Freedom to change classes.

Armann

If they are going to allow race change, why not class change? Having a Nord turn into an Altmer is ridiculous, changing your profession is not unusual.

Sidney

The game is alt friendly. It has 8 slots. If you don't want to play the game, maybe play something else. Leveling is part of the game. If you want to avoid playing the game then this probably isn't the game for you.

Egg_Death

I disagree; it is entirely un-ES to allow you to change your character on a fundamental level after the fact. You can be anything you want, but that does not mean you can take back choices you made in developing your character to do so.

Fizzlewizzle

BurtFreeman wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

I get his logic, and from a honest standpoint it is flawless.

i give you an agree for most of your write.

just 2 consideration, because i am an as***
- play to win: a winners is never behind the build, is behind his gaming skill. i mean we can have 10000 players using one build and a bunch of winner: they will be just the exactly same persons over and over, and they will probably win with any builds. unfortunately is not my case and fortunately because i play a good looser role.
- soloing, is not really a big deal with any class in eso: for example i can soloing with my templar without any combos, just using puncturing sweep, the first templar skill that kb and heal too. i can, but i don't, because is boring, but with that skill you can easily survive.

True. The one controlling the account mostly decides if said account is a winner or a loser.
You have really strange (impractical) builds which shine in the right hands, and you have the general Faceroller builds who get destroyed by a level 10 (newcomer) just because the user thinks Epic build = instant win.

An uber build needs to fit your general playstyle if you want to be successful. The general guy who runs around in heavy armor behind a shield chugging potions and spamming heals won't get anywhere with an Rusher suicide build. your brain says no while you need to do it to be successful.

Main reason i also think that class changes (or removal of classes altogether) won't hurt.
The guy who is always a tank won't suddenly become a lawnmower in cyrodiil, and the healer at the back won't become the guy calling the shots on the front line. Everyone has their own comfort zone, which they might find a bit more in another class.

Armann wrote: »

If they are going to allow race change, why not class change? Having a Nord turn into an Altmer is ridiculous, changing your profession is not unusual.

i haven't heard anything about Race changes (yet). Not that i would do that... I love my argonian, and some Dunmer, Bosmer or Nord being called "Mending-The-Wounded" sounds stupid.

Sidney wrote: »

The game is alt friendly. It has 8 slots. If you don't want to play the game, maybe play something else. Leveling is part of the game. If you want to avoid playing the game then this probably isn't the game for you.

An alt friendly game isn't decided by the amount of character slots you have. its mostly about the leveling curve.
The curve in ESO is long, mostly (i think) because this isn't a grind based game, but a story driven one.
People here want to "play the game", but repeating the same 1500 quests 4 times just you have had a taste of every (max level) Class isn't something most of us are planning to do.

If "Playing the game" means finding mistakes (Grind Spots) in the game to level up, then i might recommend you to switch to your basic Japanese MMO / Grindfest game. This is a game carrying the elder scrolls title.

Egg_Death wrote: »

I disagree; it is entirely un-ES to allow you to change your character on a fundamental level after the fact. You can be anything you want, but that does not mean you can take back choices you made in developing your character to do so.

That would also mean you shouldn't be able to reset your HP, Magicka and Stamina, or your skill points.
Why would you be able to switch from a heavy armor SnB monster to a light armor mage. Then it sounds less drastic to change from a lightning throwing baddass (Sorc) to a flame spewing monster (DK).

In older ES games you were free to change whatever you did on the drop of a hat (and a bit of training). Here you can't do that.

Sidney

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Sidney wrote: »

The game is alt friendly. It has 8 slots. If you don't want to play the game, maybe play something else. Leveling is part of the game. If you want to avoid playing the game then this probably isn't the game for you.

An alt friendly game isn't decided by the amount of character slots you have. its mostly about the leveling curve.
The curve in ESO is long, mostly (i think) because this isn't a grind based game, but a story driven one.
People here want to "play the game", but repeating the same 1500 quests 4 times just you have had a taste of every (max level) Class isn't something most of us are planning to do.

