PSA: 0 Stam Regen while blocking an issue? Not for a DK

MrTtheDK

After tanking both vet white gold tower and imperial city prison on my dummer dk, I can confirm that it isnt an issue at all for pvers to complete content. I can also say that for the most part, I didnt even require repentance nor shards. 1.6 tanking is joke. This change imo is much needed to re-balance tanking so that it just isnt a dps with a taunt. Yes tanking is harder but the current content in 1.6 is very disappointing if your tank doesnt have to worry about running out of stam. FYI I perma blocked every fight and never ran out so the one hitter quiter manti shots are not something you need to worry about.

Tonturri

But what about the other three classes that don't have the resource regen on ult and the 5% stam regen on Earthen heart skills, one of which is an absorb shield that you will be using as much as possible?

I'n not worried about my DK, I'm pondering going a heavy magicka-regen build in heavy armor, with as much stamina as possible so that I can get the most out of earthen heart stamina regen skills. Battle Roar is, while nerfed, probably still quite effective. I just worry about my templar and sorcerer tanks - presumably nightblades will use their syphoning strikes thingy.

MrTtheDK

Tonturri wrote: »

But what about the other three classes that don't have the resource regen on ult and the 5% stam regen on Earthen heart skills, one of which is an absorb shield that you will be using as much as possible?

I'n not worried about my DK, I'm pondering going a heavy magicka-regen build in heavy armor, with as much stamina as possible so that I can get the most out of earthen heart stamina regen skills. Battle Roar is, while nerfed, probably still quite effective. I just worry about my templar and sorcerer tanks - presumably nightblades will use their syphoning strikes thingy.

I think of all the classes for tanking templars will be the weakest since their repentance will be used by the healer but I dont think it will be impossible for them. With shards and repentance it will still be possible. Templars are still really great dps and the best healers in the game so sadly someone needs to be last in tanking unfortunately for healer tanks.


Sorc tanking on the other hand I believe will be just fine. I could see some pretty cool combos with sorc vamp tanks using suppression field and the dark deal. Dont forget as well you can still regen stam in mist form as well. Sorcs also have their armor passive for 5 percent more stam too.

xaraan

Hmm. I think when you are talking about one specific class working well for something, the issue is more about that class than the mechanic. Most people already feel the nerf to blocking was because of DK permablocking in pvp and still putting out decent damage. The issue is with the class more than blocking IMO, though some penalty should be there.

But you are right. After playing my Templar tank, DK Tank and NB Tank (haven't messed with my sorc tank on pts yet) the DK is by far (and how could it be any other way) the strongest tank. My NB worked fairly well using siphoning to regain stam. My Templar on the other hand, even with my own and our templar's repentance and shards from our templar AND the black rose set, was struggling. Maybe if they are going to stick with the no stam while blocking, they need to change the templar passive that gives them bonus mitigation to one that gives them a chance on hit while blocking to gain stam back. I realize some classes are more suited to some roles than others, but every class should be able to at least hang in there.

This being said, I'm talking about the vet versions of the new dungeons, the hardest content - the normal mode was pretty easy for any build.

Though I still think there will be a blocking issue in PVP due to latency. If I cannot reactively block because of latency issues or the way powers work (looking at you charge - triggering effect on activation not when the person gets to me) then this move should not be done until it can be done right.

Cinbri

I agree, tanking is way too easy in 1.6. But this change is terrible for 1.7 PvP.

Rinmaethodain

MrTtheDK wrote: »

After tanking both vet white gold tower and imperial city prison on my dummer dk, I can confirm that it isnt an issue at all for pvers to complete content. I can also say that for the most part, I didnt even require repentance nor shards. 1.6 tanking is joke. This change imo is much needed to re-balance tanking so that it just isnt a dps with a taunt. Yes tanking is harder but the current content in 1.6 is very disappointing if your tank doesnt have to worry about running out of stam. FYI I perma blocked every fight and never ran out so the one hitter quiter manti shots are not something you need to worry about.

Wow, we are so happy and saved.

ONE person of unknown time in game and number of CP have beaten two new vet dungeons (thats the person claim) with unknown team of DPSes and Healers and that person proudly states that

0 stamina regen is not an issue

for all pvers

We are saved

/sarcasm

@OP you should start thinking in different categories than "me myself" and realise that beside you there are also other players. If there wont be tanks at the bottom, then soon there wont be any new tanks at top since the unjustified uberneft to stamina regen will discourage players.

