Biggest let down ever... Dyed Glass Armor.

Morimizo

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I see a lot of people in this thread trying to rationalize their $50 purchase by claiming that pink is as good as red, when you really wanted RED.

OP is right. It doesn't matter how "good" it looks if the color of the armor has no relationship to the color of the dye. People work hard to get the achievements those dyes represent, so the colors should be reproduced as faithfully as possible.

Indeed, there are many armors that don't match dye colors to the end result, and I always end up settling on the lesser of two awfuls (well, more than that, but that would ruin my metaphor ).

Personally would prefer the dyes work like paint on the heavy armors, that light armors would take the dye like T-shirts, and medium armor perhaps a little more worn looking, like staining.

Woolenthreads

Djeriko wrote: »

Once again both armor sets are the same level and material. Voidsteel a ghastly dark blue and Glass the typical light green base no matter what the level is by the way. Shouldn't the darker color (voidsteel) be the more resistant to changing it's base color? Wouldn't the lighter colored armor (Glass) be willing to change its color more easily? Spill red dye on a white table cloth and it turns red, spill it on dark blue and you get...slightly darker blue?

And there you have it, dye works better on lighter colors. You shouldn't add red and get pink then add darker red and get a lighter color pink. It just doesn't make sense.

Oh and don't forget that black dye! If I wanted grey I would have selected grey. Best way to tell the dye system is off. Most popular color in all the dye system is Coldharbor Ash Black. Mainly because not everyone has the PVP darker version and black is always in style when you are killing bandits and evil Daedric Lords! And guess what? Dye system says you want black? Too freaking bad! Here's your grey dye!

All I'm saying is if this system worked correctly, all dyes would be exact and there would be no room for argument. How hard is it for anyone to understand that if the system says apply red, black, blue, FREAKING PURPLE then maybe you should get red, black, blue and your freaking purple exactly how it advertises! We finally get shield dyes after a year of me telling them this and I'm still intending to voice the fixes needed to the dye system because the job was done incorrectly.

In truth. it depends on which method you are using for colour. For the purpose of "science" White is the balanced mixture of Red/Blue/Green reflection and Black is the absence of colour. For the purpose of "Art" white is the absence of colour and black is the balanced mixture of Red/Blue/Green paint. So it seems to me that Zos went with the "Black is the absence of colour" option meaning it will adopt colours more readily.

As a modeller and Draftsman I can only reiterate that there are many levels of hue to every colour and not everyone perceives them the same way, ask any colourblind person or person with four hue perception (I forget what it's called but they perceive more data with their eyes, some into the ultraviolet). That was originally one of the points I was making; that I see that red as red, not pink, it's just not the bright "fire engine red" you wanted.

#Edit:
1. I'm not arguing for or against I have merely pointed out an alternative opinion, partly as Devils Advocate (which every argument should have). Please don't re-post material that I have already read, As I read this post in it's entirety - otherwise I would not have deleted the url's to the pictures that take up so much space in the comments
2. If we are going to complain about Armour and Colour then I throw in something I find far more irritating; Uncolourable Sections. Argonian Heavy Armour Cuirass sports square gold panels which can't be altered; Dunmer Leather Armour Greaves sports pink strips which can't be altered. Most of the armour of those two races do that, it's quite annoying.
3. As a huge fan of the Elder Scrolls I find it neccesary to remind the OP that the SP games don't have dye tables. *drily* Apparently the technology was lost over the centuries.

Iluvrien

Doesn't the nature of the technology used in dyeing each type of armour have an impact?

For example with heavy armour, if you are painting the colour onto the surface of the metal (possibly with undercoats) then you would expect a fairly solid and representative shade. If you were imbuing the molten metal mixture with a colourant then you would expect a different shade to occur as it would be a mixture of the original colour of the metal and the colourant you added.

Might what we are seeing be down to that? Instead of incompetence?

Altaire

Further fashion show fiascoes forcasted, Fine findings to fulfill your finery. Fancy but not too frivolous.

Djeriko

Woolenthreads wrote: »

Djeriko wrote: »

Once again both armor sets are the same level and material. Voidsteel a ghastly dark blue and Glass the typical light green base no matter what the level is by the way. Shouldn't the darker color (voidsteel) be the more resistant to changing it's base color? Wouldn't the lighter colored armor (Glass) be willing to change its color more easily? Spill red dye on a white table cloth and it turns red, spill it on dark blue and you get...slightly darker blue?

