Why not level-scale zones?

purplederpy

Before you angrily reply something like "the game is fine as it is shut up," just know this isn't a rage. It's a serious question!

I love this game. It's Elder Scrolls, my favorite franchise, and MMORPG, my favorite genre.

The main thing that drew me into the Elder Scrolls was 2 things:
1) First person fantasy woo!
2) Freedom to go anywhere and do anything

Of course we got #1, and we kinda have #2, just on a much smaller scale. But I've been thinking about it now. After having played through the zones of the Daggerfall Covenant... a few times... (I actually can't speak on the other 2 factions but I'd imagine it would be the same case), I've noticed that there really is no linear story tying these zones together. The only reason one goes from Glenumbra to Stormhaven to Rivenspire to Alik'r to Bangkorai in that order is the level pacing. (Side note, you can't walk through the door from Stormhaven to Rivenspire until you finish the main questline of Stormhaven, but you can waltz right on into Bangkorai because ~whatever~!)

I've played more than enough MMOs to know that that's usually just how things go, so I accepted it pretty easily. But the most common feedback I've heard out of people who don't really like the game is that they can't run all the way from High Rock to Black Marsh (I know a lot of the zones aren't done but you know what I mean. Running from zone to zone and still being able to find adventure without having to level up).

And at first I would say "Well it's an MMO that's just how things are." But after having played ESO, I noticed that there's really no reason to pace things. So why not scale players' levels to that of the zone and allow them the free roam! We already know ZOS can do it, like in Cyrodiil. And quest rewards too, like from the Main Story and Guild questlines!

Example:
Let's say, I make a new character on the Covenant. He wakes up in Glenumbra at level 3 (if you skip the intro of course). In southern Glenumbra, level 3 is viable. But at the northern end of the zone, the enemies are level 13-14. Me being adventurous, I run all the way from the Southern end of the zone to the North. Depending on the level of the enemies in that area, my level will scale up to be near theirs. My actual level will still be 3, but my stats will be raised high enough so that I can take on these enemies and have a chance at surviving, and still gain experience for killing them to go toward my next ~actual level~.
So now let's say I cross over to Stormhaven, where monsters on the western side of the zone start at level 17. Once again, my stats will scale up to level 17 so I can fight and do quests near them, but my actual level is still 3. The story isn't ruined because the zone's stories don't lead into one another. The only thing that would have to be done is removing the re-occurring characters from the future zones (The Daggers, Lady Laurent, etc) until their quest in the previous zones are completed. That might be easier than re-recording dialogue.

As for going backwards, (being scaled down instead of up), I'm sure some people will debate that. I know plenty of people who like to 1-shot everything. But let's say a few months from now, you're VR16 and your friend picks up the game and makes their first character. You want to play with them, but you don't want to make a new character. But if you take your high level character, you'll just 1-shot everything for them, probably ruining their fun experience, meanwhile you're getting no XP toward your next Champion Point, and no loot you can use. Buuuuut if your level was scaled down to match that of the zone you're in, you'll both be able to play together while not ruining the experience. You'll gain XP from killing enemies, and if there are any quests you didn't complete beforehand, you'll be able to do them now and get stuff that is your level. And if you want to run all the way to Bangkorai, you totally can. Free roam!

The doozy, however, would be the other factions' zones. Personally, I'm not a fan of the whole Cadwell's Gold and Silver; you must complete faction A to go to faction B. The way the game is now, I get why it is this way. But if level-scaling was implemented, you wouldn't need to wait until max level, and you wouldn't need to complete one before the other. I could walk up to, let's say the Prophet because he's instantly accessible from the get-go, and he'll give the whole "You fell on these shores but what if you fell somewhere else?" speech. I pick either faction that I want to do, and it takes me there. And if I want, I can go right back to the Prophet (in my faction's territory), and ask him to take me to the other faction's zone. I could have quests from both factions simultaneously. And lastly, for the main storyline, if I'm from the Covenant, but I ding level 15 while in The Reach, the Prophet will call for me in my factions' Harborage, and the Main Story would be completed in my factions' territory like normal.

It sounds really complicated and convoluted on paper, but it isn't! It's just that I wanted to provide as much detail as I could on-paper. Err-, forum.

Feedback? Questions? Comments? Concerns? Insults? Please leave them down below. I'd like a real discussion please, not an angry rant telling me I'm dumb for wanting things to be different.

