Another Molag Bal Kill - Another Loot Disappointment

Personofsecrets

timidobserver wrote: »

There is nothing that ZOS can/will do about this. If they gave loot based on aggro held, then you'd have everyone that isn't doing adequate heals/dps trying to spam taunts so they can hold aggro to get loot. If they gave loot based on damage blocked, again you'd have everyone that isn't doing adequate heals or dps trying to spam taunts to get aggro so they can block to get loot. If they removed the requirements and gave loot to anyone that tags the mob, you'd have people just afk tagging molag bal to get loot.

Basically, there is nothing in the imperial city pvp zones that needs a fully specced out PvE tank. You are honestly doing your group a disservice if you spec like this because you aren't going to be very much help when they get hit by other players since you can't tank other players like PvE mobs.

I'd say you should consider being more open minded about your role and build while in Imperial City. Considering being Tanky rather than a tank.

Dear @timidobserver ,

I would first like to thank you for leaving your input in this thread. I would like to sum up the points you have made.

1. Changing the loot system to better accommodate tanks isn't practical or possible.
2. Tanking isn't needed in the Imperial City.
3. Improve damage as a tank in order to have better loot chances rather than being a fully speced out tank.

---

Now I would like to address your points in order to show why they aren't necessarily correct.

A. Throughout history people have thought that many things are impossible; sailing the world and space flight would have been openly mocked at one point or another. Changing some coding and creating a system that better accommodates tanks getting loot is extremely trivial compared to those other accomplishments. Even non-developers can think of a system that could help tanks, you even mentioned a possibility (loot based on aggro held), so we shouldn't believe that bonafide developers wouldn't be able to come up with something.

B. Although tanking may not be needed in the Imperial City, that doesn't mean that tanking shouldn't be rewarded in the Imperial City. I'll have you know that players being able to go directly from PVE to PVP and being just as effective has been a long term vision of the game developers.

“The great thing about the PVP and the PVE gear is you can use it interchangeably. If you are a raider or if you are doing high end PVE content, then you can come right into PVP and you gear is going to be effective. You can be a person in PVP all the time, can earn some PVP gear and go into a high level dungeon. So it’s not like if you do one thing that you are excluded from the other. You can do them both interchangeably and we really think that that is what is going to make people feel together as one alliance as opposed to “oh you’re that type of player or you’re that type of player,” everybody kind of plays together and that’s one of the great things about the items in the game.” Brian Wheeler, Lead PVP Designer, E3 2013.

“MMORPG: Can you talk about PvP gear? Specifically, what distinguishes PvE gear from PvP gear? Is there a PvP stat?

Brian Wheeler: There’s no specific stat or anything along those lines. Any of the gear you get, independent of wherever you get it, is perfectly usable in PvP or PvE. The difference will be that some of the armor sets will have different passive abilities in PvE vs. PvP, but there’s nothing that’s really favoring one stat or anything like that, that you have to get for being a “good PvPer”. Brian Wheeler, Lead PVP Desinger, MMORG.com 2014

If the lead PVP designer, @ZOS_BrianWheeler thinks that players should be able to go from PVE to PVP and be just as effective, then who are we to argue with such an ideal? In short, even if tanking isn't needed per se, the developers encourage even very tanky building PVE players to be a part of PVP.

You are also underestimating the role of the tank. Positioning, Defile debuffs, and, especially, the Pierce Armor debuff all create virtual DPS. If we could hypothetically calculate all of this virtual damage, that is extra damage that get's done because a tank is using their debuffs, then we could easily find that virtual damage to add up to at least the damage that a single DPS player is achieving.

C. Finally, your idea that tanks should build more for PVP is problematic because it presupposes that tanks who do build for PVP aren't going to be having loot issues. I have a clear image of the tanking build that I am using for PVP. It is the same build that I used today, which didn't earn my loot from Molag Bal, and that is even after I used my mighty DK Standard which I empowered with the Might of the Guild passive.



So you see, even tanks who have builds with large amounts of spell damage and magic (all of my attribute points are into magic) can have a hard time getting loot in a moderate sized group.

---

In conclusion, not only could the developers come up with some system that rewards tanks, they should do so. They should do so because of their words about tanking. It is not true that players who adapt their tanking to PVP are going to start getting the loot that they are earning and that is despite their tremendous contribution to group DPS and survivability.