If "Playing the game" means finding mistakes (Grind Spots) in the game to level up, then i might recommend you to switch to your basic Japanese MMO / Grindfest game. This is a game carrying the elder scrolls title.

I mentioned nothing about grinding. I haven't had to do so. I manage to stay ahead in levels without grinding so my only assumption can be that players who cry about leveling and having to grind are skipping quests or map objectives. I am playing the game as it was setup to be played yet you suggest to me that I play something else? That makes zero sense.

I think it's those of you who try to turn it into a different game that need to go play something else. You want a new class? Go level it. That's part of the game and if leveling isn't for you go play something with no levels or the ones that let you buy a character.

You can do it easily without grinding. Again, if you don't enjoy playing the game then go find a game that suits you instead of trying to make this like a previous MMO you're used to.

Fizzlewizzle

Sidney wrote: »

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Sidney wrote: »

The game is alt friendly. It has 8 slots. If you don't want to play the game, maybe play something else. Leveling is part of the game. If you want to avoid playing the game then this probably isn't the game for you.

An alt friendly game isn't decided by the amount of character slots you have. its mostly about the leveling curve.
The curve in ESO is long, mostly (i think) because this isn't a grind based game, but a story driven one.
People here want to "play the game", but repeating the same 1500 quests 4 times just you have had a taste of every (max level) Class isn't something most of us are planning to do.

If "Playing the game" means finding mistakes (Grind Spots) in the game to level up, then i might recommend you to switch to your basic Japanese MMO / Grindfest game. This is a game carrying the elder scrolls title.

I mentioned nothing about grinding. I haven't had to do so. I manage to stay ahead in levels without grinding so my only assumption can be that players who cry about leveling and having to grind are skipping quests or map objectives. I am playing the game as it was setup to be played yet you suggest to me that I play something else? That makes zero sense.

I think it's those of you who try to turn it into a different game that need to go play something else. You want a new class? Go level it. That's part of the game and if leveling isn't for you go play something with no levels or the ones that let you buy a character.

You can do it easily without grinding. Again, if you don't enjoy playing the game then go find a game that suits you instead of trying to make this like a previous MMO you're used to.

I also haven't had to grind, i personally like the quest. As you mentioned yourself, you don't have to grind if you don't skip quests.

This works however two ways.
- If you don't grind and you want to reach max level you have to do all quests, meaning you have nothing new to see on a second (third or fourth) account.
- If you want to have something new to see or do on any new accounts, you have to grind.

Main reason i would be for class changes and such. I already have all my Templar skills (as well as crafting, and a few armor and weapon skill trees) maxed, but i still have to reach VR14 and clear 1 whole alliance (quest wise) and Craglorn (and a few dungeons).
The game isn't finished yet, nor is my account max level, but as a Templar i don't have much more to improve.
Continuing using a new profession would freshen up the game a bit, and i still have a lot of unexplored content to see.

(Doing that unfinished content with a class i haven't played yet would mean that i have to drop a "perfected" account just for a few new skills. I ain't getting back my High stat mount, nor my maxed, highly researched, crafting skills.
I don't plan to switch race (whatever happens), so what do i gain? A gimped experience?)

Tre_775

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Tre_775 wrote: »

I think it would be a great idea as long as your level would be reset to 1.

And that would be rather suboptimal.
Starting over at level 1, with some/half/all your quests that allowed levelling already done? No way that'd work, with only grinding as your sole way to level up.
Starting over at level 1, resetting all the quests? Just make an alt.

My point exactly.

Many players in this game have little enough idea of how class roles function in group content as it is. The last thing I want in a high level group is a player who just got his "new" class yesterday.

Rune_Relic

If you swapped class...you still have to level up every skill and every morph from scratch for that new class.
You would do this with an Alt anyway.

I wouldn't mind if it wouldn't destroy build diversity.
But there is so many sheep out there using the last FOTM build, all we would get is clones everywhere.
Whats the point of having other classes at that point ?
Whats the point of having other races with racial swapping for the same reason ?

Rex-Umbra

Yes I would love to change my Magicka Nightblade to a Sorc for awhile since there is no way I am investing in grinding another character to end game.

