Can we hope for lag to be gone on August 31?

WRX

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

Do you get AP ticks from this district you had bots fighting in? I do notice if there is an opposing large group at say nikel, and we just enter tick range, that the game begins having some issues. Long before the two groups see each other.

I am far from a computer expert or anything of the sort, but just something I have noticed.

qsnoopyjr

EP has Chillrend.

Everyone on EP will home to Chillrend for this content.

AD kinda has Haderus kinda, so AD will home to Haderus for this content.

No clue who has Thornblade.. AD?

Azura Star, up for grabs.
Every PvP'er will come here.
Lag will remain.

As for the new content.
EP has a buff server for it. No extra lag will be created.
AD has a buff server for it. No extra lag will be created.
DC needs to goto Thornblade and turn that into a buff server. Or Haderus.

AD on Haderus pretty gimp.
3 days ago I ran with a group. They made AD tap out.
tea pot was there too, so not like we faced a bunch of newbs.

I'd really like to see DC goto Haderus and own those AD. Hostile takeover there buff server.
..
You want to get rid of lag. Home elsewhere besides Azura.
I say home Haderus, because they got some chest pumping AD there... Nothing but a peanut.

Talcyndl

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities

May I suggest you test with the bots spam casting only the most server intensive abilities. Because the player blobs mostly don't cast more than a handful of abilities, and they often seem to be the most demanding on your systems.

qsnoopyjr

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

Just so you know.

120 bots doing useless, skills nobody would even think about using is not a good indicator of how things will go with real players.

Did the bots stack together, do them loud noises spam?
Then rush at each other and do more loud noises spam?

Telling ya, the lag is from the loud noises.
Meteor gives that rocket launcher sound.
Purge sounds like the gods are striking people down.

Isnt it a shocker that them low noise big graphics abilities don't lag???

..

Now me, personally, I love the sound effects of purge and meteor, need more sound effects like that.. But I'm pretty sure that's what's causing the lag.

That and huge numbers of people in same spot and approaching them your game has to all of a sudden show all those people.
I think they call that culling.
I think GW2 tried to prevent lag by using culling where some enemies don't show, but they ultimately got rid of culling.

But again,
120 bots?
It's not like they have there own internet connection, doing real player skills, acting like a zerg.

120 bots to me is just like adding 120 NPCs into the game, not gonna effect anything because you ARE the server, doesn't register there connections, and one guy pinging too much doesn't lag up the server and so on and so forth because these are bots.. They are the server, they aren't other hosts connecting to the server and all those variables that take place within that aren't being tested.

Basically you just did a in house loopback.
You should do more external loopbacks.

GW2 on the other hand.
They did an external loopback kinda test with there new pvp system.
They had an open beta.
They did a real life scernario external loopback, not a server is in Seattle.. All the other connections be in Seattle.. They did a open beta... That means someone from China be playing it. That way they can see the real issues occurring. Random joe with dial up could be playing it, and hitting there server to its limits.
Play Quake you learn about IP/Ping/Ping Bombs, play Star Craft, you learn that you play with someone that has dial up.. They cause lag for u too. Learn about latency/lag just by playing StarCraft.

Ghostbane

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

You want to get rid of lag. Home elsewhere besides Azura.
I say home Haderus, because they got some chest pumping AD there... Nothing but a peanut.

That would be awesome, look forward to it!

xaraan

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

Really curious to get a front line view of a test like this to see all the variables. I have a feeling you guys don't take into consideration all the different things going on. Were all those guys in groups? Because there are a lot of checks running just for groups. Were they all standing in each others faces? Meaning no LoS checks at all. Were they using high end abilities and not just basic ones like barriers, meteors, stacked heals, etc. but most importantly the spammed frequency and combined with various armor sets and champ points that provide additional abilities on top of the skill. Not to mention doing them in server, with not having to deal with players spread out across the world, meaning no png issues.

SC0TY999

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

BigTone wrote: »

I was thinking the same thing. To what I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, but a single alliance must control all Imperial keeps to gain access to the IC. What I imagine happening is once all keeps have been controlled everyone from that faction will flock to the entrance location and it will be a lag fest. Players on the opposing factions would have a ganker's paradise until the lag monster comes.

That's why it is important that the DC have a fully functioning army ready to go when Imperial City drops.

I can bet you next month's protein bill that the EP and AD guilds are already huddled up discussing their builds and imperial city. As soon as the green light flashes and the race being we must put our feet right on their throats as they stare up at us from the floor. And if they want to be cute and mouth off, the last thing they will see is my hand (which connects to my forearm, which in turn connects to my BICEP) coming down at them.

SC0TY999

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

Video clip / Proof!

Or it never happened!

JaJaLuka

WRX wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

Do you get AP ticks from this district you had bots fighting in? I do notice if there is an opposing large group at say nikel, and we just enter tick range, that the game begins having some issues. Long before the two groups see each other.

