20 percent more Stam recovery for sorcs wasn't the best idea, here's a suggestion.

Zsymon

Bound Armaments now gives you Minor Resolve, +11% heavy attack damage, +8% max stamina, +20% stamina recovery and 2% weapon damage. These are awesome stats, you'd be a fool not to slot that. This alone makes stam Sorcs viable, combine it with Thundering Presence and Dark Deal and you're good to go. Some of the elite players are discovering this now (which is how I know it's viable), and they are loving it.

Mr_Koh

Zsymon wrote: »

Bound Armaments now gives you Minor Resolve, +11% heavy attack damage, +8% max stamina, +20% stamina recovery and 2% weapon damage. These are awesome stats, you'd be a fool not to slot that. This alone makes stam Sorcs viable, combine it with Thundering Presence and Dark Deal and you're good to go. Some of the elite players are discovering this now (which is how I know it's viable), and they are loving it.

Viable for pve. You'd get rekt in pvp with dark deal and bound armaments. There are too many better abilities to slot on the bar. They should detach the stam recovery from that ability.

"elite players" lol

DDuke

Mr_Koh wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Bound Armaments now gives you Minor Resolve, +11% heavy attack damage, +8% max stamina, +20% stamina recovery and 2% weapon damage. These are awesome stats, you'd be a fool not to slot that. This alone makes stam Sorcs viable, combine it with Thundering Presence and Dark Deal and you're good to go. Some of the elite players are discovering this now (which is how I know it's viable), and they are loving it.

Viable for pve. You'd get rekt in pvp with dark deal and bound armaments. There are too many better abilities to slot on the bar. They should detach the stam recovery from that ability.

"elite players" lol

If there aren't too many better abilities for a stam NB to slot, I doubt there are for a sorcerer... I would slot this toggle on both bars any day on my NB, as would anyone who has a clue on how to play a stam build. It's all about min-maxing your stats while having the essential tools required to deal with different PvP situations.

Basicly all you need to be viable in PvP is one main DPS ability (e.g. surprise attack, wrecking blow), one gap closer (e.g. ambush, crit rush), one survival ability (e.g. cloak/bolt escape) & Vigor (or Rally). Done, finito.

The rest are icing on the cake.


Yet, I can guarantee you some people fail even with this basic concept.

Mr_Koh

You need both vigor and rally, and you'll need a cc, one that isn't wrecking blow. Yeah catching someone with the wrecking blow knockup can at times pretty much secure a kill, but you'll need faster cc's than that, and pref one that works on blockers. I would really like to know what you would replace on both bars on a nightblade to slot bound armaments, because I can guarantee you that even if this ability was for a nightblade it would be a bad idea. (speaking in terms of pvp). But looking past your l2p suggestions all I was saying was that they should detach the 20 percent regen to the abilities in the Daedric summoning tree.

Dracane

DDuke wrote: »

Mr_Koh wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

Bound Armaments now gives you Minor Resolve, +11% heavy attack damage, +8% max stamina, +20% stamina recovery and 2% weapon damage. These are awesome stats, you'd be a fool not to slot that. This alone makes stam Sorcs viable, combine it with Thundering Presence and Dark Deal and you're good to go. Some of the elite players are discovering this now (which is how I know it's viable), and they are loving it.

Viable for pve. You'd get rekt in pvp with dark deal and bound armaments. There are too many better abilities to slot on the bar. They should detach the stam recovery from that ability.

"elite players" lol

If there aren't too many better abilities for a stam NB to slot, I doubt there are for a sorcerer... I would slot this toggle on both bars any day on my NB, as would anyone who has a clue on how to play a stam build. It's all about min-maxing your stats while having the essential tools required to deal with different PvP situations.

Basicly all you need to be viable in PvP is one main DPS ability (e.g. surprise attack, wrecking blow), one gap closer (e.g. ambush, crit rush), one survival ability (e.g. cloak/bolt escape) & Vigor (or Rally). Done, finito.

The rest are icing on the cake.


Yet, I can guarantee you some people fail even with this basic concept.

That's true

DDuke

Mr_Koh wrote: »

You need both vigor and rally, and you'll need a cc, one that isn't wrecking blow. Yeah catching someone with the wrecking blow knockup can at times pretty much secure a kill, but you'll need faster cc's than that, and pref one that works on blockers. I would really like to know what you would replace on both bars on a nightblade to slot bound armaments, because I can guarantee you that even if this ability was for a nightblade it would be a bad idea. (speaking in terms of pvp). But looking past your l2p suggestions all I was saying was that they should detach the 20 percent regen to the abilities in the Daedric summoning tree.

• You don't need both Vigor & Rally, I think my videos are a good proof of that.
• You don't need a CC Stamina Drain either, my Bow/DW build doesn't use one at all. But it is one of the "icings" on the cake and you can slot it on either 1st or 2nd bar (there should still be 4 slots left even after slotting essential skills).

