Why the next generation mmorpgs are failing
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LameoveR✭✭✭✭
Most cars still four-wheeled. And runs on internal combustion engine, consuming gasoline.joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
Not at all.
Let's compare this to a car. Do car companies release cars with the same gadgets from 10, 15, 20 years ago? At some point the de facto standard becomes power windows with more features and not hand cranks with less features. or else no one will buy that car. Would you buy a car that had built in gps as the gimmick but still relied on hand cranked windows? No you would expect it to have powered windows.
Yea, we need new concept. No gimmicks.
Edited by LameoveR on May 30, 2015 7:07AM2 -
Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The reason MMOs die off is because everyone can become self sufficient rather quickly via alts and horizontal progression
Imagine if your combat character could not be a crafter, and it was the only character you had (or maybe 2 at most on the server like SWG did)
You absolutely HAD to rely on others and interact. You couldnt do everything with one toon. It simply could not be accomplished. Even if you dual specced, you came up short in something. Your alt if you had one was similarly locked into place.
This new generation of "alts until you have it all yourself" has killed in game economies and social circles more than any other phenomenon in MMOs.
Honestly we need about 1/2 of the skill points we are able to obtain now to make this possible, or double the costs to unlock skills and trees. With 350ish available, its more than plausible to have 3-4 full craft trees, 3 armor types, all class skills, all guild skills, and 2-3 weapon trees simultaneously unlocked on one character. This is the cancer that kills MMOs.
No one needs a weaponsmith, alchemist, provisioner, or anything else because they can provide entirely for themselves. No one needs to get a healer for a group because the groups now all have alts they can switch around to. Its become a catastrophe. Once vertical progression stops, horizontal progression in this game slowly removes all need for another human body to do anything outside of "endgame" and even that is being impinged on because those of us that started as X role are now Y Z A B C as well.
Edited by Rylana on May 30, 2015 8:23AM@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin6 -
Raash✭✭✭✭The reason MMOs die off is because everyone can become self sufficient rather quickly via alts and horizontal progression
Imagine if your combat character could not be a crafter, and it was the only character you had (or maybe 2 at most on the server like SWG did)
You absolutely HAD to rely on others and interact. You couldnt do everything with one toon. It simply could not be accomplished. Even if you dual specced, you came up short in something. Your alt if you had one was similarly locked into place.
This new generation of "alts until you have it all yourself" has killed in game economies and social circles more than any other phenomenon in MMOs.
Honestly we need about 1/2 of the skill points we are able to obtain now to make this possible, or double the costs to unlock skills and trees. With 350ish available, its more than plausible to have 3-4 full craft trees, 3 armor types, all class skills, all guild skills, and 2-3 weapon trees simultaneously unlocked on one character. This is the cancer that kills MMOs.
No one needs a weaponsmith, alchemist, provisioner, or anything else because they can provide entirely for themselves. No one needs to get a healer for a group because the groups now all have alts they can switch around to. Its become a catastrophe. Once vertical progression stops, horizontal progression in this game slowly removes all need for another human body to do anything outside of "endgame" and even that is being impinged on because those of us that started as X role are now Y Z A B C as well.
I agree wholeheartly with you. Its definatly kills the game over time.
Choices and consequences are important to keep a game interesting.0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭OP is overthinking it. Go back 40-50 years and trace what games were popular when.
The simple answer is that gamers are getting tired of mmos. More and more gamers are moving on to the next gaming genre. Not saying that mmos will disappear from the face of the planet. There will be always be a core audience. Just like there will always be people who play bridge or board games.
The one thing that could generate mass public interest in mmos is virtual reality but that is years, maybe a decade, in the future and will need super sized development budgets for triple-A quality games.2 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The reason MMOs die off is because everyone can become self sufficient rather quickly via alts and horizontal progression
Imagine if your combat character could not be a crafter, and it was the only character you had (or maybe 2 at most on the server like SWG did)
You absolutely HAD to rely on others and interact. You couldnt do everything with one toon. It simply could not be accomplished. Even if you dual specced, you came up short in something. Your alt if you had one was similarly locked into place.
This new generation of "alts until you have it all yourself" has killed in game economies and social circles more than any other phenomenon in MMOs.