What do you think @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

Sincerely,

LT

Personofsecrets

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

if there are 12 or less everybody gets loot. solution is quit zerging and kindly ask any people following your group to form another group as there is a chance people wont get loot.

One sec, let me get the people that started following the group to leave. I'm sure they will and I'm sure nobody else will join.

Your point is moot.

for a start - start with a smaller group, all content in IC is doable in a group of 4 players, now 8 randoms could add you without harming your possible loot.
when you see there are more than 12 players forget about beeing a tank, switch in your dd equip like healers have to do as within a 12+ man group your healing contribution does not bring you on the loot table either.

Reread the post that you quoted please.

Personofsecrets

Nebthet78

Ran Bal 4 times tonight, and 3 times a couple nights ago.. still no loot from him. This is terrible.

Tankqull

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In conclusion, not only could the developers come up with some system that rewards tanks, they should do so. They should do so because of their words about tanking. It is not true that players who adapt their tanking to PVP are going to start getting the loot that they are earning and that is despite their tremendous contribution to group DPS and survivability.

Sincerely,

LT

well if your contribution would have been so tremendous, you would have been on the loottable
beside that there is allready a tank specific fight contribution stat in place - the more dmg you mitigate the more likely you recieve loot, problem is with the tons of ae effects down there every players is activly mitigationg alot of dmg reducing the amount you could gather, its the same healers face with all the powerfull side heals every one has now significantly reducing their fight contribution through healing to values they don´t get loot either.

and things get really wonky if you have more than 1 tank in your "group" entirley randomizing the aggro anyway rendering being a tank futile...

Personofsecrets

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In conclusion, not only could the developers come up with some system that rewards tanks, they should do so. They should do so because of their words about tanking. It is not true that players who adapt their tanking to PVP are going to start getting the loot that they are earning and that is despite their tremendous contribution to group DPS and survivability.

Sincerely,

LT

well if your contribution would have been so tremendous, you would have been on the loottable
beside that there is allready a tank specific fight contribution stat in place - the more dmg you mitigate the more likely you recieve loot, problem is with the tons of ae effects down there every players is activly mitigationg alot of dmg reducing the amount you could gather, its the same healers face with all the powerfull side heals every one has now significantly reducing their fight contribution through healing to values they don´t get loot either.

and things get really wonky if you have more than 1 tank in your "group" entirley randomizing the aggro anyway rendering being a tank futile...

Oh, I just realized how right you are. Things should stay totally the same and nothing should be done to make the game more consumer friendly for anyone who is having an issue. I've been so silly.

BuggeX

Killed him 4 Times,

3 Hokijitjoakdbhjasdjasbd Essence Runes

Personofsecrets

BuggeX wrote: »

Killed him 4 Times,

3 Hokijitjoakdbhjasdjasbd Essence Runes

grats

BuggeX

rng you know,

did you got some accessoire from the vault chest once?

Tankqull

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In conclusion, not only could the developers come up with some system that rewards tanks, they should do so. They should do so because of their words about tanking. It is not true that players who adapt their tanking to PVP are going to start getting the loot that they are earning and that is despite their tremendous contribution to group DPS and survivability.

Sincerely,

LT

well if your contribution would have been so tremendous, you would have been on the loottable
beside that there is allready a tank specific fight contribution stat in place - the more dmg you mitigate the more likely you recieve loot, problem is with the tons of ae effects down there every players is activly mitigationg alot of dmg reducing the amount you could gather, its the same healers face with all the powerfull side heals every one has now significantly reducing their fight contribution through healing to values they don´t get loot either.

and things get really wonky if you have more than 1 tank in your "group" entirley randomizing the aggro anyway rendering being a tank futile...

Oh, I just realized how right you are. Things should stay totally the same and nothing should be done to make the game more consumer friendly for anyone who is having an issue. I've been so silly.

how do you want to increase the tanks fight contribution?
make taunting impact more? -> every one will taunt to be guaranteed on the loot list nothing won for tanks.
increase the factor of dmg mitigation? -> does not help with the tons of aes the bosses down there spew around makeing everybody gathering tons of mitigation points.
so be more precise what is your proposal?

Personofsecrets

BuggeX wrote: »

rng you know,

did you got some accessoire from the vault chest once?

Well we aren't sure if 'rng is rng' in that Molag Bal picks the top 12 people in the money and chooses to give loot to some of them or of Molag Bal picks the top 12 people in the money and gives loot to all of them. We are thinking it is the later and, either way, the loot scheme is problematic for those who contribute by tanking.