As to what I would change on my current DW/DW build... I would swap out Shadow Image (can be handy, just doesn't see much use with my build/playstyle) & either Mass Hysteria or Mirage. Probably Mirage.
Perhaps even Camo Hunter, since the unlimited duration bug is going to get fixed.

Erock25

I'm laughing at the fact that bolt escape was called a survivability tool for stam sorcs. Also, nb don't need vigor and rally because of all the damage they shrug off by using cloak.

DDuke

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm laughing at the fact that bolt escape was called a survivability tool for stam sorcs. Also, nb don't need vigor and rally because of all the damage they shrug off by using cloak.

Yes, I would call an ability that stuns all melee attackers near you & teleports you out of their range a survivability tool. A tool which you can use 2-3 times in a row to get you completely out of range of everything except Snipe, after which you can pop the best speed buff in game, Lightning Form, and sprint away (as a stamina build) with +40% Movement Speed & 12.5% less damage taken (Major Resolve & Ward).

Also, the last portion of your comment demonstrates how little you know of this game.

Cloak is not used to "shrug off damage" on Live since it is incredibly unreliable and straight out useless against anyone with a detection potion or NB mark slotted. Most sorcerers also tend to spam you with Velocious Curse, making it almost useless for defense (you can still use it for Ambush+SA combo though, with good timing).
Roll dodge/block are your main tools for survival as a stamina NB (along with Vigor or Rally).

Luckily, cloak is much better on the PTS.

Septimus_Magna

Zsymon wrote: »

Bound Armaments now gives you Minor Resolve, +11% heavy attack damage, +8% max stamina, +20% stamina recovery and 2% weapon damage. These are awesome stats, you'd be a fool not to slot that. This alone makes stam Sorcs viable, combine it with Thundering Presence and Dark Deal and you're good to go. Some of the elite players are discovering this now (which is how I know it's viable), and they are loving it.

As awesome as the stats may be, how does this help stam sorcs who dont have a single stam damage ability and who can only cast streak 2-3 times before completely running out of magicka?

Bound Arnements and its passive would be great on a stamblade but it still leaves stam sorcs at the bottom of the stam classes.

Mr_Koh

DDuke wrote: »

Mr_Koh wrote: »

You need both vigor and rally, and you'll need a cc, one that isn't wrecking blow. Yeah catching someone with the wrecking blow knockup can at times pretty much secure a kill, but you'll need faster cc's than that, and pref one that works on blockers. I would really like to know what you would replace on both bars on a nightblade to slot bound armaments, because I can guarantee you that even if this ability was for a nightblade it would be a bad idea. (speaking in terms of pvp). But looking past your l2p suggestions all I was saying was that they should detach the 20 percent regen to the abilities in the Daedric summoning tree.

• You don't need both Vigor & Rally, I think my videos are a good proof of that.
• You don't need a CC Stamina Drain either, my Bow/DW build doesn't use one at all. But it is one of the "icings" on the cake and you can slot it on either 1st or 2nd bar (there should still be 4 slots left even after slotting essential skills).

As to what I would change on my current DW/DW build... I would swap out Shadow Image (can be handy, just doesn't see much use with my build/playstyle) & either Mass Hysteria or Mirage. Probably Mirage.
Perhaps even Camo Hunter, since the unlimited duration bug is going to get fixed.

Dude I just looked at your build and idk what to say but lol. Your build is a great example of how limited stam sorcs will be since zenimax overloaded that one ability bound armaments. disconnect the stam regen from having to use a Daedric summoning ability and stam sorcs will be in a decent place. This is all I'm asking. All magicka sorcs will receive this 20 percent anyways since Hardened ward is the most essential ability on a magicka sorcs bar. Bound armaments does not fill that "essential" role for stam sorcs, maybe in pve but not in pvp. Disconnect the regen from the ability, and it will boost the power of magicka sorcs everywhere just like you intended zos. Please thank you.

Erock25

DDuke wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm laughing at the fact that bolt escape was called a survivability tool for stam sorcs. Also, nb don't need vigor and rally because of all the damage they shrug off by using cloak.

Yes, I would call an ability that stuns all melee attackers near you & teleports you out of their range a survivability tool. A tool which you can use 2-3 times in a row to get you completely out of range of everything except Snipe, after which you can pop the best speed buff in game, Lightning Form, and sprint away (as a stamina build) with +40% Movement Speed & 12.5% less damage taken (Major Resolve & Ward).

Also, the last portion of your comment demonstrates how little you know of this game.

Cloak is not used to "shrug off damage" on Live since it is incredibly unreliable and straight out useless against anyone with a detection potion or NB mark slotted. Most sorcerers also tend to spam you with Velocious Curse, making it almost useless for defense (you can still use it for Ambush+SA combo though, with good timing).
Roll dodge/block are your main tools for survival as a stamina NB (along with Vigor or Rally).

Luckily, cloak is much better on the PTS.

