Freedom to change classes.

Fizzlewizzle

"Play as you like to play".
For most Elder scrolls games this sentence holds true, as you are truly free to do whatever you like.
Here, in ESO, you are already restricted by classes the second you enter the game.

Classes aren't that bad, as it restricts the players from mix-matching the best and strongest combo imaginable in this game, but at the same time it becomes a problem when it comes to balance.
Every class should feel unique. Every class should be able to do the same things any other class can do. Instead of focusing on the uniqueness of each class they all need to be the same since someone is bound to complain if his/her class is just a bit weaker compared to any other class.

Should classes, like Atribute points and skill points, be changeable if the player wishes so?
I would say yes.

We all like to test things and play around. If X build or style doesn't fit your taste you collect some cash and reset your Stats or skills.
If you know what style fits you best you pick the appropriate class and start working towards your goal. Didn't it fit your taste, or didn't it reach your expectations... then you get into a problem.
In Single player games you can install a mod to fix mistakes you have made. In a Multiplayer game this isn't possible.
In a single player game where you can't use mods (console) you can even look for exploits to gain what you need the fast way (most Skyrim players might know Crouching Hadvar backstabbing trick to gain 99 sneak in 20 minutes).

Since this is a Multiplayer game those types of "unfair" advantages are a sin. And, since Zenimax spend a lot of time creating this Lore-filled fantasy world, Brainless grinding to get levels fast is also frowned upon (and "fixed"/ removed from the game).
To experience (or at least test out) everything in this game you need to play the whole game 4 times (main story, Silver and Gold) so you have each of the different Classes.
Besides that you need to spend MONTHS learning every trait for each weapon and armor piece, at least if you want to have a Genuine (Skyrim/ Oblivion/ Morrowind like) hero.

Having a Class change option would benefit the freedom of the players greatly.
Sure, you might get the "flavour of the Month" talk, but unlike now they could actually make the classes more unique in their own way.
If you want to be a real HP heavy tank you could be a DK, A sustain DPS a Sorc, a burst DPS a NB and a healer a Temp.

For how it would work?
A Player talks to X NPC to change its Class for a small fee (note the words small fee)
If the player wants to put skill points in said new class skill tree they would need to (1) have lots of skill points to spare or (2) reset their skill points.

Sort of like the Vampire / Werewolf tree.
Become one. Level the skill tree (for Classes it would be trees), level the skills and your done.
You switch to another Class (one you haven't worked on before) you have to level their skills and trees from the start (and If you switch to a class you have played as before you can continue where you left off).


FoTM is still a simple concept to talk about, but most people seem to forget that equipment is a important factor in this.
Suddenly switching from a Light armor Glass tank Sorc to a Heavy armor Tank DK will cost a bit more than just the Class changing and skill reset frees.


I'm curious what other people think about this.
And, with curious i mean that i hope to have a normal discussion without swearing, name calling or flaming of any kind.
If you don't like this concept (to whatever extent) i would love to hear why, or for what reason. A "No, because i hate it", "Yes, and all no-sayers should F**k off" or something along that line doesn't contribute to any discussion besides showing off that the writer of said sentence is a closed-minded *** (to say it nicely).

TheShadowScout

Actually allowing cheap class change might loose them players. For one, it'd be easy to try out everything, and thus many would loose motivation to keep playing their latest alt trough the content. For another, some people would leave in disgust if they see all the others change class to follow the latest FotM trend (BtW, equipment is pretty easy in most cases, thanks to guild stores and bank-sharing between alts). Heck, cyrodil might be full of dragonknights...

IF there ever would be a class change option, it definitely should cost a hefty sum of crowns. Say, 5000 at least. That way most people wouldn't go for it and level an alt instead (or if they just want to test something, make a character on the PTS), and only those really desperate would pay up for a class change. Personally I would even say, there'd be no reason to allow it at all until and unless they add a new class to the game... (if they did that, add a new class, then it would however become important, for those who already filled all their character slots...)

newtinmpls

I go the other way; ES never had classes that cut you out of any ability/ armor or whatever - they were only ever starting points. In fact the whole "pseudo preist" (oh excuse me I mean Templar) class shows that the original designers never actually played any ES games and were obviously totally unfamiliar with the world. This class system is an unfortunate throwback to original D&D and it's fighter/ mage/ cleric/ theif.