Personofsecrets

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In conclusion, not only could the developers come up with some system that rewards tanks, they should do so. They should do so because of their words about tanking. It is not true that players who adapt their tanking to PVP are going to start getting the loot that they are earning and that is despite their tremendous contribution to group DPS and survivability.

Sincerely,

LT

well if your contribution would have been so tremendous, you would have been on the loottable
beside that there is allready a tank specific fight contribution stat in place - the more dmg you mitigate the more likely you recieve loot, problem is with the tons of ae effects down there every players is activly mitigationg alot of dmg reducing the amount you could gather, its the same healers face with all the powerfull side heals every one has now significantly reducing their fight contribution through healing to values they don´t get loot either.

and things get really wonky if you have more than 1 tank in your "group" entirley randomizing the aggro anyway rendering being a tank futile...

Oh, I just realized how right you are. Things should stay totally the same and nothing should be done to make the game more consumer friendly for anyone who is having an issue. I've been so silly.

how do you want to increase the tanks fight contribution?
make taunting impact more? -> every one will taunt to be guaranteed on the loot list nothing won for tanks.
increase the factor of dmg mitigation? -> does not help with the tons of aes the bosses down there spew around makeing everybody gathering tons of mitigation points.
so be more precise what is your proposal?

My proposal is that development be more considerate of tanks.

Leandor

Another story from Molag Bal(ls) Simulacrum: I was having a stint on my V7 healing templar, just wasting some time. Since my usual group was not active, I just joined a random zerg going in there and thought "might as well grab that achievement". All I did was healing and spamming JB after he dropped below 50%. Then I was one of a handful to survive his deathblast (because blocking is hard). I got loot.

Sadly, I have really good luck, since I have yet to see a rune there after approximately 20 kills over all my chars.

BuggeX

Personofsecrets wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

rng you know,

did you got some accessoire from the vault chest once?

Well we aren't sure if 'rng is rng' in that Molag Bal picks the top 12 people in the money and chooses to give loot to some of them or of Molag Bal picks the top 12 people in the money and gives loot to all of them. We are thinking it is the later and, either way, the loot scheme is problematic for those who contribute by tanking.

i was tanking to, with more or like the same build as you, well have seducer insteet of Magnus,
and dwemer set insteet of skoria, so my dps should be lesser than yours.

Personofsecrets

Leandor wrote: »

Another story from Molag Bal(ls) Simulacrum: I was having a stint on my V7 healing templar, just wasting some time. Since my usual group was not active, I just joined a random zerg going in there and thought "might as well grab that achievement". All I did was healing and spamming JB after he dropped below 50%. Then I was one of a handful to survive his deathblast (because blocking is hard). I got loot.

Sadly, I have really good luck, since I have yet to see a rune there after approximately 20 kills over all my chars.

The drop rate seems pretty low. Most of the time Molag seems to give trophies.

Personofsecrets

BuggeX wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

rng you know,

did you got some accessoire from the vault chest once?

Well we aren't sure if 'rng is rng' in that Molag Bal picks the top 12 people in the money and chooses to give loot to some of them or of Molag Bal picks the top 12 people in the money and gives loot to all of them. We are thinking it is the later and, either way, the loot scheme is problematic for those who contribute by tanking.

i was tanking to, with more or like the same build as you, well have seducer insteet of Magnus,
and dwemer set insteet of skoria, so my dps should be lesser than yours.

I should have saved my damage read out. I have no idea what it was unfortunately. Thank you for mentioning this idea as such a damage number could better show what is going on.

Leandor

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The drop rate seems pretty low. Most of the time Molag seems to give trophies.

QFT

Personofsecrets

Leandor wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The drop rate seems pretty low. Most of the time Molag seems to give trophies.

QFT

Do you know anyone who has gotten one of the pets from Mr. Bal?

Leandor

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The drop rate seems pretty low. Most of the time Molag seems to give trophies.

QFT

Do you know anyone who has gotten one of the pets from Mr. Bal?

Can't remember seeing it at all and only once saw the hoarvor pet so far...

Weberda

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The drop rate seems pretty low. Most of the time Molag seems to give trophies.

QFT

Do you know anyone who has gotten one of the pets from Mr. Bal?