NewBlacksmurf

They moved away from this in prior TES series so this game is inline with that as far as scaled zones.
The other thing is Bethesda made the TES games while ZOS made TESO

firstdecan

It's a fundamentally good idea. Based on your post I'm going to assume you haven't done much in the Cadwell's silver \ gold zones. Since each zone in silver \ gold is all the same level and there's not *that* much difference between the VR levels, you do have more of a feeling of freedom \ exploration once you hit the VR ranks. The down side is that it's in alliances you didn't want to play, and most players want a break from questing after going through 6+ zones of content to get to VR rank.

The issue you point out about downscaling (and playing with friends) has been coming up as an issue since PC launch. ZoS has been pretty set against downscaling, I'm really not sure why.

What I wish they would do is allow the option to (re)play zones at VR10 (or even VR12) once you've "completed" them. It could be nice to have the option of doing that before you complete them, and if they include upscaling it would solve the problem of not being able to play PvE content with friends.

Robo_Hobo

There actually is linear story between the zones. The plots are separate but the status-changers take into account things from the previous zones storylines. They can be done in any order of course, but thats how all quests, even within the same zone, with few exceptions are, the references to prior quests are removed and things dont make much sense. You can talk to Darien gautier in rivenspire for the first time and he'll act like he knows you, but then afterwards meet him in glenumbra and he'll act like hes never seen you before.

Regardless, that doesnt change anything about your suggestion, since level scaling wouldnt make the above case any different. Well, level scaling would encourage doing quests in the wrong order, but those whom would skip ahead to do so probably arent interested in storyline anyway.

Im indifferent personally, I kinda like the progression.

Kuroinu

I have moved my post to a separate thread because I would like it to be discussed further and in the appropriate forum section, which you can visit here.

The post below by whiteshadow711jppreub18_I contains a partially edited version of my post, lol.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

As I was reading over your post, you made me realise something interesting that may be an issue later on down the road for this game and its story.

As an example, whenever we are able to go from zone-to-zone from say Bangkorai all the way to Eastmarch; what does that mean for the Cadwell Story? Would you just be locked out from a zone at some point? But even if you do finish all Faction quests and it sort of makes sense to run between zones freely, it still doesn't feel quite right because of how the story is given to you by Cadwell about why you are visiting the other Factions not to mention Cyrodiil being the constant war zone. Going from High Rock territory to Skyrim, to Cyrodiil and then Blackmarsh for me feels awkward and out of place in a way because of the current Story and how all Factions are separated after Coldharbour.

I'm not sure some are going to understand what I'm saying but in order for this to make sense to me. Instead of going from your home Faction areas to Coldharbour then off to another Faction and then the final Faction we would really need to begin with our home Faction then visit another Faction and then the final Faction and then onto Coldharbour.

Just to make this more clear I'll list it in steps.

Current story set up:

1. Home Faction
2. Coldharbour
3. Faction 1
4. Faction 2

However, I'd find this a more sensible way to construct the story:

1. Home Faction
2. Faction 1
3. Faction 2
4. Coldharbour

Of course some parts of the story would have to be altered slightly and the entire zone levels for Faction 1, Faction 2 and Coldharbour would have to be shifted around. I'm not sure if anyone else actually sees this or feels this way but I feel something would be slightly off if we do continue adding zones and not making changes to the order of the story. It's unlikely to change but who knows!

Yeah, I always thought, in the beginning anyway, that after you went to the Next Alliance, that after you finish it you have to face Molag Bal a 2nd and 3rd time and he gets increasingly harder (since it's VR levels) and would make comments like "We have been here before but this time I have grown in Power.." and after the 3rd time he would say "You think you have beaten me...you are wrong I have other plans.." foreshadowing the Imperial CIty DLC/patch...

So when I found out that it was not gonna happen I was kinda upset....

Agobi

Excuse my french..but level scaling sukks sooo much

One way,it removes the fear factor,since that beast of a crab that used to be able to tear you to pieces is now your level and not a threat at all..

And the other way it removes any sense of progression,since with creatures scaling up with you you never actually get any "stronger"

My 2 pax; no,never ever!




Ever!1

gamsir

OP I'm with you!

KiraTsukasa

How do you level scale entire areas in a public MMO?

A level 3 character gets to what's supposed to be a level 30+ area, suddenly all the monsters are level 3 and all the level 30+ players are screwed out of everything?

A V14 character goes to a level 3 area and suddenly all monsters are V14, preventing anyone from playing the game?