Fizzlewizzle

Tre_775 wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Tre_775 wrote: »

I think it would be a great idea as long as your level would be reset to 1.

And that would be rather suboptimal.
Starting over at level 1, with some/half/all your quests that allowed levelling already done? No way that'd work, with only grinding as your sole way to level up.
Starting over at level 1, resetting all the quests? Just make an alt.

My point exactly.

Many players in this game have little enough idea of how class roles function in group content as it is. The last thing I want in a high level group is a player who just got his "new" class yesterday.

You would need to play the class for a certain period of time before you can actually use it in group content.
All Class skill trees and skills would need to be leveled (and morphed). i doubt that is something you can do within a day or two.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

If you swapped class...you still have to level up every skill and every morph from scratch for that new class.
You would do this with an Alt anyway.

I wouldn't mind if it wouldn't destroy build diversity.
But there is so many sheep out there using the last FOTM build, all we would get is clones everywhere.
Whats the point of having other classes at that point ?
Whats the point of having other races with racial swapping for the same reason ?

Lower level skills level faster if you fight higher level enemies with it.
Besides that you can use your new skill trees in combination with maxed out skill trees.
Makes combat a whole lot easier, as well as opening new skills since you (most likely) have skill points to spare.

You will always have FOTM people, But like Templars being the "FOTM" when jesus beam came out, and the current speculations that Nightblade will be the next "FOTM", most people will generally roll with what they like.
If people want to spend X Gold on a class change because of a hunch or first impression, then let them do so. The ones with brains know better and search for their own style, and play that way.

The point of other classes?
The option to play as you want. To test out stuff without having to start from square 1.

Your comment about Racials i don't really get to be honest.
Racial swapping and Class swapping are two different things. one will allow you to test new things, while the other serves for nothing more than min-maxing your character.

newtinmpls

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

- If you don't grind and you want to reach max level you have to do all quests, meaning you have nothing new to see on a second (third or fourth) account.

Here is where I disagree, and I base it on my experience of a heavily RP playstyle. My altmer sorceress didn't really find the casually condescending racism of Pirondil in Toothmaul gully worth note, much less disturbing.

Her illegitimate (apparently I can't use the b word) sister had a very different reaction. And playing her, I like to think of Pirondil's slightly less pretty face after he had to heal up that broken nose.

Fizzlewizzle

Potential way for implementation (with a bit of RP friendliness):

Changing a class will require you to do a quest, dependent on the class you want to become.
All Quests will start in the starting city of each faction and will be scaled to the level of the player (Like werewolf and Vampire quests). The quest, being composed out of at least 3 segments, will lets the player experience the class they do the quest for a bit before a permanent change (at the end of the questline).

Wannabe Sorcerers would start their quest at the Mages Guild.
Wannabe Templars would start their quest at the Fighters Guild.
Wannabe Nightblades would start their quest at the Outlaw Refuges.
Wannabe Dragonknights would start their quest at the Bar (Undaunted meeting place).

Each Segment of the quest chain will give the player skills normally reserved for the selected class (Like you get Vampire skills during the Vampire quest/ Werewolf skills during the werewolf quest).
The reason there will be (at least) 3 segments is so the player gets to use each specific skill tree ones before the definite change.

The quests objectives can range from Supporting a group of NPC's (Templar> Restoring Light or Nightblade > Siphoning),
Acting as a tank for a group of NPCs (DK > Earthen Heart), Assassination tasks (Nightblade> Assassination/ Shadow) Or more normal tasks Like kill this/ that, Find books regarding knowledge or Duel experts in certain professions.

Ones the player has done the complete questline he/she will be changed into said class (which will also require a fee equal to the amount of Skillpoints you have).
Any Class you haven't played as (yet) will have its skills trees set to level 1.
You will only be able to change your class again AFTER you reach level 50 in all 3 skill trees, as that will be the only indication you have experienced the class enough to make your conclusion if it's fit for you.

Changing to a class you have already played before will give you back the skills you had before you changed classes (like how a level 10 Vampire can become a Werewolf and turn back into a level 10 Vampire).

