Congrats ZOS you've added nothing and effectively killed your game.

Ishammael

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

I knew great players of all classes during 1.5, resource management correlated with skill, TTK was good for small scale pvp, lag was the biggest issue really, and if DK had some slight tweaks, it could have been amazing.

This is all they needed to do. The only real tweak that DK needed was a slight nerf to ulty generation -- nothing major. And it would have been fine.

k2blader

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Something that still boggles me are people tricking themselves into thinking ZOS listens to feedback.

Instead their excuse is "IMPERIAL CITY LOOK IMPERIAL CITY"

I could be wrong, but exactly as I thought, they are hyping it to get as much bang for their buck out of the idiots that buy it.

Wow some new scenery to pvp in, except now with 5000 PVE mobs in the way!

I just quoted some of your post that I especially agree with. I think Zeni does listen to feedback but mainly when it comes from "special" people-- e.g. GMs of very large/successful guilds and noted gamers with followings.

There were a lot of PvP people sort of fan-boying IC before the PTS was even up. The hype has kinda died down since. I'd much rather have long-requested bugs/exploits fixed (like, really fixed) and class balance adjusted than IC. Then after that's shored up they could think on "additional content."

Not that what I think matters (see above), but just sayin'.

Jules

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

...Did you really just say Rip stamina builds?

Do you even biting jabs? Do you even surprise attack? DO YOU EVEN WRECKING BLOW?! DO YOU EVEN 16% INCREASED BOW DAMAGE?!

LOL

Jules

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

nightblades do not rule cryodiil. nightblades are now and have allways been the weakest class in eso. they die easy and thier damage output is lower then all the other classes.
the 2 dominating classes in cryodiil are the dragonight and the sorcerer. and that has allways been that way even since early beta.

Are we playing the same game?!!?!

Ezareth

TheBull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Yeah they really need to just significantly reduce the AP gain rates for all involved in anything greater than a 4 man group.

Starting at 5 it should just be reduced by a multiplicative percentage of like 20% per player.

If you get 100 AP in a 4 man group, 5 man should be 80, 6 man should be 64, 7 man 51, 8 man 41, 9 man 33 etc....

This allows Zergs or larger groups the opportunity to still make AP but it will now scale down with the ease at which that AP is earned.

Man, since you've been playing NB you've become much more reasonable.

Or maybe your Sorc-hate clouded your judgement of me

I've always tried to be as unbiased and reasonable as possible. Still I've seen a lot from the other side of the fence now and I've gained an appreciation for the frustration many players face when fighting many of the sorcs out there.

I still hate "Gank" NBs more than ever though which is why I almost never stealth and take special pleasure in butchering that sort of player. I've grown rather fond of "Trash-DK NB" moniker that Kerviz dubbed me.

k2blader wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

There is truth in the fact that ZOS overlooks the most glaring issue of performance/enjoyment in PvP - ball groups.

I will never understand how farming AP while doing absolutely nothing that involves any sort of skill gives some people a quick little high.

Edit: Before you zerglings come saying it does involve skill, please, explain why most of you want to play in this group in the first place, chances are because you simply just cant be effective by yourself.

Yeah all the Zerglings I've fought to date have been butchered as they strayed from the herd.

I don't think the game is class balance is all that bad right now with the exception of Hardened Ward, Dampen Magick and Healing Ward being OP and favoring sorcs right now.

Lol, you're joking right? Ugghh.. -_-

No if I'm joking I usually put some sort of emoticon or indication that what I've said is sarcasm.

Class balance isn't all that base when you fixed the few issues I pointed out. Sure, there are garbage builds that can't work when all else is equal *cough* stam-sorc *cough*....but every class has access to at least one powerful build that can hold their own against anyone. If they fixed the percentage scaling damage shield issue with the cyrodiil buff in 1.6 you'd see that.

Unfortunately in 2.1 I don't see class balance being as even.

k2blader

Ezareth wrote: »

No if I'm joking I usually put some sort of emoticon or indication that what I've said is sarcasm.

Class balance isn't all that base when you fixed the few issues I pointed out. Sure, there are garbage builds that can't work when all else is equal *cough* stam-sorc *cough*....but every class has access to at least one powerful build that can hold their own against anyone. If they fixed the percentage scaling damage shield issue with the cyrodiil buff in 1.6 you'd see that.

Unfortunately in 2.1 I don't see class balance being as even.

Yeah, I didn't think you were. I'd still argue that those abilities you mentioned aren't OP in themselves; it's that using them in conjunction with a certain CP setup makes that "build" OP.

Frankly I don't like the shield-stacking concept (let alone reality), but light armored magicka builds need something for protection. I wouldn't mind shields going away if something fun and viable replaced them.

FENGRUSH

Ezareth wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Yeah they really need to just significantly reduce the AP gain rates for all involved in anything greater than a 4 man group.

Starting at 5 it should just be reduced by a multiplicative percentage of like 20% per player.

