Patch 1.7 Commentary -- And how to Fix it

contact.opiumb16_ESO

I DO agree with the OP, except this "5. Remove barrier, meteor, healing springs from pvp [1, 2, 3]". I don't use any, but a don't think removing a skill or another is a good thing. Fix and balance them.

and i would say : give back soft caps (even for CP buffs) ! This only can allow a big variety of builds and stop the one shot system AKA damage stacking only.

Ishammael

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

I DO agree with the OP, except this "5. Remove barrier, meteor, healing springs from pvp [1, 2, 3]". I don't use any, but a don't think removing a skill or another is a good thing. Fix and balance them.

and i would say : give back soft caps ! This only can allow a big variety of builds and stop the one shot system AKA damage stacking only.

A fixed version of each of these skills would be great!

Ishammael

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Let's start with the positives:
1. The Imperial City zones are excellent -- moody, well-designed, nice detail. I love the claustrophobic environment and PvP encounters. I love this addition to the Cyrodiil Alliance War.
2. The new dungeons are excellent -- challenging, cool environments

Unfortunately, the balance changes for PvP are really terrible for the game. They are an absolute mess. I will reference @Ezareth 's recent discussion: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/210641/pts-feedback-combat-has-become-uninteresting-and-far-less-enjoyable/p1

Ezareth wrote: »

...
The only way I've found to have the stamina to ensure I have the stamina to continue fighting is to just spam my damage abilities over and over and nothing else. Not only is this actually effective in 2.1....is pretty darn *boring*. And that is what combat has become to me in the 6 or 7 hours I've spent wandering around IC. Boring and uninteresting. The things that made combat to me interesting (even on my Sorc); Bashing and blocking have an unacceptable cost attached to them which makes no sense

I don't want this to become all doom and gloom. I've waited for IC for so long and had such high hopes for it but I find myself looking forward to patch day with trepidation, not excitement. Something needs to be done here to not penalize skillful play, while restricting the abuse of permadodging/permablocking. If this goes live as it is, I can't see myself lasting very long as the combat was the only thing other than my friends that keep my playing this game.

I also want to re-emphasize @Ezareth final paragraph -- I've waited too long and with such high hopes for IC that I want it to be a success.
The root of the problem for all of the 1.7 changes is that they don't fix underlying issues.
The exception is nirnhoned and penetration -- thank you for fixing this.
These problems are:
1. Lag
2. Almighty-Zerg meta and fewer viable methods to run as a small group or single player
3. Ability and armor bugs, inconsistencies, and imbalances
4. Champion System imbalance and scaling.

Symptoms of these problems are low TTK, power gap between new and old players, class imbalance, infinite resources, "one-shot-one-kill", &c.

Rather than a litany of complaints, I have written a set of suggestions. All are simple methods for fixing the problems [with references] rather than addressing symptoms:

1. Throw away all 1.7 balance changes (50% dmg debuff, no stam while blocking, etc.) with the exception of the nirnhoned and penetration fixes. [0, 3] The zones and dungeons are excellent.
2. Write the next "road ahead" article. Explain the vision for the game. Where are we going What are the next steps Why should I give you money?!?! [0-4]
3. Add new objectives throughout the Cyrodiil zone -- flags at the towns (Bruma, Chey, etc.) -- more Transitus connections -- more outposts -- more buffs like Ayleid wells [1, 2]
4. Dynamic ultimate generation, toned down from 1.5 rates [2, 4]
5. Remove barrier, meteor, healing springs from pvp [1, 2, 3]
6. Nerf steel tornado to 8m, impulse back to 8m (leave damage as is) [2]
7. Uncap AoE completely [1, 2]
8. Reinstate forward camps, modified for spawn within radius that is approx the size of a keep plus its resources, with a resurrection timer. [1, 2]
9. HP ratio back to 1.5:1:1 [2, 4]
10. Leave siege dmg as is, reinstate un-purgeable oil catpults. [2]
11. Buff keep guards 50% [4]
12. Revert z axis nerfs to gap closers like DK leap and Ambush (Not for pulls like chains and silver leash) [2]
13. Block nerf should scale block cost as a function of time holding block, not remove regen
14. No shield debuff in cyrodil, only allow one active shield at a time, allow shields to be critable [4]
15. Magicka detonation should scale inversely with the number of friends around you and proportionally with the number of enemies hit [2, 4]
16. Create a list of skills for each class that are not used and replace them with usefull abilities [3].
17. Heavy armor substantial buff [3].
18. Across-the-board ability balancing holistically; i.e. Wrecking Blow, Snipe, Crystal Frags, Whip, etc. should all be balanced around class, playstyle, stam vs. magicka, etc., so that balance issues are seen at macro-level rather than individually. See point (2). [3]

While I support the general direction you are trying to go, some of these you dont put enough consideration into the consequences of these suggestions (which is that same thing ZoS does).

