Assuming ZoS Removes Veteran Levels. What Happens To Attributes And Skill Points?

MAOofDC

Assuming they remove Vet levels and all maxed level characters become level 50. What happens to the 13 extra Attributes and Skill points?

I've asked this question to a lot of people who want the vet levels gone and I have yet to get an answer or even an acknowledgement of the issue. They just gloss over that if they get what they want the will nerf EVERY maxed level character already in the game.

The way I see it only two things can happen.

1. ZoS takes away the 13 Attributes and Skill points from every Vet 14 as they revert back to level 50. This is a not an optimal solution, as it would force players who have used all the points to rethink and make major changes to their builds. The lost of the skill points alone will remove 6 fully morphed skills and from a build. Or decrease the amount of passives available to that build. The attribute point loss will also weaken the character in general by decreasing the available resources. This would also *** off a lot of people who were counting on those resources, skills and passives.

2. ZoS decides to "grandfather in" characters that are already Vet 14. In some ways this is an even worse idea because it will create an elite class of character with more base resources, skills and/or passives. Allowing them to dominate newer players and characters in all aspects of the game. This would create a lot of angry players who missed out and would hurt the game in the long run. Then there is the another issue that will crop up. What happens if said grandfathered in players decide to respec? Do they lose the points?

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

In my opinion the main reason that I can figure out for people wanting to have Vet levels removed. Is because they want to be maxed level ASAP so that they can win at PvP or run the end game PvE content. Reaching maxed level sooner will not necessarily make you a better PvPer or PvEer in fact it will give you less time to figure out a build you like or how to use the build you have chosen effectively.

So I ask again, what happens to the 13 extra Attributes and Skill points?

I welcome your thoughts, comments or recriminations.

Garwulf

Do not worry about that as I suspect the game will be dead before that occurs. The Fun Wowsers will have made sure of that.

Elhanan

While I understand your concerns, this problem is one that could be easily solved without nerfing anyone.

One easy solution would be to give 2 attribute/skill points at levels 11, 21, 31, and 41-50 (or some similar distribution). All VR chars keep their extra skill points and lowbie chars get extra skill points along the way.

MissBizz

Maybe those attribute points would be unlocked upon reaching Champion Rank X.

Nebthet78

I am thinking that while they are going to remove VET levels, they are not actually going to really disappear, but will instead be converted and called something else instead. Otherwise, they have a crapload of work ahead of them to convert every single piece of armor and weapon in this game, let alone balancing out our levels and what not.

Zorrashi

Not sure. But it is a good question.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Or third option: You get a skill and attribute point every X Champion Points you earn up to a cap of 14.

Honestly though, I would be fine if they took the attribute points away. If it's gone from everyone then it's still even for everyone in PvP, and the PvE content is so easy that the points don't really matter. I would also be okay with them taking the skill points away too so long as they introduced new ways (ie zones/quests/dungeons) to regain those skill points.

NateAssassin

If they removed veteran ranks, they would most likely add more than 50 levels and however much XP you have into veteran gets added past level 50, so many veterans might end up being level 70, 90, etc.

MAOofDC

So I just had another thought. What if they remove the Vet level but because they still want you do do Cadwell's Silver and Gold they increase the level cost so that you don't get to level 50 until you get to Craglorn? A scary thought I know But I can see ZoS trolling everyone that way.

MAOofDC

NateAssassin wrote: »

If they removed veteran ranks, they would most likely add more than 50 levels and however much XP you have into veteran gets added past level 50, so many veterans might end up being level 70, 90, etc.

This wouldn't work because the "I need a win button" folks will still need to level up which they already don't want to do.

NateAssassin

MAOofDC wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

If they removed veteran ranks, they would most likely add more than 50 levels and however much XP you have into veteran gets added past level 50, so many veterans might end up being level 70, 90, etc.

This wouldn't work because the "I need a win button" folks will still need to level up which they already don't want to do.

VR14 still probably wouldn't have to level up if they translate the XP they have into normal levels, they would end up being max still just with "normal" type levels.

Gidorick

This is why I've suggested that ZOS convert Vet ranks to 26 levels and do the following:

• Raise the level cap to 76
• Distribute the XP between the levels
• After level 50, lower skill point gain to every 2 levels
• allow players to gain 1 CP per post 50 level

Here is the link to that thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169671/remove-vet-raise-level-cap-concept/p1

Gidorick

MissBizz wrote: »

Maybe those attribute points would be unlocked upon reaching Champion Rank X.

I really don't think this would work because players earn Champion Ranks for all players... so would a player who has a champion rank of... I dunno... 300 be able to create a new character and automatically have 13 skill points?