If you get 100 AP in a 4 man group, 5 man should be 80, 6 man should be 64, 7 man 51, 8 man 41, 9 man 33 etc....

This allows Zergs or larger groups the opportunity to still make AP but it will now scale down with the ease at which that AP is earned.

Man, since you've been playing NB you've become much more reasonable.

Or maybe your Sorc-hate clouded your judgement of me

I've always tried to be as unbiased and reasonable as possible. Still I've seen a lot from the other side of the fence now and I've gained an appreciation for the frustration many players face when fighting many of the sorcs out there.

I still hate "Gank" NBs more than ever though which is why I almost never stealth and take special pleasure in butchering that sort of player. I've grown rather fond of "Trash-DK NB" moniker that Kerviz dubbed me.

k2blader wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

There is truth in the fact that ZOS overlooks the most glaring issue of performance/enjoyment in PvP - ball groups.

I will never understand how farming AP while doing absolutely nothing that involves any sort of skill gives some people a quick little high.

Edit: Before you zerglings come saying it does involve skill, please, explain why most of you want to play in this group in the first place, chances are because you simply just cant be effective by yourself.

Yeah all the Zerglings I've fought to date have been butchered as they strayed from the herd.

I don't think the game is class balance is all that bad right now with the exception of Hardened Ward, Dampen Magick and Healing Ward being OP and favoring sorcs right now.

Lol, you're joking right? Ugghh.. -_-

No if I'm joking I usually put some sort of emoticon or indication that what I've said is sarcasm.

Class balance isn't all that base when you fixed the few issues I pointed out. Sure, there are garbage builds that can't work when all else is equal *cough* stam-sorc *cough*....but every class has access to at least one powerful build that can hold their own against anyone. If they fixed the percentage scaling damage shield issue with the cyrodiil buff in 1.6 you'd see that.

Unfortunately in 2.1 I don't see class balance being as even.

Ezareth is calling out to The Lord FENGRUSH!!

Come and watch the stam sorc at work!

ShadoPanauin

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

ShadoPanauin wrote: »

Thank you for covering the universe in salt. We sure could use the extinction of slugs, snails etc.

Seriously though, none of the things you said were true other than the fact that questing is boring.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Class balance? Nope 1-2 classes dominating cyrodiil (NB and sorc).

Class balance is perfectly fine. It only seems imbalanced when the class's player is skilled.

There will also never be perfectly balanced classes.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Enhanced group play? Nope screwed small groups BECAUSE ZERGS FTW.

I don't know who you're playing with, but small group play is perfectly viable.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

More variety? RIP stamina builds unless you're a spin2win zergling.

Non-steel-tornado builds are still perfectly viable.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

You've effectively made numbers matter even more now that everyone can survive a 5 second conceal weapon and not be punished for it, grab a few pocket healers and shazam your a walking raid boss (except this one isnt killable).

It's right that people aren't being one shot.

Pocket healers are a perfectly valid tactic.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Congratulations ZOS, you've added nothing, and made what we already had worse.

Crown store? Mounts? Imperial City? I don't know what you're talking about.

Obviously I'm talking IC. Also if you think small group is viable without dynamic ulti and with this new damage nerf I challenge you to wipe a raid like what used to be possible with 4-8 people against 24

Actually stamina builds got the KO hammer with that dodge roll nerf, I didnt expect it to be that bad, but lets face it, they dont have instant heals or shields, they must facetank while doing damage, with damage being so low, they cant facetank with 4 dodge rolls max before having to stay out of it for a solid 6 seconds (Yes I said 6 seconds as that IS what it is from start of dodge roll to finish).

Never did I say pocket healers weren't a tactic but they dont consist much outside of zergs ahem your main style of play.

But I mean hey, if you wanna spam 3 buttons with 23 other people around you and feel like you genuinely are contributing largely and with skill then whatever floats your boat.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Naming and Shaming comments]

It is WAY too early to tell whether anything is viable or not.

Also, as to your statement that I play mostly with zergs, here's my usual response: who are you?

Ezareth

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Ezareth is calling out to The Lord FENGRUSH!!

Come and watch the stam sorc at work!

I said when all else is equal FENGRUSH. You and I both know you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back with your sorc. It's a testament to your skill that you can succeed with that build. I think most skilled players can make most builds successful because the skill factor in this game is far more understanding core mechanics than it is class balance.

k2blader wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

No if I'm joking I usually put some sort of emoticon or indication that what I've said is sarcasm.

Class balance isn't all that base when you fixed the few issues I pointed out. Sure, there are garbage builds that can't work when all else is equal *cough* stam-sorc *cough*....but every class has access to at least one powerful build that can hold their own against anyone. If they fixed the percentage scaling damage shield issue with the cyrodiil buff in 1.6 you'd see that.

Unfortunately in 2.1 I don't see class balance being as even.

Yeah, I didn't think you were. I'd still argue that those abilities you mentioned aren't OP in themselves; it's that using them in conjunction with a certain CP setup makes that "build" OP.