I am far from a computer expert or anything of the sort, but just something I have noticed.

Actually this is a very good point raised here. If the particle effect issue of lag is apparently fixed (I hope anyway), but lag is still persisting, what other conditions have people noticed lag happening?
Personally it seems really random to me at times. I can be happily running along in Cyrodiil through massive fights with huge particle effects going off and other times I'll run into small scale encounters and just crash.

Naphariel

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

So you tried the exact same scenario with 4*120 bots both pre-patch and after it and noticed an actual decrease in lag?
Or did you run it only post-patch, noticed no lag, and just kinda assumed the issue is fixed?
Because to me it seems you have no idea what actually causes it and are just taking wild guesses.

To answer OP's question, no, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Raizin

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

Did those bots stacked at one place and did they spam aoe abilities like caltrops,meteors and healing springs for example? Because if they just hanged out there separatly/splited and usin just basic abilities /non aoe ones/ combined with heavy att and light att - ofc there was no lag.

Dont want to get too optimistic there.

Edit:

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

see it right there - yep.

SC0TY999 wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

Video clip / Proof!

Or it never happened!

+

FENGRUSH

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@Jules forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2024746/#Comment_2024746

Initial entrance is what is what we're discussing there and will be tested on PTS. Once you're inside IC or the Sewers, you can log out and log back in there to your hearts content, even if you lose Access in rule-sets where it's gated by Keep ownership.

Were they in ball groups flooding heals on each other and barriers while the other groups did the same thing while both using AOE on each other? Thats kind of the test you want to do instead of putting 120 bots just using whatever jack off ability in the area on someone else.

AhPook_Is_Here

I feel as long as we can't properly quantify the variables we can always hope.

RinaldoGandolphi

I'll be surprised if the lag is fixed. I hope it is mind you, i really do, im just not getting my hopes up.

If the lag in the IPC is anything like what was going on in Azura's Star NA last night at Chalman and Roe, then the IPC will be dead in the water. If that kinda of killer lag ruins Cyrodiil, it will make the IPC neigh unplyable and that wil be a dealbreaker for many.

I pray to Talos, please let the lag get fixed!

Rasimir

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@Jules forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2024746/#Comment_2024746

Initial entrance is what is what we're discussing there and will be tested on PTS. Once you're inside IC or the Sewers, you can log out and log back in there to your hearts content, even if you lose Access in rule-sets where it's gated by Keep ownership.

Uh, what am I missing? You said IC shares the population cap with cyrodiil. Right now, if i log out in cyro and later on log in again while the campaign is locked, I am back in the pve area I initially came from. Thats always the case when I come bak in th evening hours right now. Is that different for IC? How so, that would push the population over the cap...

PainfulFAFA

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@Jules forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2024746/#Comment_2024746

Initial entrance is what is what we're discussing there and will be tested on PTS. Once you're inside IC or the Sewers, you can log out and log back in there to your hearts content, even if you lose Access in rule-sets where it's gated by Keep ownership.

Were they in ball groups flooding heals on each other and barriers while the other groups did the same thing while both using AOE on each other? Thats kind of the test you want to do instead of putting 120 bots just using whatever jack off ability in the area on someone else.

This.

bosmern_ESO

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

What about Ultimates? Some ultimates like Meteor just currently destroy the servers in the current game. When there is a bit of lag someone will cast meteor and it wont be cast right away, so the person starts spamming the ever living life out of it and just one person spamming meteor can make ping skyrocket to over 3000.

Valnas

WRX wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

Do you get AP ticks from this district you had bots fighting in? I do notice if there is an opposing large group at say nikel, and we just enter tick range, that the game begins having some issues. Long before the two groups see each other.

I am far from a computer expert or anything of the sort, but just something I have noticed.

Last night My client crashed twice with no combat or anyone near me. I reboot the client to be dead with two groups battling nearby. I never saw another player render, but I have the distinct feeling their arrival (or non rendering) is related to the crash. Even navigating the map you can almost ... feel in the force when another group is nearby or flags are flipping in a large keep. Perhaps they could just work with the lag and call it 'The Force'. it binds us together!

bertenburnyb16_ESO

Ryuho

@ZOS_BrianWheeler no offense, but let bots spam: purge, steel tornado, vigor, healing springs - other lag making abilities - and test it in that way, not some single target abilities which big blobs won't use, ppls act like swarm, so u should test it in swarm way.. 40 ppls hug each other and spam purges/healing springs in one place in cyro is enough to make entire server to feel the lag.. if something like that happens in smaller IC area - answer urself..

Btw que from CU News: "As I mentioned in the survey email, we are looking really good technically. We didn’t have a single server crash during the entire test. And, while we’re certainly not ready to say “Mission accomplished” yet, it wasn’t until we hit 1700 Backers and Bots (and as always, our Bots are PC clients, not NPCs)"

I still believe IC can be something huge in ESO history, but if u release it with massive bugs like u did with other patches it will be ur biggest fail for sure, so please do proper testing and include PTS reports!! but prolly we will see only minor changes after PTS testing, even if som1 will report something, u wont't care, DLC is ready, same was with previous patches, bugs reported wasnt included, and some of bugs are with us still from 1.0, do not forget..

