This is why no-stam regen while blocking REALLY screws you over.

Baphomet

Okay, I did some quick preliminary testing of this system yesterday, and not only is this new mechanic hands down one of the most unnecessary (my opinion) implementations, it is apparently also extremely poorly designed.

So, everybody knows that you regenerate resources every two seconds in game. From what I could tell, the new anti-regen system does not keep track of your regeneration when it is activated.

This means that if you block in combat, even for a split second, you not only halt the regen, but you also "resets" the regen timer, meaning that if you block in between regenration ticks, you sometimes have to wait for up to two seconds before your stamina starts to regen again.

I wasn't able to reproduce this everytime, but I tried deliberately blocking a split second before the regen tick, and in many cases, I not only lost that regen tick but I also had to wait an additional two seconds before I got the next one, after relasing block.

And really, there are so many other more logical fixed to block-casting (not that it needs a fix with the gross imbalance between mitigation and burst damage in this game).

Why not make a system with diminishing returns meaning that the longer you hold block, the less effective it becomes?

Or a system where the more damage you take over time, the less effective your block becomes?

Or mimic the dodge-roll system and make it so that when you block, it becomes more and more stamina expensive every time your take damage, with a 4 seconds refresh on it.

Just something else than this proposed system because it is, hands down, absolutely rubbish.

Kupoking

the ''timer'' things is what ZoS need as feedback. but still, I dont think its overall a bad thing the blocking nerf.

Vatter

I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

Thats the problem in cyrodiil. zergs have 5-6 dks that just rush in holding block the entire time and spamming whip and talons then when everyone is nice and rooted without stamina (because in the infinite wisdom of ZOS talons doesn't give cc immunity) they just dragon leap.

OR how about those dual wield NB's that follow the DK's into a crowd and hold block and spam steel tornado with mace sharpened Completely ignoring your armor and doing 8k a hit.

I think NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING is amazing and really hope that sos keeps it.

PLEASE KEEP NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING!!!

ColtPython

I don't think this is such a big deal to the tanking as people initially thought. However, this combined with the nerf to dodge roll is a big deal to a stamina dps toon's ability too defend themselves. Blocking and rolling in a fight any more than perfectly well timed will mean certain death to my stam pool. Moreover, in order to not block or roll I have been stacking an outrageous amount of defense (Immovable, Brawler, Mirage, Rally, Vigor). Block casting for stamina dps build is out. Conversely, a magic build will need to be concerned for their stamina but still can block cast a bit more freely and cast wards or cloak much easier as there is less demand on their stamina resources. As it stands right now, I would lean heavily towards a magic build for better survivability in this update or use a one hand and shield with much heavy armor so you can take hits without blocking or dodging and enjoy a reduced block cost.

Baphomet

How DKs and NBs will be able to almost insta-lock down enemies in PvP by depleting their stamina now with talons and fear is a completely different can of worms, maybe even more disruptive than the anti-blocking system, but valid nonetheless.

However, probably best suited for another thread.

ColtPython

Vatter wrote: »

I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

Fine by me. Remove block casting. Bring back block regen.

olemanwinter

Vatter wrote: »

I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

I'll tell you what. Get a job at Zos and be promoted to high within the company and then come back and say thing like that.

redspecter23

Vatter wrote: »

I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

Thats the problem in cyrodiil. zergs have 5-6 dks that just rush in holding block the entire time and spamming whip and talons then when everyone is nice and rooted without stamina (because in the infinite wisdom of ZOS talons doesn't give cc immunity) they just dragon leap.

OR how about those dual wield NB's that follow the DK's into a crowd and hold block and spam steel tornado with mace impenetrable Completely ignoring your armor and doing 8k a hit.

I think NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING is amazing and really hope that sos keeps it.

PLEASE KEEP NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING!!!

Your post covers PVP quite nicely but you forgot that PVE is also a part of the game. While this change might make sense and be a welcome change to PVP, ALL aspects of the game need to be considered before going through with a change that will affect all of those game aspects.

kungmoo

been through both of the new dungeons on vet mode, tanks (one NB tank, one DK) never had an issue with stamina, never asked for a shard from Templar healer or anything... so I don't really see the problem

EDIT: small note on this btw, if I remember correctly the tank had just under 200 cp... so its not because of huge amounts of cp

Rinmaethodain

I see vatter is spitting false facts in every topic about unjustified nerf to stamina regen

Unjustified ubernerfs like "0 stamina regen while blocking" happens when ZOS listens to 1% of blase elite, gross on CP and best gear who will advocate for changes just because "they will adapt" ignoring the fact that beside their own faces, there is 99% of community left.

There is no problem when ZOS decides to give new hard and difficult content to people who are bored with everything there is currently.