Frankly I don't like the shield-stacking concept (let alone reality), but light armored magicka builds need something for protection. I wouldn't mind shields going away if something fun and viable replaced them.

The abilities I mentioned *are* OP in that they benefit disproportionately from the Cyrodiil buff while nothing else does. It makes those abilities far more powerful than any other abilities in Cyrodiil right now. CPs make them even more OP but as it stands they're far too strong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Sorcs or damage shields by any stretch but I think there has to be a degree of balance. When a player can cast with impunity against another player beating on their shields without fear of harm then something is usually wrong or the other player is just bad.

TheElementalPlatypus

Ezareth wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Ezareth is calling out to The Lord FENGRUSH!!

Come and watch the stam sorc at work!

I said when all else is equal FENGRUSH. You and I both know you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back with your sorc. It's a testament to your skill that you can succeed with that build. I think most skilled players can make most builds successful because the skill factor in this game is far more understanding core mechanics than it is class balance.

k2blader wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

No if I'm joking I usually put some sort of emoticon or indication that what I've said is sarcasm.

Class balance isn't all that base when you fixed the few issues I pointed out. Sure, there are garbage builds that can't work when all else is equal *cough* stam-sorc *cough*....but every class has access to at least one powerful build that can hold their own against anyone. If they fixed the percentage scaling damage shield issue with the cyrodiil buff in 1.6 you'd see that.

Unfortunately in 2.1 I don't see class balance being as even.

Yeah, I didn't think you were. I'd still argue that those abilities you mentioned aren't OP in themselves; it's that using them in conjunction with a certain CP setup makes that "build" OP.

Frankly I don't like the shield-stacking concept (let alone reality), but light armored magicka builds need something for protection. I wouldn't mind shields going away if something fun and viable replaced them.

The abilities I mentioned *are* OP in that they benefit disproportionately from the Cyrodiil buff while nothing else does. It makes those abilities far more powerful than any other abilities in Cyrodiil right now. CPs make them even more OP but as it stands they're far too strong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Sorcs or damage shields by any stretch but I think there has to be a degree of balance. When a player can cast with impunity against another player beating on their shields without fear of harm then something is usually wrong or the other player is just bad.

\

I agree with you on the abilities being out of line that you mentioned. I think the underlying problem is the abilities (and all others for this matter) have no cost. Almost all sorcs run the same thing, with very little variation, and the only think that makes you slightly think about your magic, is streak. Shields and healing ward can be spammed indefinitely, which makes balancing them without making them too strong or too weak more difficult because you have to find a sweet spot of having something indefinitely spammable be strong, but not OP.

Resource management in 1.6 created so many problems which lead to other problems.... and others.... and others.

joshisanonymous

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Tons of post were made during 1.6 how dynamic ultimate actually led to small groups having a chance, and (correct me if I'm wrong) what the heck was wrong with dynamic ulti? I dont recall any major issues it caused... if anything it was a whole lot better.

Instead their excuse is "IMPERIAL CITY LOOK IMPERIAL CITY"

Did you even play before 1.6? Your forum profile seems to tell me know, yet you're saying things as if you know.

Ultimate regeneration was absolutely not acceptable before 1.6. Unlimited bat swarms? Unlimited banners? Negate magic deciding every large scale fight? Do you not realize that a solo vampire could at one point able to literally survive forever while walking through a zerg? That's not even close to an exaggeration.

The game simply wasn't as well balanced. Are you forgetting that magicka and light armor was basically the only competitive option? 1.6 also got rid of AoE caps, something essential to small group play, and everyone has been talking about the shorter TTK since that patch.

Half of what you're saying doesn't even make sense in light of the other things you're saying. You're complaining about Imperial City while simultaneously saying that ZoS is ignoring small group play. Do you not realize that IC is simply a persistent BG? It's absolutely designed for small group play, the thing you want, yet you're complaining about it.

Then you're talking about NB and Sorcs being the only two viable classes, while simultaneously saying that you can now easily survive the stun from Concealed Weapon, a NB skill? You're complaining about the longer TTK while somehow managing to argue that NB and Sorcs, classes that rely mostly on being able to kill quickly, are being favored? Anything that makes the TTK longer directly harms the viability of NBs and Sorcs because they're built around getting into a fight, bursting someone down quickly, then leaving as soon as possible before they're mowed down.

This thread reads a lot like a jeremiad with some willful ignorance/forgetfulness about what the game was actually like before 1.6. It's not perfect, but to say that nothing is improving and every change is leading to less balance is, frankly, stupid.

FENGRUSH

joshisanonymous wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Tons of post were made during 1.6 how dynamic ultimate actually led to small groups having a chance, and (correct me if I'm wrong) what the heck was wrong with dynamic ulti? I dont recall any major issues it caused... if anything it was a whole lot better.

Instead their excuse is "IMPERIAL CITY LOOK IMPERIAL CITY"

1.6 also got rid of AoE caps, something essential to small group play,

1.6 got rid of AOE caps? Nice joke.