Yes, there are always going to be FOTM folks. Don't care.

AngryNord

newtinmpls wrote: »

I go the other way; ES never had classes that cut you out of any ability/ armor or whatever - they were only ever starting points. In fact the whole "pseudo preist" (oh excuse me I mean Templar) class shows that the original designers never actually played any ES games and were obviously totally unfamiliar with the world. This class system is an unfortunate throwback to original D&D and it's fighter/ mage/ cleric/ theif.

Yes, there are always going to be FOTM folks. Don't care.

The Templar class in ESO is pretty much the same as the Crusader class in Morrowind/Oblivion

newtinmpls

I didn't care for Oblivion for many reasons.

In Morrowind, I mostly played specialty classes - I think the default name was "adventurer"

AngryNord

There was a Crusader class in Morrowind too, and the Templar class still closely resembles that class.

Vostorn

I agree class change should be possible, especially that this game discourage playing alt (Cadwell quests showing it).

However, the fee should NOT be cheap. It should be more like thousands of crowns or hundred thousands of gold (yes, it must be doable by gold too, this would add a money sink).

Making it cheap will implies that people will change their class following what they are going to do and it would be sad to see 99% of tanks being dk and 99% of healers being templars.

I like the diversity of templates in eso and I don't want to loose it. But I also would like to be able to play another class without having to do all the story again, especially with such a difficulty ease.

dodgehopper_ESO

I'd rather we were able to unlock and open up other Class skills. Make it something you earn the right to do, but once you do earn that right you could have access to another class line. Then again I never did like Classes separating what abilities you could learn. Its just not very TES-like.

BurtFreeman

unlock the classes!
then the game will become even more interesting, in role playing and in large variety of builds.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

you can, u have 8 character slots
a mmo needs classes, otherwise everybody would be running the exact same build, now theres a couple of em
and an insta class change option, NO

Tre_775

I think it would be a great idea as long as your level would be reset to 1.

TheShadowScout

BurtFreeman wrote: »

unlock the classes!
then the game will become even more interesting, in role playing and in large variety of builds.

Unlocking classes will only lead to too many people cherry-picking the best skills and thos playing as clones, build-wise. It would have been possible if they made it like that from the beginning, balanced skills against each other instead of classes... but they didn't, and doing that now would require more effort then they would be willing to spend - it'd mean a complete redoing of all their game, they won't go for it.

Tre_775 wrote: »

I think it would be a great idea as long as your level would be reset to 1.

And that would be rather suboptimal.
Starting over at level 1, with some/half/all your quests that allowed levelling already done? No way that'd work, with only grinding as your sole way to level up.
Starting over at level 1, resetting all the quests? Just make an alt.

The viable point of class change would be to allow those who don't have the slots, time or patience to go for an alt, but have a character they already spent a lot of time on levelling/crafting research to experience a new class (for a hefty crown cost - no way this ought to be done by in-game gold, the developers need income to show a profit so the suits don't pull the plug on the ESO servers).
I am not in favor of the idea, but I also wouldn't deny it to those who really want it... as long as they pay for it. Heavily.

BurtFreeman

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Unlocking classes will only lead to too many people cherry-picking the best skills and thos playing as clones, build-wise. It would have been possible if they made it like that from the beginning, balanced skills against each other instead of classes... but they didn't, and doing that now would require more effort then they would be willing to spend - it'd mean a complete redoing of all their game, they won't go for it.

where is the logic in your answer? is just in the opposite of what are you thinking.
at this time we have CLASSified skills, that means access to few ability by categorization.
ulocking the class we have access at all skill and means exponential number of build.

i am not really into math, but seem pretty logic even to me.

stewhead2ub17_ESO

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

"
Every class should be able to do the same things any other class can do. Instead of focusing on the uniqueness of each class they all need to be the same since someone is bound to complain if his/her class is just a bit weaker compared to any other class.

