If you don't want to balance CP ..

Sypher

Make CP rank visible.

Example:
Sypher Ali (Vet 14: 303 CP)

I'd like to know when I'm going against people with 30 CP or 1000 CP.

TheBull

I'd rather not know

I understand what some of you are going through though. I ran with a guy, Fysh, who couldn't stop thinking about CPs. Fysh missed the bonus so he figured everyone had more than him. It ate at him. Funny thing is I watched Fysh get better and better. Whatever the number was he had no problem beating it, yet still all he thought about was CPs.

RoamingRiverElk

Agree... Would also be nice to have it on the death recap.
Here's what some people had to say about it back in February on the PTS forum: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153130/show-champion-points-next-to-rank

Publius_Scipio

Question I have is how do you "balance" champion points? It is just a pool of points earned that people can place however they like. So if ZOS were to just throw everyone 3600 champ points right off the bat it would be balanced right?

How do you balance the Champion Point System itself?

An idea I had was create more campaigns that are based off different levels of champ points. Something similar to non vet campaign in a way. 1-100 CP is a campaign, 101-200, etc.

The problem with my idea is that I see a bunch of very empty campaigns.

Sypher

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Question I have is how do you "balance" champion points? It is just a pool of points earned that people can place however they like. So if ZOS were to just throw everyone 3600 champ points right off the bat it would be balanced right?

How do you balance the Champion Point System itself?

The issue is there is no true way to "balance" it. The system is flawed, you can't have true competitive PvP with endless progression, I've sorta accepted the fact that the PvP is meant for casual play style and not meant to be competitive/pro, I at least want to know the CP of the players I face.

Back then, a v14, was just that, a v14. They had access to pretty much all the things you had access to and it didn't take much to obtain what was needed to be competitive. Now the entire system is revolved around a time/money sink (xp grinding + xp potions) and players are rewarded for killing zombies and drinking xp pots.

This doesn't just affect PvP. Even though I don't care for PvE, eventually, the leaderboards will be dominated by players who have a high CP value. OFCOURSE skill comes into play, I am very aware of that. But EQUAL SKILL + Statistical Advantage throws the balance off completely.

There are so many threads regarding how CP is making things unbalanced, let's not focus on that for this thread. I just want this system to be transparent (not completely, as in I don't want to know where you spent your points) I just want to know how many you've spent.

(This would also help in organized PvP events, *which we can control* to maybe have CP divisions/limits for tournaments and organized fights)

Radolfus

Some of my friends and I have been thinking about capping 360 Champion Points while inside PVP. Its not a lot of points neither is it too low. I can see how this will cause the people who grinded for 600 cp to riot though...

RoamingRiverElk

Radolfus wrote: »

Some of my friends and I have been thinking about capping 360 Champion Points while inside PVP. Its not a lot of points neither is it too low. I can see how this will cause the people who grinded for 600 cp to riot though...

I'd cap it in PvP around there too... I've been saying 330 but I suppose 360 isn't too far from that. ^^ It's better to enable some CP in PvP so people can have more variety in builds. But they still have to make at least some sacrifices, can't just have tons of resistances, damage, and resources.

Attorneyatlawl

Sypher wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Question I have is how do you "balance" champion points? It is just a pool of points earned that people can place however they like. So if ZOS were to just throw everyone 3600 champ points right off the bat it would be balanced right?

How do you balance the Champion Point System itself?

The issue is there is no true way to "balance" it. The system is flawed, you can't have true competitive PvP with endless progression, I've sorta accepted the fact that the PvP is meant for casual play style and not meant to be competitive/pro, I at least want to know the CP of the players I face.

Back then, a v14, was just that, a v14. They had access to pretty much all the things you had access to and it didn't take much to obtain what was needed to be competitive. Now the entire system is revolved around a time/money sink (xp grinding + xp potions) and players are rewarded for killing zombies and drinking xp pots.

This doesn't just affect PvP. Even though I don't care for PvE, eventually, the leaderboards will be dominated by players who have a high CP value. OFCOURSE skill comes into play, I am very aware of that. But EQUAL SKILL + Statistical Advantage throws the balance off completely.