Tonnopesce

MaximusDargus wrote: »

MrTtheDK wrote: »

After tanking both vet white gold tower and imperial city prison on my dummer dk, I can confirm that it isnt an issue at all for pvers to complete content. I can also say that for the most part, I didnt even require repentance nor shards. 1.6 tanking is joke. This change imo is much needed to re-balance tanking so that it just isnt a dps with a taunt. Yes tanking is harder but the current content in 1.6 is very disappointing if your tank doesnt have to worry about running out of stam. FYI I perma blocked every fight and never ran out so the one hitter quiter manti shots are not something you need to worry about.

Wow, we are so happy and saved.

ONE person of unknown time in game and number of CP have beaten two new vet dungeons (thats the person claim) with unknown team of DPSes and Healers and that person proudly states that

0 stamina regen is not an issue

for all pvers

We are saved

/sarcasm

@OP you should start thinking in different categories than "me myself" and realise that beside you there are also other players. If there wont be tanks at the bottom, then soon there wont be any new tanks at top since the unjustified uberneft to stamina regen will discourage players.

We have got already plenty of threads claiming that no regen is not an issue, in the new dungeons, in the old ones, and even in trials.

Now my question is directly for you "Mr Dargus the only real tank in the game" have you tried the new system or you just come to spam nonsense in every thread without a clue of what you are talking?

Btw i've already tried with a dk tank (template) to do the new dungeons (normal) and you know what? i've done both, and with a PUG group.

Swarog

Show me the video with successful AA HM Axes tanking on 2.1 PTS.

Colosso-monstro

But how many CP do you have?

Forestd16b14_ESO

*drinks mead* That's pretty much what #Wheebler said. Learn to tank and all.

Halfwitte

Swarog wrote: »

Show me the video with successful AA HM Axes tanking on 2.1 PTS.

This.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

*drinks mead* That's pretty much what #Wheebler said. Learn to tank and all.

Surprise! *Shocked Face* says the same thing in every thread except when QQ about having to collect motif pieces.

eliisra

I dont think tanking without stamina regen while blocking is an issue either...if you play DK.

You have natural ways to restore stamina on a DK, outside of dropping blocks or getting Spears.

But how the hell are templars suppose to tank comfortably 2.1? Always having a second templar in every single group spamming spears to the templar tanking(and you will probably still struggle)? How is that a solution?

I'm only fine with this change if ZOS balances stamina management for all classes. That needs to be done, or finding a tank in PvE will be a complete pain in the butt in 2.1. Always finding a mandatory templar for Repentance and Spear duty, seems just as annoying. There's 2 new dungeons coming out, everyone will be keen on farming them, but only certain class constellations will be able to complete them?

Dracane

Agree to OP I love the change either.
1.6 tanking is boring and tireing. It's so much fun now and a bit more challeging in some situations.
Now I can finally make use of abilities, that I always wanted to use for tanking but never did, because it wasn't needed.

kaorunandrak

I'm fine with the changes as long as they nerf magika regen as well, tired of seeing mages in PvP block casting. THis change isn't just a tank/pve issue this effects DPS/Healers/PVP as well remember that.

I already posted a change to this ability that I think would be a better answer and would still hit the target they want. Have blocking put you into an offensive debuff situation, have block increase the costs of ALL skills magika and stamina, and reduce their potency. Meaning that you can technically block cast but you will burn more resources and for less gain.

There has to be parity here or stamina builds are going to be left in the dust again by magika, there is simply way to much of a drain on our stamina bars using "smart" combat mechanics and not enough support for hybrid builds to make investing in both resources viable to counter act.

olemanwinter

Dracane wrote: »

Agree to OP I love the change either.
1.6 tanking is boring and tireing. It's so much fun now and a bit more challeging in some situations.
Now I can finally make use of abilities, that I always wanted to use for tanking but never did, because it wasn't needed.

I'm so glad they raised taxes on me. Now I can finally hire an accountant to help me find loopholes to avoid the taxes where I never did, because it wasn't needed.

...I don't even ;-/

Stalwart385

I call bs. Make sure its on vet next time. Normal mode is a face roll. Adapted and completed is one thing, completed with no stam issues is bs.

The fact that you think vet prison is no problem for all pvers says it all. The first bosses flurry hit for 30k+ with minor maim and 32.5k armor. Two atros and the second boss will drop your stam like it was never there. Good luck getting a run of the mill group grenading the spawn so you have less than three atros. Dont get me wrong, I like that its tough but you are way off base with what you are conveying.

You can not perma block without running out of stam. If you could the whole nerf was for naught. Is the content still doable, sure. Are tank going to have issues, yes they will have to adapt. Along with the healers and dps, because tanks can't do as much as they used to.

1.6 was only boring if you let it be. There was always more you could do to improve your group. Im okay with taking more stam for blocking, but completly nixing the stam regen stat for tanks was silly.

