If you don't want to balance CP ..

Attorneyatlawl

Garwulf wrote: »

Should have capped Champion points at no more than 2 a day unless you have excess enlightenment to discourage champion points grinding. In reality ZoS will need to nerf champion points in the future as the game becomes more and more unbalanced.
NB I have 197 champion points and never grind these days.

They already did. You get your first champion point of each day at four times the rate it takes to earn them otherwise when not enlightened. Make PVP, trials, and dungeons as good as mob grinding and the problem takes care of itself, for the most part, with potentially the raw stat modifier for spending any points needing to be lowered down. Your suggestion is akin to capping the number of AP we can earn. (shakes head)

Valnas

ap isn't a permanent stat buff, it's currency like gold. (shakes head) where do you come up with this garbage.

Morvul

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Morvul wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even 'fixing' the CP grind will still leave actual PvP players considerably weaker than Goblin grinding scrubs.

Errrrr.... no. If pvp gives XP that is just as good as I suggested along with trials and dungeons.... pvp'ing would be providing about the same rate of gain, no "considerably weaker" involved.

which still leaves the fact that somone who had a 6 month headsstart on CP-farming is ridiculously stronger then someone who just reached vet14 (with almost no CPs). So nobody in their right mind will actually start playing in a few months and the game will slowly wither away.

solution: stronger diminishing returns on the whole CP system.
(even if you believe your favourite chart demonstrates good diminishing returns already...)

I'm not honestly sure how much harsher a scaling you want to see than the math the chart shows. Did you read it, or just roll your eyes at it? In many of the passives you get just shy of half of the entire benefit of them from spending under a third of the points that it takes to max them. Most of the rest give a hair more than a 3/5ths benefit for the bonus by spending twice the points (15.4% regeneration, for example, vs. 25% at 50 points vs 100, which is a scant 9.6% regen for 50 points at that level).That is extremely harsh scaling and very bottom-heavy.

just for context: I'm used to the diminishing returns from EVE-online - where it's quite common to get ~80% of the benefit from investing ~33% of the effort (be that either time or money)...

ToRelax

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Let's take one of those "juicy" (quote-unquote) "ridiculously stronger" gains you get for playing for many months...

"The 25% increase in damage from light and heavy attacks is one of the least significant ones that appears to be good at first glance. Weaved weapon attacks account for around 10-14% of your singletarget damage in a raid situation and less in pvp since you can't stans belting them out like a turret (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't."

Are you opposed to gear? Because that's really all this amounts to except it doesn't take up all of your equipment slots and instead allows for an extra layer of addins vs. replacing what you already earned ad nauseum.

And I thought in PvE every little bit of damage counts...
Besides that, this is the PvP forum, and where this passive truly shines is in creating bursts with fully charged heavy attacks.
Very significant then - especially for DKs.

Also, last time I checked you didn't get more gear slots the more you play until you can equip them all. That's a very weird comparison.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Here's another one of the "ridiculously stronger" effects you get:

"The 25% boost to critical damage only affects the critical portion of the heal or attack, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't."

Get the facts, then decide. Objectively, it's extremely hard to argue that the champion system provides an incredible, insurmountable advantage with boosts like those in a game where great pvp'ers take out 5-10 people alone.The solution for those of us who love pvp is for ZOS to make PVP XP great for champion leveling just like pve mob grinding is. Trials and dungeons need to be buffed to that level, too.

Again, think of where this actually comes to use. We're in a very burst damage focused meta, crit damage is good because you often need to burst your opponent down in one go or he'll heal up to full within seconds. That passive increases the damage of a critical hit more than the minor berserk buff, wich is enough for some people to use a slot on their bar.

The system is flawed in that it 1. creates imbalances and 2. slowly turns us all into nearly invincible players with no weaknesses, not even able to kill each other. Fun PvP indeed.

Lava_Croft

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even 'fixing' the CP grind will still leave actual PvP players considerably weaker than Goblin grinding scrubs.

Errrrr.... no. If pvp gives XP that is just as good as I suggested along with trials and dungeons.... pvp'ing would be providing about the same rate of gain, no "considerably weaker" involved.

Someone who played PvP since the introduction of the Champion System will have a a lot less Champion Points to spend than soneone who spent that time grinding Goblins.

Attorneyatlawl

Valnas wrote: »

ap isn't a permanent stat buff, it's currency like gold. (shakes head) where do you come up with this garbage.