1. re: 5 no meteor, barrier, healing springs: you keep preaching this and people keep telling you healing springs is an essential skill and barrier performs a legitimate function.
2. re: 12 chains/ambush: pulling people off castle walls is OP. NBs ambushing into walled keeps and insta-murdering people on siege causes rage quits.
3. re 14: One shield: Sorcerer casts her hardened ward and then receives a 1k shield form another player's item set bonus. Sorcerer then dies horribly.
4. re 15 prox detonation: Interesting, but main problem I have with the skill is it is insane single target ability which is completely contrary to its intended function. I'd just prefer they make the skill function like old ground oils.
5. re 18: While there are too many craptastic abilities, I think the main problem with TTK is that spell/weapon power is too obvious best in slot and it is possible to crazy stack this *and* have high sustain and defense, which should not be possible. Nerfing the damage to wrecking blow won't balance the game.

Thanks for this list of responses!
1. You are, of course, correct. All of these abilities perform legitimate, powerful functions. I simply want a lag free environment -- anecdotally, healing springs and meteors are huge culprits.
2. You are right. It was just preference -- it was fun as crap leaping into keeps.
3. Ooooooh old ground oils!! Great idea!
4. What I meant is that an overall balance approach would be better than slapping 50% reduced damage and healing on everything. Wrecking blow was simply an example. The nerf to spell and weapon damage set bonuses was absolutely needed, agreed.

Minno

Ishammael wrote: »

Let's start with the positives:
1. The Imperial City zones are excellent -- moody, well-designed, nice detail. I love the claustrophobic environment and PvP encounters. I love this addition to the Cyrodiil Alliance War.
2. The new dungeons are excellent -- challenging, cool environments

Unfortunately, the balance changes for PvP are really terrible for the game. They are an absolute mess. I will reference @Ezareth 's recent discussion: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/210641/pts-feedback-combat-has-become-uninteresting-and-far-less-enjoyable/p1

Ezareth wrote: »

...
The only way I've found to have the stamina to ensure I have the stamina to continue fighting is to just spam my damage abilities over and over and nothing else. Not only is this actually effective in 2.1....is pretty darn *boring*. And that is what combat has become to me in the 6 or 7 hours I've spent wandering around IC. Boring and uninteresting. The things that made combat to me interesting (even on my Sorc); Bashing and blocking have an unacceptable cost attached to them which makes no sense

I don't want this to become all doom and gloom. I've waited for IC for so long and had such high hopes for it but I find myself looking forward to patch day with trepidation, not excitement. Something needs to be done here to not penalize skillful play, while restricting the abuse of permadodging/permablocking. If this goes live as it is, I can't see myself lasting very long as the combat was the only thing other than my friends that keep my playing this game.

I also want to re-emphasize @Ezareth final paragraph -- I've waited too long and with such high hopes for IC that I want it to be a success.
The root of the problem for all of the 1.7 changes is that they don't fix underlying issues.
The exception is nirnhoned and penetration -- thank you for fixing this.
These problems are:
1. Lag
2. Almighty-Zerg meta and fewer viable methods to run as a small group or single player
3. Ability and armor bugs, inconsistencies, and imbalances
4. Champion System imbalance and scaling.

Symptoms of these problems are low TTK, power gap between new and old players, class imbalance, infinite resources, "one-shot-one-kill", &c.