Attorneyatlawl

MrTtheDK wrote: »

After tanking both vet white gold tower and imperial city prison on my dummer dk, I can confirm that it isnt an issue at all for pvers to complete content. I can also say that for the most part, I didnt even require repentance nor shards. 1.6 tanking is joke. This change imo is much needed to re-balance tanking so that it just isnt a dps with a taunt. Yes tanking is harder but the current content in 1.6 is very disappointing if your tank doesnt have to worry about running out of stam. FYI I perma blocked every fight and never ran out so the one hitter quiter manti shots are not something you need to worry about.

I agree, personally. You can use siphoning attacks on a Nightblade on pts equally as easily, and I have tested even with a a bunch of mobs hitting me and pretending I was tanking a trial by keeping a bunch of those, taunted, without a problem in a nice build. I tanked a little bit of vet stuff and solo'd a ton of sewers trash packs with reasonably quick killing speed still even and got the hang of it pretty quickly when practicing. Sorcs now have dark deal as a 1 second cast, and templars have their own benefits such as empowering sweep for a large flat damage percent reduction on all incoming damage with a high uptime, along with their own niceties such as blazing or radiant ward (worse damage but better magicka efficiency for aoe per shield due to increased strength), and Eclipse to shut down casters, and for aoe pulls repentance is killer. I never tanked regularly on live, because quite frankly it was drop dead boring with how simple it felt and was. With the 2.1 changes on pts I'm very much interested now in tanking trials and other content again finally with regularity.

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I call bs. Make sure its on vet next time. Normal mode is a face roll. Adapted and completed is one thing, completed with no stam issues is bs.

The fact that you think vet prison is no problem for all pvers says it all. The first bosses flurry hit for 30k+ with minor maim and 32.5k armor. Two atros and the second boss will drop your stam like it was never there. Good luck getting a run of the mill group grenading the spawn so you have less than three atros. Dont get me wrong, I like that its tough but you are way off base with what you are conveying.

You can not perma block without running out of stam. If you could the whole nerf was for naught. Is the content still doable, sure. Are tank going to have issues, yes they will have to adapt. Along with the healers and dps, because tanks can't do as much as they used to.

That's why you recognize a skill starting its channel with multiple hits like flurry, and dodge roll rather than standing there grinning with your block key held down and calling it tanking. Or sidestep, because Npc flurries, last I checked and this did include even Hiath in round 10 vet DSA, do not follow you if you aren't in front of it. Only the last hit, if you look at the Tooltip for flurry, hits very hard. Either one makes you not take anywhere near as much damage or stamina loss as stamina is a flat cost for each hit absorbed, and flurry has six. That's the kind of thing, among numerous other bits, I was surprised to see so, so very many tanks insist they never did and that they only really tried to permablock, and that was why the PTS change, which was insisted by the overwhelming majority of live tanks, would supposedly make tanking impossibly or nearly so, hard that most couldn't even do it and even many of the best supposedly wouldn't manage it.

I tanked vdsa Hiath a long time ago with a dual staff setup in 5pc light armor with a fairly new group that asked me to tag in. They didn't do 50 to zero, let alone 100 to zero, and so I had to not only tank the adds, but also withstand the flames to boot. The group ultimately didn't have the dps or healing and so I remained the last one alive each time with their best attempt landing at about 10 percent with the adds dead on Hiath. Those were each extremely long attempts in that group, with all of the adds eventually dead, but failed before they could finish. One of the dps dropped out after a few tries, and a new tank was available so I changed to dps to round out the group. The adds died very very quickly in comparison but the tank died before the second set made it out even and he was using a sword and shield along with five heavy armor pieces. He quit after just that one attempt and the group broke.

I don't tank very regularly, and that isn't because I can't do it on live for trials etc but because if you put on a sword and shield right now and then either 5pc heavy or some block cost reduction glyphs instead, and then simply use an armor/spell buff, it is downright too easy to the point of being boring to me even in trials. Strong dps has a much higher skill cap there, and even healing does if you're also doing moderate dps. I know a lot of tanks who quit because they found it to be the same way I did. I remained mostly just dps as I had been instead. But that is why there is a lack of good pve tanks for trials to go around right now on live. Most of them quit because it was too easy not too hard, for them and it simply didn't interest them to not play the roles they normally loved in mmorpg pve.

I argued it would add a much needed change in difficulty but no one really, apart from a select few insightful posters, picked up on it even though I outlined numerous ways to tank more effectively in particular once this was going to hit the PTS and they should wait on judgement before even logging in there, because if they didn't do anything but tape down block now they would need to learn how to more interactively tank, as simply overpowering the game's tanking mechanics wouldn't work well anymore but the game would benefit.