Oh so you're saying the assault and support lines don't exist. Alright then! . Those passives actually make a huge difference once you earn them .

@ToRelax, yes, this is indeed the PVP subforum. Was that in question? Your comparison of grim focus is completely inaccurate. That provides minor berserk which gives 8 percent on every attack, and 13.2 percent more for crit hits because it applies to the raw damage and Nightblades have a 60 percent critical amplifier . Minor berserk also can be slotted right alongside any champion passives in any case and provided to you by combat prayer from a group mate . If you watched the recent eso live, you'd know they are significantly raising ttk with the next patch, so burst becomes less important compared to strong sustain and timed burst to finish.

qsnoopyjr

They do balance CP.

It's called enlightenment.

I'm sure enlightenment works by getting people caught up with the average amount of CP.

Those who play more hours a day then the average...
Get rewarded by being above the average.
By being able to be above the average amount of CP..
Which is however high the enlightenment is right now.. I think its at 54 CP then you stop getting average/enlightenment.

The person who spends more time in the game then the average person..
Will always be better then the average person.
More you play the game. The better you get at it.
Play game less than others, expect to be less skilled and everything than the others.

Just like working out.
That guy that spends 4 hours in the gym working out all 4 hours.. Will be in better shape than the dude at the gym for 30 minutes working out for 30 minutes.

God says,
All men are created equal. So those who put the time in will be better than those who don't.

Bromburak

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

God says,
All men are created equal.

Oh thats why woman are being treated differently during that time.
Interesting definition of equal.

Ahzek

@Attorneyatlawl
It is true there are many not so usefull passives in the CS (health regen and potion effectiveness ? Really zos ? ) but the power if other stars is significantly higher. Especially damage type oriented passives are extremly potent 25% more fire damage on a DK ? (With the heavy attck increase you can actually build a heavy attack build for that with nice little 20k + fire staff attacks you can combine to a combo with detonation and a dawnbreaker).
And taking 25% less damage from a crystal frag/ dawnbreaker/ soul assault ... Seems also quite strong to me.

Then we have the attribute gain to consider, wich is just broken beyond believe and basically makes every ~150 CP equivalent to 3 set boni adding stam/hp/mag. And these dont really have any diminshing returns at all as far as i am aware.

Another important part of the the power gap between Players are the unlockable passives. For PvE for example arcane well can provide your group with so much magicka that you can just keep going and going with your sustain increasing the more enemies you fight/kill ( leaderboard advantage very much ?). Unchained/Tactican/11k dmg shield on block are all incredibly gamechanging to the way a build can operate during battle as they provide additional sources of sutain cc or defense that would otherwise not be available and that can shape the way a fight plays out drastically even if the other player is only several CP behind.

And then we come to another core problem of the diminishing returns the championsystem provides.
With more CP you can also benefit from these more easily so can a player with 60 CP get himself 10 points into magic and 10 points into elemental resitance while a player with just 30 more can get several more %ages from other damage reduction passives making him overall way more tanky. This disparity only widens as the CP gap widens.

And finally the worst offender for me are the sustain Stars wich basically after a certain point make resource management obsolete. At the moment i am using 5 pieces magnus just for that extra bit of magicka sustain with 180 CP more than me (wich a lot of players have, 220 here atm) this would be completly unessecary and open up another slot for a set item maybe an undaunted part or i can scrap magnus alltogether for MK and even more damage.
And this is not restricted to our primary resource,whatever that may be. Instead stamina management is entirely unessecary on almost any magicka build as soon as it has a decent chunk of CP in elusive and a few in mooncalf.

In the end players with more CP do not only get a great deal of more raw power in stats (the progression after investing several CP in one star is almost linear btw) but they are also able to distribute their CP much more versatile and can basically make entire aspects of gameplay obsolete after reaching a certain amount.

Ahzek

@qsnoopyjr
Please educate yourself at least a tiny bit on the subject before posting....
Everyone gets enlightenment worth one CP per day (this can stack up to 12 days unused enlightenment).
It has NOTHING to do with the average amount of CP on the server and even those with 1000 CP still get enlightenment worth one every day.

If the average of current CP would in fact be around the 50 range i wonder what happenend to all those accounts with 70 CP headstart from having a V14 when the CS released and who (if they didnt quit) have all earned more CP in the meantime, most probably sitting around 150-200 at least if they earned ~1CP a day.