MAOofDC

Gidorick wrote: »

This is why I've suggested that ZOS convert Vet ranks to 26 levels and do the following:

• Raise the level cap to 76
• Distribute the XP between the levels
• After level 50, lower skill point gain to every 2 levels
• allow players to gain 1 CP per post 50 level

Here is the link to that thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169671/remove-vet-raise-level-cap-concept/p1

I saw this and I point out again the people who want the Vet levels gone want them gone because they don't want to level anymore. Calling the Vet levels something else will not fix the problem.

Gidorick

MAOofDC wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

This is why I've suggested that ZOS convert Vet ranks to 26 levels and do the following:

• Raise the level cap to 76
• Distribute the XP between the levels
• After level 50, lower skill point gain to every 2 levels
• allow players to gain 1 CP per post 50 level

Here is the link to that thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169671/remove-vet-raise-level-cap-concept/p1

I saw this and I point out again the people who want the Vet levels gone want them gone because they don't want to level anymore. Calling the Vet levels something else will not fix the problem.

Not wanting to level isn't the issue... it's the "grindyness" of the levels. Check out that thread... I explain it in a little bit of detail to illustrate my point. gradual progression is the key. Not level 49... BAM VR1...now go get 1 million XP. Now another million... now another million. It needs to ease the player into higher progression requirements.

Now if people honestly don't want to level, I find that an odd things to say for an RPG.

Exstazik

. ZoS takes away the 13 Attributes and Skill points from every Vet 14
So it will take a while to get some skill points from pvp/achievements and ofc it takes you to grind more CP to get back some power.All is maded to keep you stay at game more

MAOofDC

Exstazik wrote: »

. ZoS takes away the 13 Attributes and Skill points from every Vet 14
So it will take a while to get some skill points from pvp/achievements and ofc it takes you to grind more CP to get back some power.All is maded to keep you stay at game more

If they remove these points they are gone for good unless they put them back in somehow. Remember the skill points from PvP you are talking about are ALREADY in the game.

dodgehopper_ESO

I think Option 3 is more likely. Champion points are meant to do away with Veteran levels. Spellcrafting is going to add an awful lot of new skillpoints to the game. We are going to need a way to buy those skills. I fully suspect that what they're going to do is create some manner of conversion for Champion points to Skillpoint bonus. Say for instance it is 3:1. If you have 300 Champion Points you might have 100 Skill points extra than you would have had otherwise. I'm not certain of this ratio, but something like this seems to be a logical option.

Oh, and I don't think the Attribute Point bonus matters much if everyone is balanced to the new Level 50 Attribute Level. I wouldn't suspect doom and gloom when there are perfectly viable options available to ZoS on this.

Gidorick

I really dislike the idea of ANY additional earnable rewards (skill points and gear) being tied to champion points. This is because champion points are distributable to ANY character. Level 3 character with 500 champiin points. No problem!

Korah_Eaglecry

Garwulf wrote: »

Do not worry about that as I suspect the game will be dead before that occurs. The Fun Wowsers will have made sure of that.

Its posts like this that make me miss the LOL button.

MAOofDC

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Oh, and I don't think the Attribute Point bonus matters much if everyone is balanced to the new Level 50 Attribute Level. I wouldn't suspect doom and gloom when there are perfectly viable options available to ZoS on this.

While this will be true for PvP it will make a big difference in PvE since most of the end game bosses have an attack that do a lot of damage. That's why most end game groups want people to have at least 20k in health. So unless they rework the amount of health, magicka, stamina you get per point so that there is no effective change this will not work for both types of gameplay.

NewBlacksmurf

Well glad you asked.....

The simple solution is for any VET character they keep what they have but any future vet skill/stat pts would be gained via each individual cp earned by one character.

It could be every 2-4 champion point as well but that's complicated to track and measure.
Gear and item wise....

The vet req would slide into a champion point requirement either by character or by account

It's not perfect but it simplifies a wacky system

MAOofDC

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Well glad you asked.....

The simple solution is for any VET character they keep what they have but any future vet skill/stat pts would be gained via each individual cp earned by one character.

It could be every 2-4 champion point as well but that's complicated to track and measure.
Gear and item wise....

The vet req would slide into a champion point requirement either by character or by account

It's not perfect but it simplifies a wacky system

How does this simplify the way things work now? So instead of saying "Vet 14 DPS LFG Vet Pledge" in zone you want people to say "Champ 254 DPS LFG gold key 85 steed 85 lover 84 ritual" or some other more convoluted combination. Because people being people will want their DPS to be build a certain way to the "right"

Gidorick

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Well glad you asked.....

The simple solution is for any VET character they keep what they have but any future vet skill/stat pts would be gained via each individual cp earned by one character.

It could be every 2-4 champion point as well but that's complicated to track and measure.
Gear and item wise....

