Dear cloak nerf crew,

Volrion

I won't go into detail about the various counters for cloak. Or the fact that often it doesn't even work to begin with, but still charges you for the magicka to cast it.

But let's talk about the argument many have mentioned about diminishing returns on this ability.

For one! To efficiently escape, many nightblades have an entire back bar dedicated to running away.

Cloak to stealth
Purge to wipe marks
Double take to get away quickly
Shuffle to remove snares
Some even run vield strike just for the movement speed.

Then you maybe have one or two slots left for a heal/buff. But then you lose other benefits of escape.

A whole bar to running away. Not killing. Not buffing shields. Not healing.

And do you know how expensive it is to drop all of these skills after coming out of a fight?

As a battle levelled Stam build you maybe get 5 casts from a full magicka bar.

With standard sneak speed, that's enough to maybe get 10 meters away LOL

As a magicka build who's been casting attacks, you often need to same a regen pot just for when it's time to leave a fight.


Let's not forget that traditionally, the whole point of the class is to get in an out with a quick dps burst then go back to the shadows for the next target.

They're not designed to survive like our beast DKs or Templars, so I think the way they exist currently is fine.

If anything, the problem is the NPCs in IC. Nobody gave a damn about cloak before it became a way to pull mobs and one hit bosses!

I understand the frustration there, but you're targeting the wrong problem.



For example; If nightblades get "the same treatment" as sorcs with diminishing cast value, then shouldn't they receive an OP damage shield as we'll?

So we nerf cloak, but give NBs a shield so they can roll on 10 people with an I win button instead?

I dunno if that's a great solution... Haha

Btw, everyone has access to mist form and invis pots? Even battle leveled without jewelry you can make an invisible/snare resist and movement speed tri pot which gives you about 12 seconds of cloak. Why don't you use them? Because you say you don't have room on your bar or inventory for a skill which has no offensive power? Hmmmm.......

Nightblades are squishy. We all know that everyone would choose to 1v1 a NB over any other class.

I know when I see a NB when I'm running my Stamplar I head straight for them!

No heals. No damage shields. No other escape mechanism.

Your thread is invalid.

Volrion

*Can't edit but I wanted to add this in.

When a NB cloaks in Cyrodiil, the response is generally; 'Ok, go run like a b**, we'll just go and take your keep.'

In IC, people are either frustrated for the missed kill, or worse when that pesky NB pulls ads.

Since the only objective is to kill each other, it means more and pisses people off more.


Make an IC instance where there is a PVP OBJECTIVE and less (none would be better IMO) NPC trash, and it would solve this problem.

In Cyrodiil, if you cloak and run, you're hurting your alliance by not fighting/defending. In IC, not only is there no real objective, so there is no consequence to not fight, it's also a solid tactic with the amount of NPCs around.

Look at the big picture guys.

Poxheart

There are so many misconceptions in your two posts that it's not even worth going into detail other than to say:

Any Nightblade that dedicates an entire bar to running away (as suggested in the OP) is a bad Nightblade.

Forestd16b14_ESO

31st thread that a NB posted saying cloak isn't OP.

Lutallo

No magicka regen during cloak OR increased cost per cloak.

Problem solved. NB's can't hit their "I Win" button and run away or repeatedly stealth for a 10k critical.

Reeko

Lutallo wrote: »

No magicka regen during cloak OR increased cost per cloak.

Problem solved. NB's can't hit their "I Win" button and run away or repeatedly stealth for a 10k critical.

How does running away make me win? If anything i lost a fight i have to run away from lol

Volrion

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

31st thread that a NB posted saying cloak isn't OP.

I run all 4 actually. My main is a Redguard Templar. (If you read the post you'd have seen that.)

Like what @Reeko said. How do you win from hiding?

Volrion

@Lutallo @Forestd16b14_ESO

Can either of you give me a reason as to why cloak is OP? As you seem to be suggesting with your posts?

I am genuinely curious how you think cloak is unfair.

Alucardo

SourishWhale wrote: »

I am genuinely curious how you think cloak is unfair.

I'm not one of the nerf cloak crew, but I'll give you an experience I had where it can be unfair/annoying.

On my DK I don't have a lot of AoEs.. firey breath is probably the closest I have. Dismounted by a Nightblade - we began fighting and I was winning, her tactics completely changed: she would cloak, charge a heavy fire attack, cloak then move to a different position and repeat. There was literally nothing I could do. She would stay at range cloaking and charging heavy fire attacks. It was the slowest and most frustrating death I've ever encountered. I didn't come on the forums and write a post about nerfing cloak or anything because it's a legit tactic they were given by ZOS, but it was pretty lame to say the least and I didn't respect her for beating me that way.
Other than that I don't care how often they use cloak or what they do with it, as long as it's not abused that way in 1v1 scenarios.