Erock25

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl How many CP you have?

I'd have to guess probably less than you. I've never even been in to grind those goblins you keep going on about . I also would have to guess that, for whatever reason, you are extremely and unusually interested in my champion point total, given that you've followed around and even flamed various threads to prod about it. I've actually said how many I have before on the forums, let alone in game, even. Instead of replying to every post I make about the champion system within minutes... just do a forum search. Believe it or not, it is possible for people to have an opinion that doesn't match your own. Do you have any thoughts as to the actual discussion? I've written quite a lot of ideas for balancing it out. Your turn.

I have never even mentioned goblin cave nor have I ever been there and the only time I hate on you is when you start talking crazy about sorc. So yeah, not sure who you think I am but why don't you just tell me how many CP you have instead of getting all uppity?

No mistake made... you're the same poster that has been popping up in most champion point threads and inquiring random things such as that if I make any comment, then making strange claims of me being some hardcore grinder bragging and trying to preserve some mythical advantage by defending the champion point system. Here's one of your posts:

Erock25 wrote: »

Love this non stop grinder who brags endlessly about his stack of 200 xp pots is telling us cp system is balanced. Seen it on the forums and in stormhaven zone chat. I get it that you are grinding your eyes out and you're terrified of losing your advantage. It's a little sad that you make a topic per day though trying to convince people that the cp system isn't going to cause game breaking imbalances.

I have no pressing desire to engage in conversation with that. I have posted quite a few constructive ideas to help balance the champion system better. I welcome your thoughts.

@Attorneyatlawl Yeah but how many CP do you have?

ToRelax

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Valnas wrote: »

ap isn't a permanent stat buff, it's currency like gold. (shakes head) where do you come up with this garbage.

Oh so you're saying the assault and support lines don't exist. Alright then! . Those passives actually make a huge difference once you earn them .

ToRelax, yes, this is indeed the PVP subforum. Was that in question? Your comparison of grim focus is completely inaccurate. That provides minor berserk which gives 8 percent on every attack, and 13.2 percent more for crit hits because it applies to the raw damage and Nightblades have a 60 percent critical amplifier . Minor berserk also can be slotted right alongside any champion passives in any case and provided to you by combat prayer from a group mate . If you watched the recent eso live, you'd know they are significantly raising ttk with the next patch, so burst becomes less important compared to strong sustain and timed burst to finish.

I used that as an example to show that the mentioned passive is an important factor in some burst builds, after the diminishing returns in your main damage passive kick in (and you have at least the 12% crit in case you're a stamina build) it's not a bad idea investing some cp into crit damage.
And when your main damage passive is maxed out, then the crit damage just becomes even more potent.

What was that about minor berserk though? You said yourself it applies to raw damage, thus adding 8% in any event - be that more damage because of a crit or not, why not compare that to another overall ~8% damage increase?
The only passive that I can see being relevant for this is the last one in assassination, granting 10% critical damage.
Apply that if you want, the difference won't be great anyway.
The extra critical chance NBs get would only make the cp passive more potent in relation.

Nallenil

Since CP is account bound, could we also see how much CP people who post on forums have. High CP people will defend it, low CP people will attack it. Smart Unbiased people know that the CP system is wrong no matter how much CP they got.

Attorneyatlawl

Nallenil wrote: »

Since CP is account bound, could we also see how much CP people who post on forums have. High CP people will defend it, low CP people will attack it. Smart Unbiased people know that the CP system is wrong no matter how much CP they got.

In your opinion, perhaps. However, that's not the case in reality. "Smart unbiased people" do the math and understand that this is an MMORPG, and the power gains earned by players are just that: earned. Balance the XP across everything mostly, and you have a system meeting the original design intent which was to provide progression for doing what you find fun.

I also hadn't noticed much support for forcibly showing everyone's characters, skills, equipment, etc. on the forums in the past, when I had seen it suggested once *shrug*. I'd be interested in seeing the results of a thread if you have made one though for your idea?

There's a lot of ongoing discussion about the facts instead of hyperbole in other threads, if you're interested in it. The general consensus I'm seeing between in-game channels, reddit, and the forums is that the flat stat percentage boost may need to be taken downward, but that the passives are well off assuming XP parity is brought about and grinding doesn't remain the only way to earn champion ranks quickly.

