If you don't want to balance CP ..

Septimus_Magna

I think the CP gain should be limited per season/time period or something.
Yesterday a guild mate told me a guy from Baby Face Bananas has reached 1000 CPs.
The difference of people who live in Cragwood Cave and regular people who play 4 hours a day will only get bigger.

The way grinding is rewarded is just insane, this is bad for the game and this should be adjusted.
A possible solution could the reduction of the effectiveness of the CPs in the Cyrodiil Battle buff.
I dont mind the benefit players get from CPs when they do pve but dont let this ruin pvp.

JaJaLuka

There are a few things about CP that would be nice to see, probably the first is making them only able to be spent on any character when you finally hit veteran ranks. That's because in Blackwater Blade, the new players are at a huge disadvantage already due to inexperience, the CP could still be there for that character, just not usable until Vet 1.
Second I agree that they should be visible, but I don't think it's as necessary as some other changes. You will either win or lose and people simply need the patience to take it with good grace.
Don't get me wrong, I have taken loss badly before and I certainly agree that there is a balancing issue when it comes to CP. I also find the CP system a bit of a mess when it comes to design. For example it would be much more balanced if people had a much more limiting number of CP that they could possibly earn and never enough to fill all of the points, or only a certain number of the CP trees that could be opened up. It creates much more specific builds and less imbalance. However the way that the CPs are spread about the trees would need adjusting to cater for the PvE players and making their builds possible and fun.

Alcast

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I think the CP gain should be limited per season/time period or something.
Yesterday a guild mate told me a guy from Baby Face Bananas has reached 1000 CPs.
The difference of people who live in Cragwood Cave and regular people who play 4 hours a day will only get bigger.

The way grinding is rewarded is just insane, this is bad for the game and this should be adjusted.
A possible solution could the reduction of the effectiveness of the CPs in the Cyrodiil Battle buff.
I dont mind the benefit players get from CPs when they do pve but dont let this ruin pvp.

ZOS system is completely ***...it favour bots and grinders...AND it hinders ppl on doing real PvE like dungeons/trials/arena...OR PvP....

If they dont find a solution in approx 6 months, ppl will start ragequitting bc they dont stand a chance vs a dude with 2k CP.

Psilent

!

Rook_Master

CP Rank should show up in Nameplates and in Death Recap.

Erock25

CP rank will never be displayed outside of possibly death recaps because pve players will bust a nut if they get excluded from things because of insufficient cp rank.

krim

It feels good when your right.

Erock25

krim wrote: »

It feels good when your right.

Your right what?

Rust_in_Peace

I've stopped playing until they fix the game.

CP is a fun idea if it lets players customize their build.

CP is a bad idea when it's jut an endless grind that favors time/money sink.

Attorneyatlawl

Valnas wrote: »

I'll rephrase

the developers have embraced a game model called buy 2 play

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Valnas wrote: »

cp's have a financial imperative, not a balancing one

It really doesn't, actually. The in-game XP potions are very, very inexpensive for anyone who isn't a new player, or doesn't play an hour a week to login and feed their horses. They're cheap enough that you quite literally can pay for them just by using them with the vendor drops earned while one is active (50 minutes). The reason people play with them active in PVE and not PVP is because the experience gain in Cyrodiil is extremely, out-of-line, low. A lot of players have them on when questing or doing dungeons, and Veteran Dragonstar Arena, though, because it's worth using them with their low cost to get the extra gains.

Ok, i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. If you don't think: nerfing all the grinds in game, and then implementing a gold mat or crown way to increase advancement, wasn't a huge time/money sink in liue of content (things we actually want to pay for), you've drank too much kool aid.

The problem with your statement is that the crown store booster has a readily available and inexpensive in game version available anyways. I don't think anyone who's sane could debate whether the cp system was, in part although meant s a long term thing too, a bridge to help until the consoles hit and new patches with zones and minigames to buy came along. I've written t length about that topic myself. I also, even in the very same post you quoted, think it's ridiculous that mob grinding is the only good way to level champion points right now. I don't grind very much, myself, though I have leveled a couple of alts in preparation for the imperial city, and because pvp XP is so horrifically low it felt like a waste in some ways to do that instead of getting the alts set up that I wanted anyway and earning cp.