Rather than a litany of complaints, I have written a set of suggestions. All are simple methods for fixing the problems [with references] rather than addressing symptoms:

1. Throw away all 1.7 balance changes (50% dmg debuff, no stam while blocking, etc.) with the exception of the nirnhoned and penetration fixes. [0, 3] The zones and dungeons are excellent.
2. Write the next "road ahead" article. Explain the vision for the game. Where are we going What are the next steps Why should I give you money?!?! [0-4]
3. Add new objectives throughout the Cyrodiil zone -- flags at the towns (Bruma, Chey, etc.) -- more Transitus connections -- more outposts -- more buffs like Ayleid wells [1, 2]
4. Dynamic ultimate generation, toned down from 1.5 rates [2, 4]
5. Remove barrier, meteor, healing springs from pvp [1, 2, 3]
6. Nerf steel tornado to 8m, impulse back to 8m (leave damage as is) [2]
7. Uncap AoE completely [1, 2]
8. Reinstate forward camps, modified for spawn within radius that is approx the size of a keep plus its resources, with a resurrection timer. [1, 2]
9. HP ratio back to 1.5:1:1 [2, 4]
10. Leave siege dmg as is, reinstate un-purgeable oil catpults. [2]
11. Buff keep guards 50% [4]
12. Revert z axis nerfs to gap closers like DK leap and Ambush (Not for pulls like chains and silver leash) [2]
13. Block nerf should scale block cost as a function of time holding block, not remove regen
14. No shield debuff in cyrodil, only allow one active shield at a time, allow shields to be critable [4]
15. Magicka detonation should scale inversely with the number of friends around you and proportionally with the number of enemies hit [2, 4]
16. Create a list of skills for each class that are not used and replace them with usefull abilities [3].
17. Heavy armor substantial buff [3].
18. Across-the-board ability balancing holistically; i.e. Wrecking Blow, Snipe, Crystal Frags, Whip, etc. should all be balanced around class, playstyle, stam vs. magicka, etc., so that balance issues are seen at macro-level rather than individually. See point (2). [3]

All of this!

trimsic_ESO

Almost all your proposed changes make sense and would help improving the game.

Ishammael

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Almost all your proposed changes make sense and would help improving the game.

Thanks!

Morimizo

Ishammael wrote: »

13. Block nerf should scale block cost as a function of time holding block, not remove regen

This seems a nice compromise; the whole point is to get folks to not permablock. If for every second a player holds block, the stamina costs goes up exponentially (even with regen as is in 2.0), block would have to be dropped often. Even if block was mashed quickly to avoid the penalty, there would still be frequent openings for attacks to get through. Seems like this would force skillful, well-timed blocking

AngryNord

Where's this mythical patch 1.7 everybody's talking about? On live we have 2.0.x, on PTS we now have 2.1.3...

blistb16_ESO

13. Block nerf should scale block cost as a function of time holding block, not remove regen

Also, after dropping block add a delay before resetting the block cost.
Probably the best way to get rid of the perma blocker, without being unfair to build with high stamina regen.

Joy_Division

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Let's start with the positives:
1. The Imperial City zones are excellent -- moody, well-designed, nice detail. I love the claustrophobic environment and PvP encounters. I love this addition to the Cyrodiil Alliance War.
2. The new dungeons are excellent -- challenging, cool environments

Unfortunately, the balance changes for PvP are really terrible for the game. They are an absolute mess. I will reference @Ezareth 's recent discussion: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/210641/pts-feedback-combat-has-become-uninteresting-and-far-less-enjoyable/p1

Ezareth wrote: »

...
The only way I've found to have the stamina to ensure I have the stamina to continue fighting is to just spam my damage abilities over and over and nothing else. Not only is this actually effective in 2.1....is pretty darn *boring*. And that is what combat has become to me in the 6 or 7 hours I've spent wandering around IC. Boring and uninteresting. The things that made combat to me interesting (even on my Sorc); Bashing and blocking have an unacceptable cost attached to them which makes no sense

I don't want this to become all doom and gloom. I've waited for IC for so long and had such high hopes for it but I find myself looking forward to patch day with trepidation, not excitement. Something needs to be done here to not penalize skillful play, while restricting the abuse of permadodging/permablocking. If this goes live as it is, I can't see myself lasting very long as the combat was the only thing other than my friends that keep my playing this game.

I also want to re-emphasize @Ezareth final paragraph -- I've waited too long and with such high hopes for IC that I want it to be a success.
The root of the problem for all of the 1.7 changes is that they don't fix underlying issues.
The exception is nirnhoned and penetration -- thank you for fixing this.
These problems are:
1. Lag
2. Almighty-Zerg meta and fewer viable methods to run as a small group or single player
3. Ability and armor bugs, inconsistencies, and imbalances
4. Champion System imbalance and scaling.

Symptoms of these problems are low TTK, power gap between new and old players, class imbalance, infinite resources, "one-shot-one-kill", &c.