Turelus

My biggest issue with this whole debate is that it's rarely anything to do with a Nightblade being able to kill people because of the cloak but peoples rage that their kill got away.

[snip]

I know the skill will eventually be nerfed because of all the complaints about it, then in true ZOS style it will be so worthless I will remove it from my bar. After that the only defence I'm going to have as a magicka build is Healing Ward and considering that hardly works as a heal any more and we have a set which negates shields I'll probably just enjoy the days of the old magicka nightblades where we die if we dare enter close range.

I guess I can just switch to a 5k sniper build, no one has issues with being two shot after all.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Volrion

Poxheart wrote: »

There are so many misconceptions in your two posts that it's not even worth going into detail other than to say:

Any Nightblade that dedicates an entire bar to running away (as suggested in the OP) is a bad Nightblade.

You missed the point.

Only with a full bar as suggested would you be able to wipe all the cloak counters which currently exist.

What's the counter for caltrops? cloak and anti-snare right? So there's two slots straight off the jump.

What about a mark? Well you need to wipe that. There's purge for that. Three slots.

Whats the counter for AOEs? Well you need to get out of the proximity as quickly as possible right? In comes double take. That's four slots.

Then theres flare, pots, radiant light, and the fact that cloak doesn't always work to begin with.

If you truly want to become as illusive as many are suggesting, you need to dedicate a lot to do so. And then, you lose a lot of real sustainability or attack damage in the process.

If they don't run all these counters, and you can't still catch them (which most NBs won't), then it's quite clearly a build issue on your part, or a L2P issue.

And if they do run all these counters, then you probably won't have to worry much about them when they do try to attack you because they will be weak.


As is the beauty of the game, every build will have it's counters, and every build will have it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

If I want to make a bar completely dedicated to running from any situation that is presented to me, I can. But it will greatly effect various other facets of my gameplay.

Why not dedicate one of the many counters to a slot on your bar? You'll be catching NBs in no time... But again, if you do that, what are you sacrificing in all of your other fights? That's the choice we all have to make with our builds.

The reason I'm arguing this point, is that people need to educate themselves on counters rather than jumping on the forums and bitching for nerfs. Gameplay is slowing down and requiring less skill with each of these 'updates'. Pretty soon we'll just be standing there bombing each other with light and heavy attacks... Last man standing wins lol

If you hate cloaking NBs so much, why don't you just dedicate a slot on your bar to catching them?

Volrion

@Alucardo It's absolutely annoying. But what do you expect? How do you think that fight would go if this little NB went toe to toe with your mighty DK? NBs have to be cunning or we wipe the floor with them.

Why not drop caltrops and wait for him to come in? If he doesn't come in, as soon as he attacks, why not charge/chain him in and CC the *** out of him till he's done.

As DK there are plenty of ways to CC a NB.

When I'm fighting NBs with my Stamplar for example, as soon as they are visible I'm rushing with stampede for a snare, and then jabs/executioner to death.

If they cloak again, I spam jabs in the area or predicted area I assume they ran to and bring em out of cloak.

If I miss them with the AOE to reveal them, I repeat. By the time they're in cloak wasting magicka, I'm just sitting there with my regens ticking up for round two...

Besides, if all he was doing was bombing heavy attacks, surely that's not enough to drop a DK.

If you really want to kill NBs, you can do it. But it may make you less effective against say fellow DKs... We can't have it all.

Check this out. Dude ran a NB Hunter build and it was effective. Looking at the build you can see it may not be as effective against other builds, but that's the way it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm9adKVYCU8

Additionally, have you read the tooltip for Radiant Magelight?

If you'd had it equipped in that 1v1 I bet it would have helped.

Aside from +20% spell crit and 5% magicka reduction... "The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents from being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies."

Have that on your bar and you basically never have to worry about a cloaked NB ever again.

@Turelus That comic is bang on. lol This is the entire problem I have with the Cloak nerf movement.

Alucardo

SourishWhale wrote: »

Why not drop caltrops and wait for him to come in? If he doesn't come in, as soon as he attacks, why not charge/chain him in and CC the *** out of him till he's done.

I'm level 20 and haven't been in Cyrodiil that long - just rank 3 at the moment, so unfortunately Caltrops won't be an option for some time.

SourishWhale wrote: »

As DK there are plenty of ways to CC a NB.