Zos mentioned on eso live that before pts the feedback was basically 99 percent against it. As of Friday they had already seen a marked and drastic split to about half supporting it at many different player skill levels, and half not liking it. As I kept saying, try it, learn how to do it if you didn't already efficiently tank on live, and you'll probably find with a bit of time you'll come to like it. If not, then maybe some other role .

Stalwart385

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

MrTtheDK wrote: »

After tanking both vet white gold tower and imperial city prison on my dummer dk, I can confirm that it isnt an issue at all for pvers to complete content. I can also say that for the most part, I didnt even require repentance nor shards. 1.6 tanking is joke. This change imo is much needed to re-balance tanking so that it just isnt a dps with a taunt. Yes tanking is harder but the current content in 1.6 is very disappointing if your tank doesnt have to worry about running out of stam. FYI I perma blocked every fight and never ran out so the one hitter quiter manti shots are not something you need to worry about.

I agree, personally. You can use siphoning attacks on a Nightblade on pts equally as easily, and I have tested even with a a bunch of mobs hitting me and pretending I was tanking a trial by keeping a bunch of those, taunted, without a problem in a nice build. I tanked a little bit of vet stuff and solo'd a ton of sewers trash packs with reasonably quick killing speed still even and got the hang of it pretty quickly when practicing. Sorcs now have dark deal as a 1 second cast, and templars have their own benefits such as empowering sweep for a large flat damage percent reduction on all incoming damage with a high uptime, along with their own niceties such as blazing or radiant ward (worse damage but better magicka efficiency for aoe per shield due to increased strength), and Eclipse to shut down casters, and for aoe pulls repentance is killer. I never tanked regularly on live, because quite frankly it was drop dead boring with how simple it felt and was. With the 2.1 changes on pts I'm very much interested now in tanking trials and other content again finally with regularity.

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I call bs. Make sure its on vet next time. Normal mode is a face roll. Adapted and completed is one thing, completed with no stam issues is bs.

The fact that you think vet prison is no problem for all pvers says it all. The first bosses flurry hit for 30k+ with minor maim and 32.5k armor. Two atros and the second boss will drop your stam like it was never there. Good luck getting a run of the mill group grenading the spawn so you have less than three atros. Dont get me wrong, I like that its tough but you are way off base with what you are conveying.

You can not perma block without running out of stam. If you could the whole nerf was for naught. Is the content still doable, sure. Are tank going to have issues, yes they will have to adapt. Along with the healers and dps, because tanks can't do as much as they used to.

That's why you recognize a skill starting its channel with multiple hits like flurry, and dodge roll rather than standing there grinning with your block key held down and calling it tanking. Or sidestep, because Npc flurries, last I checked and this did include even Hiath in round 10 vet DSA, do not follow you if you aren't in front of it. Only the last hit, if you look at the Tooltip for flurry, hits very hard. Either one makes you not take anywhere near as much damage or stamina loss as stamina is a flat cost for each hit absorbed, and flurry has six. That's the kind of thing, among numerous other bits, I was surprised to see so, so very many tanks insist they never did and that they only really tried to permablock, and that was why the PTS change, which was insisted by the overwhelming majority of live tanks, would supposedly make tanking impossibly or nearly so, hard that most couldn't even do it and even many of the best supposedly wouldn't manage it.

I tanked vdsa Hiath a long time ago with a dual staff setup in 5pc light armor with a fairly new group that asked me to tag in. They didn't do 50 to zero, let alone 100 to zero, and so I had to not only tank the adds, but also withstand the flames to boot. The group ultimately didn't have the dps or healing and so I remained the last one alive each time with their best attempt landing at about 10 percent with the adds dead on Hiath. Those were each extremely long attempts in that group, with all of the adds eventually dead, but failed before they could finish.

I don't tank very regularly, and that isn't because I can't do it on live for trials etc but because if you put on a sword and shield right now and then either 5pc heavy or some block cost reduction glyphs instead, and then simply use an armor/spell buff, it is downright too easy to the point of being boring to me even in trials. Strong dps has a much higher skill cap there, and even healing does if you're also doing moderate dps.

I argued it would add a much needed change in difficulty but no one really, apart from a select few insightful posters, picked up on it even though I outlined numerous ways to tank more effectively in particular once this was going to hit the PTS and they should wait on judgement before even logging in there, because if they didn't do anything but tape down block now they would need to learn how to more interactively tank, as simply overpowering the game's tanking mechanics wouldn't work well anymore but the game would benefit.

Zos mentioned on eso live that before pts the feedback was basically 99 percent against it. As of Friday they had already seen a marked and drastic split to about half supporting it at many different player skill levels, and half not liking it. As I kept saying, try it, learn how to do it if you didn't already efficiently tank on live, and you'll probably find with a bit of time you'll come to like it. If not, then maybe some other role .

