The big problem with the Bolt Escape nerf

RadioheadSh0t

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Not true. Any good streaking Sorc knows that if someone has a gap closer beat on you, to do a 180 and streak through them and get away while they're breaking CC.

Doesn't work if there are more than one person chasing and the chaser can rotate his camera just as fast as I can. Pretty easy to tell when the Sorc activates Bolt Escape and isn't in your view anymore to swing the camera around behind you where you'll quickly find a Sorc at 12m distance from you instead of 15m. Bolt isn't like Cloak where the changing escape angles can beat anyone even if they are fast with the mouse. Bolting around objects is the best form of guaranteed escape we have.

Yeah if there's more than one person the tactics change, but that's not what I'm talking about. But I also have successfully turned and streaked through chasing groups of 3-4 people and gotten away.

Maybe your not familiar with this tactic, so I'll explain it: you wait until a charge hits, streak into them, and by the time the break you should be far enough away that they can't gap close. Pretty simple, very effective, but something not a lot of Sorcs do. They're too preoccupied with trying to get away that they don't realize when they can't.

Tankqull wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Not true. Any good streaking Sorc knows that if someone has a gap closer beat on you, to do a 180 and streak through them and get away while they're breaking CC.

Doesn't work if there are more than one person chasing and the chaser can rotate his camera just as fast as I can. Pretty easy to tell when the Sorc activates Bolt Escape and isn't in your view anymore to swing the camera around behind you where you'll quickly find a Sorc at 12m distance from you instead of 15m. Bolt isn't like Cloak where the changing escape angles can beat anyone even if they are fast with the mouse. Bolting around objects is the best form of guaranteed escape we have.

jip - and the mighty streak through them is easily negated by simply charge while blocking...

You can streak someone while charging. And even if they get a knockdown, break and streak through them and the concept is exactly the same. It's actually better if they're closer to you when you streak through them.

Erock25

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Not true. Any good streaking Sorc knows that if someone has a gap closer beat on you, to do a 180 and streak through them and get away while they're breaking CC.

Doesn't work if there are more than one person chasing and the chaser can rotate his camera just as fast as I can. Pretty easy to tell when the Sorc activates Bolt Escape and isn't in your view anymore to swing the camera around behind you where you'll quickly find a Sorc at 12m distance from you instead of 15m. Bolt isn't like Cloak where the changing escape angles can beat anyone even if they are fast with the mouse. Bolting around objects is the best form of guaranteed escape we have.

Yeah if there's more than one person the tactics change, but that's not what I'm talking about. But I also have successfully turned and streaked through chasing groups of 3-4 people and gotten away.

Maybe your not familiar with this tactic, so I'll explain it: you wait until a charge hits, streak into them, and by the time the break you should be far enough away that they can't gap close. Pretty simple, very effective, but something not a lot of Sorcs do. They're too preoccupied with trying to get away that they don't realize when they can't.

And I've gotten away from 20 people chasing me at once. Doesn't change the fact that without LOS obstacles, a single person with a charge who knows what they're doing has potential to lock down a Sorc no matter if they're using Streak and need to double back to get their stun or they use Ball of Lightning so they don't need to double back. It is easy to hold block after a charge. It is easy to use a speed buff and roll dodge with a bow equipped. Now if there are two people charging a sorc and they're halfway competent they can absolutely wreck him with the newly introduced charge CC where you lose control of your character for a split second.

RadioheadSh0t

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Not true. Any good streaking Sorc knows that if someone has a gap closer beat on you, to do a 180 and streak through them and get away while they're breaking CC.

Doesn't work if there are more than one person chasing and the chaser can rotate his camera just as fast as I can. Pretty easy to tell when the Sorc activates Bolt Escape and isn't in your view anymore to swing the camera around behind you where you'll quickly find a Sorc at 12m distance from you instead of 15m. Bolt isn't like Cloak where the changing escape angles can beat anyone even if they are fast with the mouse. Bolting around objects is the best form of guaranteed escape we have.

Yeah if there's more than one person the tactics change, but that's not what I'm talking about. But I also have successfully turned and streaked through chasing groups of 3-4 people and gotten away.

Maybe your not familiar with this tactic, so I'll explain it: you wait until a charge hits, streak into them, and by the time the break you should be far enough away that they can't gap close. Pretty simple, very effective, but something not a lot of Sorcs do. They're too preoccupied with trying to get away that they don't realize when they can't.

And I've gotten away from 20 people chasing me at once. Doesn't change the fact that without LOS obstacles, a single person with a charge who knows what they're doing has potential to lock down a Sorc no matter if they're using Streak and need to double back to get their stun or they use Ball of Lightning so they don't need to double back. It is easy to hold block after a charge. It is easy to use a speed buff and roll dodge with a bow equipped. Now if there are two people charging a sorc and they're halfway competent they can absolutely wreck him with the newly introduced charge CC where you lose control of your character for a split second.