Cameron_Star

Iyas wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

May i ask if the bots fought with perma healing Springs, Meteor, purge spam?

And were these bots all on the same local server, or were they based in different countries?

Bromburak

WRX wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

Do you get AP ticks from this district you had bots fighting in? I do notice if there is an opposing large group at say nikel, and we just enter tick range, that the game begins having some issues. Long before the two groups see each other.

You are in a valid area , its independent from client rendering.
As well there are different types of radius that have nothing todo with view range.

Darnathian

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

This Brian. This is what we need more of. They don't just have to be successes either. If you change things and try to fix the lag and it fails then that is a win with the community as we'll. People are leaving PC PVP. That is a fact. You cannot stop it. But you can stop some. Communicating with the player base is one of the best things you can do in a community like this. Pass or fail talk to the player base. Who knows they could help your team.

One thing I have learned about MMO's is there are some really, really smart people.

That said I wish I was one of them

Darnathian

Brian,

To do some actual testing set up events on PTS and invite two opposing guilds. Let them duke it out while troubleshooting. Change some things. See if it works. Bots are a great starting point but some really valid points were made. You could even entice them to participate in trouble shooting. Let them earn AP while doing it.

That was a great point made about the sounds also. Seems like an easy test to set up. Just cancel all sound and let them duke it out with all the spamming abilities. If there is no lag it points you in the right direction.

We do similar testing in Nuclear Power Plants. If you don't understand an issue, do a broad range to identify the area(s) then narrow it down.

Elsonso

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

I am curious as to what the additional scenario testing revealed. I wonder if @ZOS_BrianWheeler will be able to update us.

mtwiggz

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

Sure hope those bots are as efficient at; purge, healing springs, meteor, dawnbreaker, impulse, bats, nova, breath of life spam as 120 players are. As I honestly don't believe 120 bots - all 'located' in the same area (even with artificial latency) - can come close to performing the same as actual players.

Suppose time will tell, hopefully you're right. As this lag issue is absolutely horrendous. I love ESO PvP when I can actually play it instead of 'Elder Scrolls Online: Rubberbands Unlimited'.

smee_z

WRX wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

The bots were casting a variety of abilities including AE's, also while fighting sweepers, base-pop and each other. They were clustered tightly so all of the combat resolutions had to be done in a single server cell which is the most strenuous. Now we aren't saying "huzzah! It's cured!" because this is just a single test and as we've stated, isn't a silver bullet as there are plenty of other scenarios we still need testing on.

Do you get AP ticks from this district you had bots fighting in? I do notice if there is an opposing large group at say nikel, and we just enter tick range, that the game begins having some issues. Long before the two groups see each other.

I am far from a computer expert or anything of the sort, but just something I have noticed.

Have to agree with this. Fresh insight and perhaps really worth looking into.

Simple test would be a Cyrodiil campaign bereft of AP ticks and let's see if it lags still.

(But then, if no AP to be earned then nobody would want to fight there right? But I said, just to test this theory )

Gol Barr

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Population cap of a Campaign will be shared between the City, Sewers, Cyrodiil and Cyrodiil's caves. Access to IC is still under discussion but will be getting tested on PTS, starting with everyone getting access.

From an architecture standpoint, Cyrodiil, Imperial City, Sewers and the Caves are all seperate zones entirely. What goes on in one zone doesn't effect what occurs in another zone from a combat performance standpoint.

what if one zone becomes a CWC zerg fest?

Gol Barr

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

There are improvements being made to the LOS checks and AE abilities in general that should help with the performance issues we pointed out in the ESO PVP 2015 update thread. Also just watched 120 bots fighting each other in Imperial City in 1 district (with 3 other districts loaded with 120 bots too) and any abilities shot off just fine.

are these bots spamming one skill? defensive stance (multiple skills)? i.e. just pulsar and healing springs or the multiple skills through the fight?

Knootewoot

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Population cap of a Campaign will be shared between the City, Sewers, Cyrodiil and Cyrodiil's caves. Access to IC is still under discussion but will be getting tested on PTS, starting with everyone getting access.

From an architecture standpoint, Cyrodiil, Imperial City, Sewers and the Caves are all seperate zones entirely. What goes on in one zone doesn't effect what occurs in another zone from a combat performance standpoint.

Sometimes when I campaign is locked and I enter a cave/dungeon I cannot get out until there is room in the cyrodil campaign. Will this also happen to those poor souls who enter the sewers or dungeons in the IC?

Also you state 120 bots fighting = no lag. What about 500+ players like in the old days? Also, did the bots clutter and started spamming meteor, caltrops, healing springs, steel tornado, /flute and dawnbreakers?