Sorry dduke but streak does not come close to dark cloak for helping a stamina build. I've watched your pvp vids and the amount of damage and focus you mitigate because of cloak is huge. I look forward to you getting your stam sorc to max level and trying it out for yourself.

Ezareth

Erock25 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm laughing at the fact that bolt escape was called a survivability tool for stam sorcs. Also, nb don't need vigor and rally because of all the damage they shrug off by using cloak.

Yes, I would call an ability that stuns all melee attackers near you & teleports you out of their range a survivability tool. A tool which you can use 2-3 times in a row to get you completely out of range of everything except Snipe, after which you can pop the best speed buff in game, Lightning Form, and sprint away (as a stamina build) with +40% Movement Speed & 12.5% less damage taken (Major Resolve & Ward).

Also, the last portion of your comment demonstrates how little you know of this game.

Cloak is not used to "shrug off damage" on Live since it is incredibly unreliable and straight out useless against anyone with a detection potion or NB mark slotted. Most sorcerers also tend to spam you with Velocious Curse, making it almost useless for defense (you can still use it for Ambush+SA combo though, with good timing).
Roll dodge/block are your main tools for survival as a stamina NB (along with Vigor or Rally).

Luckily, cloak is much better on the PTS.

Sorry dduke but streak does not come close to dark cloak for helping a stamina build. I've watched your pvp vids and the amount of damage and focus you mitigate because of cloak is huge. I look forward to you getting your stam sorc to max level and trying it out for yourself.

I don't even slot cloak on my stamblade. It's a crutch for gankers and there isnt a ganker out there who has jumped me from stealth that I didn't kill 1v1....including most of the major gankers names not on DC. Hell I've won a few 2v1s and even a couple 3 v 1s where I was jumped by NBs.

The reason I wouldn't use bound armaments on my NB however is the fact that I'd lose my major resistance passive upon casting mass histeria that currently stacks with Nirn and makes it worthwhile. In 2.1 however with the stamina regent losses I'd definitely consider it given how much other stam regen I'm stacking that is multiplicative with it.

FENGRUSH

cloak disjoints projectiles - how is this bad?!

Xael

This discussion is so far from reality it's not even worth continuing at this point. Everyone is convinced the other class is either OP or just fine and this could not be further from the truth.

Comparing a Nightblade to Sorcerer is very duplicitous. First of all the Sorcerer does not have the passives and other morphs to fall back on, let alone the skills that synergize with both Magicka/Stamina regardless of build like a Nightblade does. That right there is reason enough to end this back and forth comparison.

exiledtyrant

I don't see where all the bound armaments hate is coming from. Sorcerers now have the highest potential weapon damage and stamina in the game. The stamina buff alone was going to to edge us ahead of templar's weapon damage passive after a few hundred CP ( which some people are reaching now.) Now we get even more.

You are only hurting yourself at this point by not slotting bound armor for either spec. Since IC combined PVE and PVP together ( something I am against to begin with) I can see how people feel they lack the skills needed. I personally use very different skills for PVE and PVP. Outside of IC however this is not a problem. Inside IC I would suggest grouping to cover for you PVE weaknesses in your PVP spec. 8 slots is still plenty of room for a damage bar and a utility bar.

My DW wield bar is going to be:
Bar 1

Flying Blade
Whirling Blades ( another 20% regen to go with my daedric and redguard for 49%)
Surge
Thundering Presence
Bound Armaments
Flawless Dawnbreaker

Bar 2

Rune Cage
Rapid strikes ( 25% damage under rune cage)
Vigor
Dark deal
Bound Armaments
Soul Assault ( 40k damage that doesn't break rune cage)


I could swap my bar two dual wield with a two handed and go wrecking blow instead of rapid and rally instead of dark deal.

I can easily hit 2200+ stamina regen with only 3 jewelry regen enchants. Spec for cost and all of my skills are under my stamina regen meaning my stam bar doesn't even move with skill usage. Weapon damage is hitting well into the 4k+ range. I also gained about 5k extra stamina compared to live which translates to roughly 500 more weapon damage toward skill scaling. These are good things.


Thematically I would like a stamina based class attack. Dark deal is becoming obsolete with our ability to regain so much stamina as is. It may need another rework. Credit should be given where it's due however. The stats gained this patch are near perfect if not a little over tuned.

FENGRUSH

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I don't see where all the bound armaments hate is coming from. Sorcerers now have the highest potential weapon damage and stamina in the game. The stamina buff alone was going to to edge us ahead of templar's weapon damage passive after a few hundred CP ( which some people are reaching now.) Now we get even more.

You are only hurting yourself at this point by not slotting bound armor for either spec. Since IC combined PVE and PVP together ( something I am against to begin with) I can see how people feel they lack the skills needed. I personally use very different skills for PVE and PVP. Outside of IC however this is not a problem. Inside IC I would suggest grouping to cover for you PVE weaknesses in your PVP spec. 8 slots is still plenty of room for a damage bar and a utility bar.