Dynamic ult generation was better than static gen ult - unless you play in large groups.

ToRelax

joshisanonymous wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Tons of post were made during 1.6 how dynamic ultimate actually led to small groups having a chance, and (correct me if I'm wrong) what the heck was wrong with dynamic ulti? I dont recall any major issues it caused... if anything it was a whole lot better.

Instead their excuse is "IMPERIAL CITY LOOK IMPERIAL CITY"

Ultimate regeneration was absolutely not acceptable before 1.6. Unlimited bat swarms? Unlimited banners? Negate magic deciding every large scale fight? Do you not realize that a solo vampire could at one point able to literally survive forever while walking through a zerg? That's not even close to an exaggeration.

That's right, when some stupid zerg allowed us to generate enough ultimate, we could actually survive the fight!

The game simply wasn't as well balanced. Are you forgetting that magicka and light armor was basically the only competitive option? 1.6 also got rid of AoE caps, something essential to small group play, and everyone has been talking about the shorter TTK since that patch.

This is not true - stamina Templar was pretty good and DK and NB not too far behind. There was some balancing needed, but no 1.6.

Half of what you're saying doesn't even make sense in light of the other things you're saying. You're complaining about Imperial City while simultaneously saying that ZoS is ignoring small group play. Do you not realize that IC is simply a persistent BG? It's absolutely designed for small group play, the thing you want, yet you're complaining about it.

Do you not realize IC and most of the 2.1 changes a favouring zergs, again?

Then you're talking about NB and Sorcs being the only two viable classes, while simultaneously saying that you can now easily survive the stun from Concealed Weapon, a NB skill? You're complaining about the longer TTK while somehow managing to argue that NB and Sorcs, classes that rely mostly on being able to kill quickly, are being favored? Anything that makes the TTK longer directly harms the viability of NBs and Sorcs because they're built around getting into a fight, bursting someone down quickly, then leaving as soon as possible before they're mowed down.

Sorc and NB are better in open world than DK or Templar because they can escape easier, not because they are able to kill a good player.
Your last sentence is nonsense, too. If infinite resources persist, than this change is reduccing the viability of DK and Templar more than Sorc and NB, because the latter have it easier adding even more burst. With sustained damage you'll kill even less.

UltimaJoe777

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Class balance? Nope 1-2 classes dominating cyrodiil (NB and sorc).

This right here shows you have much to learn. ALL classes have advantage or disadvantage. Try taking on a Dragonknight Emperor sometime and see if that doesn't change your mind.

Ezareth

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Class balance? Nope 1-2 classes dominating cyrodiil (NB and sorc).

This right here shows you have much to learn. ALL classes have advantage or disadvantage. Try taking on a Dragonknight Emperor sometime and see if that doesn't change your mind.

I think DK Emps are actually the weakest Emps right now sadly. How the might have fallen ) =

Thelon

k2blader wrote: »

I just quoted some of your post that I especially agree with. I think Zeni does listen to feedback but mainly when it comes from "special" people-- e.g. GMs of very large/successful guilds and noted gamers with followings.

I'm not special.

Kupoking

OP is a troll or a severely mentally challenged person.

TheElementalPlatypus

ToRelax wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Tons of post were made during 1.6 how dynamic ultimate actually led to small groups having a chance, and (correct me if I'm wrong) what the heck was wrong with dynamic ulti? I dont recall any major issues it caused... if anything it was a whole lot better.

Instead their excuse is "IMPERIAL CITY LOOK IMPERIAL CITY"

Ultimate regeneration was absolutely not acceptable before 1.6. Unlimited bat swarms? Unlimited banners? Negate magic deciding every large scale fight? Do you not realize that a solo vampire could at one point able to literally survive forever while walking through a zerg? That's not even close to an exaggeration.

That's right, when some stupid zerg allowed us to generate enough ultimate, we could actually survive the fight!

The game simply wasn't as well balanced. Are you forgetting that magicka and light armor was basically the only competitive option? 1.6 also got rid of AoE caps, something essential to small group play, and everyone has been talking about the shorter TTK since that patch.

This is not true - stamina Templar was pretty good and DK and NB not too far behind. There was some balancing needed, but no 1.6.

Half of what you're saying doesn't even make sense in light of the other things you're saying. You're complaining about Imperial City while simultaneously saying that ZoS is ignoring small group play. Do you not realize that IC is simply a persistent BG? It's absolutely designed for small group play, the thing you want, yet you're complaining about it.

Do you not realize IC and most of the 2.1 changes a favouring zergs, again?

Then you're talking about NB and Sorcs being the only two viable classes, while simultaneously saying that you can now easily survive the stun from Concealed Weapon, a NB skill? You're complaining about the longer TTK while somehow managing to argue that NB and Sorcs, classes that rely mostly on being able to kill quickly, are being favored? Anything that makes the TTK longer directly harms the viability of NBs and Sorcs because they're built around getting into a fight, bursting someone down quickly, then leaving as soon as possible before they're mowed down.

