24 man Trials PLEASE!!!!

Fissh

Thymos wrote: »

I just remember playing Rift, and how everyone stopped playing the larger man raids, because there was no true benefit of doing a raid with more people. The only way to get people to do it, would be to add incentive, and I don't care for an incentive to be added to a larger man trial, because then it will lock out those who can't get together for something like this.

Every aspect of the game has a "lock" out to some degree. The current meta demands the use of gear only available in Cryodiil, and forces min/maxers to either pvp or purchase the gear from a pvper. If housing came alone, I would not care, but RPers would love it. In other words, not every aspect of game is for YOU.
With the amount of time between content, especially things like Trials, I believe the 24 man leaves us with something to do after we have figured out how to run the current Trials in less than 10 minutes.....

Thymos

Fissh wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

I just remember playing Rift, and how everyone stopped playing the larger man raids, because there was no true benefit of doing a raid with more people. The only way to get people to do it, would be to add incentive, and I don't care for an incentive to be added to a larger man trial, because then it will lock out those who can't get together for something like this.

Every aspect of the game has a "lock" out to some degree. The current meta demands the use of gear only available in Cryodiil, and forces min/maxers to either pvp or purchase the gear from a pvper. If housing came alone, I would not care, but RPers would love it. In other words, not every aspect of game is for YOU.
With the amount of time between content, especially things like Trials, I believe the 24 man leaves us with something to do after we have figured out how to run the current Trials in less than 10 minutes.....

The same goes for YOU. Not every aspect of the game is for YOU. That's a tired old argument, because it still doesn't support that it SHOULD be in the game.

Cuyler

I love the idea! however with this caveat.....

ESO in particular comes with a laundry list of bugs, dropped connections, exploits and lag that present significant barriers to large raids and the ease in which to complete them. To date, the end result is that most of the hardcore gamers interested in these have simply packed up and moved on to greener pastures.

In addition, The elder scrolls franchise in general has brought a large majority of its solo/single player rpg customers to ESO which tends to create a "casual" atmosphere within the game. All together, this is why we have many "large guilds" with entirely casual membership that have trouble completing the content that is already available as evidenced in any trial leaderboard ranking.

These same guilds tend be the largest opponents of these activities as they already have the "outside looking in" mentality which would worsen with even larger raids. Simply put, ESO may not be ready...take a close look at the leaderboards. There are probably 50 guilds tops that could even participate at this point....most of which are comprised of the same players using their different characters.

Fissh

Thymos wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

I just remember playing Rift, and how everyone stopped playing the larger man raids, because there was no true benefit of doing a raid with more people. The only way to get people to do it, would be to add incentive, and I don't care for an incentive to be added to a larger man trial, because then it will lock out those who can't get together for something like this.

Every aspect of the game has a "lock" out to some degree. The current meta demands the use of gear only available in Cryodiil, and forces min/maxers to either pvp or purchase the gear from a pvper. If housing came alone, I would not care, but RPers would love it. In other words, not every aspect of game is for YOU.
With the amount of time between content, especially things like Trials, I believe the 24 man leaves us with something to do after we have figured out how to run the current Trials in less than 10 minutes.....

The same goes for YOU. Not every aspect of the game is for YOU. That's a tired old argument, because it still doesn't support that it SHOULD be in the game.

Exactly why I wouldn't hop on a player housing thread and campaign against it....

Artis

Fissh wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Our 450+ member Guild can't get 12 people together to learn how to do trials much less run them. The days of the large raiding party are pretty much over in my mind. Too many non game time commitments for these things.

I run a 500 man guild for 10-12months. Pre 1.6 we ran trials Every Single Day. I had ZERO problem getting bodies to go. The gear meta changed and the raid leaders got sick of running the same content for almost a year...., simple as that. Current Trials are old and tired. The gear doesn't fit the meta. Guilds that run Trials died by this means. The days of large scale are gone because of Zeni, not the community.