Level scaling works in the main series games, such as Skyrim, because it doesn't effect any other player, only you.

Gidorick

I've discussed ways to accomplish this with battle leveling. I removed the part about battle leveling up because it seemed to be unpopular.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/176972/add-the-option-to-scale-characters-down-to-older-zones-please-d/p1

Used this idea in a concept for changing how Cadwells works

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/185967/cadwell-s-redux-concept-to-fix-silver-gold-freetamriel/p1

#freetamriel

JD2013

No thanks. I would prefer a challenge much more than things scaling to you.

Fun fact, level scaling only really started to be a thing in ES games from Oblivion onwards. I prefer wandering into areas where monsters may be higher level than I am, and there's a sense of slight danger. Scaling in Skyrim was far too easy even on the hardest difficulty. Killing a dragon at low level? Pfft.

#Tamrielistoofree

Akavir_Sentinel

purplederpy wrote: »

The story isn't ruined because the zone's stories don't lead into one another.

Actually, yes, they do. Each and every zone's storyline quests lead you to the next zone. The Fighter's Guild and Mage's guild quests also lead you to the next zone. Same goes for every storyline quest in the Cadwell's Silver and Gold zones.

Iluvrien

Why not just do away with specific level ranges for zone?

Why not have monsters/challenges of different levels within the same zone?

If we take the major settlements and well-traveled roads as being comparatively safe then we can have lower level creatures there (apart from possibly the occasional event-driven incursion perhaps). Further away from these places you get higher and higher level creatures until, in the deepest darkest recesses of some zones, you get end-game level challenges/creatures.

This means that there would always be reasons to return to previously explored zones, as you are unlikely to have explored them completely, and we also won't have this contrived rubbish of zones with specific ranges that then become useless (except for the Undaunted cities and Craglorn) after a player has out-leveled them.

Callous2208

I would have to see it implemented in a way I've not seen in any mmo to date to like it. As an example GW2 scales you down in zones so questing with lower level friends is always an option. The downside however is you spend all game doing 1 dmg in every zone like a fresh level one with no gear. There is never any challenge, progression, or meaning. It's like the entire game is a tutorial.

aidenmoore

I prefer to be scaled down caused for some reason I level up too quick and out leveled my questing area.

Sausage

It would take too long to give you good answer, I think ESO is fine as its, they have made their design choices and we gotta live with that.

waterfairy

purplederpy wrote: »

My actual level will still be 3, but my stats will be raised high enough so that I can take on these enemies and have a chance at surviving, and still gain experience for killing them to go toward my next ~actual level~.

ha no. If you want to explore like this then it should be a dangerous road not a cake walk that caters to you.
You can go to areas beyond you if you build your character strong...last night I met my friend in an area with enemies 12 levels above me and I was holding my own just fine as my guy was tough enough. I would gladly do dungeons with him if not for that stupid miss chance when grouping but that's an issue to rant about in another topic.

Vizier

One of the things I miss about TES games is the overall sense of progression. When the world is "scaled" there is really no progression. There is no sense of going from weak and needing to watch your step to strong and being that guy that laughs at death and wades through a sea of blood. Then having it all topped off with the accomplishments punctuated by defeating the God's themselves. When a game makes you "feel" like you are "the one" that's great thing. Seems like more and more TES has adopted the practice of smoothing the road out from beginning to end. Their is no climb. There is no danger in deviating from the path one way as opposed to another.

Point being I see no good from being able to start at level 3 and run across the map to other areas or zones and being strong enough to do whatever I like. Sounds boring.

That said their is something wrong from an immersive point of view in having "zones" of various levels, especially when they are broken up by national regions. This makes the final zones the strongest and therefor there is no reason they shouldn't just rule everything. I'd much rather see each zone have something for everyone if they can get there but defined. If a low level can make it from one city to the next that's great. Once there he can take missions killing rats or whatever but he should be in trouble if he makes a wrong turn or end up in the wrong part of town etc. In other words every place should have something to offer for all levels because kingdoms are complex organisms with problems both small and large. It's a shortcut and lazy design to make levels regional and or to battle level players according to region. LAZY! ... patronizing to us players IMO.

TheShadowScout

Vigarr wrote: »

ha no. If you want to explore like this then it should be a dangerous road not a cake walk that caters to you.

^This!^

If they had made the whole game level-less from the beginning, that would have been a different matter, but since they did use the good old level system... deal with it.