Sorc and NB are better in open world than DK or Templar because they can escape easier, not because they are able to kill a good player.
Your last sentence is nonsense, too. If infinite resources persist, than this change is reduccing the viability of DK and Templar more than Sorc and NB, because the latter have it easier adding even more burst. With sustained damage you'll kill even less.

Claps as you kind sir, pointed out every bit of what was wrong with his post and said it better than I could have.

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Class balance? Nope 1-2 classes dominating cyrodiil (NB and sorc).

This right here shows you have much to learn. ALL classes have advantage or disadvantage. Try taking on a Dragonknight Emperor sometime and see if that doesn't change your mind.

I'm going to leave it as I'm guessing you have very little actual competitive pvp experience.

joshisanonymous wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Tons of post were made during 1.6 how dynamic ultimate actually led to small groups having a chance, and (correct me if I'm wrong) what the heck was wrong with dynamic ulti? I dont recall any major issues it caused... if anything it was a whole lot better.

Instead their excuse is "IMPERIAL CITY LOOK IMPERIAL CITY"

Did you even play before 1.6? Your forum profile seems to tell me know, yet you're saying things as if you know.

Ultimate regeneration was absolutely not acceptable before 1.6. Unlimited bat swarms? Unlimited banners? Negate magic deciding every large scale fight? Do you not realize that a solo vampire could at one point able to literally survive forever while walking through a zerg? That's not even close to an exaggeration.

The game simply wasn't as well balanced. Are you forgetting that magicka and light armor was basically the only competitive option? 1.6 also got rid of AoE caps, something essential to small group play, and everyone has been talking about the shorter TTK since that patch.

Half of what you're saying doesn't even make sense in light of the other things you're saying. You're complaining about Imperial City while simultaneously saying that ZoS is ignoring small group play. Do you not realize that IC is simply a persistent BG? It's absolutely designed for small group play, the thing you want, yet you're complaining about it.

Then you're talking about NB and Sorcs being the only two viable classes, while simultaneously saying that you can now easily survive the stun from Concealed Weapon, a NB skill? You're complaining about the longer TTK while somehow managing to argue that NB and Sorcs, classes that rely mostly on being able to kill quickly, are being favored? Anything that makes the TTK longer directly harms the viability of NBs and Sorcs because they're built around getting into a fight, bursting someone down quickly, then leaving as soon as possible before they're mowed down.

This thread reads a lot like a jeremiad with some willful ignorance/forgetfulness about what the game was actually like before 1.6. It's not perfect, but to say that nothing is improving and every change is leading to less balance is, frankly, stupid.

Actually you'd be surprised at the amount of people that agree... and wait... there is a common theme.... most of the top notch competitive players (MOST).... tend to agree on the fact it has been a lot of downhill since 1.5....

Also yes I played a tremendous amount before 1.6, and while I was still learning the game, I regret not cherishing that patch more than I did.

Also believe it or not, IC is actually (as stated above me) favoring zergs more and more. Any competent player who can take a look at game mechanics then and now, (assuming you are not mentally disturbed) can see the balance clearly leaning toward sorc and NB, and larger groups.

I believe if you had a competent understanding of game mechanics... then your rambling about NB and sorc, would in fact (again as stated above) be complete nonsense to you as it is to me.

SkylarkAU

Relentlessly reminiscing about the 'good times', crapping all over everything, and being aggressive to anyone who disagrees with you.. give it a rest mate.

#nerfqqtornado

Joy_Division

joshisanonymous wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Tons of post were made during 1.6 how dynamic ultimate actually led to small groups having a chance, and (correct me if I'm wrong) what the heck was wrong with dynamic ulti? I dont recall any major issues it caused... if anything it was a whole lot better.

Instead their excuse is "IMPERIAL CITY LOOK IMPERIAL CITY"

Did you even play before 1.6? Your forum profile seems to tell me know, yet you're saying things as if you know.

Ultimate regeneration was absolutely not acceptable before 1.6. Unlimited bat swarms? Unlimited banners? Negate magic deciding every large scale fight? Do you not realize that a solo vampire could at one point able to literally survive forever while walking through a zerg? That's not even close to an exaggeration.

The game simply wasn't as well balanced. Are you forgetting that magicka and light armor was basically the only competitive option? 1.6 also got rid of AoE caps, something essential to small group play, and everyone has been talking about the shorter TTK since that patch.

Half of what you're saying doesn't even make sense in light of the other things you're saying. You're complaining about Imperial City while simultaneously saying that ZoS is ignoring small group play. Do you not realize that IC is simply a persistent BG? It's absolutely designed for small group play, the thing you want, yet you're complaining about it.

Then you're talking about NB and Sorcs being the only two viable classes, while simultaneously saying that you can now easily survive the stun from Concealed Weapon, a NB skill? You're complaining about the longer TTK while somehow managing to argue that NB and Sorcs, classes that rely mostly on being able to kill quickly, are being favored? Anything that makes the TTK longer directly harms the viability of NBs and Sorcs because they're built around getting into a fight, bursting someone down quickly, then leaving as soon as possible before they're mowed down.