Oh, so because YOU had zero problem... Well let me tell you my experience. I ran trials pre-1.6 too. PUGs would run them sometimes. However, even then it was almost impossible to get into an SO group or complete any of the hardmodes, because only a couple of guilds (NA DC) would do that and they had "inner circles" and closed groups and would never take me no matter how I want to learn mechanics etc. And I can't blame them, why take a new member if you have people that already know everything. As of now, the old guilds pretty much died, people left to create new guilds... Can you get recruited in one of those easily? No, not really. Just create a toon in DC and try to "look for a raiding guild". Telling you again, there's just a few of them (you can see names on leaderboards) and they don't need new members. 24-man trials will make it impossible for some players to try new content. Now there's at least a chance.
And so you understand, some backstory: I play since release, I started doing the last fight in vet dsa when leaderboards were empty, I completed it in top100, some DC people you see on leaderboards of vdsa/trials were not there, I knew pretty much everyone who completed it before me. And now? I can't even compete for leaderboards or run SO for good score. No groups need me. I barely found a small guild that sometimes runs HMs/SO. Even there at some point I got kicked from a group to free a spot for someone else (and missed SO HM).

GamerzElite

Fissh wrote: »

Thread title, nuff said.

Why you want this? 12 men hel-Ra give us huge lag and FPS drop, 24 Men Hel-Ra I can't imagine......

Fissh

Artemis wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Our 450+ member Guild can't get 12 people together to learn how to do trials much less run them. The days of the large raiding party are pretty much over in my mind. Too many non game time commitments for these things.

I run a 500 man guild for 10-12months. Pre 1.6 we ran trials Every Single Day. I had ZERO problem getting bodies to go. The gear meta changed and the raid leaders got sick of running the same content for almost a year...., simple as that. Current Trials are old and tired. The gear doesn't fit the meta. Guilds that run Trials died by this means. The days of large scale are gone because of Zeni, not the community.

Oh, so because YOU had zero problem... Well let me tell you my experience. I ran trials pre-1.6 too. PUGs would run them sometimes. However, even then it was almost impossible to get into an SO group or complete any of the hardmodes, because only a couple of guilds (NA DC) would do that and they had "inner circles" and closed groups and would never take me no matter how I want to learn mechanics etc. And I can't blame them, why take a new member if you have people that already know everything. As of now, the old guilds pretty much died, people left to create new guilds... Can you get recruited in one of those easily? No, not really. Just create a toon in DC and try to "look for a raiding guild". Telling you again, there's just a few of them (you can see names on leaderboards) and they don't need new members. 24-man trials will make it impossible for some players to try new content. Now there's at least a chance.
And so you understand, some backstory: I play since release, I started doing the last fight in vet dsa when leaderboards were empty, I completed it in top100, some DC people you see on leaderboards of vdsa/trials were not there, I knew pretty much everyone who completed it before me. And now? I can't even compete for leaderboards or run SO for good score. No groups need me. I barely found a small guild that sometimes runs HMs/SO. Even there at some point I got kicked from a group to free a spot for someone else (and missed SO HM).

I am sorry for your experience. Pre 1.6, I personally ran two nights of "core" group SO, and 2-3 nights of Training runs. SO had the problem of the brick wall of a boss Manti that, imo, engineered the lack of interest to take new people because the chance for success was so minimal. Timed runs and leaderboards added to this dynamic as well.
The thread is about 24 man content, not necessarily about what is wrong with the current state of Trials. However, there is a bad current state of Trials that makes my desire for 24 man a bit null and void, I know.
I like to hope that ZoS is recognizing such, and hope to generate interest in not only addressing the current problems but also giving us something of a larger scale for PVE.
@Artemis, you do not need to explain your backstory to me . I have run with you, and was successful. We are on each others friends list
Yes, the current state of game makes it near impossible to get into a HM SO group, and that needs addressed. I am with you there.

Thymos

Fissh wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

I just remember playing Rift, and how everyone stopped playing the larger man raids, because there was no true benefit of doing a raid with more people. The only way to get people to do it, would be to add incentive, and I don't care for an incentive to be added to a larger man trial, because then it will lock out those who can't get together for something like this.

Every aspect of the game has a "lock" out to some degree. The current meta demands the use of gear only available in Cryodiil, and forces min/maxers to either pvp or purchase the gear from a pvper. If housing came alone, I would not care, but RPers would love it. In other words, not every aspect of game is for YOU.
With the amount of time between content, especially things like Trials, I believe the 24 man leaves us with something to do after we have figured out how to run the current Trials in less than 10 minutes.....

The same goes for YOU. Not every aspect of the game is for YOU. That's a tired old argument, because it still doesn't support that it SHOULD be in the game.

Exactly why I wouldn't hop on a player housing thread and campaign against it....