But there is a BIG PROBLEM when ZOS decides to ubernerf evey tank in ESO just to artificially make every old content difficult, with an unjustified nerf to the core part of every party. Nerfing tanks and their stamina regen. By doing so they ignore the whole playerbase who does not have perfect skills, perfect gear and perfect cookie cutter builds and didnt grind their teeths down on earning CP.

Im terrified that so far, only feedback to player concerns that ZOS gave, is ALWAYS related to IC PVP content, TV stones and all things related to PVP.

It seems that even ZOS forgot that beside IC, this update also contains a "base game patch" that changes a lot of things, and some of them, just like ubernerf to stamina regen, is not necessary and unjustified. And they are not reacting in any visible way to feedback of those who are most hurt with this nerf, the real tanks of ESO (not fake tanks, dpses with sword and board and damage builds).

And only justification they give is that "they want to make tanking more attactive" and some mysterious dev team apparently "tested all old content and declared its playable". Apparently zos thinks tanking is boring? Well this is false, just like many people proved with anti "0 stam regen" threads. Not to mention that in ZOS QA video, the devs who played it..... noone was actually tanking.

To everyone claiming that tanking is boring. Tanking right now in live is nothing near boring.

They are usually the last one standing when whole group goes down. They are capable of resing people even if attacked by multiple mobs while standing in AOE. They can survive alone long enough to charge an ultimate with high damage shield (leap or magma shell) and bring whole party back to game.

But not anymore. Thanks to ZOS "0 stamina regen while blocking" now every bit of tank stamina will be precious and spent only on blocking attacks. No more rolling, no more dodging, no more sprinting to save party members who went down.
Only NOW thanks to "0 stamina regen while blocking" nerf, tanking will become boring and will be reduced to
- block, taunt, stick your eyes to stamina meter to see when you are about to die, try to throw in heavy attack for stam regen-> too bad there was lag and one of 5 mobs attacking you got his attack trought -> you are dead

If you think its not true, and you still are a tank then you probably spent last 50 dungeon runs with your special selected group of perfect DPSes and Healers doing your perfect runs and your group chat was full of "FTC report player X on enemy Y DPS OVER 10/20/30k!!". This is not tanking, its tagging along. It just asks itself, what is the true reason why some people claim that tanking is boring, and maybe its quite opposite, maybe its because the DPS are overfeed and have so high damage.

Also to everyone claiming this game is too easy. Maybe if you didnt spent last months farming CP after CP, getting best possible gear and running every dungeon in your perfect group of friends, maybe then you wouldnt complain after running vet banished cells that "OMGIENOE CONTENT TOO EASY". Look how silly you look when after so much experience you claim something became too easy, while you think only in the category of "Me and myself". This is plain selfish. Try running a 100% pug with people who never been in that dungeon, see how "boring" tanking is.

Not to mention second false accusation that people are using to advocate for this unjustified nerf, the false statement "Tanks are OP in PVP" and "blockcasting". Some people apparently think everyone who wears sword and board is a tank. I dont have to explain how wrong is that. A full magicka/stam dps build just because he equips sword and board, he is not a tank. It seems the only reason why people complain about tanks in PVP is the fact that overgrown ego of PVPers cant stand the fact that someone survived their "must die one hit KO" assassination attempt. So now they are ganking on forums for true PVE tanks and try to do everything to push this unjustified nerf to live server.

Thanks to the last, PVP DPS see a personal gain in making sure that every tank in ESO will be crippled with unjustified nerf. So we will see a lot of people voting here who have nothing to do with tanking but they will vote just vote for what is good for them and giggle at others misfortune, making tanks even more miserable in PVP than they are now (they only thing tanks have in pvp is defence, and now even this is being taken away). Not to mention people who live with illusion that they are tanks (while they have DPS build and just wear off sword and board), and last but not least people who have nothing to do with tanking, never tanked and they just say what they think they see.

KingShocker

If there is no stam regen while blocking I think the base cost of blocking should be brought down. WB's still two shot yourr stam away, it cc's you if you don't block (either killing you with the next one or forcing you to break free), and roll dodging is more expensive. Other than a couple class abilities how are players going to defend against that?

I agree the problem was more block casting than perma blocking but I don't think removing block casting is the answer either, maybe an increase to ability cost while blocking, I dunno.

If there was no block casting may work alright in PVE where npc's have real obvious visual effects for you to see but players are much harder to anticipate. So think if there was no block casting in PVP do you think player would ever actuating use it? Not likely, they're just going to really on self heals instead. Which is what they're probably going to do with the current nerf on PTS anyways.

Some players want to play a blocking build (not really my thing, but I like seeing other player with there own style) and such a build should be valid not completely useless because they were a little overpowered or allot overpowered if you didn't know how to counter them (which is the feeling I get from allot of posts on this thread). In fact I think the true solution to blocking builds is to make more counters to it. Maybe more block piercing cc's like fear.