This is just not true (that a charge can lock down a sorc no matter what). Let's try and stick to 1v1 evasiveness for ease of argument (any sorc can outrun 20 people, that's irrelevant here). You can counter charge with streak easily, just like I described, and by the time the CC is broken, you should easily be out of charge distance. I know this because I've done it a million times, and it's not really a hard concept to grasp, and once you're out of gap closing range, no bow-dodge player should be able to keep up, it just doesn't cover as much ground. You absolutely don't need LoS to lose a gap closer, try it sometime.

Makkir

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Erock25

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Not true. Any good streaking Sorc knows that if someone has a gap closer beat on you, to do a 180 and streak through them and get away while they're breaking CC.

Doesn't work if there are more than one person chasing and the chaser can rotate his camera just as fast as I can. Pretty easy to tell when the Sorc activates Bolt Escape and isn't in your view anymore to swing the camera around behind you where you'll quickly find a Sorc at 12m distance from you instead of 15m. Bolt isn't like Cloak where the changing escape angles can beat anyone even if they are fast with the mouse. Bolting around objects is the best form of guaranteed escape we have.

Yeah if there's more than one person the tactics change, but that's not what I'm talking about. But I also have successfully turned and streaked through chasing groups of 3-4 people and gotten away.

Maybe your not familiar with this tactic, so I'll explain it: you wait until a charge hits, streak into them, and by the time the break you should be far enough away that they can't gap close. Pretty simple, very effective, but something not a lot of Sorcs do. They're too preoccupied with trying to get away that they don't realize when they can't.

And I've gotten away from 20 people chasing me at once. Doesn't change the fact that without LOS obstacles, a single person with a charge who knows what they're doing has potential to lock down a Sorc no matter if they're using Streak and need to double back to get their stun or they use Ball of Lightning so they don't need to double back. It is easy to hold block after a charge. It is easy to use a speed buff and roll dodge with a bow equipped. Now if there are two people charging a sorc and they're halfway competent they can absolutely wreck him with the newly introduced charge CC where you lose control of your character for a split second.

This is just not true (that a charge can lock down a sorc no matter what). Let's try and stick to 1v1 evasiveness for ease of argument (any sorc can outrun 20 people, that's irrelevant here). You can counter charge with streak easily, just like I described, and by the time the CC is broken, you should easily be out of charge distance. I know this because I've done it a million times, and it's not really a hard concept to grasp, and once you're out of gap closing range, no bow-dodge player should be able to keep up, it just doesn't cover as much ground. You absolutely don't need LoS to lose a gap closer, try it sometime.

And just like i described, what if the person knows what they're doing and holds block right after their charge? You keep saying the same thing and refuse to acknowledge that block negates your pro strat of CCing them. I'm not saying that people hold block 24/7 and they especially won't after the next update, but anyone worth mentioning in pvp is block cancelling their charges, which completely negates your strategy.

Tankqull

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Not true. Any good streaking Sorc knows that if someone has a gap closer beat on you, to do a 180 and streak through them and get away while they're breaking CC.

Doesn't work if there are more than one person chasing and the chaser can rotate his camera just as fast as I can. Pretty easy to tell when the Sorc activates Bolt Escape and isn't in your view anymore to swing the camera around behind you where you'll quickly find a Sorc at 12m distance from you instead of 15m. Bolt isn't like Cloak where the changing escape angles can beat anyone even if they are fast with the mouse. Bolting around objects is the best form of guaranteed escape we have.

Yeah if there's more than one person the tactics change, but that's not what I'm talking about. But I also have successfully turned and streaked through chasing groups of 3-4 people and gotten away.

Maybe your not familiar with this tactic, so I'll explain it: you wait until a charge hits, streak into them, and by the time the break you should be far enough away that they can't gap close. Pretty simple, very effective, but something not a lot of Sorcs do. They're too preoccupied with trying to get away that they don't realize when they can't.

And I've gotten away from 20 people chasing me at once. Doesn't change the fact that without LOS obstacles, a single person with a charge who knows what they're doing has potential to lock down a Sorc no matter if they're using Streak and need to double back to get their stun or they use Ball of Lightning so they don't need to double back. It is easy to hold block after a charge. It is easy to use a speed buff and roll dodge with a bow equipped. Now if there are two people charging a sorc and they're halfway competent they can absolutely wreck him with the newly introduced charge CC where you lose control of your character for a split second.

this becomes worse the more people actually charge you - and gets horrible if only one of them has a horrible charging path stunning you for up to 2seconds... (had a fight the other day within a barn where i was charged by somone on the lvl below, who than ran while charging around the barn to get back in from the other side closer to the steps upward while i was beaten to death from his mate next to me without the option to do anything^^)

Septimus_Magna

@BigTone

I completely agree, the way I see it the Ball of Lightning morph makes escaping very easy because you dont take damage from most projectiles. Streak on the other hand is mainly used for the damage and stun, in my eyes this is also one of the few effective skills against reflecting DKs, Cloaking NBs and stam rollerblades.