Money isn't involved, though, in any case.90% of the psijic ambrosia I've hoarded, was obtained for when they inevitably fix other XP sources to be good like grinding is, and it ends up making sense to use the, in pvp, the gameplay I enjoy by far the most. Zero dollars are involved though, and I am boggled as to a handful of people who insist that it's impossible to think the champion system's a good idea unless they're grinding 20 hours a day. I don't even average one hour of grinding a day by a long shot. The only two major problems with the champion system as a whole are XP parity as I keep harping on (for some reason, t keeps being complained about that grinding is the "good way" to earn champ XP, yet no one ever seems to notice when the same post provides a solution as a suggestion, aka making everything else as good), and the overall power scale from it my need to be chopped down on a global amount depending on how things play out.

Erock25

@Attorneyatlawl How many CP you have?

Attorneyatlawl

Erock25 wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl How many CP you have?

I'd have to guess probably less than you. I've never even been in to grind those goblins you keep going on about . I also would have to guess that, for whatever reason, you are extremely and unusually interested in my champion point total, given that you've followed around and even flamed various threads to prod about it. I've actually said how many I have before on the forums, let alone in game, even. Instead of replying to every post I make about the champion system within minutes... just do a forum search. Believe it or not, it is possible for people to have an opinion that doesn't match your own. Do you have any thoughts as to the actual discussion? I've written quite a lot of ideas for balancing it out. Your turn.

Erock25

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl How many CP you have?

I'd have to guess probably less than you. I've never even been in to grind those goblins you keep going on about . I also would have to guess that, for whatever reason, you are extremely and unusually interested in my champion point total, given that you've followed around and even flamed various threads to prod about it. I've actually said how many I have before on the forums, let alone in game, even. Instead of replying to every post I make about the champion system within minutes... just do a forum search. Believe it or not, it is possible for people to have an opinion that doesn't match your own. Do you have any thoughts as to the actual discussion? I've written quite a lot of ideas for balancing it out. Your turn.

I have never even mentioned goblin cave nor have I ever been there and the only time I hate on you is when you start talking crazy about sorc. So yeah, not sure who you think I am but why don't you just tell me how many CP you have instead of getting all uppity?

skillastat

Sypher wrote: »

The issue is there is no true way to "balance" it. The system is flawed, you can't have true competitive PvP with endless progression

Make a CP cap of 1200. Then you'll still have build diversity while allowing for people to feel "kinda" progressing even at max level.

I don't get why everyone are allowed to have all 36 stars maximized at 100. Let the builds have diversity with a CP cap of 1200. So if you have the maximum amount and want to spend a lot into some stars, you can't spend into others.

CP cap of 1200 and also with the idea of seeing how many CP one have, it could be the solution in my honest opinion.

BigTone wrote: »

#buffpvpxp

Although this would encourage more guilds using tower/bridge/outpost farms, that requires some skill and can be squashed by a good group of players. Grinding zombs requires zero skill and should not be rewarded. Put more xp into actually pvping and you encourage more pvp population and encourage people earning their CP.

yes and also this

EDIT: All merged into one post

skillastat

EDIT: All merged into one post

ToRelax

skillastatb16_ESO wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

The issue is there is no true way to "balance" it. The system is flawed, you can't have true competitive PvP with endless progression

Make a CP cap of 1200. Then you'll still have build diversity while allowing for people to feel "kinda" progressing even at max level.

I don't get why everyone are allowed to have all 36 stars maximized at 100. Let the builds have diversity with a CP cap of 1200. So if you have the maximum amount and want to spend a lot into some stars, you can't spend into others.

CP cap of 1200 and also with the idea of seeing how many CP one have, it could be the solution in my honest opinion.

BigTone wrote: »

#buffpvpxp

Although this would encourage more guilds using tower/bridge/outpost farms, that requires some skill and can be squashed by a good group of players. Grinding zombs requires zero skill and should not be rewarded. Put more xp into actually pvping and you encourage more pvp population and encourage people earning their CP.

yes and also this

EDIT: All merged into one post

1200 is very high though, you have most of the benefits by then. So the system would still have to be balanced so that you already have most of the benefits at ~400 cp, but in a way that gaining more will add significantly less benefit than now, not increasing the buffs at lower ranks.