Honestly we need about 1/2 of the skill points we are able to obtain now to make this possible, or double the costs to unlock skills and trees. With 350ish available, its more than plausible to have 3-4 full craft trees, 3 armor types, all class skills, all guild skills, and 2-3 weapon trees simultaneously unlocked on one character. This is the cancer that kills MMOs.
No one needs a weaponsmith, alchemist, provisioner, or anything else because they can provide entirely for themselves. No one needs to get a healer for a group because the groups now all have alts they can switch around to. Its become a catastrophe. Once vertical progression stops, horizontal progression in this game slowly removes all need for another human body to do anything outside of "endgame" and even that is being impinged on because those of us that started as X role are now Y Z A B C as well.
I absolutely hate being able to do and max everything with one character, but I also don't want to be restricted in how many alts I can create, being an altaholic and all that. Do you see some middle ground inbetween?Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
KhajitFurTrader✭✭✭✭✭
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Wasn't that the gimmick of Vanguard? Is Vanguard still around? No? I thought as much.Imagine if your combat character could not be a crafter, and it was the only character you had (or maybe 2 at most on the server like SWG did)
You absolutely HAD to rely on others and interact. You couldnt do everything with one toon. It simply could not be accomplished. Even if you dual specced, you came up short in something. Your alt if you had one was similarly locked into place.
Um, no. Forced interaction and mandatory sociability are not the way to go any longer, not in this day and age. People use games as a form of escapism, and if these games and their systems remind them too much of RL, they will quickly go looking for something else, and the market is far, far bigger today than it was, say, ten years ago.This new generation of "alts until you have it all yourself" has killed in game economies and social circles more than any other phenomenon in MMOs.
Honestly we need about 1/2 of the skill points we are able to obtain now to make this possible, or double the costs to unlock skills and trees. With 350ish available, its more than plausible to have 3-4 full craft trees, 3 armor types, all class skills, all guild skills, and 2-3 weapon trees simultaneously unlocked on one character. This is the cancer that kills MMOs.
In a game, it feels great to be independent from others in as many aspects as possible. It feels great to to be able to only socialize where one deems it to be favorable, where it serves one's own means and ends, and where one is in complete control over the initialization, duration, and termination of social contacts. MMO developers have learned to listen to the crowds, where the voices of the egomaniacal individualists have grown louder and louder over the years, and so MMOs today tend to cater to them in the first place as a selling point. Ironically, this is the antithesis to the very essence of an MMO, which is why they're in decline today.
Truly social games are niche today, in a world where social networks rule.
Edited by KhajitFurTrader on May 30, 2015 9:19AM0 -
Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
These games still exist except for WAR. there is no argument there. fyi WAR was EAs rival game to AOC. It only lasted about 2 years before ea pulled the plug do to terrible subscription numbers.
Anyways, existing for 10 years, some hanging onto a thread, while the others continue to chug along catering to a small fan base doesn't constitute a healthy thriving mmorpg. At some point development slows down, new proposed ideas and addons are abandoned (I'm looking at you eso spell crafting) and the dwindling player base is left with the original gimmick and a few updates here and there.
Ok that's a whole sea of shifting goal posts I'm not going to get into. It's hard enough trying to get people to agree on how much content GW2 has added since release: does Season 1 count as bi-weekly new content, or not because it was temporary? Or is the problem that many of the releases only focused on one game mode: if they released a dungeon and you refuse to play dungeons then you should be allowed to count that as a week when nothing was released, if you only play dungeons that was the only week something was released. Does the fact that they stopped making small updates to make a boxed expansion mean they're not making anything in that time, or does it count towards the eventual release?
Trying to expand that to cover half a dozen games would take forever and probably never reach a consensus.
But you seem to be classifying all MMOs as either the most successful ever released at one time or another (UO, EQ, WoW) or a failure and I think that's a massive over-simplification. Is Dragon Age: Inquisition a failure if Skyrim sold more copies? (I'm not sure it did, but that's not the point.) Or are they both successful if they made a profit and one is simply more successful than the other? Why can't it be the same with MMOs?joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
That's my point. Companies need to analyze player behavior, look at trends, figure out what works and doesn't, hire knowledge managers. Learn from the player base. If your not holding a players attention your doing it wrong. Hold the players attention with rewards,challeneges, and social interaction. The stuff I mention are not gimmicks. I believe they should be standard to the core of every mmorpg and not a novelty. The gimmicks are novelties that get boring overtime.