The flurry can not be sidestepped. If you try and dodge it he will chase you down and hit you before you get block back up. Not to mention the waste of stam. The entire attack quickly drops your health. You can watch it drop in chunks.

I find it insulting that people think end game 1.6 tanks sat there with rmb held down and ate some lunch. If you want a better score you did more as a tank. You helped your healers by avoiding damage so they could dps more or needed less healers. You gathered mobs to increase aoe dps. You did damage your self, along with buff/debuff rotations. That is how you made your group better. Now tanks have to be purely worried about tanking and healers more concerned with their tanks. If that is bad or good thats opinion. But dont tell me its no issue and no one will have peoblems. Im doing extra to get higher leaderboard scores. What about the people having trouble completing vdsa and hard modes just doing their basic roles as is. They are going to have big issues. If you thought tanking was boring you were gimping what you could have done for your group.

Domander

Cinbri wrote: »

I agree, tanking is way too easy in 1.6. But this change is terrible for 1.7 PvP.

I think you mean it will be awesome for pvp.

SeptimusDova

This is an attempt to cull zergs right? If so we will see if it works. Instead of reducing Prox det. The best way to eliminate zergs would be to increase prox det to appx 1 megaton worth of DPS. A Zerg Wiper.The Army ants of destruction will carry on despite this effort.Latency FPS/Ping imbalance will get worse not better.

Rinmaethodain

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

MrTtheDK wrote: »

After tanking both vet white gold tower and imperial city prison on my dummer dk, I can confirm that it isnt an issue at all for pvers to complete content. I can also say that for the most part, I didnt even require repentance nor shards. 1.6 tanking is joke. This change imo is much needed to re-balance tanking so that it just isnt a dps with a taunt. Yes tanking is harder but the current content in 1.6 is very disappointing if your tank doesnt have to worry about running out of stam. FYI I perma blocked every fight and never ran out so the one hitter quiter manti shots are not something you need to worry about.

Wow, we are so happy and saved.

ONE person of unknown time in game and number of CP have beaten two new vet dungeons (thats the person claim) with unknown team of DPSes and Healers and that person proudly states that

0 stamina regen is not an issue

for all pvers

We are saved

/sarcasm

@OP you should start thinking in different categories than "me myself" and realise that beside you there are also other players. If there wont be tanks at the bottom, then soon there wont be any new tanks at top since the unjustified uberneft to stamina regen will discourage players.

We have got already plenty of threads claiming that no regen is not an issue, in the new dungeons, in the old ones, and even in trials.

Now my question is directly for you "Mr Dargus the only real tank in the game" have you tried the new system or you just come to spam nonsense in every thread without a clue of what you are talking?

Btw i've already tried with a dk tank (template) to do the new dungeons (normal) and you know what? i've done both, and with a PUG group.

Yeah, right... we have individuals of unknown background with teams put together from people who went to PTS because they are starved of content so they pretty much spent a LOT of time on live already memorising every pattern of old dungeons and perfecting gameplay... the 1% again who thinks only in categories of "Me, Myself"

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201125/allow-stamina-regeneration-while-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201750/no-stam-regen-while-blocking-this-has-got-to-be-pulled-before-it-goes-live/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190299/pve-tanking-future-do-not-get-rid-of-stam-regen-while-blocking-in-pve/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200917/pve-tanking-future-r-i-p-tanks-do-not-get-rid-of-stam-regen-while-blocking-in-pve/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202620/if-its-so-much-fun-to-not-regen-stamina-while-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201150/just-tested-my-tank-on-pts/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202628/poll-stam-regen-on-blocking/p1

Tonnopesce

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

MrTtheDK wrote: »

After tanking both vet white gold tower and imperial city prison on my dummer dk, I can confirm that it isnt an issue at all for pvers to complete content. I can also say that for the most part, I didnt even require repentance nor shards. 1.6 tanking is joke. This change imo is much needed to re-balance tanking so that it just isnt a dps with a taunt. Yes tanking is harder but the current content in 1.6 is very disappointing if your tank doesnt have to worry about running out of stam. FYI I perma blocked every fight and never ran out so the one hitter quiter manti shots are not something you need to worry about.

Wow, we are so happy and saved.

ONE person of unknown time in game and number of CP have beaten two new vet dungeons (thats the person claim) with unknown team of DPSes and Healers and that person proudly states that

0 stamina regen is not an issue

for all pvers

We are saved

/sarcasm

@OP you should start thinking in different categories than "me myself" and realise that beside you there are also other players. If there wont be tanks at the bottom, then soon there wont be any new tanks at top since the unjustified uberneft to stamina regen will discourage players.