.

/boggle

spawn10459

I say remove classes and allow any race to pick up any 3 skill lines.

mtwiggz

This discussion has been played to death already.

Personally I'm not one who would really care either way. I enjoy that in most MMOs the decisions you make are usually quite final when it comes to classes. At the same time I would love to play a max level Templar or DK, but don't have the time - or enough medication - to force myself to do the VR grind two more times.

I don't think that being able to change classes should be allowed. If it was I would definitely take advantage of it though.

lathbury

learn to live with your decisions ppl. I dont want to see every build the exact same which is what would happen if you removed classes.

Mettaricana

changing classes sounds just fine if we have to make it where you have to go to an npc or location like the capitol to change it and have all the skills level separately. i mean seriously whats restricting us? i can be a black smith a clothier and a wood worker and an alchemist and an enchanter why can't i decide to branch out on my combat skills. if anything it'll make the desire to keep playing going and keep the incentive to hunt for skyshards and skill points and at the rate we going if they just gonna keep upping the vet level cap more skill points to throw into a second or third class.

also it'll let players create alternate role versions of themselves like become a more healer like or tank like class rather than a mainly dps class.

newtinmpls

lathbury wrote: »

learn to live with your decisions ppl. I dont want to see every build the exact same which is what would happen if you removed classes.

Have you no imagination at all??

Granted, if this was possible, all of my characters would have familiars.

Rox83

bertenburnyb16_ESO wrote: »

you can, u have 8 character slots
a mmo needs classes, otherwise everybody would be running the exact same build, now theres a couple of em
and an insta class change option, NO

FF14(and 11 before it) Did just fine allowing players to swap classes.

spawn10459 wrote: »

I say remove classes and allow any race to pick up any 3 skill lines.

I don't know about that but maybe some sort of cooldown to swap from one class to the other. Have it free once every 24hrs after that pay increasing amounts of gold if you keep changing it that day.

Fizzlewizzle

BurtFreeman wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Unlocking classes will only lead to too many people cherry-picking the best skills and thos playing as clones, build-wise. It would have been possible if they made it like that from the beginning, balanced skills against each other instead of classes... but they didn't, and doing that now would require more effort then they would be willing to spend - it'd mean a complete redoing of all their game, they won't go for it.

where is the logic in your answer? is just in the opposite of what are you thinking.
at this time we have CLASSified skills, that means access to few ability by categorization.
ulocking the class we have access at all skill and means exponential number of build.

i am not really into math, but seem pretty logic even to me.

I get his logic, and from a honest standpoint it is flawless.
There are people who play to win and be the best, which will always become a carbon copy of the most successful build.
The majority however tend to play however they want. I myself would go for a Combo of Nightblades' Siphoning, with Templars Restoring Light and Sorcerers' Deadric Summoning, since i'm more of the healer/ support type who doesn't like to fight himself, and rather stays save.

Main reason i mained a Templar was because i love being a support.
Being a pure support however doesn't help you much when you play solo, which is where NB shines more, as they can support and deal damage at the same time.
A Sorc has the added bonus that you don't have to fight alone, even as a support, with the pets they offer.
(Atronach + Clannfear + Winged Twilight, and Summon Shades from the NB line for a personal army.)

If they were to do a class removal (and let everyone use every skill tree) you would have a lot more options and content.
No one would be OP compared to any other player, as both could (potentially) do the same, and no one would be restricted to any sort of playstyle. There aren't enough skill points to max out everything, and a lot of (passive) skills have restrictions when you use them (as they only support a certain skill or skill tree's skills).

AhPook_Is_Here

I've always liked the idea of being able to change class. ES games never were about classes to begin with and the achievement system makes altiing pointless.

PivotalDan

I personally dont think changing class should be allowed, that is what you Alts are for IMO.

However I do think respeccing should be gold drivem, but with only a small fee that increases with each use.