You and I have very different definitions of gimmicks.
The payment model is the number one reason I started playing Guild Wars 1, Guild Wars 2 and ESO. To me it's a huge part of the game because it not only determines what this game will cost me and what the developers expect me to pay (not always the same) but, if they're doing it right, how they design the game.
The Guild Wars games are built around their buy-to-play business model. They're designed with the intention that players will take breaks, that some will play one or two days a week and others will play every day for 6 months then stop completely for 3 months then come back. And this feeds into a lot of the systems in game, like the fact that 'end game' equipment is easy to get and new tiers aren't added often. (They've added 1 since release, and already confirmed there will be no new ones in the upcoming expansion.) Which means returning players aren't facing the daunting task of months playing catch-up, they can jump straight back into playing as they were before. Obviously ESO has only recently made the switch from pay-to-play but I'm interested in seeing what they do with it in future.
And yet according to you that's just a "gimmick novelty" to draw players in, something they'll get bored with quickly. But player housing and mobile phone apps to let you chat outside the game are core features that no MMO can survive without?
I've not played any of the other games on your list, but I seriously doubt they are (as you implied) EQ clones with only that one difference to set them apart, or that a mobile phone app and "dynamic trade systems" (whatever that is) would cause a sudden leap in their player base. Honestly if I ever saw a game that's existed for years trying to draw in more players on the basis that they've added any (or all) of the things you listed that would convince me that they have no idea what they're doing or how to appeal to players.
And incidentally while I'm on the subject GW2 doesn't have raids and does have a world that evolves based on player actions - they're currently in the process of re-building the main city after it was destroyed in an attack by the lead villain of one of the story arcs added after release. They have a LFG tool that works. They have a world wide tournament system with sponsors and advertising at conventions which they're trying to get established as an esport (waste of time IMO but then I'm not a PvPer). IMO they do allow more character customisation than ESO because the transmutation system lets you put any skin onto your items - you can have BiS gear and make it look like the starter stuff (or the other way around) or a novelty festival item. You can change your skills and everything else about your build any time you're out of combat (and unlock all of them) so you only need to re-roll if you want to be a different class.
So the only things it's missing from your list are integrated voice chat, player housing, the ability to design your own outfits, and a mobile app for trade and chatting. (They looked at developing one very early on and apparently decided it's not worth it.)
And as mentioned above I'm not sure what a 'dynamic trade system' would be, so I'm not sure if it has one or not. Big rewards I won't get into because what that involves is very debatable and leads to a lot of complications like power creep. It's not at all a simple thing to do.
As I said I've not played any of the other games you listed but I imagine they all have at least some of the things on your list.
(Oh and when someone killed the king in Ultima Online it was a big news story for two reasons: it should have been impossible because he was supposed to be invincible but the person controlling him turned it off accidentally and this was the very, very early days of MMOs so they were surprised anyone would be so carelessly violent as to attack him just to see if they could.)joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
call me delusional then
. You can't discredit my OP though. Because my OP was not about content. It is about gimmicks, rewards, socialization, and challenges. Throwing content at the player certainly helps by is not the end all be all solution.
And this is the point where I realise I should have given up before writing those two posts. If you think the actual content of the game is largely irrelevant compared to things like player housing, phone apps and voice chat we clearly have completely different ideas of what an MMO should be, or even what one is.PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
"Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"3 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭Actually the genre is getting alot more active. Those who've been following the genre from lets say before 2005 know this very well. Just like ESO its almost 1.5 year old and the game is full priced and still sells, thats success itself. Wow is finally losing its grib, about freaking time.Edited by Sausage on May 30, 2015 9:51AM0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭Actually the genre is getting alot more active. Those who've been following the genre from lets say before 2005 know this very well. Just like ESO its almost 1.5 year old and the game is full priced and still sells, thats success itself.
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=mmorpg, mmo&cmpt=q&tz=
Edited by wrlifeboil on May 30, 2015 9:52AM1 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
You really expect me to believe that? When Ive seen the growth of the genre with my own eyes. Im 100% sure when ESO goes F2P it breaths easily 2+ year of life into this, for example. Back in the days, F2P usually meant some couple month population boost.0 -
Rylana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KhajitFurTrader wrote: »Wasn't that the gimmick of Vanguard? Is Vanguard still around? No? I thought as much.