My DW wield bar is going to be:
Bar 1

Flying Blade
Whirling Blades ( another 20% regen to go with my daedric and redguard for 49%)
Surge
Thundering Presence
Bound Armaments
Flawless Dawnbreaker

Bar 2

Rune Cage
Rapid strikes ( 25% damage under rune cage)
Vigor
Dark deal
Bound Armaments
Soul Assault ( 40k damage that doesn't break rune cage)


I could swap my bar two dual wield with a two handed and go wrecking blow instead of rapid and rally instead of dark deal.

I can easily hit 2200+ stamina regen with only 3 jewelry regen enchants. Spec for cost and all of my skills are under my stamina regen meaning my stam bar doesn't even move with skill usage. Weapon damage is hitting well into the 4k+ range. I also gained about 5k extra stamina compared to live which translates to roughly 500 more weapon damage toward skill scaling. These are good things.


Thematically I would like a stamina based class attack. Dark deal is becoming obsolete with our ability to regain so much stamina as is. It may need another rework. Credit should be given where it's due however. The stats gained this patch are near perfect if not a little over tuned.

Let me know if you want to fight with that build so you can see how awful it is.

Ezareth

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Let me know if you want to fight with that build so you can see how awful it is.

QFT.

I don't even think FENGRUSH could pull off a build that bad.

Xael

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I don't see where all the bound armaments hate is coming from. Sorcerers now have the highest potential weapon damage and stamina in the game. The stamina buff alone was going to to edge us ahead of templar's weapon damage passive after a few hundred CP ( which some people are reaching now.) Now we get even more.

You are only hurting yourself at this point by not slotting bound armor for either spec. Since IC combined PVE and PVP together ( something I am against to begin with) I can see how people feel they lack the skills needed. I personally use very different skills for PVE and PVP. Outside of IC however this is not a problem. Inside IC I would suggest grouping to cover for you PVE weaknesses in your PVP spec. 8 slots is still plenty of room for a damage bar and a utility bar.

My DW wield bar is going to be:
Bar 1

Flying Blade
Whirling Blades ( another 20% regen to go with my daedric and redguard for 49%)
Surge
Thundering Presence
Bound Armaments
Flawless Dawnbreaker

Bar 2

Rune Cage
Rapid strikes ( 25% damage under rune cage)
Vigor
Dark deal
Bound Armaments
Soul Assault ( 40k damage that doesn't break rune cage)


I could swap my bar two dual wield with a two handed and go wrecking blow instead of rapid and rally instead of dark deal.

I can easily hit 2200+ stamina regen with only 3 jewelry regen enchants. Spec for cost and all of my skills are under my stamina regen meaning my stam bar doesn't even move with skill usage. Weapon damage is hitting well into the 4k+ range. I also gained about 5k extra stamina compared to live which translates to roughly 500 more weapon damage toward skill scaling. These are good things.


Thematically I would like a stamina based class attack. Dark deal is becoming obsolete with our ability to regain so much stamina as is. It may need another rework. Credit should be given where it's due however. The stats gained this patch are near perfect if not a little over tuned.

With the PTS gear and stacking Weapon Damage on jewelry AND using Molag set, with Major Brutality you have 4261 weapon damage. This is not the gear you claimed to be using, considering you mentioned regen/reduction jewelry, etc.

1580ish Stamina Regen with tri pot and 84 points in Mooncalf as a Redguard. That said you have 16k health and would be required to move stat points into health, no thanks. Using stat food your Stam Regen drops to 985.

Regarding the playstyle, I find it to be a gimmick build revolving around Rune Cage. While this ability is fun and a guaranteed kill on someone without stamina, it's also a death trap. Trying to find the sweetspot on people is going to likely get you killed more often than not. I say this because in IC, where everyone is playing like a kicked over anthill and everyone is being attacked by everyone and they are all CC immune or chugging pots. Good luck cherrypicking someone with no stam and not dying while trying to do such. It's fun though, no doubt.

Flying Blade feels really weak. I have used it quite a bit, that and Rapid Strikes. Needing to buff with Crit Surge is redundant just to ensure your opener has MB buff not to mention the lackluster healing type (a % of a crit otherwise no heal). The lack of healing on this build though kind of blows. There is no way to get out of slows either. You would be better off using bar 2 as a 2h bar with Rally, Execute and Crit Rush and perhaps putting Rapid Strikes on bar 1 in place of Whirlwind. Let's be honest, if you are going to use Rune Cage and DW, you may as well have RS

Even with a build like this I can't really stand behind Bound Arm. While if I were to use BA, this IS the build I would use it with, as it does not work with 2h very well at all. Even still, the only major gains I see in damage are on Flying Blade (about 200 extra damage, yay...), you gain a paltry amount of damage on RS (less than 100 m,ore on the final).

Thundering Presence really sucks. Having to spam this every 4 seconds blows through Stamina badly. Even with your racials, drinks, CP, you are still lacking Stamina for other things. The upkeep on this thing is just not worth it, use Boundless instead. Your Speed lasts longer and you don't need to worry about a window for ceiling increase.