So you're going after my character? Well, that's not what's on trial here. You stated you wanted something, people state they don't want something and give reasons, you then respond by protracting the discussion, then resort to discussing character? That has nothing to do with the discussion. I don't care why you wont campaign against ideas, this is an open forum, and you don't make the rules.

This is a bad idea, a waste of resources for ZOS to even implement, especially because of numerous reasons other people have already given. Bugs, latency, small guilds, the complete solo-friendliness of the game for casuals, etc.

Enough said.

Fissh

Cuyler wrote: »

I love the idea! however with this caveat.....

ESO in particular comes with a laundry list of bugs, dropped connections, exploits and lag that present significant barriers to large raids and the ease in which to complete them. To date, the end result is that most of the hardcore gamers interested in these have simply packed up and moved on to greener pastures.

In addition, The elder scrolls franchise in general has brought a large majority of its solo/single player rpg customers to ESO which tends to create a "casual" atmosphere within the game. All together, this is why we have many "large guilds" with entirely casual membership that have trouble completing the content that is already available as evidenced in any trial leaderboard ranking.

These same guilds tend be the largest opponents of these activities as they already have the "outside looking in" mentality which would worsen with even larger raids. Simply put, ESO may not be ready...take a close look at the leaderboards. There are probably 50 guilds tops that could even participate at this point....most of which are comprised of the same players using their different characters.

I agree, there was a mass exodus of hardcore gamers. I like to hope that some attention to the play style may rekindle some of them. I enjoy the game. I do think the "casual" has done a bit of a take over. Maybe my thoughts are in vain, but I would love some large scale PVE attention. Meta gear attention, mechanics attention over times and points, content that is more than one trial every 9+ months, and some new flavor (24man) could light alot of fire under the pve action. All I am saying really

Audigy

Fissh wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Why do you want this and what is missing from what exists?

Because I like large scale PVE? Because SO is old content? Because guilds that run Trials are becoming less and less (at least competitive ones)? Because running with 24 people and getting them all to understand the "dance" can be fun and exciting? Because it doesn't exist and would be new and exiting for PVE'ers? I can keep going if you want.....

I doubt such content is viable for MMOs these days.

We gamers are not in our teens anymore, we have a family, jobs... who do you want to raid those with? WS, WOW have all failed with their large group concepts, its just not wanted anymore by the public.

In my opinion, MMOs will focus more on mini additions, similar to what Browser Games have right now. A decent housing system, maybe followers, quests that let you do a few bits every day, public dungeons ...

As much I understand the fun of 24 men or even 100 men raids, to organize them is a real issue these days. You wont find people for them and only get a headache from trying.

Small scale or public group content is the future, add to this the typical Browser Game features and an MMO that many can play is there.

Fissh

Thymos wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Thymos wrote: »

I just remember playing Rift, and how everyone stopped playing the larger man raids, because there was no true benefit of doing a raid with more people. The only way to get people to do it, would be to add incentive, and I don't care for an incentive to be added to a larger man trial, because then it will lock out those who can't get together for something like this.

Every aspect of the game has a "lock" out to some degree. The current meta demands the use of gear only available in Cryodiil, and forces min/maxers to either pvp or purchase the gear from a pvper. If housing came alone, I would not care, but RPers would love it. In other words, not every aspect of game is for YOU.
With the amount of time between content, especially things like Trials, I believe the 24 man leaves us with something to do after we have figured out how to run the current Trials in less than 10 minutes.....

The same goes for YOU. Not every aspect of the game is for YOU. That's a tired old argument, because it still doesn't support that it SHOULD be in the game.

Exactly why I wouldn't hop on a player housing thread and campaign against it....

So you're going after my character? Well, that's not what's on trial here. You stated you wanted something, people state they don't want something and give reasons, you then respond by protracting the discussion, then resort to discussing character? That has nothing to do with the discussion. I don't care why you wont campaign against ideas, this is an open forum, and you don't make the rules.

This is a bad idea, a waste of resources for ZOS to even implement, especially because of numerous reasons other people have already given. Bugs, latency, small guilds, the complete solo-friendliness of the game for casuals, etc.

Enough said.

Dont get your panties in a wad, friend. Not questioning your character. This is becoming nothing more than a back and forth, that is what I am saying.
Goodbye.

Thymos

Audigy wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Why do you want this and what is missing from what exists?