Rather than a litany of complaints, I have written a set of suggestions. All are simple methods for fixing the problems [with references] rather than addressing symptoms:

1. Throw away all 1.7 balance changes (50% dmg debuff, no stam while blocking, etc.) with the exception of the nirnhoned and penetration fixes. [0, 3] The zones and dungeons are excellent.
2. Write the next "road ahead" article. Explain the vision for the game. Where are we going What are the next steps Why should I give you money?!?! [0-4]
3. Add new objectives throughout the Cyrodiil zone -- flags at the towns (Bruma, Chey, etc.) -- more Transitus connections -- more outposts -- more buffs like Ayleid wells [1, 2]
4. Dynamic ultimate generation, toned down from 1.5 rates [2, 4]
5. Remove barrier, meteor, healing springs from pvp [1, 2, 3]
6. Nerf steel tornado to 8m, impulse back to 8m (leave damage as is) [2]
7. Uncap AoE completely [1, 2]
8. Reinstate forward camps, modified for spawn within radius that is approx the size of a keep plus its resources, with a resurrection timer. [1, 2]
9. HP ratio back to 1.5:1:1 [2, 4]
10. Leave siege dmg as is, reinstate un-purgeable oil catpults. [2]
11. Buff keep guards 50% [4]
12. Revert z axis nerfs to gap closers like DK leap and Ambush (Not for pulls like chains and silver leash) [2]
13. Block nerf should scale block cost as a function of time holding block, not remove regen
14. No shield debuff in cyrodil, only allow one active shield at a time, allow shields to be critable [4]
15. Magicka detonation should scale inversely with the number of friends around you and proportionally with the number of enemies hit [2, 4]
16. Create a list of skills for each class that are not used and replace them with usefull abilities [3].
17. Heavy armor substantial buff [3].
18. Across-the-board ability balancing holistically; i.e. Wrecking Blow, Snipe, Crystal Frags, Whip, etc. should all be balanced around class, playstyle, stam vs. magicka, etc., so that balance issues are seen at macro-level rather than individually. See point (2). [3]

While I support the general direction you are trying to go, some of these you dont put enough consideration into the consequences of these suggestions (which is that same thing ZoS does).

1. re: 5 no meteor, barrier, healing springs: you keep preaching this and people keep telling you healing springs is an essential skill and barrier performs a legitimate function.
2. re: 12 chains/ambush: pulling people off castle walls is OP. NBs ambushing into walled keeps and insta-murdering people on siege causes rage quits.
3. re 14: One shield: Sorcerer casts her hardened ward and then receives a 1k shield form another player's item set bonus. Sorcerer then dies horribly.
4. re 15 prox detonation: Interesting, but main problem I have with the skill is it is insane single target ability which is completely contrary to its intended function. I'd just prefer they make the skill function like old ground oils.
5. re 18: While there are too many craptastic abilities, I think the main problem with TTK is that spell/weapon power is too obvious best in slot and it is possible to crazy stack this *and* have high sustain and defense, which should not be possible. Nerfing the damage to wrecking blow won't balance the game.

Thanks for this list of responses!
1. You are, of course, correct. All of these abilities perform legitimate, powerful functions. I simply want a lag free environment -- anecdotally, healing springs and meteors are huge culprits.
2. You are right. It was just preference -- it was fun as crap leaping into keeps.
3. Ooooooh old ground oils!! Great idea!
4. What I meant is that an overall balance approach would be better than slapping 50% reduced damage and healing on everything. Wrecking blow was simply an example. The nerf to spell and weapon damage set bonuses was absolutely needed, agreed.

1. So do I. That does not mean we should heed worthless anecdotal evidence at the cost of removing needed and legitimate skills.
2. By all means PLEASE DK leap into keeps. I love it when DKs do this. I so often try to incite this by standing close the the edge of castle walls, I often fall down! If a DK wants to blow an ultimate just to fight me fair and square, I say let them. Those cheezebag NBs who use a regular skill to enter a keep and then wait for me to get on siege and then gank me when I can't fight back deserve a perma-ban. The difference is night and day.
3. Yes, it is
4. Yes, I know where you are trying to go, but I don't trust Zenimax not to read your post and say "wow, we just need to nerf high damage abilities and all will be fine and dandy." Crystal frags, wrecking blow, whips, etc., all of these hit hard and we didn't complain about them in 1.5. Lethal arrow was really the only culprit, but that was more of the craven "play"style of its practitioners than the skill itself.