The 50% cost increase for consecutive BE's is completely ridiculous in my opinion, this makes the skill useless for escaping AND useless for fights. If a NB can cloak every 2.9 seconds without penalties I want a half-decent way to counter that. Spamming AOE to detect cloaking NBs is not a viable way, this is just a waste of magicka which makes it even harder to win the fight.

The solution is simple, remove the cost increase of BE when you successfully hit someone with an attack. This will solve the problem of the endless bolting sorcs when they cant win a fight without completely removing the utility of the most iconic sorc skill. We dont see a cost increase for casting reflective scales, cloak or temp heals in rapid succession. Why would BE be any different?

Ezareth

I think the real issue is the fact that Nightblades using Blur and full Medium armor can outrun a group of people on horses for a couple minutes (and are a cloak away from escape). I watch a NB do this last night while sprinting with Retreating Maneuvers on my own Nightblade.

If you take away a sorcs mobility, NB mobility becomes unmatched (it already is) and most nightblades will copy this tactic and instead of sorcs always getting away NBs will always get away and nothing will have changed.

Sprinting continuously is going to need a heavier penalty or successive casts of blur for the speed effect will.

Septimus_Magna

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Not true. Any good streaking Sorc knows that if someone has a gap closer beat on you, to do a 180 and streak through them and get away while they're breaking CC.

Doesn't work if there are more than one person chasing and the chaser can rotate his camera just as fast as I can. Pretty easy to tell when the Sorc activates Bolt Escape and isn't in your view anymore to swing the camera around behind you where you'll quickly find a Sorc at 12m distance from you instead of 15m. Bolt isn't like Cloak where the changing escape angles can beat anyone even if they are fast with the mouse. Bolting around objects is the best form of guaranteed escape we have.

Yeah if there's more than one person the tactics change, but that's not what I'm talking about. But I also have successfully turned and streaked through chasing groups of 3-4 people and gotten away.

Maybe your not familiar with this tactic, so I'll explain it: you wait until a charge hits, streak into them, and by the time the break you should be far enough away that they can't gap close. Pretty simple, very effective, but something not a lot of Sorcs do. They're too preoccupied with trying to get away that they don't realize when they can't.

And I've gotten away from 20 people chasing me at once. Doesn't change the fact that without LOS obstacles, a single person with a charge who knows what they're doing has potential to lock down a Sorc no matter if they're using Streak and need to double back to get their stun or they use Ball of Lightning so they don't need to double back. It is easy to hold block after a charge. It is easy to use a speed buff and roll dodge with a bow equipped. Now if there are two people charging a sorc and they're halfway competent they can absolutely wreck him with the newly introduced charge CC where you lose control of your character for a split second.

This is just not true (that a charge can lock down a sorc no matter what). Let's try and stick to 1v1 evasiveness for ease of argument (any sorc can outrun 20 people, that's irrelevant here). You can counter charge with streak easily, just like I described, and by the time the CC is broken, you should easily be out of charge distance. I know this because I've done it a million times, and it's not really a hard concept to grasp, and once you're out of gap closing range, no bow-dodge player should be able to keep up, it just doesn't cover as much ground. You absolutely don't need LoS to lose a gap closer, try it sometime.

If you're faster with BE than bow rolling sprinting NB you must have a ton of magicka regen and cost reduction. This in turn means that you are low on spell damage, probably around 1.8-2k buffed. Sorcs with decent spell damage (around 2.5k) wont be able to BE that fast/long so I think its only relevant for a small group of sorcs. Have you considered that the infinite resource builds need to be nerfed, not the skill itself?

RinaldoGandolphi

I probably should not say this but Bolt Escape has a very easy counter:

Bolt Escape Counter Potion
[*] Blessed Thistle
[*] Columbine
[*] Namira's Rot


Effects
Restore Stamina and Increase Stamina Regen by 20%
Become Immune to Knockback and Disabling effects for 15 secs
Grants Major Expedition Increasing Movement Speed by 40% for 40 secs

There you go, Every Sorc in the game using Bolt Escape just became cannon fodder. He can't stun you, You can run like the wind, and spam Crit Rush to your hearts content and ride his back clear across Cyrodiil to his death without any fear of being CC, stunned, or any of that.

I'll make samples to anyone in the Covenant upon request

BigTone

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I probably should not say this but Bolt Escape has a very easy counter:

Bolt Escape Counter Potion
[*] Blessed Thistle
[*] Columbine
[*] Namira's Rot


Effects
Restore Stamina and Increase Stamina Regen by 20%
Become Immune to Knockback and Disabling effects for 15 secs
Grants Major Expedition Increasing Movement Speed by 40% for 40 secs

There you go, Every Sorc in the game using Bolt Escape just became cannon fodder. He can't stun you, You can run like the wind, and spam Crit Rush to your hearts content and ride his back clear across Cyrodiil to his death without any fear of being CC, stunned, or any of that.

I'll make samples to anyone in the Covenant upon request

Anyone who claims that "Nightblades needed cloak to ignore detect pots because our escape is countered by a potion and a sorc's isn't" should read this.