I'm all for learning. What are the plenty of ways I can CC a Nightblade that stays at 25 meter range while cloaking and running to different positions as a DK?

SourishWhale wrote: »

Additionally, have you read the tooltip for Radiant Magelight?

I need to use a skill on each bar to raise my spell critical rating when I'm a stamina build just to reveal hidden enemies? Personally that seems kind of daft.

SourishWhale wrote: »

Check this out. Dude ran a NB Hunter build and it was effective. Looking at the build you can see it may not be as effective against other builds, but that's the way it works.

That's cool and all, but I fight more than Nightblades and want to be effective against as many classes as possible. I don't want to dedicate my time and resources into eradicating just blade-wielding houdinis.

There's no denying there isn't a few counters towards stealth. The problem I do have with it, which the video you linked shows, is you need to build for it. There is no other class in the game where I have to skill X or use a potion just to counter one of their abilities. IMHO, this is a flaw. A big one. I have 2 Nightblades myself, and even I think it's stupid.

Wollust

Accept the fact that there is gonna be a nerf and stop whining. I'm not happy about any nerfs either but whatever. This is how the game seems to work.

Volrion

Why not drop caltrops and wait for him to come in? If he doesn't come in, as soon as he attacks, why not charge/chain him in and CC the *** out of him till he's done.


I'm level 20 and haven't been in Cyrodiil that long - just rank 3 at the moment, so unfortunately Caltrops won't be an option for some time.

You're gonna have to pay your dues, just like everyone else did. At level 20 you don't have access to much. So you've just got to unlock some things... Whether its a NB or any other class, at level 20, as an inexperienced player, you're gonna get wrecked regardless until you earn some stripes.


As DK there are plenty of ways to CC a NB.

I'm all for learning. What are the plenty of ways I can CC a Nightblade that stays at 25 meter range while cloaking and running to different positions as a DK?

Extended chains has 22m range. If you can pull them close enough, talons can lock them in for a bit. Reflective scales will return anything they fire ate you back at them. Stone fist is a 20m knock down. Petrify is a 20m stun.

Plus your weapon attacks.

Check this link. I don't play as DK often, but you can learn everything you need to know from this;

http://eso-skills.com/skill/


Additionally, have you read the tooltip for Radiant Magelight?

I need to use a skill on each bar to raise my spell critical rating when I'm a stamina build just to reveal hidden enemies? Personally that seems kind of daft.

Why is that daft? So you want immunity to every build just as a default? You willingness to adapt, or lack thereof is the problem.


Check this out. Dude ran a NB Hunter build and it was effective. Looking at the build you can see it may not be as effective against other builds, but that's the way it works.

That's cool and all, but I fight more than Nightblades and want to be effective against as many classes as possible. I don't want to dedicate my time and resources into eradicating just blade-wielding houdinis.

There's no denying there isn't a few counters towards stealth. The problem I do have with it, which the video you linked shows, is you need to build for it. There is no other class in the game where I have to skill X or use a potion just to counter one of their abilities. IMHO, this is a flaw. A big one. I have 2 Nightblades myself, and even I think it's stupid.

You don't need a build for it.

Additionally, There are plenty of classes you need to have specific counters for.

Annulment absorbs magic, making magicka builds extremely weak. Templars have an ability that reflects any spell back at the caster, which also dominates magicka builds. Neither of these work against stam builds.

Reflective scales on DK dominates against ranged opponents. Is useless against melee.

The list goes on, you're new to the game, but you'll discover them all eventually, and then it will be your choice whether to use them or not. And whether a situational benefit, trumps a well rounded approach.

I've made builds where I love the sight of a magicka player. But then I suck against stam builds with that build. Same can be said the other way around...

There is nothing wrong with cloak, only the people who refuse to adapt their play style to counter it.

Kas

i took my unplayed NB and made it my pve tank for farming dungeons. i need a few ap for horn and also i think i'll want to mix in prox det for trash. have no f*ing clue what i'm doing, yet i can kill perfectly fine in ic.

my playstyle: spamm cloak with reg food and observe. jump peopel by rolling my face over 1-4, only concentrate on proper timings for fear, sould harvest and when to cloak again. if it looks like i'm losing, role, kite and use cloak to recover. rinse and repeat until rolling my face on my buttons works out well by chance.

i can't kill good players or groups but then in just pull a sweeper boss, walk into the enemy and hit him once and proceed to cloak and hope that the boss does the work. maybe i try to execute for TVS don't I don't really mind them, I can get them with my main. just want that prox det quickly.

it's kinda shameful how much i get down with a usage of offensive skilsl that is essentially random and accomüanied by messed up light attack weaving...