The GM of one of my guilds got a pet scamp or something along those lines the other night. One of the folks he was with got a soul shriven costume also (now he can go back to looking like a level 1 character).

hrothbern

Tankqull wrote: »

for a start - start with a smaller group, all content in IC is doable in a group of 4 players, now 8 randoms could add you without harming your possible loot.
when you see there are more than 12 players forget about beeing a tank, switch in your dd equip like healers have to do as within a 12+ man group your healing contribution does not bring you on the loot table either.

Trying to stay in a smaller group is fine,
but...
A Healer and a Mag DD both need good Magicka, Magicka recovery, Spell Damage, also in the CP choices
so you can pragmatical toggle to a good degree !

but...
100 CP in blocking is suddenly useless for DD..

the issue is that the CP tree choices are too different for a tank and enough DD to gain loot.

So technical it works for Healers, not for tanks

Psychological it does not work at all:
people that want to support are of a different nature than people that like to deal damage.
That support is their fun.
And this game is about fun.

Fissh

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The drop rate seems pretty low. Most of the time Molag seems to give trophies.

QFT

Do you know anyone who has gotten one of the pets from Mr. Bal?

I have the pet.

SahrotRein

So far I've went mid only a few times but never had a single loot from Molag

Tankqull

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

In conclusion, not only could the developers come up with some system that rewards tanks, they should do so. They should do so because of their words about tanking. It is not true that players who adapt their tanking to PVP are going to start getting the loot that they are earning and that is despite their tremendous contribution to group DPS and survivability.

Sincerely,

LT

well if your contribution would have been so tremendous, you would have been on the loottable
beside that there is allready a tank specific fight contribution stat in place - the more dmg you mitigate the more likely you recieve loot, problem is with the tons of ae effects down there every players is activly mitigationg alot of dmg reducing the amount you could gather, its the same healers face with all the powerfull side heals every one has now significantly reducing their fight contribution through healing to values they don´t get loot either.

and things get really wonky if you have more than 1 tank in your "group" entirley randomizing the aggro anyway rendering being a tank futile...

Oh, I just realized how right you are. Things should stay totally the same and nothing should be done to make the game more consumer friendly for anyone who is having an issue. I've been so silly.

how do you want to increase the tanks fight contribution?
make taunting impact more? -> every one will taunt to be guaranteed on the loot list nothing won for tanks.
increase the factor of dmg mitigation? -> does not help with the tons of aes the bosses down there spew around makeing everybody gathering tons of mitigation points.
so be more precise what is your proposal?

My proposal is that development be more considerate of tanks.

the only way to do this is by restricting the numbers of players entering the area to 12 players per alliance and open up another instance once the one you´re in is filled or would be exceeded by the group size trying to join. (you can still be disturbed by 12 players of another alliance)
ZOS is not going to increase the number of players rewarded with loot as it will just push back the issue to another point or will flood the market if everybody participating would be rewarded effortlessly zerging baal down with 200 players ...

shugg

If u want to increase tanks damage make it so a target that is taunted, takes x more damage from the taunter, as players can not be taunted it would not effect pvp. If dps tried this in pve they would be killed by the mob/boss- have it as a s&b passive

BuggeX

shugg wrote: »

If u want to increase tanks damage make it so a target that is taunted, takes x more damage from the taunter, as players can not be taunted it would not effect pvp. If dps tried this in pve they would be killed by the mob/boss- have it as a s&b passive

i dont think tank Needs more dps, with the proper gear and Setup dk tanks can pull out more than 10k dps

Soriana

@Tankqull - by your logic, if dps or heals doesn't do enough 'tanking' duties (taunting and crowd control), then they should be taken off the loot table just like my tank who doesn't do enough 'dps and healer' duties? I fail to see the reasoning in that.

Vyle_Byte

I love all these people telling tanks they need more dps LOL! Cracks me up. Ya know what? NO. Remember when Healers didn't get jack sheet for simply healing? We spoke out and that changed. Should be the same for tanks. They SHOULD do something to change the fact that tanks aren't getting the drops bc they are fulfilling their role. I'm not even a tank and this peeves me.

MrBeatDown

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

I love all these people telling tanks they need more dps LOL! Cracks me up. Ya know what? NO. Remember when Healers didn't get jack sheet for simply healing? We spoke out and that changed. Should be the same for tanks. They SHOULD do something to change the fact that tanks aren't getting the drops bc they are fulfilling their role. I'm not even a tank and this peeves me.

Vouch

+1

OrphanHelgen

Stop going with zergs noob and you might get some loot