There are so many threads regarding how CP is making things unbalanced, let's not focus on that for this thread. I just want this system to be transparent (not completely, as in I don't want to know where you spent your points) I just want to know how many you've spent.

(This would also help in organized PvP events, *which we can control* to maybe have CP divisions/limits for tournaments and organized fights)

XP parity is the issue here, not the system itself. I've said this time and again. Before, in PvP @Sypher, v14 was the cap. It was clearly defined and fairly easy to reach. The horrific XP gains you made in PVP didn't really matter much, since you could spend a couple of days and be done with it in PVE-land. The real contention, in my opinion, arises from PVP giving a tiny fraction of the experience gain that PVE activity does, including grinding which is currently by far and away the most effective way, but even PVE questing is far faster.

Balance out the XP gains across the game better, making PVP on an average 1 hour session grant around (action varies, as is the nature of PVP) the same XP as an average 1 hour session of pve mob grinding... and suddenly, the issue isn't that someone "could" have a higher level than you. It's what you have earned or not by PVP'ing. Then, if the power gap eventually plays out to generally be too big, that can be adjusted.

@Publius_Scipio , the answer is, you don't. You balance it so that people have the same general ability to earn those champion points in the first place. Then, if the amount of power they grant proves too much, you adjust that. Simply nerfing champion points is like a business meeting where the executives are saying, "We're spending too much money!" and jumping straight to "We need to earn more! Let's raise prices and stop spending anything entirely!" instead of "How can we reduce our operating costs?" first.

ToRelax

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Question I have is how do you "balance" champion points? It is just a pool of points earned that people can place however they like. So if ZOS were to just throw everyone 3600 champ points right off the bat it would be balanced right?

How do you balance the Champion Point System itself?

The issue is there is no true way to "balance" it. The system is flawed, you can't have true competitive PvP with endless progression, I've sorta accepted the fact that the PvP is meant for casual play style and not meant to be competitive/pro, I at least want to know the CP of the players I face.

Back then, a v14, was just that, a v14. They had access to pretty much all the things you had access to and it didn't take much to obtain what was needed to be competitive. Now the entire system is revolved around a time/money sink (xp grinding + xp potions) and players are rewarded for killing zombies and drinking xp pots.

This doesn't just affect PvP. Even though I don't care for PvE, eventually, the leaderboards will be dominated by players who have a high CP value. OFCOURSE skill comes into play, I am very aware of that. But EQUAL SKILL + Statistical Advantage throws the balance off completely.

There are so many threads regarding how CP is making things unbalanced, let's not focus on that for this thread. I just want this system to be transparent (not completely, as in I don't want to know where you spent your points) I just want to know how many you've spent.

(This would also help in organized PvP events, *which we can control* to maybe have CP divisions/limits for tournaments and organized fights)

XP parity is the issue here, not the system itself. I've said this time and again. Before, in PvP @Sypher, v14 was the cap. It was clearly defined and fairly easy to reach. The horrific XP gains you made in PVP didn't really matter much, since you could spend a couple of days and be done with it in PVE-land. The real contention, in my opinion, arises from PVP giving a tiny fraction of the experience gain that PVE activity does, including grinding which is currently by far and away the most effective way, but even PVE questing is far faster.

Balance out the XP gains across the game better, making PVP on an average 1 hour session grant around (action varies, as is the nature of PVP) the same XP as an average 1 hour session of pve mob grinding... and suddenly, the issue isn't that someone "could" have a higher level than you. It's what you have earned or not by PVP'ing. Then, if the power gap eventually plays out to generally be too big, that can be adjusted.

@Publius_Scipio , the answer is, you don't. You balance it so that people have the same general ability to earn those champion points in the first place. Then, if the amount of power they grant proves too much, you adjust that. Simply nerfing champion points is like a business meeting where the executives are saying, "We're spending too much money!" and jumping straight to "We need to earn more! Let's raise prices and stop spending anything entirely!" instead of "How can we reduce our operating costs?" first.

A campaign with a certain CP limit would pretty much eliminate the imbalance between players in that campaign.
And it would also be interesting for ZOS to see how popular such a campaign would be.
But it's beside the point here, this thread is about showing other player's champion ranks.
If nothing is wrong with that, it should be done. And I don't see any negatives.