And there you have it, dye works better on lighter colors. You shouldn't add red and get pink then add darker red and get a lighter color pink. It just doesn't make sense.

Oh and don't forget that black dye! If I wanted grey I would have selected grey. Best way to tell the dye system is off. Most popular color in all the dye system is Coldharbor Ash Black. Mainly because not everyone has the PVP darker version and black is always in style when you are killing bandits and evil Daedric Lords! And guess what? Dye system says you want black? Too freaking bad! Here's your grey dye!

All I'm saying is if this system worked correctly, all dyes would be exact and there would be no room for argument. How hard is it for anyone to understand that if the system says apply red, black, blue, FREAKING PURPLE then maybe you should get red, black, blue and your freaking purple exactly how it advertises! We finally get shield dyes after a year of me telling them this and I'm still intending to voice the fixes needed to the dye system because the job was done incorrectly.

In truth. it depends on which method you are using for colour. For the purpose of "science" White is the balanced mixture of Red/Blue/Green reflection and Black is the absence of colour. For the purpose of "Art" white is the absence of colour and black is the balanced mixture of Red/Blue/Green paint. So it seems to me that Zos went with the "Black is the absence of colour" option meaning it will adopt colours more readily.

As a modeller and Draftsman I can only reiterate that there are many levels of hue to every colour and not everyone perceives them the same way, ask any colourblind person or person with four hue perception (I forget what it's called but they perceive more data with their eyes, some into the ultraviolet). That was originally one of the points I was making; that I see that red as red, not pink, it's just not the bright "fire engine red" you wanted.

#Edit:
1. I'm not arguing for or against I have merely pointed out an alternative opinion, partly as Devils Advocate (which every argument should have). Please don't re-post material that I have already read, As I read this post in it's entirety - otherwise I would not have deleted the url's to the pictures that take up so much space in the comments
2. If we are going to complain about Armour and Colour then I throw in something I find far more irritating; Uncolourable Sections. Argonian Heavy Armour Cuirass sports square gold panels which can't be altered; Dunmer Leather Armour Greaves sports pink strips which can't be altered. Most of the armour of those two races do that, it's quite annoying.
3. As a huge fan of the Elder Scrolls I find it neccesary to remind the OP that the SP games don't have dye tables. *drily* Apparently the technology was lost over the centuries.

A colorblind person would have trouble seeing the differences I'm talking about very true where as a person able to see more colors would probably be more irritated than I am about the inconsistencies with the dye system. And yes I agree that there shouldn't be places that are not able to be dyed. This means that the person who made the dye system ran out of time our ideas all together. That and the person who looks over their work didn't do their job. The due system is not only flawed but at best just all around incomplete work.

Look at how long it took them to get shield dyes going even after I mentioned it practically after every patch. I don't ask for much, just that the job is finished. I'm talking about if you input a simple paint program that is on almost all computers and select a color red, your mouse will use the color red. But on our due system if you select Champion Red, it doesn't come out the same color on Glass as it does on other styles. Now I've already down why everyone's attempts at reasons for this is faulty from base color to reflectivity to just plain "being made out of glass" suggestions. Bare bones argument is this: I can dye a DARKER coloured armor style that it's made out of voidsteel and the colors come out perfectly but once that same voidsteel armor it's made into glass style, the colors get twisted. Colors come out different guess all together and even the supposedly darker versions end up lighter than the original. I ended up putting nirncrux red on next to champion red which everyone will agree is a darker color red and it comes out lighter than champion red.

Can someone say programmed incorrectly?

Robbmrp

Skyrim had the best looking Glass armor. They should have just copied those, it is an ES game afterall....

Iluvrien

Robbmrp wrote: »

Skyrim had the best looking Glass armor. They should have just copied those, it is an ES game afterall....

Actually I would have liked to see Glass as a material, not a motif. Then use that to look at the styles presented in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim and add each of those in as the racial motif for their respective areas.

Would have been a way to keep everyone happy... possibly.

CJohnson81

I dunno guys, you all keep saying blue and black armor, but really I'm seeing white and gold.

CJohnson81

All joking aside, I have two thoughts on this. Maybe there is a programming issue, but believe it or not, I think that would require a significant mapping mistake across the board for the armor - maybe there is something in the code that is lightening the shades of all dyes across the board. However, I actually think that''s unlikely.