Also this playstyle in general feels very clunky. I think it's the feel for FB. 2h is just a smooth *** that flows just right with the current pace of combat. There are also other areas of weakness I don't feel like getting into regarding utility. The reason I even bother to mention is that on a good 2h build you can swap stuff out pretty regularly without gutting the build. This build on the other hand you can't really do that with. Even with the changes I mentioned above, moving beyond that will really do some major hurt to the build and the synergies it has.

The stats are little different than other classes. If this game were about stats your statement would carry weight. Unfortunately skills and synergies far outweigh them. This is where the Sorc falls short. All 3 of the other classes have the ability to mix match and still have little penalty despite their choice of Magicka/Stamina (outside of Temp heals). Not a Sorc though. Unless we play into this new skill bloat game not only do our stats suffer but we remain a class neutral weapon spec.

exiledtyrant

Xael wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I don't see where all the bound armaments hate is coming from. Sorcerers now have the highest potential weapon damage and stamina in the game. The stamina buff alone was going to to edge us ahead of templar's weapon damage passive after a few hundred CP ( which some people are reaching now.) Now we get even more.

You are only hurting yourself at this point by not slotting bound armor for either spec. Since IC combined PVE and PVP together ( something I am against to begin with) I can see how people feel they lack the skills needed. I personally use very different skills for PVE and PVP. Outside of IC however this is not a problem. Inside IC I would suggest grouping to cover for you PVE weaknesses in your PVP spec. 8 slots is still plenty of room for a damage bar and a utility bar.

My DW wield bar is going to be:
Bar 1

Flying Blade
Whirling Blades ( another 20% regen to go with my daedric and redguard for 49%)
Surge
Thundering Presence
Bound Armaments
Flawless Dawnbreaker

Bar 2

Rune Cage
Rapid strikes ( 25% damage under rune cage)
Vigor
Dark deal
Bound Armaments
Soul Assault ( 40k damage that doesn't break rune cage)


I could swap my bar two dual wield with a two handed and go wrecking blow instead of rapid and rally instead of dark deal.

I can easily hit 2200+ stamina regen with only 3 jewelry regen enchants. Spec for cost and all of my skills are under my stamina regen meaning my stam bar doesn't even move with skill usage. Weapon damage is hitting well into the 4k+ range. I also gained about 5k extra stamina compared to live which translates to roughly 500 more weapon damage toward skill scaling. These are good things.


Thematically I would like a stamina based class attack. Dark deal is becoming obsolete with our ability to regain so much stamina as is. It may need another rework. Credit should be given where it's due however. The stats gained this patch are near perfect if not a little over tuned.

With the PTS gear and stacking Weapon Damage on jewelry AND using Molag set, with Major Brutality you have 4261 weapon damage. This is not the gear you claimed to be using, considering you mentioned regen/reduction jewelry, etc.

1580ish Stamina Regen with tri pot and 84 points in Mooncalf as a Redguard. That said you have 16k health and would be required to move stat points into health, no thanks. Using stat food your Stam Regen drops to 985.

Regarding the playstyle, I find it to be a gimmick build revolving around Rune Cage. While this ability is fun and a guaranteed kill on someone without stamina, it's also a death trap. Trying to find the sweetspot on people is going to likely get you killed more often than not. I say this because in IC, where everyone is playing like a kicked over anthill and everyone is being attacked by everyone and they are all CC immune or chugging pots. Good luck cherrypicking someone with no stam and not dying while trying to do such. It's fun though, no doubt.

Flying Blade feels really weak. I have used it quite a bit, that and Rapid Strikes. Needing to buff with Crit Surge is redundant just to ensure your opener has MB buff not to mention the lackluster healing type (a % of a crit otherwise no heal). The lack of healing on this build though kind of blows. There is no way to get out of slows either. You would be better off using bar 2 as a 2h bar with Rally, Execute and Crit Rush and perhaps putting Rapid Strikes on bar 1 in place of Whirlwind. Let's be honest, if you are going to use Rune Cage and DW, you may as well have RS

Even with a build like this I can't really stand behind Bound Arm. While if I were to use BA, this IS the build I would use it with, as it does not work with 2h very well at all. Even still, the only major gains I see in damage are on Flying Blade (about 200 extra damage, yay...), you gain a paltry amount of damage on RS (less than 100 m,ore on the final).

Thundering Presence really sucks. Having to spam this every 4 seconds blows through Stamina badly. Even with your racials, drinks, CP, you are still lacking Stamina for other things. The upkeep on this thing is just not worth it, use Boundless instead. Your Speed lasts longer and you don't need to worry about a window for ceiling increase.

Also this playstyle in general feels very clunky. I think it's the feel for FB. 2h is just a smooth *** that flows just right with the current pace of combat. There are also other areas of weakness I don't feel like getting into regarding utility. The reason I even bother to mention is that on a good 2h build you can swap stuff out pretty regularly without gutting the build. This build on the other hand you can't really do that with. Even with the changes I mentioned above, moving beyond that will really do some major hurt to the build and the synergies it has.