Sacadon

Wrobel did say (can't remember when) that they were working on a way to represent CP in the form of tiers/danger levels so that players would know generally. Would be nice for ZOS to chime in on whether this is planned for 1.7 or not.

Jolinius

Yeah just the other day i was excluded from a vdsa group because they would only take people with 360 cps or more. Wish they would cap these things or something....i see some people on my friends list and theyre in cracked wood cave at least 5 hours a day. Thats not fun.....grinding to stay competitive is not fun.

Quantine

Does the API allow for an add-on to be able to show it?

And I do agree with @Attorneyatlawl about making PvP XP gains higher to compensate the mindles zombie grind people are doing to get advantage in the game.

BEZDNA

I support idea of having CP rank is visual.

But for me ersonaly CP system is awesome, howeawer i do belive that there shud be some kind of catch up system implemented for ppl who just started to play or those who have big brakes in game, the CP gap doesn't looks like a real issue. It is more like ppl complain about CP gap becous they understend that there are ppl who are far ahead with there number of CP, but the fact is that there are onlu 0,1% of player base who has much more CP then others and sll those ppl are hard to face in Cyro and they are not that much pve competitive.

Also what you have to know about champ system is that there is sertain point when you almost stop getting any benifit from cham system - let say when you get 1500 cp, 1,5k out of 3,6, you almost stop getting any real benefit, the only thing you get is small increas in you hp/stam/man pool which is not that noticeble. And now 300 cp is very comon thing, so all those ppl are alredy on 20% from getting max benefit from CP (300/1500).

Valnas

cp's have a financial imperative, not a balancing one

Talcyndl

Sacadon wrote: »

Would be nice for ZOS to chime in on whether this is planned for 1.7 or not.

Given ZOS's history, there is no way such a system will be in 1.7. Even if they decide to do it, it will take 6 months to a year to get in released.

Lord_Draevan

If ZOS won't change the CP system, they could always make a PvP campaign where CP is disabled altogether.
Though I doubt many people would want to play on it, especially those who have been grinding CP since they came out, they have a huge advantage and wouldn't want to lose it.

Attorneyatlawl

Valnas wrote: »

cp's have a financial imperative, not a balancing one

It really doesn't, actually. The in-game XP potions are very, very inexpensive for anyone who isn't a new player, or doesn't play an hour a week to login and feed their horses. They're cheap enough that you quite literally can pay for them just by using them with the vendor drops earned while one is active (50 minutes). The reason people play with them active in PVE and not PVP is because the experience gain in Cyrodiil is extremely, out-of-line, low. A lot of players have them on when questing or doing dungeons, and Veteran Dragonstar Arena, though, because it's worth using them with their low cost to get the extra gains.

Attorneyatlawl

Jolinius wrote: »

Yeah just the other day i was excluded from a vdsa group because they would only take people with 360 cps or more. Wish they would cap these things or something....i see some people on my friends list and theyre in cracked wood cave at least 5 hours a day. Thats not fun.....grinding to stay competitive is not fun.

"The other day I was excluded from a PVP group because I don't heal well enough for how they like to play." Nothing stops you, me, or anyone else from making their own vDSA run . My champion rank isn't even to 300, yet (I've topped the leaderboards in Trials and when I went out to do so, landed in the top 1 percent on a 30-day campaign that I only pvp'd in for two weeks out of). It doesn't stop me... there's no reason it should stop anyone else, either.

Yep, some people are hanging out grinding mobs most of the time they're online, due to it being the only strong XP source. Buff up things other people find fun, too... and the problem there is solved. I'd love to PVP like crazy and earn quick champion point gains. I can't. I also don't like to grind for huge stretches, either... a few, even five or ten hours a week when pushing an alt up to veteran 14, sure... it's relaxing. 5 hours a day every day for weeks? Heck no. So I don't do it. But I would like to be able to play the things I find fun like I do now, and still be earning champion ranks at a reasonable rate. Don't get me wrong; I feel "behind the curve" too... but I'm not going to bore myself spending my entire time online in-game doing something I don't find fun, to "keep up with the Joneses". ZOS will fix the XP parity soon enough, I imagine. In the meantime, I've been buying Perfect Roe and Psijic Ambrosia potions in-game when I see them cheap, and saving them until then.