Um, no. Forced interaction and mandatory sociability are not the way to go any longer, not in this day and age. People use games as a form of escapism, and if these games and their systems remind them too much of RL, they will quickly go looking for something else, and the market is far, far bigger today than it was, say, ten years ago.
In a game, it feels great to be independent from others in as many aspects as possible. It feels great to to be able to only socialize where one deems it to be favorable, where it serves one's own means and ends, and where one is in complete control over the initialization, duration, and termination of social contacts. MMO developers have learned to listen to the crowds, where the voices of the egomaniacal individualists have grown louder and louder over the years, and so MMOs today tend to cater to them in the first place as a selling point. Ironically, this is the antithesis to the very essence of an MMO, which is why they're in decline today.
Truly social games are niche today, in a world where social networks rule.
Ultima Online - 18 years
Star Wars Galaxies - 8 1/2 years
Everquest - 16 years
EvE - 12 years
Lineage II - 12 years
All of these games have/had hard limitations on scope of what an individual player can do for themselves and require social interaction and dependency to thrive (unless one runs multiple accounts and plays 12 hours a day, which is not the norm)
Except for SWG which folded due to the release of SWTOR despite still being profitable and having a small but very hardcore community (that even spun off three different major attempts to emulate it, unheard of for any other cancelled MMO), all of these games beat every other game for longetivity, durability, and retention. Despite some having lost the casual crowd you seem to refer to, they are healthy and in most cases thriving.
The only modern MMO that can boast 10+ years of longetivity is WoW, which is the aberration everyone falls back on to justify every other reason MMOs in the new generation "have to change with the times." Every MMO since has been a wow-clone or attempt at one, have almost universally been a flash in the pan or disappointment to the herd that nomadically moves from MMO to MMO, or folded due to financial non-sustainablity. The reason? All of those games had the same problem ESO does, every player can do it all by themselves with no need for true interaction (outside of say trials just for the sake of bodies).
So we come full circle back to how I am correct. Every wonder why the older generation of MMO players are so sentimental about the old days? Because the games were better before WoW destroyed MMOs and the way they are developed forever.
Edited by Rylana on May 30, 2015 9:58AM@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin3 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Here is why MMO games are failing
-people come to play them and in large masses they go and pressure the developers to change the game to be like features in another game vs playing the game as the developer intended.
Just looking at this forum and zone chat alone
Good luck developers-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5013 -
Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
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Ultima Online - 18 years
Star Wars Galaxies - 8 1/2 years
Everquest - 16 years
EvE - 12 years
Lineage II - 12 years
All of these games have/had hard limitations on scope of what an individual player can do for themselves and require social interaction and dependency to thrive (unless one runs multiple accounts and plays 12 hours a day, which is not the norm)
Except for SWG which folded due to the release of SWTOR despite still being profitable and having a small but very hardcore community (that even spun off three different major attempts to emulate it, unheard of for any other cancelled MMO), all of these games beat every other game for longetivity, durability, and retention. Despite some having lost the casual crowd you seem to refer to, they are healthy and in most cases thriving.
The only modern MMO that can boast 10+ years of longetivity is WoW, which is the aberration everyone falls back on to justify every other reason MMOs in the new generation "have to change with the times." Every MMO since has been a wow-clone or attempt at one, have almost universally been a flash in the pan or disappointment to the herd that nomadically moves from MMO to MMO, or folded due to financial non-sustainablity. The reason? All of those games had the same problem ESO does, every player can do it all by themselves with no need for true interaction (outside of say trials just for the sake of bodies).
So we come full circle back to how I am correct. Every wonder why the older generation of MMO players are so sentimental about the old days? Because the games were better before WoW destroyed MMOs and the way they are developed forever.
That's a flawed argument. 'Morden' MMO usually means one that came out after WoW. That certainly seems to be how you're using the term.
Since WoW itself is only 10 years old it's impossible for any modern MMO to have lasted more than 10 years. But there are plenty which are still going and seem likely to achieve that. Here's one list, which you can sort by release date: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_gamesPC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
"Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Here is why MMO games are failing
-people come to play them and in large masses they go and pressure the developers to change the game to be like features in another game vs playing the game as the developer intended.