We have got already plenty of threads claiming that no regen is not an issue, in the new dungeons, in the old ones, and even in trials.

Now my question is directly for you "Mr Dargus the only real tank in the game" have you tried the new system or you just come to spam nonsense in every thread without a clue of what you are talking?

Btw i've already tried with a dk tank (template) to do the new dungeons (normal) and you know what? i've done both, and with a PUG group.

Yeah, right... we have individuals of unknown background with teams put together from people who went to PTS because they are starved of content so they pretty much spent a LOT of time on live already memorising every pattern of old dungeons and perfecting gameplay... the 1% again who thinks only in categories of "Me, Myself"

TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF ?

Wing

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Yeah, right... we have individuals of unknown background with teams put together from people who went to PTS because they are starved of content so they pretty much spent a LOT of time on live already memorising every pattern of old dungeons and perfecting gameplay... the 1% again who thinks only in categories of "Me, Myself"

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201125/allow-stamina-regeneration-while-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201750/no-stam-regen-while-blocking-this-has-got-to-be-pulled-before-it-goes-live/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190299/pve-tanking-future-do-not-get-rid-of-stam-regen-while-blocking-in-pve/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200917/pve-tanking-future-r-i-p-tanks-do-not-get-rid-of-stam-regen-while-blocking-in-pve/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202620/if-its-so-much-fun-to-not-regen-stamina-while-blocking/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201150/just-tested-my-tank-on-pts/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202628/poll-stam-regen-on-blocking/p1

yup, because a few exceptional people say something was boring to them and entire mechanic was gutted, if the some of our original devs was still around I very much doubt this would have gone through, but they had the advantage of being good at their job.

still no official response from ZoS even acknowledging complaints other then the occasional one of their dogs on a leash barking in these threads on occasion, and I have not interest in conversing with those.

MrTtheDK

Stalwart385 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

MrTtheDK wrote: »

After tanking both vet white gold tower and imperial city prison on my dummer dk, I can confirm that it isnt an issue at all for pvers to complete content. I can also say that for the most part, I didnt even require repentance nor shards. 1.6 tanking is joke. This change imo is much needed to re-balance tanking so that it just isnt a dps with a taunt. Yes tanking is harder but the current content in 1.6 is very disappointing if your tank doesnt have to worry about running out of stam. FYI I perma blocked every fight and never ran out so the one hitter quiter manti shots are not something you need to worry about.

I agree, personally. You can use siphoning attacks on a Nightblade on pts equally as easily, and I have tested even with a a bunch of mobs hitting me and pretending I was tanking a trial by keeping a bunch of those, taunted, without a problem in a nice build. I tanked a little bit of vet stuff and solo'd a ton of sewers trash packs with reasonably quick killing speed still even and got the hang of it pretty quickly when practicing. Sorcs now have dark deal as a 1 second cast, and templars have their own benefits such as empowering sweep for a large flat damage percent reduction on all incoming damage with a high uptime, along with their own niceties such as blazing or radiant ward (worse damage but better magicka efficiency for aoe per shield due to increased strength), and Eclipse to shut down casters, and for aoe pulls repentance is killer. I never tanked regularly on live, because quite frankly it was drop dead boring with how simple it felt and was. With the 2.1 changes on pts I'm very much interested now in tanking trials and other content again finally with regularity.

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I call bs. Make sure its on vet next time. Normal mode is a face roll. Adapted and completed is one thing, completed with no stam issues is bs.

The fact that you think vet prison is no problem for all pvers says it all. The first bosses flurry hit for 30k+ with minor maim and 32.5k armor. Two atros and the second boss will drop your stam like it was never there. Good luck getting a run of the mill group grenading the spawn so you have less than three atros. Dont get me wrong, I like that its tough but you are way off base with what you are conveying.

You can not perma block without running out of stam. If you could the whole nerf was for naught. Is the content still doable, sure. Are tank going to have issues, yes they will have to adapt. Along with the healers and dps, because tanks can't do as much as they used to.

That's why you recognize a skill starting its channel with multiple hits like flurry, and dodge roll rather than standing there grinning with your block key held down and calling it tanking. Or sidestep, because Npc flurries, last I checked and this did include even Hiath in round 10 vet DSA, do not follow you if you aren't in front of it. Only the last hit, if you look at the Tooltip for flurry, hits very hard. Either one makes you not take anywhere near as much damage or stamina loss as stamina is a flat cost for each hit absorbed, and flurry has six. That's the kind of thing, among numerous other bits, I was surprised to see so, so very many tanks insist they never did and that they only really tried to permablock, and that was why the PTS change, which was insisted by the overwhelming majority of live tanks, would supposedly make tanking impossibly or nearly so, hard that most couldn't even do it and even many of the best supposedly wouldn't manage it.