Lava_Croft

When people playing PvP end up weaker than people grinding Goblins, you know something is pretty broken.

Valnas

I'll rephrase

the developers have embraced a game model called buy 2 play

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Valnas wrote: »

cp's have a financial imperative, not a balancing one

It really doesn't, actually. The in-game XP potions are very, very inexpensive for anyone who isn't a new player, or doesn't play an hour a week to login and feed their horses. They're cheap enough that you quite literally can pay for them just by using them with the vendor drops earned while one is active (50 minutes). The reason people play with them active in PVE and not PVP is because the experience gain in Cyrodiil is extremely, out-of-line, low. A lot of players have them on when questing or doing dungeons, and Veteran Dragonstar Arena, though, because it's worth using them with their low cost to get the extra gains.

Ok, i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. If you don't think: nerfing all the grinds in game, and then implementing a gold mat or crown way to increase advancement, wasn't a huge time/money sink in liue of content (things we actually want to pay for), you've drank too much kool aid.

Erock25

People who have hours a day to grind will stick up for CP system ... that is a fact.

Vilestride

Before I say this, I wanna make it clear that I am of the opinion that competitive is good and the easiest way to create competition is give everyone EXACTLY the same ***, then see who is better with it.

However. One could also look at the CP grind and gradual progression as an 'Earned' statistical advantage. in the same way someone who is good at a sport has to put hours of mundane training and practice into it to get better, one could say if you put in the boring effort to grind CP you deserve to have that extra 10% fire resistance than someone else. People with more natural abilty are still going to win most the time of course.

I am kinda just rambling here but going with what you said sypher about 2 people with EQUAL skil fighting if one has the statistical advantage they will usually win. IS THIS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE? if they put in more time/effort into having said advantage why do they not deserve a win? I dunno, just a way of looking at it.

But yes, no good reason we shouldn't be able to see enemies and friends CP, I mean we can see their ranks, CP level is if anything more important.

Valnas

Giahh wrote: »

Before I say this, I wanna make it clear that I am of the opinion that competitive is good and the easiest way to create competition is give everyone EXACTLY the same ***, then see who is better with it.

However. One could also look at the CP grind and gradual progression as an 'Earned' statistical advantage. in the same way someone who is good at a sport has to put hours of mundane training and practice into it to get better, one could say if you put in the boring effort to grind CP you deserve to have that extra 10% fire resistance than someone else. People with more natural abilty are still going to win most the time of course.

I am kinda just rambling here but going with what you said sypher about 2 people with EQUAL skil fighting if one has the statistical advantage they will usually win. IS THIS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE? if they put in more time/effort into having said advantage why do they not deserve a win? I dunno, just a way of looking at it.

But yes, no good reason we shouldn't be able to see enemies and friends CP, I mean we can see their ranks, CP level is if anything more important.

because the most rewarding gameplay style is to duo in a cave in isolation for months, and then roflstomp everything as a result of their model.

Quantine

Giahh wrote: »

Before I say this, I wanna make it clear that I am of the opinion that competitive is good and the easiest way to create competition is give everyone EXACTLY the same ***, then see who is better with it.

However. One could also look at the CP grind and gradual progression as an 'Earned' statistical advantage. in the same way someone who is good at a sport has to put hours of mundane training and practice into it to get better, one could say if you put in the boring effort to grind CP you deserve to have that extra 10% fire resistance than someone else. People with more natural abilty are still going to win most the time of course.

I am kinda just rambling here but going with what you said sypher about 2 people with EQUAL skil fighting if one has the statistical advantage they will usually win. IS THIS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE? if they put in more time/effort into having said advantage why do they not deserve a win? I dunno, just a way of looking at it.

But yes, no good reason we shouldn't be able to see enemies and friends CP, I mean we can see their ranks, CP level is if anything more important.

Still, people good at sports or any other activity you need practice to get good at did that by practicing that activity. We talk about people getting advantage in PvP by doing something that neither has anything to do with PvP, nor requires any skill - zombie grind.. and that's where your argument looses strength.