The vet req would slide into a champion point requirement either by character or by account

It's not perfect but it simplifies a wacky system

How does this simplify the way things work now? So instead of saying "Vet 14 DPS LFG Vet Pledge" in zone you want people to say "Champ 254 DPS LFG gold key 85 steed 85 lover 84 ritual" or some other more convoluted combination. Because people being people will want their DPS to be build a certain way to the "right"

That would be terrible. This is why I think the Champion system needs to be a tangential form of progression. If they just made more levels players would just get champion points AS they level... players would keep their eye on the preverbal carrot of the next level.

Vaelen

If ZOS is smart, then they will do a conversion for those hardcore gamers who have already reached VR14... oh wait, didn't they already do that with the 70 CPs when the Champion System came out? I'm thinking ZOS is intending to do a hard ceiling nerf to all VR14 players (the players who intend to do most of the Crown Store shopping soon and devote more time into this game). Maybe ZOS doesn't care about its hardcore player base anymore? But we'll find out soon.

NewBlacksmurf

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Well glad you asked.....

The simple solution is for any VET character they keep what they have but any future vet skill/stat pts would be gained via each individual cp earned by one character.

It could be every 2-4 champion point as well but that's complicated to track and measure.
Gear and item wise....

The vet req would slide into a champion point requirement either by character or by account

It's not perfect but it simplifies a wacky system

How does this simplify the way things work now? So instead of saying "Vet 14 DPS LFG Vet Pledge" in zone you want people to say "Champ 254 DPS LFG gold key 85 steed 85 lover 84 ritual" or some other more convoluted combination. Because people being people will want their DPS to be build a certain way to the "right"

You're thinking wrong

The whole point of removing VR levels is to remove the VR concept

It will be a level 50 ... LFG
The game will have gear and skill/stats but be based on a person's ability at end game vs a level
This bring more people to get her but it keeps the difficulty

You'll begin to value a person's decisions and ability to play well with other people and builds

Honest question....as I've not seen it today but are ppl questioning champion skills and # of champ leaves today?
I don't think so but maybe I'm wrong.

Imagine playing asking if ppl have a level 50 skill of xyz vs VR level... + xyz ...

Simple but functional should be the result

Gidorick

I think there will always be those player that needs to feel 1337... once VR is removed and players cannot ask someone who wants to join their group what VR rank they, are those players will just ask how may CP a player has.

MAOofDC

Vaelen wrote: »

If ZOS is smart, then they will do a conversion for those hardcore gamers who have already reached VR14... oh wait, didn't they already do that with the 70 CPs when the Champion System came out? I'm thinking ZOS is intending to do a hard ceiling nerf to all VR14 players (the players who intend to do most of the Crown Store shopping soon and devote more time into this game). Maybe ZOS doesn't care about its hardcore player base anymore? But we'll find out soon.

They did indeed give out up to 75 CPs if a player had a character that was vet 14 AND had 1,000,000 exp banked on it. This was right good and proper, but CPs don't give attribute or skill point. The question I was asking how are they going to replace, if they bother to, the lost points?

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Well glad you asked.....

The simple solution is for any VET character they keep what they have but any future vet skill/stat pts would be gained via each individual cp earned by one character.

It could be every 2-4 champion point as well but that's complicated to track and measure.
Gear and item wise....

The vet req would slide into a champion point requirement either by character or by account

It's not perfect but it simplifies a wacky system

How does this simplify the way things work now? So instead of saying "Vet 14 DPS LFG Vet Pledge" in zone you want people to say "Champ 254 DPS LFG gold key 85 steed 85 lover 84 ritual" or some other more convoluted combination. Because people being people will want their DPS to be build a certain way to the "right"

You're thinking wrong

The whole point of removing VR levels is to remove the VR concept

It will be a level 50 ... LFG
The game will have gear and skill/stats but be based on a person's ability at end game vs a level
This bring more people to get her but it keeps the difficulty

You'll begin to value a person's decisions and ability to play well with other people and builds

Honest question....as I've not seen it today but are ppl questioning champion skills and # of champ leaves today?
I don't think so but maybe I'm wrong.

Imagine playing asking if ppl have a level 50 skill of xyz vs VR level... + xyz ...

Simple but functional should be the result

Again the question wasn't answered what happens to the lost points, and how will they replace them if they bother to.

Vicodine

The best solution to a problem is usually the easiest. And I'll be honest with you. Killing you... is hard....

On a more serious note

13 quest / achievement awards giving you skill AND attribute points. I mean certain achievements already give you SP.

They are NOT getting rid of Cadwell's silver/gold. That's 4 zones for silver meaning 4 points. 4 zones for Gold giving you another 4.

If you would count starter islands that's 5-per alliance.

The rest in Craglorn for completing parts of the main story there. (OR in Trials as we currently have 3)

That even gives them room to expand and give you more points in the future. One or more points per zone, each time they would bump the VR, they instead give it to you as a reward. Same effort, same time, only problem is you have to get that in a way that is a given. But that's already there - skill point rewards for main story quests. No moar grinding - you have Champion Points for that

MAOofDC

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

NewBlacksmurf

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.