The stats are little different than other classes. If this game were about stats your statement would carry weight. Unfortunately skills and synergies far outweigh them. This is where the Sorc falls short. All 3 of the other classes have the ability to mix match and still have little penalty despite their choice of Magicka/Stamina (outside of Temp heals). Not a Sorc though. Unless we play into this new skill bloat game not only do our stats suffer but we remain a class neutral weapon spec.

That's not true at all for the stats. 5 sheer venom + 3 agility set + 2 molag + warrior mundus + brutatility + flawless + 3 sorc skills is almost 4500 weapon power. 3 regen from the agility set, 20% from daedric, 9% from redguard, 25% from CP, and 20% from whirling blades ( don't need tripots for perma endurance) is almost 2300 stam regen. I didn't even build in to it. If I went with actual regen gear and mundus it would be much higher. I didn't use drinks I use food so my stamina is at 33k. and I am 20 health 44 stam which means I am 23k health without endurance weapons and almost 25k with endurance weapons on. None of your assumed stats read off right. I am considering cost reduction over regen as my stamina skills cost between 1300-1900 per cast. With ring enchants they might as well be free. I would go down to maybe 1700 regen but have skills that only cost like 900-1200 stam.

I also use daggers for 45% cri but my weapon damage could be higher with swords. Honestly I am considering dropping my weapon damage down to 4k and going dual maces. Depending on what set comes out on top I can manage 50% crit with maces and use shadow or 56% ish crit with maces and use thief.

The build also doesn't revolve around rune cage. Rune cage is just a nice option for when someone is caught out. Being able to do 40k damage on soul assault and then repeated 7k raid strikes damage on an unbreakable mezz is useful. It helps with the PVE as well.


That's where I'll end. Honestly not everyone is going to be pleased. I found something that works for me. If people want to be salty about my good time and seriously try to down play the raw stats bound armaments gives. By all means.






Various shots of stats on PTS. Take into account I didn't use the 208 weapon damage enchant for my weapons nor did I slot any weapon damage for jewelry so it could be well over 5k wep damage. I personally think critical strike and penetration is going to win out over stacking weapon damage to stupid high levels. I also didn't use endurance weapons because there no double of them so the health is actually higher.

Xael

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Xael wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

I don't see where all the bound armaments hate is coming from. Sorcerers now have the highest potential weapon damage and stamina in the game. The stamina buff alone was going to to edge us ahead of templar's weapon damage passive after a few hundred CP ( which some people are reaching now.) Now we get even more.

You are only hurting yourself at this point by not slotting bound armor for either spec. Since IC combined PVE and PVP together ( something I am against to begin with) I can see how people feel they lack the skills needed. I personally use very different skills for PVE and PVP. Outside of IC however this is not a problem. Inside IC I would suggest grouping to cover for you PVE weaknesses in your PVP spec. 8 slots is still plenty of room for a damage bar and a utility bar.

My DW wield bar is going to be:
Bar 1

Flying Blade
Whirling Blades ( another 20% regen to go with my daedric and redguard for 49%)
Surge
Thundering Presence
Bound Armaments
Flawless Dawnbreaker

Bar 2

Rune Cage
Rapid strikes ( 25% damage under rune cage)
Vigor
Dark deal
Bound Armaments
Soul Assault ( 40k damage that doesn't break rune cage)


I could swap my bar two dual wield with a two handed and go wrecking blow instead of rapid and rally instead of dark deal.

I can easily hit 2200+ stamina regen with only 3 jewelry regen enchants. Spec for cost and all of my skills are under my stamina regen meaning my stam bar doesn't even move with skill usage. Weapon damage is hitting well into the 4k+ range. I also gained about 5k extra stamina compared to live which translates to roughly 500 more weapon damage toward skill scaling. These are good things.


Thematically I would like a stamina based class attack. Dark deal is becoming obsolete with our ability to regain so much stamina as is. It may need another rework. Credit should be given where it's due however. The stats gained this patch are near perfect if not a little over tuned.

With the PTS gear and stacking Weapon Damage on jewelry AND using Molag set, with Major Brutality you have 4261 weapon damage. This is not the gear you claimed to be using, considering you mentioned regen/reduction jewelry, etc.

1580ish Stamina Regen with tri pot and 84 points in Mooncalf as a Redguard. That said you have 16k health and would be required to move stat points into health, no thanks. Using stat food your Stam Regen drops to 985.

Regarding the playstyle, I find it to be a gimmick build revolving around Rune Cage. While this ability is fun and a guaranteed kill on someone without stamina, it's also a death trap. Trying to find the sweetspot on people is going to likely get you killed more often than not. I say this because in IC, where everyone is playing like a kicked over anthill and everyone is being attacked by everyone and they are all CC immune or chugging pots. Good luck cherrypicking someone with no stam and not dying while trying to do such. It's fun though, no doubt.