Shadesofkin

There is no role I can't do with any of the classes. Some are just more intuitive than others.

Techkey1

Personally I think that class change would be amazing if done right. I don't think that classes changes should be cheap. If one wants to change classes I belive you have to earn it or pay for it.

My 3 methods for classes changes.

1. Beat all three stories and earn 1 free class change.
2. Pay 10,000 crowns for a single scroll to change classes, or 15,000 crowns for 2 scrolls. (The Class Redo Pack)
3. Pay 200,000 in game gold.

My method of how to unlock access to all of the skills for every class to create the ultimate in diversity.

First set up the system to unlock classes in alphabetical order so that one would have to play the full story to unlock access to all skills. So no matter what you start with the next class to open would be in order. ( or choose what skill set you want to open next could be a possibility as well)

Ex: Say you start as a Templar (that skill set is open to you because that's what you are duh) and you beat the first part of the story (faction 1), once that has been completed the Dragon Knight skill set will be open to diversify you class if you should choose to do so. Then say you continue and complete the second part of the story (faction 2), that would then unlock the next skill set which would be the Nightblade, and finally you complete the third part of the story (faction 3) and that would unlock the Sorcerer's skill set. Each skill set that is earned would produce an increased level of diversity for the player. And seeing that there are only so many skill points no one would be able to have them all full at one time. This would also kill basic "cookie cutter" builds and it would/should also stop the cry babies from thinking that having all of this would involve the "flavor of the month" nonsense.

And now you would have all four class skill sets to play with to create what you as a player feel is the right character for you.

Such a system would allow for so many different builds that unique would truly mean unique. You could then be anything you wanted to because you earned it.

Last but not least the system I just mentioned should not be able to have a way to purchase it at all you must complete the story to earn such. No crown store purchase, no gold purchase, NO PURCHASE!

This system is more geared toward people who don't like playing/having alts and for people who love alts. How?

Well if you don't like having alts then just playing around with you character is just fun for you to play with.
But if you like alts then your alternate character can not have all skill sets unlocked until that character completes all three parts of the story, meaning you would have one or more characters with the benefits of being diverse meaning you could switch characters out faster that having to pay to redo skill points over and over again and the original reasons for having alts still would exist mean bag space, holding items etc. Not to mention if you pay attention to the fact that its alphabetical some people would already know how to just play up until they unlock the skills that they want to have/play with anyway.

Curious: Tell me, what do you think? And please make it clean. I personally would be satisfied with either of these methods but I like the last one the most because it allows for more personal creation.

mb10

You've never been able to change your race or class in any other TES game so... no. Will hugely unbalance the game to change your class at will. Whatever class is "in" will be played by the majority of players and when the next patch comes out nerfing that class everyone will moan. Its hard enough balancing the game already.

Make a new character.

7788b14_ESO

Most games won't let you change classes but some do let you boost your character. That way you don't have to see all those same quests again. So they should offer level boosts which they probably will one day as it's a money maker. Or scrolls that allow you to skip the first 10, 20. or even 30 levels would be nice.

Artis

Omg, how is "make a new character" or "game is alt-friendly" a solution???

That doesn't solve the problem and doesn't answer the question in OP. When you played for a while, say, since release, you have 15k+ achievement points, all traits researched, some rare racial styles, titles, a character name that you like(!!) etc etc etc. Rerolling a new character is not an option.

Korah_Eaglecry

Get off it. You have 8 slots to create 8 different characters. Thats 2 of the same class if you choose to evenly break it up. No one actually NEEDs a class change. What they NEED to do is stop trying to use things like 'Play as you like' as some sort of catch all excuse for your lazy ideas.

TheGrayChangeling

I'd much rather see a build-your-own-class in true ES fashion than a class change option.

And anyway, allowing class changes is a pretty uncommon feature in MMOs, since

1) having players invest their time and effort in alt creation is a tried and true player retention model and

2) it reduces FOTMism because - time and effort.

TheShadowScout

A class change feature is the one recustomization they already said they won't do.
No surprise there - it is the one that required the most effort, and the one the least people would be willing to pay large suims of crowns for, thus pretty much ensuring it to become a unprofitable addition.