I'm leaning more toward the idea that the color difference is due to the reflective quality of the glass. The color palate isn't the problem you are seeing. In the comparative images, I think it's clear to see the much larger reflective areas in the glass armor, creating lighter highlights. One that stood out was the long highlight along the character's right hip (blue version), versus the highlight in the hip on the plate armor.

Glass is just a different material than armor and it needs to be programmed to reflect light differently than plate. I would put my money on the programming that makes glass behave like real glass is also lightening the dyes in their current palate settings.

That said, I think you've made your argument, you want to see deeper dye color, despite the reflective qualities of the glass.

newtinmpls

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I see a lot of people in this thread trying to rationalize their $50 purchase by claiming that pink is as good as red, when you really wanted RED.

And speaking as a die-hard Morrowind fan, I would be totally happy for all colors of glass armor OTHER than green to be sabotaged. .... because ... it's glass and Glass armor is green, dammit.

Tectonaut

While I completely agree that hard earned dye colors should look the same when applied to armor/clothing, no matter the base material. I gotta say, the pictures used in this thread are so dark its like saying:

"I got a picture of bigfoot! But his hair was a ginger color? And in case you dont believe me, I took the picture in the dark so you can see it better."

Not sane logic my friend.

But as to whether dyes are applied on top of, or into armors, it should be an option. Many technologies exist to imbue a material with color, but for some things coloring must be applied on top of. Exchange technology for magic, and I see no conflict in having neon green steel, or Ruby red glass. MAGIC. Zoz please assign a non color blind person to overhaul the dye system PLEASE. And OP I sympathise about the colors sucking, but the posted images are so dark it does little good to convince laymen It's a problem.

Djeriko

Tectonaut wrote: »

While I completely agree that hard earned dye colors should look the same when applied to armor/clothing, no matter the base material. I gotta say, the pictures used in this thread are so dark its like saying:

"I got a picture of bigfoot! But his hair was a ginger color? And in case you dont believe me, I took the picture in the dark so you can see it better."

Not sane logic my friend.

But as to whether dyes are applied on top of, or into armors, it should be an option. Many technologies exist to imbue a material with color, but for some things coloring must be applied on top of. Exchange technology for magic, and I see no conflict in having neon green steel, or Ruby red glass. MAGIC. Zoz please assign a non color blind person to overhaul the dye system PLEASE. And OP I sympathise about the colors sucking, but the posted images are so dark it does little good to convince laymen It's a problem.

Finally someone gets it! It's a freaking game with magic. And it shouldn't be outside the realm of the games reality that glass can be another color. Ancient elf colors can change and so can glass.

Now to the reason I took the picture in the dark was because another poster said that the light sources interfered with the color such as fire sources. So I took foreign light sources out of the picture. When you press Esc key, the game turns on a default light source that is illuminating all of the pictures I posted. This way you can see differences clearly when they should all be the same under the same light source. Argument of light interference killed.

Woolenthreads

Actually, that's another thing that irritates me. I'd like to be able to take picture shots of a character in a truly neutral game location - The Character Screen.

newtinmpls

Djeriko wrote: »

[ It's a freaking game with magic. And it shouldn't be outside the realm of the games reality that glass can be another color. Ancient elf colors can change and so can glass.

A game without rules and consistency is no fun for me. I like the challenge of sorting out what brown on my characters medium boots will match what other color on my character's heavy helm.

And as for glass.... I would love if it simply could not change, except to green.

Djeriko

Woolenthreads wrote: »

Actually, that's another thing that irritates me. I'd like to be able to take picture shots of a character in a truly neutral game location - The Character Screen.

AGREED! I tried. Won't let me take screen shots of the character select so I was forced to improvise. I can take plenty of them during the dye station screen tho but then you get the light interference argument.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Djeriko wrote: »

[ It's a freaking game with magic. And it shouldn't be outside the realm of the games reality that glass can be another color. Ancient elf colors can change and so can glass.

A game without rules and consistency is no fun for me. I like the challenge of sorting out what brown on my characters medium boots will match what other color on my character's heavy helm.

And as for glass.... I would love if it simply could not change, except to green.

I'm speaking out for consistency as well here! When other styles are able change completely to match the selected dye almost perfectly but one style isn't, that is INCONSISTENCY! Solution? Make all styles match the selected dyes all of the time on any style. How hard is that to understand?