Flying Blade feels really weak. I have used it quite a bit, that and Rapid Strikes. Needing to buff with Crit Surge is redundant just to ensure your opener has MB buff not to mention the lackluster healing type (a % of a crit otherwise no heal). The lack of healing on this build though kind of blows. There is no way to get out of slows either. You would be better off using bar 2 as a 2h bar with Rally, Execute and Crit Rush and perhaps putting Rapid Strikes on bar 1 in place of Whirlwind. Let's be honest, if you are going to use Rune Cage and DW, you may as well have RS

Even with a build like this I can't really stand behind Bound Arm. While if I were to use BA, this IS the build I would use it with, as it does not work with 2h very well at all. Even still, the only major gains I see in damage are on Flying Blade (about 200 extra damage, yay...), you gain a paltry amount of damage on RS (less than 100 m,ore on the final).

Thundering Presence really sucks. Having to spam this every 4 seconds blows through Stamina badly. Even with your racials, drinks, CP, you are still lacking Stamina for other things. The upkeep on this thing is just not worth it, use Boundless instead. Your Speed lasts longer and you don't need to worry about a window for ceiling increase.

Also this playstyle in general feels very clunky. I think it's the feel for FB. 2h is just a smooth *** that flows just right with the current pace of combat. There are also other areas of weakness I don't feel like getting into regarding utility. The reason I even bother to mention is that on a good 2h build you can swap stuff out pretty regularly without gutting the build. This build on the other hand you can't really do that with. Even with the changes I mentioned above, moving beyond that will really do some major hurt to the build and the synergies it has.

The stats are little different than other classes. If this game were about stats your statement would carry weight. Unfortunately skills and synergies far outweigh them. This is where the Sorc falls short. All 3 of the other classes have the ability to mix match and still have little penalty despite their choice of Magicka/Stamina (outside of Temp heals). Not a Sorc though. Unless we play into this new skill bloat game not only do our stats suffer but we remain a class neutral weapon spec.

That's not true at all for the stats. 5 sheer venom + 3 agility set + 2 molag + warrior mundus + brutatility + flawless + 3 sorc skills is almost 4500 weapon power. 3 regen from the agility set, 20% from daedric, 9% from redguard, 25% from CP, and 20% from whirling blades ( don't need tripots for perma endurance) is almost 2300 stam regen. I didn't even build in to it. If I went with actual regen gear and mundus it would be much higher. I didn't use drinks I use food so my stamina is at 33k. and I am 20 health 44 stam which means I am 23k health without endurance weapons and almost 25k with endurance weapons on. None of your assumed stats read off right. I am considering cost reduction over regen as my stamina skills cost between 1300-1900 per cast. With ring enchants they might as well be free. I would go down to maybe 1700 regen but have skills that only cost like 900-1200 stam.

I also use daggers for 45% cri but my weapon damage could be higher with swords. Honestly I am considering dropping my weapon damage down to 4k and going dual maces. Depending on what set comes out on top I can manage 50% crit with maces and use shadow or 56% ish crit with maces and use thief.

The build also doesn't revolve around rune cage. Rune cage is just a nice option for when someone is caught out. Being able to do 40k damage on soul assault and then repeated 7k raid strikes damage on an unbreakable mezz is useful. It helps with the PVE as well.


That's where I'll end. Honestly not everyone is going to be pleased. I found something that works for me. If people want to be salty about my good time and seriously try to down play the raw stats bound armaments gives. By all means.

Actually it is true for the stats as I made the very character you were talking about down to the exact skills. 5 Sheer Venom, 3 Agil, 2 Molag, Weapon Damage enchants on jewelry, Flawless D, Major Brut, Redguard, 84 in Mooncalf...

In fact here are the screenshots:

Tri Pot / Major Brutality


Food/Major Brutality


Wanna tell me again about these "assumed" stats? I am not assuming as you can see it's right there in the screenshots of the exact template you posted. I even went further than you suggested with weapon damage, by adding it to the jewelry in which case you would not be over 4k. You can have almost 40 crit with 1s/1d or slap Evil Hunter on your bar and go Mace/Sword or Mace/Mace. As long as you maintain 4k, you will be fine.

Please don't tell me the build is not built around Rune Cage when your entire 2nd bar is set up around it: Rune Cage, Rapid Strikes, Soul Assault. You even made a point to address using these skills as to not breaking Rune Cage. While I am sure your first bar is a style unto itself, I should have been more specific and just said your "second bar" and not "build."