Maulkin

I can't understand people who say there are no flaws with the CP system. There are many obvious ones to me.

1. There is no cap, there is no choice. You can acquire everything. That's a major flaw for me. You can only have like 10 skills on your bar from the 60+ skills you unlock, but you can have all the passives without having to make a sacrifice of leaving something out. Your only choice is what to level 1st.

This might seem trivial now, but with some people having already acquired over 1k CPs in the 5 months this has been out, those guys will be fully maxed by this time next year.

2. The returns are not diminishing enough. They are diminishing, just not enough. Testing on PTS, every 400 CPs I allocated made the content more and more trivial and hugely increased my power against other players. Sure the last batch (3.2k-3.6k) made smaller difference, but it still did. In the first 2k points the difference is huge.

3. There is no transparency and no classification based on CP level. In the same way there is a non-vet campaign there'll have to be a way to split the people of 1k CPs from those with 1 CP to maintain some balance.

Similarly, in PvE, you'll need trials/dungeons with different level of difficulty and different rewards scaled on the CP level of the participants. Currently veteran rank is what the difficulty scales on, but the power gap of 500 CPs is much bigger than that given by 4-5 vet levels. So the scaling system (implemented only a few months back) is already outdated as it does not take CPs into account

=============

The above were all issues that were foreseen from beta but people said "It's not gonna matter for years, they have time to sort it out". Well they were wrong.

Even in a few months it has created imbalances and the devs need to act sooner rather than later on it.

Let's hope for the next update to bring changes on the CS front. Including Syphers suggestion of a visible rank/level.

Ezareth

This is turning into a Rich versus the Poor argument. /boggle

Attorneyatlawl

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even 'fixing' the CP grind will still leave actual PvP players considerably weaker than Goblin grinding scrubs.

Errrrr.... no. If pvp gives XP that is just as good as I suggested along with trials and dungeons.... pvp'ing would be providing about the same rate of gain, no "considerably weaker" involved.

Someone who played PvP since the introduction of the Champion System will have a a lot less Champion Points to spend than soneone who spent that time grinding Goblins.

Yep. That's why I've harped about needing XP parity between pve and pvp, for several months at this point. Instead of complaining about the guys out grinding pve mobs, how about supporting the idea of making PVP rewarding?

Ezareth wrote: »

This is turning into a Rich versus the Poor argument. /boggle

I hear the same argument on some news networks... it's absurd, just as it is there . It's merit-based just as earning money is in real life. Founded a major software company that improved and impacted most people's everyday lives, and was useful enough that millions upon millions of people felt compelled to thank you by buying your stuff? You're rich! Sweep the floors at an office building? It's a stepping stone... if you're looking to make more money, then it shouldn't be your life's aspiration.

RoamingRiverElk

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I can't understand people who say there are no flaws with the CP system. There are many obvious ones to me.

1. There is no cap, there is no choice. You can acquire everything. That's a major flaw for me. You can only have like 10 skills on your bar from the 60+ skills you unlock, but you can have all the passives without having to make a sacrifice of leaving something out. Your only choice is what to level 1st.

This might seem trivial now, but with some people having already acquired over 1k CPs in the 5 months this has been out, those guys will be fully maxed by this time next year.

2. The returns are not diminishing enough. They are diminishing, just not enough. Testing on PTS, every 400 CPs I allocated made the content more and more trivial and hugely increased my power against other players. Sure the last batch (3.2k-3.6k) made smaller difference, but it still did. In the first 2k points the difference is huge.

3. There is no transparency and no classification based on CP level. In the same way there is a non-vet campaign there'll have to be a way to split the people of 1k CPs from those with 1 CP to maintain some balance.

Similarly, in PvE, you'll need trials/dungeons with different level of difficulty and different rewards scaled on the CP level of the participants. Currently veteran rank is what the difficulty scales on, but the power gap of 500 CPs is much bigger than that given by 4-5 vet levels. So the scaling system (implemented only a few months back) is already outdated as it does not take CPs into account

=============

The above were all issues that were foreseen from beta but people said "It's not gonna matter for years, they have time to sort it out". Well they were wrong.

Even in a few months it has created imbalances and the devs need to act sooner rather than later on it.

Let's hope for the next update to bring changes on the CS front. Including Syphers suggestion of a visible rank/level.

Agree with all of this, AND there's ALSO the matter that people will be doing PvP with truly infinite resources, if the CP system isn't changed.