Just looking at this forum and zone chat alone
Good luck developers
Microwave Oven effect. Once you use a microwave oven, you can't do without the convenience of one ever again.Edited by wrlifeboil on May 30, 2015 10:55AM4 -
stewhead2ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MyNegation wrote: »dos and don'ts of making a game that will keep the people playing.
megaservers where you will encounter a certain player only once, even if he is in your friend list, where all the faces you see you see only once.--> out
named server with community, when you more or less encounter the same players in leveling, dungeons and PVP and personal and guild reputation matters --> in.
**I tend to agree here, I think people have a tendency to feel more of a sense of community and ownership with their own server, however I think the "megaserver" thing is more of a technical choice.**
fast travel that reduce the whole world to pin map --> out
caravan/ship/whatever only to zone, or at least only to major hubs in the zone. all travel inside the zone should be made by foot interacting with the environment.--> in
**I disagree. While it can be fun to travel more traditionally (and I have just walked a zone instead of running) these days you sometimes don't have much time to get your game on and don't want to spend it moving through the zone.**
flying mounts/ early available fast mounts that reduce your interaction with the world and easy for you to avoid danger and interaction -->out.
fast mounts as a status symbol only to maxed level chars that finished some long term deed ( pvp rank, PVE raid drop, super crafted mount that require all crafts maxed out etc) -->in
**I like the idea of "earning" some things and having to accomplish something.**
instanced open world where you party side by side with your friend and he vanish in a thin air because he already finished this quest last night. or solo personal story--> out
mixed levels maps where you have high level hubs in a low level map, whether it is a dungeon, entrance to PVP instance, or simply an elite zone in the map that have high level players interest, in order for the lowbies to see high level players and interact with them.--> in
easily soloable leveling and open world where you take out map group bosses barely using a healing potion, and where nobody bothers you with "/w can you help me pls with the camp of doom? " --> out.
challenging leveling and open world which is very possible to solo, but challenging and require you to use resources in order to survive encounter, and have a recuperation down time after the encounter to heal up, where you will want to duo with someone just to make it faster, where you have elite zones with side quests where you need a small group to prevail--> in.
**Again, the idea is nice but many people today don't want to spend their gaming time "recuperating". Remember in EQ when you had to actually rest to recover mana and consume foodstuffs? Try going back now and feel the frustration.**
self sufficient classes or roles, that can do everything CC, DPS, and self healing very well. and really don't need nobody else to play with.--> out
interdependent classes or roles where single class/ role either don't have all the tools in their box- or have a real disadvantage at some aspect. where two players will supplement each other and not override each other. where the power of two grouping players is higher than the sum of two players by themselves. --> in
**I tend to agree about the "all inclusive" characters but I'm a realist. The game needs to be accessible to all. While I don't create or play my toons in that manner (I enjoy having weaknesses and faults) I understand other's desires to be self sufficient.**
it is sad that todays devs forgot the basics and build their games around cool gimmicks, which are truly cool but they don't last for long... and can't replace the basics.
**I think much of it is more of learning from the past. The best MMO's (imo) take what works and refine it to further the experience.**
Edited by stewhead2ub17_ESO on May 30, 2015 11:09AM0 -
Heromofo✭✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »
Microwave Oven effect. Once you use a microwave oven, you can't do without the convenience of one ever again.
Yup lol but for a supposed *Next Gen MMO* they should be looking at what people like about mmos and find a way to improve on it.
Take warframe for this they took movement in normal style mmos and then added Parkour and dance dance movement to it.
Now all future mmo movement will be compared to what warframe did because if they can do it why can't *insert mmmo* do it.
Especially because warframe is an old mmo running on an engine even older.
Buuut take this as an opportunity
Warframe movement
https://youtu.be/86DFeTqLp3s
Possible movement added to ESO (quick mod of skyrim as an example) 2 year old video
https://youtu.be/XOj7WAAABm0
Fact is eso plays like a 5 year old mmo with a different combat system and alot more is expected these days as games like destiny,warframe and what not are the new classed mmos and game developers must adapt.
Especially because this is the type of mmos console players are used to and they are trying to get in on the market.
You move with the times or get left behind.
My 2 cents anyway
Edited by Heromofo on May 30, 2015 12:05PM3 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Yup lol but for a supposed *Next Gen MMO* they should be looking at what people like about mmos and find a way to improve on it.