If I put a lot of hours into PvP, which I do, I want to get at least the same progression as a zombie grinder... even better would be if I could get some benefit that gives an unique advantage in PvP for my time spent in PvP.. but that's utopia I guess...

Erock25

Giahh wrote: »

Before I say this, I wanna make it clear that I am of the opinion that competitive is good and the easiest way to create competition is give everyone EXACTLY the same ***, then see who is better with it.

However. One could also look at the CP grind and gradual progression as an 'Earned' statistical advantage. in the same way someone who is good at a sport has to put hours of mundane training and practice into it to get better, one could say if you put in the boring effort to grind CP you deserve to have that extra 10% fire resistance than someone else. People with more natural abilty are still going to win most the time of course.

I am kinda just rambling here but going with what you said sypher about 2 people with EQUAL skil fighting if one has the statistical advantage they will usually win. IS THIS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE? if they put in more time/effort into having said advantage why do they not deserve a win? I dunno, just a way of looking at it.

But yes, no good reason we shouldn't be able to see enemies and friends CP, I mean we can see their ranks, CP level is if anything more important.

Max CP should be like 5% better than 0 CP for each category of CP buff. As it stands, it is something like 30% or so better considering all factors.

Ezareth

If any of you have had a chance to play on PTS with 3600 CP in the garbage template gear they give you you would notice that you're far more powerful than an emperor in live today. While no one is close 3600 yet, there are a good dozen people over 1000 CP now, probably more. They don't even need to grind to 3600 as the diminishing returns past 1600 or so CP is extreme. Imagine if a group of 4 or 5 of these people banded together? Currently there can only be 1 emperor in a single campaign, but what happens when there is 6 or 7 emperor equivalent players farming people with 1/10th their CP over and over?

Displaying a CP level is only the first step. They're not going to remove CP or drastically change it because the CP hamster grind was designed to keep players logging in.

AhPook_Is_Here

I'm not really sure I understand what the complaints are about the champ system. I don't care if they make it so you can see CL or not, while the advantage is meaningful, I'm not sure the information is. I suppose it would allow gankers to focus more on low hanging fruit if they could know who to avoid and might put up a fight. Maybe it would make more sense just to have that info next to their alliance rank in the kill recap. That way if you die you know what you faced, but aren't given some kind of xray vision into everyone's soul.

MMOs are really about having an unfair advantage. Having more people, better stats, better gear, better buffs, better tactics having a class with a comparative advantage to another class and the initiative to engage or not to engage.

Competitive games like LoL or Starcraft or any number of shooters have a higher valued metric for skills, and while games like LOL provide ways of building an "edge" the matching system dulls that by ranking you with people who are as good as you. Competitive games balance abilities or homogenize them, balance teams, balance maps, remove or balance gear leaving the outcomes more to good choices in combat and less to choices that were made during character development.

In a game that is designed around imbalance, I don't see the point in trying to make things more transparent, it is what it is, a game of stacking your advantages to a certain outcome, and tea-bagging.

BEZDNA

Quantine wrote: »

If I put a lot of hours into PvP, which I do, I want to get at least the same progression as a zombie grinder... even better would be if I could get some benefit that gives an unique advantage in PvP for my time spent in PvP.. but that's utopia I guess...

So basicly you statment means "I want to get more benefit from doing what i like em enjoy and have fun from (PvP) over ppl who do dedicated boring existed grind". It is wrong by defult grind always was more rewarding way to achive your goal.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

When people playing PvP end up weaker than people grinding Goblins, you know something is pretty broken.

Pepele playing PvP end up stronger skill wise and on top of that they get AP and normal amount of CP, ppl who grind end up stronger stat wise, but don't get AP and lose there pvp skill.

Ezareth wrote: »

While no one is close 3600 yet, there are a good dozen people over 1000 CP now, probably more.

proof plz. All ppl calling that they have over 1k CP ended up with having like 400-600 cp, the highest i know personaly is 747 atm and that person is grinding 15-20 h per day.