I tanked vdsa Hiath a long time ago with a dual staff setup in 5pc light armor with a fairly new group that asked me to tag in. They didn't do 50 to zero, let alone 100 to zero, and so I had to not only tank the adds, but also withstand the flames to boot. The group ultimately didn't have the dps or healing and so I remained the last one alive each time with their best attempt landing at about 10 percent with the adds dead on Hiath. Those were each extremely long attempts in that group, with all of the adds eventually dead, but failed before they could finish.

I don't tank very regularly, and that isn't because I can't do it on live for trials etc but because if you put on a sword and shield right now and then either 5pc heavy or some block cost reduction glyphs instead, and then simply use an armor/spell buff, it is downright too easy to the point of being boring to me even in trials. Strong dps has a much higher skill cap there, and even healing does if you're also doing moderate dps.

I argued it would add a much needed change in difficulty but no one really, apart from a select few insightful posters, picked up on it even though I outlined numerous ways to tank more effectively in particular once this was going to hit the PTS and they should wait on judgement before even logging in there, because if they didn't do anything but tape down block now they would need to learn how to more interactively tank, as simply overpowering the game's tanking mechanics wouldn't work well anymore but the game would benefit.

Zos mentioned on eso live that before pts the feedback was basically 99 percent against it. As of Friday they had already seen a marked and drastic split to about half supporting it at many different player skill levels, and half not liking it. As I kept saying, try it, learn how to do it if you didn't already efficiently tank on live, and you'll probably find with a bit of time you'll come to like it. If not, then maybe some other role .

The flurry can not be sidestepped. If you try and dodge it he will chase you down and hit you before you get block back up. Not to mention the waste of stam. The entire attack quickly drops your health. You can watch it drop in chunks.

I find it insulting that people think end game 1.6 tanks sat there with rmb held down and ate some lunch. If you want a better score you did more as a tank. You helped your healers by avoiding damage so they could dps more or needed less healers. You gathered mobs to increase aoe dps. You did damage your self, along with buff/debuff rotations. That is how you made your group better. Now tanks have to be purely worried about tanking and healers more concerned with their tanks. If that is bad or good thats opinion. But dont tell me its no issue and no one will have peoblems. Im doing extra to get higher leaderboard scores. What about the people having trouble completing vdsa and hard modes just doing their basic roles as is. They are going to have big issues. If you thought tanking was boring you were gimping what you could have done for your group.

So you know Ive tanked everything in the game from 1.4 VDSA through this current patch hardmode SO. Tanking isnt challenging the way it is now. Ive completed VDSA 100's of times with very good groups so I understand that a real good tank does a lot more than just stand and hold block but content should not allow you to be a dps with a taunt. In tanking dps gear I was getting 10-15K for each round in VDSA which is low for a lot of DPS tanks. Content and mechanics should be hard enough where a tank has to be a tank. I am not sure on your prior experience or if you had the opportunity to tank VDSA before the 100 nerfs or SO prior to the I can eat cleaves deal of 1.6 but that was not real tanking. This change while it maybe crazy to some will not only balance pvp blocking out but also provide another challenge to pve tanking because while its more difficult its not as crazy as everyone is thinking.

MrTtheDK

Wow read some of the other posts and lot of you guys are pretty rude with how you word things. Log onto the PTS. Test some builds and see for yourself.

MrTtheDK

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I call bs. Make sure its on vet next time. Normal mode is a face roll. Adapted and completed is one thing, completed with no stam issues is bs.

The fact that you think vet prison is no problem for all pvers says it all. The first bosses flurry hit for 30k+ with minor maim and 32.5k armor. Two atros and the second boss will drop your stam like it was never there. Good luck getting a run of the mill group grenading the spawn so you have less than three atros. Dont get me wrong, I like that its tough but you are way off base with what you are conveying.

You can not perma block without running out of stam. If you could the whole nerf was for naught. Is the content still doable, sure. Are tank going to have issues, yes they will have to adapt. Along with the healers and dps, because tanks can't do as much as they used to.

1.6 was only boring if you let it be. There was always more you could do to improve your group. Im okay with taking more stam for blocking, but completly nixing the stam regen stat for tanks was silly.