As for the lore... class change would not be "changing your profession", since you'd forget all you ever learned and replaced it with something new. That'd be more like... brainwashing? Or in fantasy terms, death and posession by a different soul? Something like that anyhow...

Personally I'd much rather see some feature that allowed to expand your class in some way. Sorta like the "prestige classes" were back in AD&D... where you keep your learned class expertise, but add some new stuff to make all of it a new sort-of-sub-class... that's what I went for with my Class Morph Idea at least...

olsborg

I think gina said sometime ago that alliance change, race change, gender change etc will be coming, except class change.

idk

We are free to change classes at any time. We have 8 character slots allowing us to roll each class and more.

This is not a single player TES game and it is unrealistic and illogical to think it should play exactly like one. It's an MMO and as such it must play differently.

At that, don't be surprised if they add the ability to change class though expect it to cost a chunk of change.


Didn't read the entire dissertation in the OP.

Katahdin

The devs have already stated that class changes will not happen. You have 8 Character slots, use one and make an alt in the class you want.

Naff

I'm on the side of NOT be able to change classes or mash them up. Level an alt. BUT, I sure would like to be able to change the race on a couple of the toons I made 2 years ago before I knew anything about the game much. I hate leveling alts just for racial passives.

idk

Naff wrote: »

I'm on the side of NOT be able to change classes or mash them up. Level an alt. BUT, I sure would like to be able to change the race on a couple of the toons I made 2 years ago before I knew anything about the game much. I hate leveling alts just for racial passives.

Devs has stated they will bring in ability to change racial Passives (not the actual race appearance). When and how much is more the question.

Ra'Shtar

I would like a way to progress your class in a certain path, for example if i want to be a sorcerer that focuses more on Storm calling i could be able to advance in that direction and have 3 skill lines dedicated to lightning powers same with dark magic or Dawns Wrath from the templar skill line .

Nestor

I don't need to change my class. I just need more slots.

Thing is, what is in favor changes about every 3 months. For a while, Sorcerers were the top, then they were not, then they were again. DKs, same thing. Each class gets it's time in the sun and its time in the shade. All allowing class changes would do is to have players changing out all their characters enmass as balance changes are made.

I think it is better to learn to play the class you chose within the limitations of that class. Besides, with the Champ System, it really does not take that long to get a character to 50. Then they are end game ready as long as you have at least one character that has earned the champ points, or enough of them. If you end up parking your DK for a month or two until the balance pendulum swings back your way, then that is what you do. I have done this. I turn them into a farmer or support character during those times.

If we had more slots, then we could make our FoTM characters, even delete them and make new ones as time goes on. I only say this as I have 4 now 5 mains and 3 mules, one of which can be deleted (no real development on that one). So, I could use 2 or 4 more slots.

STEVIL

I have all eight alts active in vet ranges.

I did chg class twice - deleting two different vets bc all in all I realized they weren't fun for me even after several respec and getting into vet levels. So I deleted them for different class-race combos and tried new ideas who are now vets too.

I have respecced several characters swapping weapons or focus then retrained to the new style.

So "changing" class is very doable now.

What seems to be underpinning this push is not so much class chg as class access or even really class dissolution by basically creating the ability to on one character have access to select abilities from all the classes.

Here is why I don't want to go that route - I have seen it lead to more homogenization of traits.

Basically right now class A can have a better execute than class B bc class B might have a better DOT or better shield etc etc creating a kind of dynamic equilibrium. The individual traits don't all have to be equal to each other sinilar trait bc they are always part of a bundle called a class and class balance is what matters.

Once you lose the bundling, balance has to fall to the trait level and that makes the "evolutionary pressure" push towards sameness not differentiation.

I think the proposed cp vs vet redo will address some of the time to redo from scratch burden, I found moving thru 1 to 50 relatively quick in the two redos.

So, it's not a change I would support.

It would also raise the bar on learning curve. Something not good for growth usualky.

TheShadowScout

Nestor wrote: »

I don't need to change my class. I just need more slots...

I agree on that one. And lucky us, they said those would come "soon™"...