Because I like large scale PVE? Because SO is old content? Because guilds that run Trials are becoming less and less (at least competitive ones)? Because running with 24 people and getting them all to understand the "dance" can be fun and exciting? Because it doesn't exist and would be new and exiting for PVE'ers? I can keep going if you want.....

I doubt such content is viable for MMOs these days.

We gamers are not in our teens anymore, we have a family, jobs... who do you want to raid those with? WS, WOW have all failed with their large group concepts, its just not wanted anymore by the public.

In my opinion, MMOs will focus more on mini additions, similar to what Browser Games have right now. A decent housing system, maybe followers, quests that let you do a few bits every day, public dungeons ...

As much I understand the fun of 24 men or even 100 men raids, to organize them is a real issue these days. You wont find people for them and only get a headache from trying.

Small scale or public group content is the future, add to this the typical Browser Game features and an MMO that many can play is there.

That's just how it is nowadays. The casuals completely outnumber the rest.

UrQuan

I'm sure some people would love 24-man trials. What's important to consider, though, is what percentage of the player base actually does trials in the first place. Once you know that, you have to assume that the percentage of the player base that would actually do 24-man trials would be smaller, and would do them less frequently based simply on the additional difficulty of organizing 24 people to group up as opposed to organizing 12 people.

So would it be worth it for ZOS to spend time developing 24-man trials based on the percentage of the player base that would actually do them? I don't have the numbers on how many people do the existing 12-man trials, so I can't say for sure, but my gut tells me it probably wouldn't be worth the dev effort.

Having said that, it would probably be worthwhile to spend dev effort on some trials that scale based on the number of players (maybe each battle with trash mobs has a certain number of mobs for every 4 players in the group, while each boss fight includes an additional mini boss for every 4 players in the group beyond the first 4, as well as increased health on the main boss), so that you could do it with a 4-man group, an 8-man group, a 12-man group, and so on up to a maximum of a 24-man group.

Osteos

I'm actually the opposite. I would like to see content for 6 people. For the most part I usually have about 6 people that want to do something. Too many for dungeons not enough for a trial.

DenMoria

What's a "Trial Run"? Is it anything like group dungeons? Sorry, I'm totally new to MMO's so I have no clue.

Thymos

DenMoria wrote: »

What's a "Trial Run"? Is it anything like group dungeons? Sorry, I'm totally new to MMO's so I have no clue.

A Trial is a 12 player dungeon. The difficulty is scaled to 12-players.

Cuyler

DenMoria wrote: »

What's a "Trial Run"? Is it anything like group dungeons? Sorry, I'm totally new to MMO's so I have no clue.

The word "Trial" specifically refers to a 12 player "Timed Trial". The Trials completions are tied to leaderboards in which the score/rank is increased based on how fast the trial is completed and varying other factors like amount of deaths and number of mobs killed.

Cuyler

Fissh wrote: »

I would love some large scale PVE attention. Meta gear attention, mechanics attention over times and points, content that is more than one trial every 9+ months, and some new flavor (24man) could light alot of fire under the pve action. All I am saying really

Haha, yuup.....you, me and everyone else in my guilds too

Audigy wrote: »

[I doubt such content is viable for MMOs these days.

[SNIP]

As much I understand the fun of 24 men or even 100 men raids, to organize them is a real issue these days. You wont find people for them and only get a headache from trying.

Small scale or public group content is the future, add to this the typical Browser Game features and an MMO that many can play is there.

I disagree, but that may be due to what I'm finding to be an increasingly unique situation. Some of the guilds I'm in, although considered small, more often than not have to turn away great players from a raid because too many want to participate. We discus including these larger raids many times. The market is there and it would add needed depth to the game. More so than generic busy work like housing, farming, crafting etc.

Don't get me wrong the player pool is still small atm but that's not reason not to provide avenues for casual players to grow into larger raids, that's progression. The point I was trying to make earlier is that the real issue is implementation, lag, load screens etc. Those really interested in this want to compete and its already tough with the dropped connections with 12 players.

Artis

@Fissh , I'm not sure I ever mention my character's name and my @userID is different from my forum name, so maybe you mistook me for someone.. or maybe you didn't
All I'm saying is that it would be really hard for me and, I bet, quite a few other players to find a 24man group.
On the other hand, 24 man trials would mean that there are more vacant spots so who knows...
As for me, I'd rather see more 4man trials like vet dsa or maybe even solo trials? Something that takes skill rather than connections (how many people you know that will invite you to their guild/group).