Alucardo

SourishWhale wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with cloak, only the people who refuse to adapt their play style to counter it.

I think this is the main issue actually. There is no other ability in any other class that requires you to adapt your actual play style to counter it - just cloaking. It's such a controversial skill it didn't surprise me there'd be complaints about it when I first started playing this game. There has only been one other MMO I've played that allowed you to turn invisible, but it came with drawbacks:

- 5 second cast time
- 2 minute cool down
- You could not even charge an attack while invisible

However it did have a 60 second duration, and you received a huge damage bonus on your first attack coming out of it. Hunters could use a surveillance skill to detect approaching enemies while stealthed (at level 5 it had a huge radius and allowed you to detect their estimated level, class, how many there are, what direction and how far away they were). This forced them to use it more of a utility spell than abuse it. Guess what? We had no complaints from either the Hunters or other classes about this spell because it wasn't spammable, it wasn't over powered, it couldn't be countered, and it was actually useful in its own way.
Actually, there was one counter. Other Hunters could use a reveal spell which shoots a flare in the direction they were facing. If it went over the hidden Hunter, they would be revealed for 15 seconds, and if attacked, the invisibility would cancel, otherwise they'd go back into stealth after the 15 seconds. They'd have to use the surveillance skill to try and determine where the Hunter was hiding. Sure, this game had its own set of problems, but stealth wasn't one of them.
You're probably wondering at this point what relevance this has. The reveal skill was purely optional. There was no point carrying it because cloaking could not be spammed at will. If you wanted to play as a glorified scout, then it was a pretty helpful spell. You did not have to alter your play style just because a cloaking mechanism existed

leepalmer95

At least nb's have the option to run away.

I hardly play my nb and an entire bar to run away, such a bad nb.

Tomato

They should make Green Dragons blood a cloak for DK's since it's useless now but has a cool animation. Just saying.......

leepalmer95

Swiift wrote: »

They should make Green Dragons blood a cloak for DK's since it's useless now but has a cool animation. Just saying.......

They should re do 80% of a dk's skill, most are useless now ^^

Would be nice if dk's had

Class gap closer
Class execute
Class heal
Class shield ^^

Every other class has a few of those, dk's have none.

Volrion

"Alucardo wrote:

I think this is the main issue actually. There is no other ability in any other class that requires you to adapt your actual play style to counter it - just cloaking.

You're obviously new to this game, mate. But that's how the combat works. Every skill has a counter. Most counters have a counter of their own.

Want to prevent ranged attacks hitting you? Run reflective scales or defensive posture.

Fighting a magicka user? Annulment and it's morphs. Or Eclipse and it's morphs.

Fighting a tanky player? Well you're gonna wanna drop their armour... Anything with major breach/fracture works well for them.

Don't like being CC'd? Run Immovable. Or make yourself some potions.

Don't like being snared? Forward momentum, Shuffle, Retreating Maneuver etc.

Want to wreck shield stackers? Run (the infamous) shield breaker set

Struggling to hit your enemy? Need to slow them down? Try a snare morph of Crit charge, or talons, or caltrops, or an ice staff etc.

Want to stop vamps in their tracks? Evil or Camo hunter.

AND FINALLY! Do you want to finish off that night blade or vamp that disappears right before you kill him???

Well, you can: Radiant Magelight, Caltrops and it's morphs, Flare and it's morphs, Prox Det and the zillion other AOEs available to every class, You can run potions, mark target (NB skill), or if your attack hits before or as the user is cloaking it will take them out of cloak the moment they cast it.

OR! You can just be vanilla and focus on being average at everything... But you'll probably struggle with this.


My advice, look around you. See what most people you are dying to or struggling to kill are doing, and then think up ways to counter them.

I was struggling against sorcs for a while... So what did I do? Dark Light and Harness Magicka. Problem solved.


I don't mean to be rude, but as I mentioned earlier, I think you need to think laterally about the many, many skills that are available to you and come up with a nice build that satisfies your most important needs.

Tomato

On a side note I need to buy some more detect pots today. Thanks for the reminder!

Jitterbug

Not a bad band name

The Cloak Nerf Crew

Volrion

Swiift wrote: »

On a side note I need to buy some more detect pots today. Thanks for the reminder!

Thinking laterally! I like it.

Tavore1138

leepalmer95 wrote: »

At least nb's have the option to run away.

I hardly play my nb and an entire bar to run away, such a bad nb.

