favor.

aialghannam_ESO

ZOS needs to just remove the stamina penalty while blocking altogether. It's very obvious now that it was a mistake to make that change. It absolutely ruined tanking.

Vildebill

For me, tanking has never been more fun. Before the change anyone could stand next to a boss with sword and board and taunt for infinite time, now it takes a more dynamic play style. My tank is a stamina based Khajiit with like 20 attribute points in stamina and all armour glyphs in health, i don't even have a 20k stamina pool, and i'm able to tank every dungeon in the game.

With heavy attacks between animations, stamina steal enchants, potions, battle roar and earthen heart abilities (class specific though) this is totally manageable. Equip an engine guardian set and the results are even better.

In my opinion a tank rolls around, chains in some mobs, cc them so the DD's can kill them easier etc. A battlefield orchestrator, not a concrete pillar for the boss to hit at.

Brrrofski

So I've done a few andxwith some build changes (35 points into block reduction, legendary block reduction Glyphs, changing a few skills around) the stamina is pretty much no problem at all.

It's definitely not as fun though. Everything I do is to regen stamina. Not controlling the fight as much as before.

So yeh, the stam issue can be solved quote easilly. But it is pretty boring now.

Just need to farm the engine guardian helmet and it might get more fun again though.

winterbornb14_ESO

Everyone knows this Nerf was not because it was too fun or not hard enough to tank in PvE.

This was simply a lazy and incompetent way to Nerf a PvP issue and *** everyone else off at the same time.

It is very easy to fix and yet Z0$ found that instead of doing something right, they noticed people needed to grind more gear to compensate.

So they win and we loose and that is a great way to keep customers happy huh?

Personofsecrets

winterbornb14_ESO wrote: »

So they win and we loose and that is a great way to keep customers happy huh?

qft

dodgehopper_ESO

thedemiseraphb14_ESO wrote: »

It's frustrating to see all the posts about "It was like this before... "... MMO's change all the time. That's the point of playing an mmo and not an offline rpg. Sometimes things change. Nerf or not, it will keep changing. You have to adjust to the changes, not just freak out and say "we never want you to update anything ever"... Especially when many people are finding a way to succeed. What if it had always been this way? *sigh*

Why? I thought the point of an mmo is to have fun playing with other players. I dont think most of us play online to play a digital version of calvinball. I will agree balance and growth are important, but i don't think continual change is a/the reason for the lion"s share of players. When people state their displeasure at major gameplay and design issues they udually have reason, whether it is because new systems are less fun, more challenging, etc is another issue. I personally feel th as t with the changes as they stand, the devs should buff all tanking skills commensurate with the health stat in the same way magic busss spell dmg and stamina buffs weapon dmg. If they do not go this route, they should decouple mag/stam from resulting dmg values. Otherwise, i see no good reason to be a true tank in pvp anymore.

i3ig_Gun

pfftt...

Forestd16b14_ESO

If you need to perma-block to tank you are doing something wrong. Yes stamina regen while blocking would greatly help tanks but perma-blocking is what got tanks nerf to begin with and if they allow tanks/HA users stamina regen while blocking DPS players will be crying for it too cause "it's only fair" which will repeat the stupid cycle all over again of crying, nerfing, buffing, repeat.

Only way I see stamina regen while blocking returning is if ZOS finally gets rid of block casting and no it isn't a another nerf to tanks cause again if you relie on perma-blocking to tank you are doing something wrong because their is more to tanking than just taunting enemies into a corner while hiding behind a shield.

AfkNinja

Neeeccccrrrooooooo.

Why re-open a post from October? lol

Dracan_Fontom

Dude, I have V6 DK tank, 29k health and 22k Stamina when scaled to v16, never ran out of stam. Even when I had to solo kill the Third Boss of CoH cause everyone else died.

kuro-dono

oh jeesh, holding block 24/7 cant be fun Heavy attacking/weapon with recoves stamina with attacks while offhand swapping to dps same time> thats fun!

LordTareq

kuro-dono wrote: »

oh jeesh, holding block 24/7 cant be fun Heavy attacking/weapon with recoves stamina with attacks while offhand swapping to dps same time> thats fun!

Unfortunately when you heavy attack, then need to block to survive a nasty boss attack, your regeneration from the heavy attack is stopped... Terrible mechanic.

strikeback1247

NECROMANCY! BURN YOU FILTHY HERETICS!

Marktoneth3

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Dude, I have V6 DK tank, 29k health and 22k Stamina when scaled to v16, never ran out of stam. Even when I had to solo kill the Third Boss of CoH cause everyone else died.

I also a DK TANK we have freaking great passive from earthen heart ability that's why we never ran out of stamina.Unlike the other tank classes they're struggle alot.

kingkhaungs

Simple solution: Add passives to S&B weapon and Heavy Armor skill lines that allow a certain percentage of stamina regeneration while blocking. For example, could get 20% regen when S&B equipped and 50% if wearing 5 or more heavy armor.

Zeg0ta

The whole no Regen while tanking is not that big of a deal really. I've found it to be more engaging instead of just holding block snooze fest. It's really easy to tank three axes in AA and have plenty stamina. Maybe look at your gear and champ points. I could help you if you want it. Just hit me up in game @Zeg0ta

imapogostick

I would agree I don't like the no stamina regen I'd prefer it to be about 25 to 50 percent of your actual regen. So it's not full but not nothing also make no skills cast when holding shield unless it's a skill in the snb skill line.
For me it's most noticeable in pvp when I get 1v3 and get hit while blocking 3 times and have no stamina left. Or no way to regen without dropping shield therefore might as well not even tank. Xspecially If I can't hold off 2ppl for 30 seconds I think we need a new term for this tank... no more tank maybe should call it a meat shield or what it really is cannon fodder

Also it's funny how I have to give damage up to tank. Therefore everyone I fight seems like a tank yet I can't even tank as is.

Anti_Virus

ZOS just needs to make tanks not rely on blocking to tank effectively, in almost every MMO the tank is required to block to survive

When I used to play DCUO I played as a tank and to tank it was simple. Pull aggro and hold block except there was no penalty for blocking, but that got boring after awhile

I'd like to see Tanking be a more active role instead of perma blocking all day to stay alive.

Jamjamdog

Since I started playing as a tank after the no-regen while blocking, I've been used to it and I do fine, but as my tank is also my highest level (v5) I haven't done some endgame stuff yet
I don't block too often, only when I see an attack incoming. This does mean, however, that if I don't see an attack incoming, I'll get hit, but with Igneous Shield, Coagulating Blood, Resolving Vigor and a healer in the group, it doesn't matter too much.

In fact, during a run of veteran City of Ash, we'd gotten the Ash Titan down to ~13% health and then the 2 DD's and Healer died, leaving me as the last man standing. I did try and resurrect them, but it's really awkward to with all the AoE's and DoT's.
But with my survivability, I managed to solo the remaining 13% of the Ash Titan and kill it! I was very proud of myself that day

I do understand the displeasure that people have, though, with the whole 'no-regen while blocking', but as I'd never experienced it, I was used to having no stamina regeneration while blocking; unfortunately, you'll have to adapt to it and adjust (which you may have already )