MasterFUNG_ESO

I would much rather have de-lvling so going back into lower lvl zones to do things you missed would actually be fun and or grouping up with a friend who is just starting out.

Volkodav

[/quote]
It's a fundamentally good idea. Based on your post I'm going to assume you haven't done much in the Cadwell's silver \ gold zones. Since each zone in silver \ gold is all the same level and there's not *that* much difference between the VR levels, you do have more of a feeling of freedom \ exploration once you hit the VR ranks. The down side is that it's in alliances you didn't want to play, and most players want a break from questing after going through 6+ zones of content to get to VR rank.

The issue you point out about downscaling (and playing with friends) has been coming up as an issue since PC launch. ZoS has been pretty set against downscaling, I'm really not sure why.

What I wish they would do is allow the option to (re)play zones at VR10 (or even VR12) once you've "completed" them. It could be nice to have the option of doing that before you complete them, and if they include upscaling it would solve the problem of not being able to play PvE content with friends.[/quote]


Well,we sorta have freedom of exploration,but not really.If I am in EP,I cant just go to Auridon once I hit v1.I dont have that choice.I'd love to try those quests at level 50. Cadwell only gives you DC.I wonder why they wont let you go to AD a rea? It shows on my map that I should be able to go there but when I try to it tells me that my level isnt high enough. I reach v1 easily in EP,but I prefer playing in AD.When I get thrown into Glenumbra,which I hate,well,it ceases to be fun for me. Dont know why,but I dont like playing there. It's just me.XD

UrQuan

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

How do you level scale entire areas in a public MMO?

A level 3 character gets to what's supposed to be a level 30+ area, suddenly all the monsters are level 3 and all the level 30+ players are screwed out of everything?

A V14 character goes to a level 3 area and suddenly all monsters are V14, preventing anyone from playing the game?

Level scaling works in the main series games, such as Skyrim, because it doesn't effect any other player, only you.

It could definitely be done. Here's how:

Say for argument's sake a zone is set to level 25, and all the enemies there are level 25. Now say that there's a level 10 player running around in the zone, and he starts fighting a level 25 mob. When the level 25 mob hits the level 10 player with an attack, a check is performed to determine the level of the target, and the base damage inflicted on the target (prior to any damage mitigation or other modifiers) is scaled as if the attack had come from a mob of the same level as the target. So the level 25 mob hits the level 10 player as if it was a level 10 mob.

Conversely, when the level 10 player attacks the level 25 mob, the same check is performed, and the damage is scaled up to what it would be if the level 10 player was a level 25 (because so much of the damage potential of a player depends on exactly how the stats have been done, this would probably have to be done via applying a simple modifier based on the number of levels in difference rather than any more complex calculation - say increasing or decreasing by a factor of 10% per level difference, to just throw out an example for illustrative purposes).

If you wanted to, you could even set it up in such a way that scaling happens, but lower levels will still find it more challenging, while higher levels will still find it easier. There are a couple of ways to do this.

One is to set a level range within which no scaling will happen - say 5 levels on either side of the level the zone is set to. So going back to our example of a level 25 zone, if you're a level 20-30 player you won't experience any scaling. At level 20 you'll have a harder time because you'll be 5 levels lower than the mobs, and at level 30 you'll have an easier time because you'll be 5 levels higher than the mobs. If we go back to our level 10 player example, though, he'll experience scaling, but only enough scaling to make him experience the zone as if he was level 20. So when he attacks a level 25 mob, he'll have his damage scaled to be as if he was level 20. When a mob hits him, the mob's damage will be scaled down to be as if the mob was level 15 (thus maintaining a 5 level difference between the mob and the level 10 player).

Another way is to have the scaling based on applying a modifier to the difference in levels between the player and the mobs. So going back to our example of a level 10 player fighting level 25 mobs, there's a 15 level difference between them. Maybe there's a 2:1 modifier applied, so that for every 2 levels of difference, 1 level of scaling is applied. So the level 25 mob hits the level 10 player as if it was a level 17 mob (15 levels of difference divided by 2 is 7.5 levels of scaling, rounded to 8, so the level 25 mob's outgoing damage is scaled down to level 17), while the level 10 player hits the level 25 mob as if he was a level 18 player.

You could even combine those methods if you wanted.

Of course, scaling like this would require coding changes in the combat engine, so it's unlikely to be a quick easy thing that ZOS could implement. Maybe it's feasible, maybe it isn't. Without knowing more about the effort involved and the likelihood of such changes introducing serious bugs, it's impossible to say.