Take warframe for this they took movement in normal style mmos and then added Parkour and dance dance movement to it.
Now all future mmo movement will be compared to what warframe did because if they can do it why can't *insert mmmo* do it.
Especially because warframe is an old mmo running on an engine even older.
Buuut take this as an opportunity
Warframe movementhttps://youtu.be/86DFeTqLp3s
Possible movement added to ESO (quick mod of skyrim as an example) 2 year old videohttps://youtu.be/XOj7WAAABm0
Fact is eso plays like a 5 year old mmo with a different combat system and alot more is expected these days as games like destiny,warframe and what not are the new classed mmos and game developers must adapt.
Especially because this is the type of mmos console players are used to and they are trying to get in on the market.
You move with the times or get left behind.
My 2 cents anyway
Wow, that would be a cool way to bring in the old 'Acrobatics' skill into the game. Perhaps that will be part of what the Thieves Guild brings to the table in terms of skills? Nevermind that, I would hope Acrobatics & Athleticism is open to more than just thieves, otherwise the Monk class would not be possible (among others).
I think at the core of what the OP brings up, there's a yearning for leaving a mark on the world that every player wants to make. SWG did that because organizations of players worked together to build towns, tackle content, and assist each other with needs. SWG had Rangers for instance who hunted animals for the best quality leather, meat and bones. You had Squad Leaders who made a team more effective. You had various medical professions which all tied into one another. You had entertainers (who provided mental/psychological healing/buffing). You had the doctors who provided physical healing/buffing. You had crafters which built the materials making it all possible for everyone, and the crafters needed everyone to help them get their supplies to build. It felt like a real economy, and teamwork was meaningful. I don't expect any other game to bring it to SWG levels, but it might be nice if they could bring in a lion's share of that kind of thought behind the game systems. Ultimately the game systems are what make a game fun and replayable. A nice storyline helps, and is in fact wonderful, but once you've hit v14 once, twice, three times it becomes monotonous.
Give the players something to build/repair for needed equipment and that will be good. Alchemy and Provisioning are great because they are consumable. It might be nice if instead of a hireling, a player had a farm where they could grow their own Alchemical or Provisioning materials. Perhaps the hireling works their farm. The Hard Crafts in ESO are a bigger problem though. Some of the best gear requires a 'dropped' set more or less. Whether it comes from PVP, Undaunted, Dolmen, Dungeon or Open World, these dropped sets can and often do supercede anything crafted by a player. The more egregious thing is that these sets have a determined look that you just have to live with, like it or not. Wouldn't it be a better game if at least potentially a crafter could provide you any set or gear piece needed? If that gear needed repair/replacement everyone wins, crafter and players. This would create an in-game economy that was actually alive. The problem with many MMO's is that in the F2P market, the in game economy is low lying fruit for lining developer pockets. I do believe though that if players had to repair and/or replace all gear while simultaneously opening up access of all gear and gear sets to everyone, the game economy would be a lot better, and the game play would actually be more important.
While I've only dabbled in rift a bit to say hello to friends, I have seen what they do with player dimensions (Housing) and its pretty fantastic. This sort of creative avenue is what helps add replayability for people, and it is tied into the activity of guilds and players in the regular game. The more a game has this kind of interdependent input and output, the better.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
Elloa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I mostly agree with the points written by @Danikat
my contributions to this thread with be this one: No MMO on PC will ever manage to repeat the success of World of Warcraft. We can mock WOW as much as we want, it still have today more than 7 millions of players suscribed. No other MMO can dream even half of that population.
But does numbers make everything?
Sure it's fun to play that big game everyone is talking about. you feel like part of the gang. But I believe that nowadays, it's a lot better when games renounce to please the masses, and try to do their own thing and succeeed at it. Might be more in the line of a niche game, but the community is a lot better when truely dedicated to its game, smaller and driven by the desire of seeing their game succesful.
I believe that ESO is not a game for everyone and it should not try to be. Yet it still appeal to different crowd and style of gamer and that's great.
I disagree that modern MMORPG are failing. But maybe we are failing as community, because we have become impatient, demanding, un loyal and undedicated, unable of commitment and effort. Yes, we can partially attribute the wrongs to Blizzard which badly educated the players to have everything easy, but seriously....in the end of day, aren't we responsible for ourselves?