Also (not saying you do, however...) if you think you are going to just get rapid strikes off all the time you are mistaken. The damage from RS is low and takes several seconds to get the full damage. People don't stand still and even if you get lucky enough to trap someone in Cage your best bet is to laser them. People have friends and everyone is fighting like zergs. I have been having a lot of fun with RC and RS though. I kind of look at my RS kills as a big FU to people considering how weak it is and silly

That's good you found something that works for you, I congratulate you and wish you the best for your efforts (seriously). You said people are being salty about your good time, this is not true. You showed up out of the blue and slapped this build down on top of some blanket statements and pushed this upon those in this thread in a matter of fact way. Regarding Bound Armaments, aside from the regen lost, you would not harm yourself by losing the stamina. In the place of these 2 toggles you could have Shuffle, Evil/Camo Hunter, Radiant Magelight, Efficient Purge, and quite a few other nice skills that are much more beneficial than 2k Stamina.

Jar_Ek

It isn't that Bound Armour is not decent on paper: 8% max stamina, 11% heavy attack damage (the armour is so pitiful I think we can essentially ignore it), plus 2% weapon power, 20% health and stamina regeneration from passives It is more that it takes 2 slots, and acts solely as a buff effect - it has no active components... which makes it a passive that takes up 2 active slots.

Dracane

Jar_Ek wrote: »

It isn't that Bound Armour is not decent on paper: 8% max stamina, 11% heavy attack damage (the armour is so pitiful I think we can essentially ignore it), plus 2% weapon power, 20% health and stamina regeneration from passives It is more that it takes 2 slots, and acts solely as a buff effect - it has no active components... which makes it a passive that takes up 2 active slots.

Indeed. It is merely a passive buff that requires 2 valueable abilities slots. This makes the bonus provided by it tiny compared to what you have to sacrifise. And yes, this tiny armor bonus can as well be ignored, it does nothing.

Minor armor and spell resistance bonus are way too low. They should have the same value as minor fracture, a bit over 2200 resistance. Major Fracture and Major armor spells have the same value, 5120. But minor fracture is more than 2 times stronger than minor armor buffs. I think minor armor buffs should have the same value.
Then I wouldn't consider them completely useless.
Minor fracture used to be 960 when 1.6 came out, but they increased it to 2000+. So changes are possible

Jar_Ek

My preference would be to dump the armour component and replace it with minor protection - that is conjured armour to me.

Dracane

Jar_Ek wrote: »

My preference would be to dump the armour component and replace it with minor protection - that is conjured armour to me.

Well this is a brilliant idea indeed.
This would make it attractive. To be honest, I wish they would have made the following changes:

Instead of giving Empowered ward the minor healing buff, they should have given it to Bound Aegis. That's what a healer would want to use, Empowered ward is too risky in my opinion and it totally limits you to pve. You CAN't survive with empowered ward only in pvp. So this is not satisfying (play the way you want reference )

And Empowered ward should become a morph for stamina Sorcerers or Tank Sorcerer. Scaled of health maybe.

Jar_Ek

@Dracane Sold!

Dracane

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane Sold!

*-* yeeey. I'm rich

SturgeHammer

I was optimistic when ZOS pushed out this regen passive and the weapon damage passive, excited even to see some Stam Sorc buffs, but my Stam Sorc (and main pvp toon) is still losing so much in 1.7. These passives are ultimately asking me to do things I don't want to do to take full advantage of them. Mixing all of the losses and conditional buffs together with my mediocre playing skills is gonna result in a bad time. I will keep playing Stam Sorc because it's fun, but I really want ZOS to get things right before IC.

FENGRUSH

SturgeHammer wrote: »

I was optimistic when ZOS pushed out this regen passive and the weapon damage passive, excited even to see some Stam Sorc buffs, but my Stam Sorc (and main pvp toon) is still losing so much in 1.7. These passives are ultimately asking me to do things I don't want to do to take full advantage of them. Mixing all of the losses and conditional buffs together with my mediocre playing skills is gonna result in a bad time. I will keep playing Stam Sorc because it's fun, but I really want ZOS to get things right before IC.

This is accurate and well said.

They made changes to a class they dont understand.

twitch.tv/FENGRUSH @ZOS_BrianWheeler - since youve been seen lurking streams these days. Check out what this class is and what it needs.

1.7 is going to bring tougher stam management. Survival revolves around roll dodge, which is nerfed, which means survival is taking a huge hit. Streak is a good escape, but it doesnt avoid damage akin to hiding from NB which literally will disjoint unwanted projectiles. Or burst heals from templar, or blocking power/stam restore heal options DK have. Stam sorc is going to have to function differently to manage their resources and stay alive in the same fashion. Its going to demand more Stam, skill costs are higher too. Including rally, significantly - which is really one of your primary healing options.

These passives are out of place in all honesty, but I dont see them getting moved. I believe they will say hey - theres cool stuff there, your job to make it work. But youll be stuck with halfass bars.

If you wanted to make a PVE bar - you can take a step up here absolutely. But PVE requires no stam management whatsoever - because we have no stam skill to spam that would drain it to begin with.

Dyride

Yeah the roll dodge nerf hits non-NB Stamina builds very hard. It would be nice to have a magicka dump for mitigation. I loved @dracane's suggestion for the change to Empowered Ward and Bound Aegis.