This thread reads a lot like a jeremiad with some willful ignorance/forgetfulness about what the game was actually like before 1.6. It's not perfect, but to say that nothing is improving and every change is leading to less balance is, frankly, stupid.

You asked if the OP played before 1.6.

I ask if you played after 1.3.

Lord_Hev

Those "unlimited bats/banner" ulti gain shenanigans, were one of the many ways a small group of players could actually zerg-bust. Why is it that after the nerf to ulti gain, the zerg has become ever more pervasive? Because now, unless the large group happen to be incredibly inept... "zerg-busting" is no longer a thing. It is virtually impossible for a small group to sustain and hold their ground against a zerg... which is why DKs and Templars hit the bottom, and Sorc and NB rose in power. 1.6 took away the ability for the 2 classes that synergize very well with a tank concept, to hold their ground against a group of players. Took away their ability to form a small cohesive group, to have the potential to force a cluster of people to SPREAD OUT.(from all the bats and banners and novas)

What are they left with now? That is why Sorc and NB suddenly become "FOTM." Sorcs and NBs favor that of maneuverability and escape. You have to escape now... because you can no longer zerg-bust. You are helpess against the train. Thus, you must escape.


Zerg or die.



WTB 1.5

emma666

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Those "unlimited bats/banner" ulti gain shenanigans, were one of the many ways a small group of players could actually zerg-bust. Why is it that after the nerf to ulti gain, the zerg has become ever more pervasive? Because now, unless the large group happen to be incredibly inept... "zerg-busting" is no longer a thing. It is virtually impossible for a small group to sustain and hold their ground against a zerg... which is why DKs and Templars hit the bottom, and Sorc and NB rose in power. 1.6 took away the ability for the 2 classes that synergize very well with a tank concept, to hold their ground against a group of players. Took away their ability to form a small cohesive group, to have the potential to force a cluster of people to SPREAD OUT.(from all the bats and banners and novas)

What are they left with now? That is why Sorc and NB suddenly become "FOTM." Sorcs and NBs favor that of maneuverability and escape. You have to escape now... because you can no longer zerg-bust. You are helpess against the train. Thus, you must escape.


Zerg or die.



WTB 1.5

This is so so so true, you said it all. *agree agree agree*

Lava_Croft

First let the new update roll out to the Live server and then see what happens. Speculation about what could happen is a type theorycrafting that gets you threads like this.

k2blader

Ezareth wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Ezareth is calling out to The Lord FENGRUSH!!

Come and watch the stam sorc at work!

I said when all else is equal FENGRUSH. You and I both know you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back with your sorc. It's a testament to your skill that you can succeed with that build. I think most skilled players can make most builds successful because the skill factor in this game is far more understanding core mechanics than it is class balance.

k2blader wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

No if I'm joking I usually put some sort of emoticon or indication that what I've said is sarcasm.

Class balance isn't all that base when you fixed the few issues I pointed out. Sure, there are garbage builds that can't work when all else is equal *cough* stam-sorc *cough*....but every class has access to at least one powerful build that can hold their own against anyone. If they fixed the percentage scaling damage shield issue with the cyrodiil buff in 1.6 you'd see that.

Unfortunately in 2.1 I don't see class balance being as even.

Yeah, I didn't think you were. I'd still argue that those abilities you mentioned aren't OP in themselves; it's that using them in conjunction with a certain CP setup makes that "build" OP.

Frankly I don't like the shield-stacking concept (let alone reality), but light armored magicka builds need something for protection. I wouldn't mind shields going away if something fun and viable replaced them.

The abilities I mentioned *are* OP in that they benefit disproportionately from the Cyrodiil buff while nothing else does. It makes those abilities far more powerful than any other abilities in Cyrodiil right now. CPs make them even more OP but as it stands they're far too strong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Sorcs or damage shields by any stretch but I think there has to be a degree of balance. When a player can cast with impunity against another player beating on their shields without fear of harm then something is usually wrong or the other player is just bad.

In all seriousness I can't cast with impunity when another player is beating on my shields. If it's a good damage dealer who knows how to CC usually I am too busy refreshing shields to do much damage back at all.

After someone posted their shields' numbers with 100 CPs in Bastion on another thread it kinda hit me that's probably how some sorcs' shields seem so invincible to people-- and I do think that's OP. However, I don't think all magicka sorcs choose to run that way. It's not fair to assume just because someone mains a sorc (s)he runs that kind of uber-bubble build. That's why I don't think the class shield is too strong-- it should benefit any sorc build. Seems like if something's not balanced well it's Bastion.

tinythinker

Lord_Hev wrote: »

It is virtually impossible for a small group to sustain and hold their ground against a zerg... which is why DKs and Templars hit the bottom, and Sorc and NB rose in power. 1.6 took away the ability for the 2 classes that synergize very well with a tank concept, to hold their ground against a group of players. Took away their ability to form a small cohesive group, to have the potential to force a cluster of people to SPREAD OUT.