If MMO are failing today, it's because the players behave as spoiled kids and devellopers are getting white hair, trying to satisfy our unrealistics wishes.
;Edited by Elloa on May 30, 2015 12:48PM2 -
PKMN12✭✭✭✭✭I see it in another perspective tho... To me it seems that what is causing games failure or success when launching is down to if the hyped expectations of it is met or not.
Usually game companies present text lists + some screenshot or a short non-telling trailer to present the "features" of the upcoming game and that paints a picture into the potential players minds of what is to come.
Here is an example
- A living breathing world where players actually affect the game world- turns out to be player only phased areas that no one but the player can see and experience - but non other.
So while this isnt exactly wrong in its describing it isnt necessarily what whas pictured by the masses.
Apply this into just about anything and you start seeing what might be the cause of why people get disapointed and leave the games after a few months of the release.
I think games would be better off by actually showing and telling the features as they are and not boosted highlights that leaves alot to player imagination.
Thats what I think.
this is VERY true. To go along wit hthat, it is customers themselves hyping themselves up. "Its skyrim online.......with FRIENDS" is a great example in regards to this game. Anyone with common sense would tell you this was not going to be like skyrim at all, but many of the TES fans who have never played any other kind of game refused to belived that.0 -
PKMN12✭✭✭✭✭Actually the genre is getting alot more active. Those who've been following the genre from lets say before 2005 know this very well. Just like ESO its almost 1.5 year old and the game is full priced and still sells, thats success itself. Wow is finally losing its grib, about freaking time.
no....no its not. you would really have to have no idea what you are talking about to hoenstly belive wow is actually ever going to die due to another game.0 -
traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭...and microwaves generally make *** food unless you prep it in very special ways.
Players did shape the industry. They were asked what they wanted... and they wanted cake 24/7. They thought cake was what they wanted. Short term gratification and yummy fast progression. Instant endgame grinding as fast as you can join. Cake cake cake and more cake...
As I said before... sometimes the spinach has vitamins in it. Too much cake will make you sick.
Someone mentioned Vanguard. it ran out of money in development, the devs used their connections to get SOE to bail them out... and it never got finished. It was also under a lot of pressure to become "more player friendly" after the bailout and time/$ better spent on finishing was used to make a consolidated new player island/experience, change leveling curves etc. It never got a chance to fail on its merits. it was already being morphed before it went live and never got to even ESO feature completion levels. It had one of the best crafting systems ever made, and the diplomacy system was revolutionary (though it needed some work) and it got flushed down the toilet SOE is well known for this (see below).
SWG even murdered itself in the search fro more casual players. SOE has always been more fascinated with the bird in the bush at the expense of the birds in their hands. EQ next has the world EQ fans love and massively cool technologies... under a layer of crap cartoony modern FTP nonsense the industry thinks is where games need to be. It is like the new modern edited Bugs Bunny cartoons. I like Bugs bunny don't I? WTH why don't I like this? EQ started to kill itself around PoP.. instant travel 2 clicks away from everywhere. Epic world travel reduced to 2 load screens and a 30 second walk. But players hate walking! The *** are too fat. it is good for them!
Lots of people say that the time has passed and MMOS aren't popular. Not even CLOSE ... Bud. We have massive day one sales and player counts.... and no retention (or people go back to wandering around in WOW after they finish the super friendly solo game of the last 6 months). A lot of these people are looking for a new MMO home. A few do latch on to each game (we are the survivors of ESO land rush). There should be more of us.
Has the business model changed so the companies really don't want retention anymore? Maybe. Some MMOs seem geared for a new player rotation and have little interest in keeping their older players.
People always brush it off as "oh people are just attached to their first MMO" or "the wonder is gone because we all have played a lot MMOs now."
Absolutely not. EQ was my 3rd MMO (UO and Meridian 59 were both pretty good and earlier then EQ). SWG was like my 7th.... vanguard was like 15th? not even sure then.
I'm not world weary about MMOs. They have actually declined in quality.
Less chicken dinner, and more chicken sandwich. We no longer sit down for a family meal when we play MMOs... we order from the same buffet of fast food choices off the brightly lit wall board and eat in uncomfortable plastic chairs, designed to increase customer turnover... and the shake or ice cream machine is always broken (you ever notice that?).