Islyn

Djeriko wrote: »

So after many months of waiting and writs being completed, we finally see glass armor motifs in the crown store. For some its the first time we can craft glass armor in a full set. But once we get it, burn all of those precious malachites and then run to the dye table, we are blasted with by far the WORST JOB IN THE DYE SYSTEM SO FAR!

The blacks aren't even black, they are a very light grey that's almost white! The reds aren't even red, they are all just a shade of pink! And don't even get me started on the white colors. First the dye system lets us down because no one seems to want to get the SHIELD DYE SYSTEM working but now we get this lazy color by numbers hack of a system that just makes our earned dyes a waste since they are NEVER THE COLOR WE WANT! If you select red, you should get red. If you select black, you should get black. If you want pink, guess what?! All you have to do is select red and you got your pink thanks to whoever was responsible for the dye system on glass armor! Sorry ZOS, you dropped a major ball here!

@ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JasonLeavey can we see some kind of help here?

lol I went all manic on the dye system and how the colours were LOL when it first came out (and how they turned my armour pink, and incidentally quit for a few months the next day) and everyone said I was complaining over nothing.

The dyes are mostly hard work for the good ones and they never come out the same colour on 2 different things.

Infuriating.

Islyn

CJohnson81 wrote: »

I dunno guys, you all keep saying blue and black armor, but really I'm seeing white and gold.

I see what you did there!!

PrinceBoru

biggest let down ever?!
holy first world problems batman.
i think glass armor looks cool.

Djeriko

PrinceBoru wrote: »

biggest let down ever?!
holy first world problems batman.
i think glass armor looks cool.

The overall design of glass armor especially the heavy glass armor was great. They could have spent more time actually creating new weapons and shields that match the new style instead of just copying and pasting Skyrim's weapons and shield though. I found that the Ancient Elf shield matches the new glass armor in shape and minor details much better than the copy and paste Skyrim shield. SO anyone with heavy glass armor, try wearing an Ancient Elf shield and see how that looks (be aware that for some reason ZOS made it so that Ancient Elf shields are placed a little bit higher on the character's bodies than most shields...I mentioned that to them already also)

But the main thing was that the dyes don't just come out a little off, they come out completely different on glass. So much so that I have yet to actually see a red dye on my heavy glass armor. every dye applied to any of the metallic pieces comes out pink. It's so screwed up that the darker color reds come out a lighter shade of pink than the others.

All I can say is that it must have been programmed incorrectly or someone in the dye system area is severely color blind with no one to look over their shoulder and check their work.

Draxys

Can confirm, the rare dyes I'm using on my glass armor (heavy chest, medium legs, the rest light) are way less sexy than if it were like imperial or something.

Draxys

They seem to be especially disappointing on the heavy chest piece.

dsalter

got a few examples on my thread from a while back if that helps you get a rough idea of tints that can work

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219717/made-some-basic-previews-of-light-glass-armor-dyes#latest

Djeriko

dsalter wrote: »

got a few examples on my thread from a while back if that helps you get a rough idea of tints that can work

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219717/made-some-basic-previews-of-light-glass-armor-dyes#latest

I've noticed that metallic pieces of armor behave differently than cloth pieces. Sometimes better and sometimes worse. The heavy armor glass has a few places that are cloth (understandable since you want cloth or leather underneath the provide comfort) and it takes the same dye applied to metal differently. See my previous pics on earlier posts showing the full heavy glass in dyes.

Lucius_Aelius

Bump, it's bothered me for a while now that some armor just won't take dyes properly, currently I'm wearing Mercenary and the Engine Guardian set and despite dying it all Black, huge sections (all the metal parts) are still Grey, and Gold doesn't show up properly as Gold either, which would have been my second choice for it. I still like how it looks well enough to be getting on with, but this is annoying me all the more with all the different dyes I try on various armor sets and nothing being quite right.

The whole glass armor debate in this thread is beside the point, when even normal metal isn't dying properly on a number of sets. This should definitely be made a priority of some kind, it's not on the level of gamebreaking but is absolutely something that should be fixed as soon as possible. Giving us all this great armor and great dye colors is just a tease when combining them yields such subpar results, and there's almost no point even adding in systems like this when they don't work right because you just end up frustrating people by their vain attempts to make it work and put them off the game a little bit more in the process.