I was a vampire dummer dk with the atro mundus running 30K health- 20K mana. I used 6 heavy and 1 light with five piece footman, five piece seducer, and engine guardian. In this build you can trade the spheres for which ever resource you needed Health to Magicka (Spell Sym) and Magicka to Stam ( Earthen Heart). I perma blocked all the trash pulls and boss fights. With this in mind, the only way to perma block is to sacrifice on...dps. In 1.6 perma blockers are able to deliver high spell damage builds with storm knight and other sets because they regen stam. These builds will not work in 1.7 thus it is completing the overall objective while providing another challenge.

kaorunandrak

It wont balance pvp because magika builds are still able to block cast. they block and spam spells and when stamina is gone they pop health shields and continue attacking until stamina is back or your dead. if this change has to go through place a magika regen debuff as well then pvp will be balanced.

Rinmaethodain

MrTtheDK wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I call bs. Make sure its on vet next time. Normal mode is a face roll. Adapted and completed is one thing, completed with no stam issues is bs.

The fact that you think vet prison is no problem for all pvers says it all. The first bosses flurry hit for 30k+ with minor maim and 32.5k armor. Two atros and the second boss will drop your stam like it was never there. Good luck getting a run of the mill group grenading the spawn so you have less than three atros. Dont get me wrong, I like that its tough but you are way off base with what you are conveying.

You can not perma block without running out of stam. If you could the whole nerf was for naught. Is the content still doable, sure. Are tank going to have issues, yes they will have to adapt. Along with the healers and dps, because tanks can't do as much as they used to.

1.6 was only boring if you let it be. There was always more you could do to improve your group. Im okay with taking more stam for blocking, but completly nixing the stam regen stat for tanks was silly.

I was a vampire dummer dk with the atro mundus running 30K health- 20K mana. I used 6 heavy and 1 light with five piece footman, five piece seducer, and engine guardian. In this build you can trade the spheres for which ever resource you needed Health to Magicka (Spell Sym) and Magicka to Stam ( Earthen Heart). I perma blocked all the trash pulls and boss fights. With this in mind, the only way to perma block is to sacrifice on...dps. In 1.6 perma blockers are able to deliver high spell damage builds with storm knight and other sets because they regen stam. These builds will not work in 1.7 thus it is completing the overall objective while providing another challenge.

Yeah, i get ya, i bet someone who "completed VDSA 100's of times with very good groups" would want to have provided some challenge in 1.7

Darnathian

kaorunandrak wrote: »

It wont balance pvp because magika builds are still able to block cast. they block and spam spells and when stamina is gone they pop health shields and continue attacking until stamina is back or your dead. if this change has to go through place a magika regen debuff as well then pvp will be balanced.

Omg! This guy wants to nerf magika regen for tanks too. When will it end? Now I have seen everything. Make it easier for everyone. All tanks kindly remove armor and weapons. And stop cheating, no more pots, drinks, or food. You are ruining the game for others.

kaorunandrak

No I don't want to nerf it for tanks, I want them not to make this change. However if they are going to go ahead with it, they better nerf the hell out of magika as well. That way magika builds aren't getting free kills in pvp or out performing stamina builds, cause they can hide behind block and cast their main resource without any draw backs.

What I want them to do is this (or at least entertain one of the other decent ideas that doesn't smack down stamina builds alone):

How about this, increased cost of ALL skills while blocking. This includes Magika and Stamina skills, if you are blocking then your focus should be on blocking I think a 50%-100% increase in skill cost is a better path to walk then the no stamina regen route. You have to remember that this just doesn't effect tanks this also effects stamina DPS's who have no answer to a a magika user when they are wasting their resource on defending and attacking at the same time. And you can't say L2P either because that magika user can block and cast spells because they are using two different resources rather then just one. And they also have very good defensive options that use their magika that they can put up and just go right back into blocking.

Personally I think that blocking should give you an over all offensive debuff, that means using any ability while blocking should cost 75% more and should reduce your damage by no less then 25%. Your blocking it's that simple if your on the defense your focus is there not casting abilities.

To me that keep's it fair block casting goes bye bye, tanks have to jump out from behind the shield if they want to do anything aside from taunt/block in pvp, and magika builds are effected by the change as well. No free pass to magika they have enough going for them they don't need easier targets and less competition.

G0ku

I did tank VDSA before the nerfs came (was first to complete it as AD on EU). I did tank SO before the nerfs came. With my templar.

What you guys fail to see is that you´re a small percentage spending much time thinking out new builds and new ways how to tank this stuff. But most people on live don´t have this mindset. They log in for a short amount of time to have some fun. They don´t want to invest that hard like you do.

Once again those will come to forums and complain and the result will be once again that these dungeons will be dumbed down so hard that everyone will be able to manage it (at least then you can, after grinding those dungeons for hours on pts, tell those pugs to L2P right?). Which will leave the likes of us to an underwhelming face roll dungeon which every chimp can complete such as nowadays VDSA.

Imo they should find another way to prevent permablocking.