Edited by traigusb14_ESO2 on May 30, 2015 1:11PM1 -
philco25b16_ESOSoul ShrivenMany things to get from the answers but imho most look from a wrong side
- Players expectations:
Everyone kinda expect to find a new MMO THE best game for themselves, I know some people are more reasonable but still, most people expect a better game than what they already played.
The problem is we are all different, we like different things, played different games, have different IRL backgrounds, there's no way to put all thoses playstyles in one game because a thing one's like is hated by another. - Bad communication:
Game companies keep telling us before each new release how their new MMO will be way better, how we will be able to fullfill all our whishes and whatever. Marketing guys limit the spread of usefull informations to attract more people.
Once you confront all the [snip] with player expectations, it's bye bye for a big chunk of the population - Large audience goal:
Because of WoW, suit guys at the top of gaming companies expect huge numbers of people.
To do that, they ask devs to make MMOs with the broadest appeal, problem is at launch, because of limited development time/money, we get less than perfect systems in every part of the games (and often far worse)
It's time game companies go back to a working method: choose a specific design direction, make your game perfect for THAT playstyle, get happy customers THEN expand to new directions/customers without forgetting your primary design and thus get more customers. The time for MMOs with half-assed solutions in every directions should be over...
Note: Players and game companies should stop thinking about THE solution to make THE best MMO, there's no such thing. People like different things, different genres, different kinds of movies, books, music, entertainment activities, we can have different MMOs for different people and successfull ones, the same way the RTS genre got Starcraft and the Total War Serie.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on May 30, 2015 7:45PM3 - Players expectations:
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Kublakan✭✭✭If we want a more social game what we need is not a game forcing you to group. And its the mistake many new mmo are making. What should be implemented are new ways to level, new ways to play. SWG is a good example because many people were playing as entertainers, crafters, hunters, doctors, politicien, etc... Whitout having to group to level and were always interacting with other players because they needed them in order to acheive their goals and leveling.
If the only option left to need other players are grouping for killing, then youll get what we have today. Its ok, but not enough.2 -
Blackmoon777✭✭✭I would gladly play as an alchemist in eso, even sacrificing my combat capabilities, just wondering through all those provinces (no fast travel for everyone!) collecting ingredients and finding new ones, searching for rare alchemy books and better alchemy equipment
trading with ppl who need my potions and exchanging expirience with other alchemists, grouping with some warriors to obtein void salts coz i alone cant kill storm atronach!!! And giving them in exchange few restoration potions. Then i would go back to my laboratory (my home) in Valenwood and experiment witch new potions
Just a story, but it would be good story...
Edited by Blackmoon777 on May 30, 2015 2:51PM3 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I mostly agree with the points written by @Danikat
my contributions to this thread with be this one: No MMO on PC will ever manage to repeat the success of World of Warcraft. We can mock WOW as much as we want, it still have today more than 7 millions of players suscribed. No other MMO can dream even half of that population.
But does numbers make everything?
Sure it's fun to play that big game everyone is talking about. you feel like part of the gang. But I believe that nowadays, it's a lot better when games renounce to please the masses, and try to do their own thing and succeeed at it. Might be more in the line of a niche game, but the community is a lot better when truely dedicated to its game, smaller and driven by the desire of seeing their game succesful.
I believe that ESO is not a game for everyone and it should not try to be. Yet it still appeal to different crowd and style of gamer and that's great.
I disagree that modern MMORPG are failing. But maybe we are failing as community, because we have become impatient, demanding, un loyal and undedicated, unable of commitment and effort. Yes, we can partially attribute the wrongs to Blizzard which badly educated the players to have everything easy, but seriously....in the end of day, aren't we responsible for ourselves?
If MMO are failing today, it's because the players behave as spoiled kids and devellopers are getting white hair, trying to satisfy our unrealistics wishes.
;
Imma need you to stay around tho.
Any video you all have lately. I saw a post months ago but didn't follow your channel
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
mwsacto_ESO✭✭If they were failing they wouldn't be made. Unless your A baseball player with money to throw away on a dream.0
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NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mwsacto_ESO wrote: »If they were failing they wouldn't be made. Unless your A baseball player with money to throw away on a dream.
...if you make it, they will come...-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010