Soulac

Just increase the diminishing returns by.. a lot.

ToRelax

Soulac wrote: »

Just increase the diminishing returns by.. a lot.

It comes down to this as the core problem, yes.

krim

Erock25 wrote: »

krim wrote: »

It feels good when your right.

Your right what?

hah!

Valnas

i think they should just add things that are once a day and give large amounts of advancement.

if they made the keep/resource/scout quest's 1 a day, but worth 5x their current x values for instance.

Make the pledge for undaunted, dsa completion, trial completion, all give lots of xp (once).



This discourages cave grinding while not removing it as an option, it rewards ppl for playing the game, and it creates a natural reason to want to group up and be social as opposed to nose down dps in a ring around the posy.

The pvp quest objective's being desirable (and non repeateable) should encourage ppl to go to cyro for an hour or two a night, complete a few objectives and feel rewarded as opposed to find the swords and zerg.

Ezareth

Valnas wrote: »

i think they should just add things that are once a day and give large amounts of advancement.

if they made the keep/resource/scout quest's 1 a day, but worth 5x their current x values for instance.

Make the pledge for undaunted, dsa completion, trial completion, all give lots of xp (once).



This discourages cave grinding while not removing it as an option, it rewards ppl for playing the game, and it creates a natural reason to want to group up and be social as opposed to nose down dps in a ring around the posy.

The pvp quest objective's being desirable (and non repeateable) should encourage ppl to go to cyro for an hour or two a night, complete a few objectives and feel rewarded as opposed to find the swords and zerg.

I think this will still create a barrier of entry for newer players. Who would want to start playing PvP when they just start the game after getting to the end of the VR grind and realizing their is a grind beyond that that other players are already 5 months into already?

I think the stat point reward for CPs needs to be completely removed and we can balance further from there.

Getting a .2% increase to all of my damage for a quick 1-hour (or less for most people) grind is significant unto itself.

Valnas

I'm down for a huge diminishing return on gains at the top and increase on the bottom coupled but, i just would like to see the game be fun to play again, .

Ezareth wrote: »

Valnas wrote: »

i think they should just add things that are once a day and give large amounts of advancement.

if they made the keep/resource/scout quest's 1 a day, but worth 5x their current x values for instance.

Make the pledge for undaunted, dsa completion, trial completion, all give lots of xp (once).



This discourages cave grinding while not removing it as an option, it rewards ppl for playing the game, and it creates a natural reason to want to group up and be social as opposed to nose down dps in a ring around the posy.

The pvp quest objective's being desirable (and non repeateable) should encourage ppl to go to cyro for an hour or two a night, complete a few objectives and feel rewarded as opposed to find the swords and zerg.

I think this will still create a barrier of entry for newer players. Who would want to start playing PvP when they just start the game after getting to the end of the VR grind and realizing their is a grind beyond that that other players are already 5 months into already?

I think the stat point reward for CPs needs to be completely removed and we can balance further from there.

Getting a .2% increase to all of my damage for a quick 1-hour (or less for most people) grind is significant unto itself.

I just want the game to be rewarding, or even comprable to cave grinding. It's toxic for the community to have to choose between playing the game and advancement when the advancement path is endless.

Ezareth

Valnas wrote: »

I'm down for a huge diminishing return on gains at the top and increase on the bottom coupled but, i just would like to see the game be fun to play again, .

Ezareth wrote: »

Valnas wrote: »

i think they should just add things that are once a day and give large amounts of advancement.

if they made the keep/resource/scout quest's 1 a day, but worth 5x their current x values for instance.

Make the pledge for undaunted, dsa completion, trial completion, all give lots of xp (once).



This discourages cave grinding while not removing it as an option, it rewards ppl for playing the game, and it creates a natural reason to want to group up and be social as opposed to nose down dps in a ring around the posy.

The pvp quest objective's being desirable (and non repeateable) should encourage ppl to go to cyro for an hour or two a night, complete a few objectives and feel rewarded as opposed to find the swords and zerg.