Cogo

Everyone have the freedom to choose whatever class they want. You can choose 8 chars with different classes.
I don't understand this thread....

Junipus

The problems are:

1. This isn't a TES game. They have only the IP which means they get to use names, locations, lore etc. It has as much to do with TES RPG as Fallout does. People have a hard time understanding that.
2. People are treating it with the same approach as other MMOs if they're used to playing them. You really can play any role you want with any class. I've done end game content with a templar dps, a DK healer, a stamina sorc, a sorc tank, a NB tank, a NB healer, a sorc healer and a templar tank. It's only armour and weapon use that limits your roles here, and any class can use any of them.
3. Play as/how you want doesn't automatically mean you'll be as optimised as another building that's FOTM. Any class change will be abused by a LOT of people wanting to change to be as competitive as the guy that just killed them in PvP.
4. Promoting it with gold or crowns cost will only help those with more money than skill to try something they saw that gave max dps or heals instead of actually learning the mechanics of their class, the weapons and the game and improving things that way.

I have far more respect and time to help those who are sticking with gimped builds than those who want to be able to change to whatever they want, whenever they want, to try and be number one.

While you might genuinely want to try other classes without leveling OP, that's not how any potential system would be used.

RobDaCool

Yeah would make sense, these new RPGs restrict you to everything but killing it seems, and killing for what? Clothes.

Fizzlewizzle

Cogo wrote: »

Everyone have the freedom to choose whatever class they want. You can choose 8 chars with different classes.
I don't understand this thread....

If you were maxed out at the end of the main story (for your alliance) i would totally agree with you.
But doing all quests (main and side) for all 3 alliances (Normal, Silver and Gold) won't even get you to max.
You basically have to play this game from start till end 4 times just to get a good feel of what every class has to offer.
(And that's without taking into account Alliance war, Crafting, Traits, Horses and other account restricted content)

I'm the type of guy that doesn't click through a quest just so i can follow a marker.
Every NPC is voiced. Every NPC has its own story, Every Quest has its own tale to tell.
I'm still on my first playthrough, since early access, on a single class. And i still need to do (basically) all Gold content.

The only reason i have been able to enter Gold content is because i focused on the main story of silver so i could enter Gold for the skyshards.

AlnilamE

I disagree. It's much better to have different characters of different classes so you can switch to what you need by simply relogging.

Someone asked if people against the idea have no imagination. We have the same imagination as all the stam DPS out there running Ravager and Caltrops, or the magicka DPS running Skoria.

We do have 8 character slots. And you don't have to do all the quests to reach max level. Just do a variety of things that interest you.

Tolmos

I would only be for this system if you did like Final Fantasy 14 and made each person re-level each class; allowing 1 character to have every class, but only if they level every class independently. That would save people from having to make tons of alts, while at the same time not cheapening the choice of what class you chose.

lastango

I think a class change could be allowed as a one time thing before level 10-20... or before a certain critical point...

Once you get your feet wet... see how the game works... you begin to understand things you couldn't have anticipated.

Things really didn't make sense or click for me until around levels 15-20... but I had already invested an extra $60+ in consumables etc that I'd never see again by then... so - I'm kind of married to my character at this point.

You don't get a true sense of what your character looks like... moves... is capable of until you've already made a no turning back commitment.

I would have liked an appearance change option as I left coldharbour... I had no idea how doofy my guy looked until I went live...

I wear a helmet so I don't have to laugh at the face I created.

BurtFreeman

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

I get his logic, and from a honest standpoint it is flawless.

i give you an agree for most of your write.

just 2 consideration, becouse i am an as***
- play to win: a winners is never behind the build, is behind his gaming skill. i mean we can have 10000 players using one build and a bunch of winner: they will be just the exactly same persons over and over, and they will probabily win with any builds. unfortunately is not my case and fortunately becouse i play a good looser role.
- soloing, is not really a big deal with any class in eso: for example i can soloing with my templar without any comboes, just using puctiring sweep, the first templar skil that kb and heal too. i can, but i don't, becouse is boring, but with that skill you can easily survive.