Howeawer i belive that there are cood be 1 or 2, maybe 5 ppl with over 1000 cp on both EU and NA together, but i'm 100% sure they suxx hard in pvp and they don't put any imbalance to game which would be noticeble to everyone.

Quantine

BEZDNA wrote: »

Quantine wrote: »

If I put a lot of hours into PvP, which I do, I want to get at least the same progression as a zombie grinder... even better would be if I could get some benefit that gives an unique advantage in PvP for my time spent in PvP.. but that's utopia I guess...

So basicly you statment means "I want to get more benefit from doing what i like em enjoy and have fun from (PvP) over ppl who do dedicated boring existed grind". It is wrong by defult grind always was more rewarding way to achive your goal.

Wrong. That's not my statement. With the current system, you get a significant advantage in PvP for doing something that has nothing to do with PvP. It's like getting better at singing by vacuum cleaning your house. Singing not only requires a totally different skill set than vacuum cleaning, it is also an activity that requires unique talent and practice to get good at, while vacuum cleaning can be done by anyone. This is what's wrong. To be really good at PvP you need practice, knowledge and dedication to PvP, while to be good at zombie grinding... well...

This is a general problem of grind vs "normal" leveling. It wasn't that extreme before CPs, because leveling to max level didn't take a long time, even if you would do PvE quests+PVP and you had to do some content to unlock enough skill points/skills which gave grinders some disadvantage. So, the difference in efficiency of the types of leveling your char to max were not THAT GREAT as compared to the difference right now!

And PvP-ing is not just fun... let me see.. lag, idling while trying to avoid lag, class/build imbalances, countless bugs, horse simulator... and now CP imbalances, well... as a PvPer you put up with a lot of *** to get some fun in the end.

Ezareth

BEZDNA wrote: »

Quantine wrote: »

If I put a lot of hours into PvP, which I do, I want to get at least the same progression as a zombie grinder... even better would be if I could get some benefit that gives an unique advantage in PvP for my time spent in PvP.. but that's utopia I guess...

So basicly you statment means "I want to get more benefit from doing what i like em enjoy and have fun from (PvP) over ppl who do dedicated boring existed grind". It is wrong by defult grind always was more rewarding way to achive your goal.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

When people playing PvP end up weaker than people grinding Goblins, you know something is pretty broken.

Pepele playing PvP end up stronger skill wise and on top of that they get AP and normal amount of CP, ppl who grind end up stronger stat wise, but don't get AP and lose there pvp skill.

Ezareth wrote: »

While no one is close 3600 yet, there are a good dozen people over 1000 CP now, probably more.

proof plz. All ppl calling that they have over 1k CP ended up with having like 400-600 cp, the highest i know personaly is 747 atm and that person is grinding 15-20 h per day.

Howeawer i belive that there are cood be 1 or 2, maybe 5 ppl with over 1000 cp on both EU and NA together, but i'm 100% sure they suxx hard in pvp and they don't put any imbalance to game which would be noticeble to everyone.

I've seen the proof from two people now who ahcieved the 300 champion point per tree achievements (must have 900 CP) some time ago and I know they're both amazing PvPers. If in my small circles there are two, I guarantee there are a good dozen out there.

15-20h a day of grinding if you knew how to grind would put you easily past 1000 CP. Good grinding puts you at 600-800 exp/hour. With exp pots you're at 850-1.2 Million an hour. That would give you 2-3 CP an hour and will net you 672 CP a month if you're grinding 12 hours a day with exp pots.

Personally I fall asleep by the end of my first EXP pot while grinding unless there is some PvP to distract me.

I think giving visibility to a players CP allows other players the chance to retain a bit of ego when fighting a player with a drastically higher CP rank than them. I don't think anyone here gets overly upset when some emperor 2-shots them and this would be similar. It also gives some bragging rights when defeating a player with a much higher CP rank etc.... similar to me killing V14 players on my V6 with 1000 weapon damage.

BigTone

#buffpvpxp

Although this would encourage more guilds using tower/bridge/outpost farms, that requires some skill and can be squashed by a good group of players. Grinding zombs requires zero skill and should not be rewarded. Put more xp into actually pvping and you encourage more pvp population and encourage people earning their CP.