I've suggested ways to make (tanky) Templars more useful in that regard, including changing the Spear Wall passive to give a chance to inflict Minor Maim when blocking melee attacks and adding a Knockdown to the Blazing Shield explosion. The latter could be paired effectively with Proximity Detonation. Not a single-shot solution but it would be a step in a better direction.

Dreyloch

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

ShadoPanauin wrote: »

Thank you for covering the universe in salt. We sure could use the extinction of slugs, snails etc.

Seriously though, none of the things you said were true other than the fact that questing is boring.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Class balance? Nope 1-2 classes dominating cyrodiil (NB and sorc).

Class balance is perfectly fine. It only seems imbalanced when the class's player is skilled.

There will also never be perfectly balanced classes.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Enhanced group play? Nope screwed small groups BECAUSE ZERGS FTW.

I don't know who you're playing with, but small group play is perfectly viable.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

More variety? RIP stamina builds unless you're a spin2win zergling.

Non-steel-tornado builds are still perfectly viable.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

You've effectively made numbers matter even more now that everyone can survive a 5 second conceal weapon and not be punished for it, grab a few pocket healers and shazam your a walking raid boss (except this one isnt killable).

It's right that people aren't being one shot.

Pocket healers are a perfectly valid tactic.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Congratulations ZOS, you've added nothing, and made what we already had worse.

Crown store? Mounts? Imperial City? I don't know what you're talking about.

Obviously I'm talking IC. Also if you think small group is viable without dynamic ulti and with this new damage nerf I challenge you to wipe a raid like what used to be possible with 4-8 people against 24

Actually stamina builds got the KO hammer with that dodge roll nerf, I didnt expect it to be that bad, but lets face it, they dont have instant heals or shields, they must facetank while doing damage, with damage being so low, they cant facetank with 4 dodge rolls max before having to stay out of it for a solid 6 seconds (Yes I said 6 seconds as that IS what it is from start of dodge roll to finish).

Never did I say pocket healers weren't a tactic but they dont consist much outside of zergs ahem your main style of play.

But I mean hey, if you wanna spam 3 buttons with 23 other people around you and feel like you genuinely are contributing largely and with skill then whatever floats your boat.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Naming and Shaming comments]

Bro,
This isn't a Super Samurai Sunday movie where 4 guys take on 100 and live. I don't care how skilled you are, it's sheer numbers. Don't blame the rest of the population because ZoS allows the formation of a 24 man group. Also don't expect to live no matter how bad azz you think your group of 8 is, at some point the numbers will always win.

You got 2 options, make more friends or go be a stealth ranger too incapable (or just straight up afraid) to fight face to face and try to one shot people as they run to an objective. Otherwise your QQ is pointless. ZoS can't do anything about people wanting to group up in numbers. I'm pretty sure they won't...ever.

FENGRUSH

Dreyloch wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

ShadoPanauin wrote: »

Thank you for covering the universe in salt. We sure could use the extinction of slugs, snails etc.

Seriously though, none of the things you said were true other than the fact that questing is boring.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Class balance? Nope 1-2 classes dominating cyrodiil (NB and sorc).

Class balance is perfectly fine. It only seems imbalanced when the class's player is skilled.

There will also never be perfectly balanced classes.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Enhanced group play? Nope screwed small groups BECAUSE ZERGS FTW.

I don't know who you're playing with, but small group play is perfectly viable.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

More variety? RIP stamina builds unless you're a spin2win zergling.

Non-steel-tornado builds are still perfectly viable.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

You've effectively made numbers matter even more now that everyone can survive a 5 second conceal weapon and not be punished for it, grab a few pocket healers and shazam your a walking raid boss (except this one isnt killable).

It's right that people aren't being one shot.

Pocket healers are a perfectly valid tactic.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Congratulations ZOS, you've added nothing, and made what we already had worse.

Crown store? Mounts? Imperial City? I don't know what you're talking about.

Obviously I'm talking IC. Also if you think small group is viable without dynamic ulti and with this new damage nerf I challenge you to wipe a raid like what used to be possible with 4-8 people against 24

Actually stamina builds got the KO hammer with that dodge roll nerf, I didnt expect it to be that bad, but lets face it, they dont have instant heals or shields, they must facetank while doing damage, with damage being so low, they cant facetank with 4 dodge rolls max before having to stay out of it for a solid 6 seconds (Yes I said 6 seconds as that IS what it is from start of dodge roll to finish).

Never did I say pocket healers weren't a tactic but they dont consist much outside of zergs ahem your main style of play.

But I mean hey, if you wanna spam 3 buttons with 23 other people around you and feel like you genuinely are contributing largely and with skill then whatever floats your boat.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Naming and Shaming comments]

I don't care how skilled you are

A lot of people dont - thats why they max out their group size instead of striving to be a better player.