I think this will still create a barrier of entry for newer players. Who would want to start playing PvP when they just start the game after getting to the end of the VR grind and realizing their is a grind beyond that that other players are already 5 months into already?

I think the stat point reward for CPs needs to be completely removed and we can balance further from there.

Getting a .2% increase to all of my damage for a quick 1-hour (or less for most people) grind is significant unto itself.

I just want the game to be rewarding, or even comprable to cave grinding. It's toxic for the community to have to choose between playing the game and advancement when the advancement path is endless.

Yeah the only solution to this I think if they're determined to keep the CP system in tact is creating BWB versions of Cyrodiil for CPs. Make a 100-600 CP Vet a 600-1200 CP Vet and a 1200+ Vet campaign or something along those lines.

This will remove the desire for most people to grind CP as they don't have to worry about being totally demolished by someone with 1000 more CP than them. Once you hit 1200/1500 CP the difference is marginal for everything beyond that.

k2blader

Valnas wrote: »

The pvp quest objective's being desirable (and non repeateable) should encourage ppl to go to cyro for an hour or two a night, complete a few objectives and feel rewarded as opposed to find the swords and zerg.

I guess I'm a weirdo and because I only want to PvP that kind of change would make me quit the game entirely. I'll take "finding swords" over PvE any day..

Attorneyatlawl

Erock25 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

@Attorneyatlawl How many CP you have?

I'd have to guess probably less than you. I've never even been in to grind those goblins you keep going on about . I also would have to guess that, for whatever reason, you are extremely and unusually interested in my champion point total, given that you've followed around and even flamed various threads to prod about it. I've actually said how many I have before on the forums, let alone in game, even. Instead of replying to every post I make about the champion system within minutes... just do a forum search. Believe it or not, it is possible for people to have an opinion that doesn't match your own. Do you have any thoughts as to the actual discussion? I've written quite a lot of ideas for balancing it out. Your turn.

I have never even mentioned goblin cave nor have I ever been there and the only time I hate on you is when you start talking crazy about sorc. So yeah, not sure who you think I am but why don't you just tell me how many CP you have instead of getting all uppity?

No mistake made... you're the same poster that has been popping up in most champion point threads and inquiring random things such as that if I make any comment, then making strange claims of me being some hardcore grinder bragging and trying to preserve some mythical advantage by defending the champion point system. Here's one of your posts:

Erock25 wrote: »

Love this non stop grinder who brags endlessly about his stack of 200 xp pots is telling us cp system is balanced. Seen it on the forums and in stormhaven zone chat. I get it that you are grinding your eyes out and you're terrified of losing your advantage. It's a little sad that you make a topic per day though trying to convince people that the cp system isn't going to cause game breaking imbalances.

I have no pressing desire to engage in conversation with that. I have posted quite a few constructive ideas to help balance the champion system better. I welcome your thoughts.

Alcast wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I think the CP gain should be limited per season/time period or something.
Yesterday a guild mate told me a guy from Baby Face Bananas has reached 1000 CPs.
The difference of people who live in Cragwood Cave and regular people who play 4 hours a day will only get bigger.

The way grinding is rewarded is just insane, this is bad for the game and this should be adjusted.
A possible solution could the reduction of the effectiveness of the CPs in the Cyrodiil Battle buff.
I dont mind the benefit players get from CPs when they do pve but dont let this ruin pvp.

ZOS system is completely ***...it favour bots and grinders...AND it hinders ppl on doing real PvE like dungeons/trials/arena...OR PvP....

If they dont find a solution in approx 6 months, ppl will start ragequitting bc they dont stand a chance vs a dude with 2k CP.

Been saying that for months. Every other major game activity needs to be brought up to good XP comparable to grinding. Pvp should give great champ XP. So should trials and arenas.

Lava_Croft

Even 'fixing' the CP grind will still leave actual PvP players considerably weaker than Goblin grinding scrubs.

Attorneyatlawl

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even 'fixing' the CP grind will still leave actual PvP players considerably weaker than Goblin grinding scrubs.

Errrrr.... no. If pvp gives XP that is just as good as I suggested along with trials and dungeons.... pvp'ing would be providing about the same rate of gain, no "considerably weaker" involved.