But maybe that's just me. I've always been about buffs not nerffs on mmo's. If something is to powerful and working as intended why not buff the counter to it instead (or make a counter if there isn't one already).

Wall-of-text complete

Wing

Vatter wrote: »

rabble rabble exclamation point pvp one one exclamation point one

your bad and you should feel bad, copy pasting does not count either.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Oh wow you have to actually drop block now and you don't like? Stop the programming and change it back for the QQ.

Cathexis

Changes are a joke.

Halfwitte

Vatter wrote: »

I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

Thats the problem in cyrodiil. zergs have 5-6 dks that just rush in holding block the entire time and spamming whip and talons then when everyone is nice and rooted without stamina (because in the infinite wisdom of ZOS talons doesn't give cc immunity) they just dragon leap.

OR how about those dual wield NB's that follow the DK's into a crowd and hold block and spam steel tornado with mace impenetrable Completely ignoring your armor and doing 8k a hit.

I think NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING is amazing and really hope that sos keeps it.

PLEASE KEEP NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING!!!

Sounds like you have a l2p problem. Answer to everything on the forums now days. Here I'll do you one better, we (tanks) will keep the no stamina regen while blocking, but you get no magicka and stamina regen while healing or dpsing and your regen ticks only come every 10 seconds not 2 and if you pop a potion or attempt to regen resources in any other fashion besides waiting on the regen tick it resets the timer. Sounds fair to me.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Oh wow you have to actually drop block now and you don't like? Stop the programming and change it back for the QQ.

Remember when you said this about glass motif, "And again as I said enough with every new thing being chapters. It boring pointless and the gimik died off faster than "arrow to the knee"." Sounds a little like QQ to me. Maybe some people find it fun to collect things.

ZoM_Head

Vatter wrote: »

I'll tell you what, you can have stamina regen while blocking back if ZOS completely removes block casting and ultimate regen while blocking from the game.

Thats the problem in cyrodiil. zergs have 5-6 dks that just rush in holding block the entire time and spamming whip and talons then when everyone is nice and rooted without stamina (because in the infinite wisdom of ZOS talons doesn't give cc immunity) they just dragon leap.

OR how about those dual wield NB's that follow the DK's into a crowd and hold block and spam steel tornado with mace impenetrable Completely ignoring your armor and doing 8k a hit.

I think NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING is amazing and really hope that sos keeps it.

PLEASE KEEP NO STAMINA REGEN WHILE BLOCKING!!!

So how am i to gain ulti in pve while blocking?

You do know that there is a 1 sec delay in switching weapons and/or when light attacking? meaning if you light attack and block, that delay will cause you to take full damage? how is that on the mantikora for example? or the axes in aa? or vdsa? or even i pvp?

You need to have a main character who is a tank and only a tank, solo all pve content with a 1H and shield and come back and say the stam regen is amazing.

My main character since launch of ESO is a dedicated tank, with full heavy and 1H/2H it was so tough to do anything in vet zones, remember the time before vet zones were nerfed?

And now this? really? a Tank's dps is really really low, yes i understand players blocking and casting yes i do know this is an issue in pvp. But removing stamina completely while blocking is not the solution.

Jolinius

SERIOUSLY if this goes live magicka dks are dead. Like you need block up to land like any dk attack especially when more than one person is around.Dks are supposed to be tanky. Heavy armor is useless execpt for block cost reduce because of armor pen. And after damage nerf dk skills are almost useless. I ve only been killed by one dk on pts and it was from wb spam and lack of resources now in general. When i see a dk now im like ooh easy kill. Like if i were the terminator it would read dk = threat level minimal=proceed with slight caution.

Kulvar

Actually, it's on public test server. It's not written in stone.
So, gathering data for ZOS could make them rethink it.

Also, two ideas have been bring as alternate solutions. Because if ZOS want to nerf it, it's because they think it's a problem.
- Preventing to use skills while blocking (which is a "hard nerf" that cannot be scale precisely)
- A less strong nerf to stamina regen while blocking (halving it, further adjustement could be made later if needed)

If I despise unnecessary hard nerf, I'm totally fond of solutions and their testing. I think nerf should be done with parcimony and I favor the second suggested solution because it let ZOS tune more precisely the nerf according to gathered data and further change in other areas.

A third solution I haven't seen is to increase the stamina and magicka cost of skills while blocking. It's similar to the second solution, but impact directly the "burst" ability while blocking. It will lead to a "you can't burst while blocking". And this solution is also adjustable. It could vary from +50% to +150%
The malus can be split between magicka and stamina skills to balance them individually.