Also, while I'm discussing appearance options, #nomoreflaps

Djeriko

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Bump, it's bothered me for a while now that some armor just won't take dyes properly, currently I'm wearing Mercenary and the Engine Guardian set and despite dying it all Black, huge sections (all the metal parts) are still Grey, and Gold doesn't show up properly as Gold either, which would have been my second choice for it. I still like how it looks well enough to be getting on with, but this is annoying me all the more with all the different dyes I try on various armor sets and nothing being quite right.

The whole glass armor debate in this thread is beside the point, when even normal metal isn't dying properly on a number of sets. This should definitely be made a priority of some kind, it's not on the level of gamebreaking but is absolutely something that should be fixed as soon as possible. Giving us all this great armor and great dye colors is just a tease when combining them yields such subpar results, and there's almost no point even adding in systems like this when they don't work right because you just end up frustrating people by their vain attempts to make it work and put them off the game a little bit more in the process.

Also, while I'm discussing appearance options, #nomoreflaps

I never had mercenary armor but I was thinking about it. Thankfully mercenary armor Morris are cheap now so I tried it. You're very correct because mercenary suffers from the same incorrect dyes that Glass armor does. I shall from this point on make sure they know mercenary and Glass armor dyes are incorrect. Do you know of other styles that are messed up?. @ZOS_GinaBruno

Djeriko

Comparing Coldharbour Ash Black on multiple styles to Glass Heavy armor becomes comparing black to grey...



Comparing Pact Conqueror Red on multiple styles to Glass Heavy armor becomes comparing red to pink...



Comparing Covenant Conqueror Blue to light blue...



Dominion Conqueror Yellow to a little lighter yellow...



White actually looks about the same but needs work on the cloth areas, you would think cloth would be willing to accept dye better than hard metallic surfaces.



Keep in mind that both sets of armors are using the same dye with screen shots taken minutes apart so the lighting is the same as well as being made of the same material (rubedite) so the underlying metal should be red. Underlying color does not matter in this game obviously since you get the same result seen above regardless of what level the armor is. The argument of material is irrelevant Glass heavy armor as well as Mercenary heavy armor is suffering incorrect colors from the dye system. So I'll keep asking until someone on the dev team answers.

Why is the dye system producing incorrect colors for Glass heavy armor and Mercenary heavy armor? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert

Gargath

Well, most armors have similar problem in proper dyes on various parts.
So far the Xivkyn style is one of few looking best in all parts but...
Glass armor is not only one of the most awesome armors but also not so bad for dyes, especially that even as basic armor without dyes it looks great. It likes so much shiny gold or silver - with proper combinations looks queenly.
I personally love the look of my armor with
Alchemist Bilious (most awesome dye I unlocked so far, usually great light gold effect on all styles)
Nirnroot Gray (looks nice as 2-nd dye, I could not find any better, I agree that part of the armor could more like shiny dyes)
Coldharbour Ash Black (great finisher especially for helmet)






Here with daedric shield all in Alchemist Bilious



Definitely attracts attention


PS. belt and gloves are medium armor.

Saoirse_Siobhan

Yeah the Dye System is terrible, on one piece of armor it will look how it's supposed to be, and then if you apply that same colour to another piece, it's all faded and just god awful. I thought it might be my graphic settings or the light ingame but nope! I tried everything but it just doesn't work Arghhh!

Gargath

Terrible and awful sound so strong . I think system is quite good in what it actually offers. I understand the intention was that we play with dyes and styles and various armor parts, like a mini game, but not all must be perfect looking. The trick is to find a best dye on favourite armor from exisiting options, if we can't we change armor and so on. I doubt we can convince ZOS to improve dyeing. In fact imo they created this system in a way better than many other game developers and personally I'm grateful, for Alchemist Billious especially .

Saoirse_Siobhan

Gargath wrote: »

Terrible and awful sound so strong . I think system is quite good in what it actually offers. I understand the intention was that we play with dyes and styles and various armor parts, like a mini game, but not all must be perfect looking. The trick is to find a best dye on favourite armor from exisiting options, if we can't we change armor and so on. I doubt we can convince ZOS to improve dyeing. In fact imo they created this system in a way better than many other game developers and personally I'm grateful, for Alchemist Billious especially .

I agree that being able to dye armors is just so awesome. I may have gotten a little carried away in my previous comment LOL, but I was just remembering a VERY frustration hour when I was trying to get the colours I wanted but every single red (darker or lighter) would always end up being the same exact pink.