Garwulf

Should have capped Champion points at no more than 2 a day unless you have excess enlightenment to discourage champion points grinding. In reality ZoS will need to nerf champion points in the future as the game becomes more and more unbalanced.
NB I have 197 champion points and never grind these days.

Morvul

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even 'fixing' the CP grind will still leave actual PvP players considerably weaker than Goblin grinding scrubs.

Errrrr.... no. If pvp gives XP that is just as good as I suggested along with trials and dungeons.... pvp'ing would be providing about the same rate of gain, no "considerably weaker" involved.

which still leaves the fact that somone who had a 6 month headsstart on CP-farming is ridiculously stronger then someone who just reached vet14 (with almost no CPs). So nobody in their right mind will actually start playing in a few months and the game will slowly wither away.

solution: stronger diminishing returns on the whole CP system.
(even if you believe your favourite chart demonstrates good diminishing returns already...)

Attorneyatlawl

Morvul wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Even 'fixing' the CP grind will still leave actual PvP players considerably weaker than Goblin grinding scrubs.

Errrrr.... no. If pvp gives XP that is just as good as I suggested along with trials and dungeons.... pvp'ing would be providing about the same rate of gain, no "considerably weaker" involved.

which still leaves the fact that somone who had a 6 month headsstart on CP-farming is ridiculously stronger then someone who just reached vet14 (with almost no CPs). So nobody in their right mind will actually start playing in a few months and the game will slowly wither away.

solution: stronger diminishing returns on the whole CP system.
(even if you believe your favourite chart demonstrates good diminishing returns already...)

It does. Also, getting to VR14 leaves you on a fresh account with your first character at around 50-60 champion points, typically, between the auto-granted 12 levels of enlightenment and the 13 million XP you need to earn to hit VR14 (with extra enligthened levels hitting in the meantime). And most of the passives aren't as strong as they look when you do the math, either .

I'm not honestly sure how much harsher a scaling you want to see than the math the chart shows. Did you read it, or just roll your eyes at it? In many of the passives you get just shy of half of the entire benefit of them from spending under a third of the points that it takes to max them. Most of the rest give a hair more than a 3/5ths benefit for the bonus by spending twice the points (15.4% regeneration, for example, vs. 25% at 50 points vs 100, which is a scant 9.6% regen for 50 points at that level).That is extremely harsh scaling and very bottom-heavy.

Unless you're completely against progression of any kind in an MMORPG, a genre centered around and made for progression... I just don't see your point, honestly.

Let's take one of those "juicy" (quote-unquote) "ridiculously stronger" gains you get for playing for many months...

"The 25% increase in damage from light and heavy attacks is one of the least significant ones that appears to be good at first glance. Weaved weapon attacks account for around 10-14% of your singletarget damage in a raid situation and less in pvp since you can't stans belting them out like a turret (not aoe since you can only hit one target with them), so raising them by 25% only adds in the neighborhood of 3-4% damage to one target. Sounds big but isn't."

Are you opposed to gear? Because that's really all this amounts to except it doesn't take up all of your equipment slots and instead allows for an extra layer of addins vs. replacing what you already earned ad nauseum.

Here's another one of the "ridiculously stronger" effects you get:

"The 25% boost to critical damage only affects the critical portion of the heal or attack, not the base hit amount. If you hit for 5200 damage and crit normally you hit for 50% more damage (60% on nightblades). That portion is increased, not the 5200. Taking that same hit with a 50% amplifier as typical, you would hit for 7800 without this passive, and ((2600 x 1.25) + 5200) = 8450 with the full one hundred points invested. Most builds carry a forty to fifty percent spell crit rate and fifty to sixty percent physical one for stamina. This totals to a gain of 8.33% on only critical hits, which are around half of your hits, for a total gain of about 4.166%. Another one that sounds enormous but isn't."

Get the facts, then decide. Objectively, it's extremely hard to argue that the champion system provides an incredible, insurmountable advantage with boosts like those in a game where great pvp'ers take out 5-10 people alone.The solution for those of us who love pvp is for ZOS to make PVP XP great for champion leveling just like pve mob grinding is. Trials and dungeons need to be buffed to that level, too.