NBs are supposed to be able to run away, it makes up for being squishy - the question you should ask yourself is why it makes you so angry? Do you feel you have some right to be able to kill everyone you meet? Are you asking for changes simply because you want to be OP yourself or because you honestly feel that someone being able to run away and hide makes them too powerful? In what way is hiding OP, surely if they were OP they would not need to hide?

Poxheart

SourishWhale wrote: »

Poxheart wrote: »

There are so many misconceptions in your two posts that it's not even worth going into detail other than to say:

Any Nightblade that dedicates an entire bar to running away (as suggested in the OP) is a bad Nightblade.

You missed the point.

If you hate cloaking NBs so much, why don't you just dedicate a slot on your bar to catching them?

No, you missed the point. I play a nightblade and don't need all those skills to escape.

Nijjion

DK had their reflect nerfed because people couldn't switch to other forms of attacks... same will be done with other OP skills.

Just deal with it and lets hope everything gets balanced soon.

If other classes didn't get nerfed then there would be no demand of changing stealth... but as other classes have been changed/nerfed and lost their desired mechanic you shouldn't be surprised with this. (This is why most/all of your defence arguments can't hold).

Also why and how is it balanced that all other 3 classes have to buy specific pots to counter another classes skill? That is just stupid... if everyone had something to counter by potions then you have an argument but you don't for this reason.

#equality of the classes as we are all supposed to be able to do everything as Zenimax advertised.

Alucardo

SourishWhale wrote: »

...

Most of the skills you used in your examples are generic ones that can be applied to any class, not just one like cloak is to Nightblades. Because they are generic of course I run defensive stance to stop projectiles, Immovable for CCs, etc. I'm not building around ONE class, I'm building around all them, and that's fine. Having to create your build around one particular class is ridiculous. Still, I'm not calling out for its nerf - just defending those who don't like cloak, because they have a good reason not to.

SourishWhale wrote: »

I don't mean to be rude, but as I mentioned earlier, I think you need to think laterally about the many, many skills that are available to you and come up with a nice build that satisfies your most important needs.

No problem - sometimes it's hard to make a point without coming across rude, but you're doing fine.
All-in-all I'm really happy with my build. It has counters for every class, except cloak for reasons I explained above, which I'll go over again briefly. To counter it, you really have to find a way to work that into your setup because it's such a unique ability. Sometimes that means losing something that's useful against multiple classes just to place something on your bar to counter a single Nightblade. This is my problem with cloak. If it wasn't so spammy and abused, I'd have zero problem.

Tavore1138

@Alucardo - I am a NB (stamina) so can't 'spam' cloak but now it finally works I do use it. I am not getting the point about countering it needing a specific skill - it seems to be that when I encounter players they use any of a number of skills to counter it and that these skills have plenty of other purposes too, which is probably why they slot them.

Personally when I am fighting another NB if they cloak I through caltrops and block - if they are using cloak to reposition for an attack then block will stop that and if they are moving to escape then caltrops shows me which direction they are going... it is then up to me if I chase or simply move on - I also have 30 seconds before they can sneak up on me again without using a skill to counter my caltrops. Caltops is useful in many situations as well, not just for stealthed or cloaked players.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying everyone should use Caltrops as they one true way of countering a cloaked NB - just saying that it is one of many solutions all of which have other uses so that you are not wasting a slot to counter one specifics skill/class.

Xeven

Alucardo wrote: »

All-in-all I'm really happy with my build. It has counters for every class, except cloak for reasons I explained above, which I'll go over again briefly. To counter it, you really have to find a way to work that into your setup because it's such a unique ability. Sometimes that means losing something that's useful against multiple classes just to place something on your bar to counter a single Nightblade. This is my problem with cloak. If it wasn't so spammy and abused, I'd have zero problem.

Pretty much this except the options available for your skill bar aren't really options at all. Flare is a joke, and the radius on Mage Light is way too small to be effective.

I'll give you an example. Last night I was having a blast deathmatching DC in the Arboretum. There was this one NB that would never actually fight. For hours he would gap close from stealth, wrecking blow, then vanish, only to do it again a few seconds later. I'm busy with other people beating on me, so the few times I tried to kill him, 15 seconds on my detect pot was simply not enough time.

This is not sportsman like. This is not skill. This is just straight up griefing.

I don't want a cloak "nerf". I wan't a nerf to this kind of gameplay.

Beedles

cloak IS TO op only fight that I loose now are to wb macorers and stealthers who caltrop/cam and 2 hits stealth repeat till your dead you have no way to target them they move to fast its just a joke that this has been in game like this. ALL the counters are useless against this with the speed they can achieve. Cut stealth movement by 100% and it might make some of the counters work.