Baphomet

Speaking of the live server right now, block-casting isn't really that big of a problem in PvP - there are other disgusting issues which are much more disruptive to the balance, but they aren't getting addressed, so why bash on block-casting when it is actually one of the few things that holds the balance reasonably well together with the game's high burst damage?

Blocking has several counters - luminous shards, streak, fear, fossilize for instance - so all classes already have an anti-blocking mechanism.

Please don't put this system in yet - see how the other changes to shields, healing and damage handle before you break things more than you have to.

Teargrants

Baphomet wrote: »

Speaking of the live server right now, block-casting isn't really that big of a problem in PvP - there are other disgusting issues which are much more disruptive to the balance, but they aren't getting addressed, so why bash on block-casting when it is actually one of the few things that holds the balance reasonably well together with the game's high burst damage?

Blocking has several counters - luminous shards, streak, fear, fossilize for instance - so all classes already have an anti-blocking mechanism.

Please don't put this system in yet - see how the other changes to shields, healing and damage handle before you break things more than you have to.

Sry, just have to correct you, Streak does not go through block and never has since 1.6 went live. The only time it went through block was for 2 weeks on PTS when it was a disorient, people complained and it was changed to a stun.

Baphomet

Ball of lightning still disorients, if I am not mistaken?

Teargrants

Baphomet wrote: »

Ball of lightning still disorients, if I am not mistaken?

Nope, it's a stun.

Baphomet

Wait what... so there is one thing in the toolbox sorcs don't have access to now? Glad the game was better balanced in that regards, ha ha.

Point still being, block casting isn't a really big issue unless you don't know how to handle magicka DKs - only of you couple it with a sorc + shield stacking. That make's life difficult.

Teargrants

Baphomet wrote: »

Wait what... so there is one thing in the toolbox sorcs don't have access to now? Glad the game was better balanced in that regards, ha ha.

Sorcs do have one CC that hits through block, Rune Prison. Now that it's insta cast it does have some use, sort of like a weaker Petrify.

Personofsecrets

Baphomet wrote: »

Please don't put this system in yet - see how the other changes to shields, healing and damage handle before you break things more than you have to.

THIS

Alcast

@ZOS_BrianWheeler any word on this issue?

Rinmaethodain

Alcast wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler any word on this issue?

In last ESO Live they claimed that there is absolutely no issue and they are getting positive feedback about "0 stamina regen while blocking"

Apparently the 20+ pages of feedback about "0 stamina regen while blocking" can be ignored because:

- ZOS thinks that its absolutely impossible to provide a feedback about something before its on PTS (because its not like, any person with a brain, able to think logically, can tell that ubernerfing something to absolute 0 is never going to be good)
- they think that anyone who wasnt on PTS is not allowed to submit feedback,

Because of that in last ESO Live they stated that "we are getting positive feedback about 0 stamina regen while blocking so we will keep it untill we will update live game".

You can think that this makes no sense but there is a reason why they might "think" this change is good.

Right now PTS is dominated by PVP DPS classes just to check ganking and killing players. The most favourite class of ZOS.
Of course they will benefit the most of this "0 stamina regen while blocking" change. Why? Because all those classes want is to KILL EVERYTHING. Of course a tank, a class that IS SUPPOSED to be able to not die from one shot is annoying hell out of them.

What they do? While on mass on PTS they spam false positive /feedback just to give ZOS excuse to push trought this unjustified nerf and give ZOS excuse to keep it untill PTS changes will go live.

Thats why anyone who REALLY cares for future of ESO and PVE tanking should provide the real /feedback about "0 stamina regen while blocking"

Personofsecrets

Alcast wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler any word on this issue?

The only visible attention these stamina regen nerf threads have gotten so far has been because of forum rules not being followed

Xsorus

Problem with the stamina change is it directly nerfs stamina dps in regards to stamina builds and blocking while not doing anything to magicka dps.

Personofsecrets

It also isn't have the intended consequence in pve.

Alcast

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler any word on this issue?

In last ESO Live they claimed that there is absolutely no issue and they are getting positive feedback about "0 stamina regen while blocking"

Apparently the 20+ pages of feedback about "0 stamina regen while blocking" can be ignored because:

- ZOS thinks that its absolutely impossible to provide a feedback about something before its on PTS (because its not like, any person with a brain, able to think logically, can tell that ubernerfing something to absolute 0 is never going to be good)
- they think that anyone who wasnt on PTS is not allowed to submit feedback,

Because of that in last ESO Live they stated that "we are getting positive feedback about 0 stamina regen while blocking so we will keep it untill we will update live game".

Prolly their Gameplay Testing team which has 0 clue about the game, whenever i watch a ZOS live gameplay stream I just laugh my ass of and think What the bloody hell are they DOING.