Bromburak

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Sure the random players looking for a skyrim itch will buy it and be bored after the first 50 go and fetch quests.

What did you add this patch?

Class balance? Nope 1-2 classes dominating cyrodiil (NB and sorc).
Enhanced group play? Nope screwed small groups BECAUSE ZERGS FTW.

...

Congratulations ZOS, you've added nothing, and made what we already had worse.

Congratulations that you are not able to find a group or matching guild to play this game ...

We (my group) don't join zergs , we don't add random AP leecher, we play as a small group, we have our own objectives and we are very successful. Because we have something you don't have, team spirit and discipline.

I am certain that you prefer playing solo but you are not good at it and unfortunately you didn't find any
matching guild or group or you are the one that doesn't like working to succeed as a team.

Every MMO is full of players that TAKE but don't GIVE, thats why we have thousands of guilds that are not stable but always think they are something special. But when it comes to team play they only average for a reason.

Your choice, always.

Dreyloch

Ezareth wrote: »

Yeah they really need to just significantly reduce the AP gain rates for all involved in anything greater than a 4 man group.

Starting at 5 it should just be reduced by a multiplicative percentage of like 20% per player.

If you get 100 AP in a 4 man group, 5 man should be 80, 6 man should be 64, 7 man 51, 8 man 41, 9 man 33 etc....

This allows Zergs or larger groups the opportunity to still make AP but it will now scale down with the ease at which that AP is earned.

I'm sorry, but outside of trying to become Emp. There really isn't a point to making AP. You use it to buy a few siege weapons here and there, (because lord knows NO ONE wants that crappy gear lol). You get a new shiny title every once in awhile. Which doesn't mean your any better than anyone else, just got more AP total lifetime.

This is meant to be a WAR. In RL yes, sure you could send in Seal team 6 here and there. But they are NOT going to take out an entire army by themselves. Ya all cry about this "small game BS" when that's all it is. You wanna be Seal Team 6? fine, go do that. But don't expect the entire rest of the Army/Faction to just all the sudden break down into little squads to take turns skirmishing like you want.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Dreyloch wrote: »

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

ShadoPanauin wrote: »

Thank you for covering the universe in salt. We sure could use the extinction of slugs, snails etc.

Seriously though, none of the things you said were true other than the fact that questing is boring.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Class balance? Nope 1-2 classes dominating cyrodiil (NB and sorc).

Class balance is perfectly fine. It only seems imbalanced when the class's player is skilled.

There will also never be perfectly balanced classes.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Enhanced group play? Nope screwed small groups BECAUSE ZERGS FTW.

I don't know who you're playing with, but small group play is perfectly viable.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

More variety? RIP stamina builds unless you're a spin2win zergling.

Non-steel-tornado builds are still perfectly viable.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

You've effectively made numbers matter even more now that everyone can survive a 5 second conceal weapon and not be punished for it, grab a few pocket healers and shazam your a walking raid boss (except this one isnt killable).

It's right that people aren't being one shot.

Pocket healers are a perfectly valid tactic.

TheElementalPlatypus wrote: »

Congratulations ZOS, you've added nothing, and made what we already had worse.

Crown store? Mounts? Imperial City? I don't know what you're talking about.

Obviously I'm talking IC. Also if you think small group is viable without dynamic ulti and with this new damage nerf I challenge you to wipe a raid like what used to be possible with 4-8 people against 24

Actually stamina builds got the KO hammer with that dodge roll nerf, I didnt expect it to be that bad, but lets face it, they dont have instant heals or shields, they must facetank while doing damage, with damage being so low, they cant facetank with 4 dodge rolls max before having to stay out of it for a solid 6 seconds (Yes I said 6 seconds as that IS what it is from start of dodge roll to finish).

Never did I say pocket healers weren't a tactic but they dont consist much outside of zergs ahem your main style of play.

But I mean hey, if you wanna spam 3 buttons with 23 other people around you and feel like you genuinely are contributing largely and with skill then whatever floats your boat.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Naming and Shaming comments]

I don't care how skilled you are

A lot of people dont - thats why they max out their group size instead of striving to be a better player.

It's a war FENGRUSH You think the King's of old just sent 6-8 knights to defeat an entire nation's army? No, they sent a few hundred or even thousands. If your going by horseback or walking across an entire country, I think you'd want to assure victory as much as possible. ; p

I'm not trying to defend zergs here. I'm just saying ppl need their heads checked if they think ZoS will change anything about large groups/guilds etc. from forming up and ravaging the countryside. If you want that small scale stuff, there are plenty of other games to play.

I'm just bored at work today because I don't even play this game anymore. The Lag killed that for me. I was looking for improvements coming, but I guess not. Same old cry different day. But when I did, it'd be a very rare occasion when I was in a full raid. Most nights we had maybe..MAYbe 16 tops. Usually more around 12-14. a Large group yes, but I don't consider that a zerg. In fact we tried to avoid all that when not absolutely necessary because of the lag.

Juraigr

Could just bring back 1.5 would solve a lot.of issues