Why the next generation mmorpgs are failing
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Sunver✭✭✭The world is ending folks. People dont look for friendships and commitment, they choose half an hour long MOBAs over long relationships with guildmates in MMO. Selflessness is a rare attribute these days.
Integrating social options won't help because people simply dont want to socialize. They just want quick entertainment. I don't know maybe it's the way some people want us to be - its easier to rule people divided than united. Just compare your parents with you, or your children with you if you are a parent - the younger generation people are the more isolated from the rest of the world they want to be. So what if they have 5k friends on FB if they simply dont know each other...
So maybe the answer is not in the development of games, maybe it lies in the human hearts, or to clarify - in the changing of human hearts.
I cannot be sure if thats true but I can be sure of me and my environment changing over the years. When I was younger I rarely spent more than 10 hours in home(sleep included). All that time with friends. Didnt have a cellphone or a computer but I was genuinely happy. The IT gadgets took our homes and our minds by force, changing us. And while few years before we still had our needs for socializing with others, it was killed in the process. And little folks who start their lives with all these gadgets never develop this kind of craving.
Im sorry if I terrified any of you by pointing this out. Dont panic, simply remember that any computer will never replace a human being as your best companion(despite what they say about AI). If you feel your social life is damaged by IT gadgets, spend more time together with your family and friends. Your brain will repair itself
When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!7 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OP, You have so many good ideas I can't even touch upon all of them. I wish someone at ZOS would give you a job. I think if you had any power whatsoever you might really make a positive difference in this game.
You 100% have the right intent and the right ideas of how to keep people engaged and interested. People play mmo's for the PEOPLE. Giving people new and exciting ways to interact and compete would generate buzz and interest in the game.
The segregation between factions was just plain DUMB on zeni's part. It was a HUGE lost opportunity.
For PVP'rs- The fact that you can't glare and talk crap to your enemy in PVE zones and then take it to Cyrodiil to hash it out, just dumb. Really dumb. That right there would add so much to the game. Add in titles with true purpose or skill associated with them and imagine people interacting in Craglorn with their guild colors on, jumping around their enemies while they wait for the queue to pop.
For PVE'rs- imagine having 66% more people to play with. Imagine 66% more guilds to join. Imagine spamming zone chat and knowing more than your 1/3 (truly, 1/6) of the game can see and respond and INTERACT with you.
It's the lack of care and insight with things like this that lead to players not really caring about the game. When content is stalled and things are stale, people invest in each other more than in the actual game. And when you don't give them real and creative way to do that, AND you don't release content for 8+ months, you fail. And underneath all the other broken things about this game, that is the reason why it fails.
Great write up again. Thank you for posting.2 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭stewhead2ub17_ESO wrote: »"The games I listed above don't last and here's why."
While I don't necessarily disagree with some of your points, define "don't last". For example AoC is celebrating it's seventh anniversary this month, Rift has several years under it's belt and shows no sign of slowing down, etc..
AoC is a former she'll of what it used to be. It started with almost a dozen servers and is down to 2 I believe. I can tell you that player population is so low you can go through entire zones without running into another person. From a business perspective this is a fail. All business what to reach record breaking subscription numbers and sustain it for years to come. Not dwindle servers with a skeleton crew left for slow content development.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
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LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
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I was thinking the same thing.
Rift and The Old Republic were released in 2011.
Age of Conan was released in 2008.
Guild Wars 2 was released in 2012. (And Guild Wars 1 which has the same "gimmick" of being free buy to play just hit 10 years old.)
Aion was released in 2008.
Terra was released in 1996 so that one actually predates EverQuest.
(I don't recognise the acronym WAR and searching for 'MMO WAR' or even 'MMO W.A.R.' turned up nothing useful so I couldn't look that one up.)
All of those games are still running. Some of them have changed business model or received major updates (hardly surprising after several years) but that's not the same thing as not lasting. So I'd love to know what that does mean in this context.
These games still exist except for WAR. there is no argument there. fyi WAR was EAs rival game to AOC. It only lasted about 2 years before ea pulled the plug do to terrible subscription numbers.
Anyways, existing for 10 years, some hanging onto a thread, while the others continue to chug along catering to a small fan base doesn't constitute a healthy thriving mmorpg. At some point development slows down, new proposed ideas and addons are abandoned (I'm looking at you eso spell crafting) and the dwindling player base is left with the original gimmick and a few updates here and there.Legacy of Kain
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¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's a lot of pressure these days for any entertainment medium - from video games to books - to add new material every 30 to 90 days. Which is a really stressful proposition, because it's hard to craft quality material in just a few weeks. You can do it, but boy does it ever take a lot out of you and makes you really boring at parties.
I'm half-asleep and don't want to talk about my work. Buy me a drink or *** off.
Yet if you don't do it, people will just move on to something else. So you find yourself putting out average material just to make people - people you don't even get face time with - happy for a few more days.
Elder Scrolls shot itself in the foot with the 'new content every four to six weeks' quote. It was too ambitious, and sounded too much like a promise. It gave people a reason to lose faith in the product. You need to cultivate patient customers from the very beginning. From the first day of the alpha test you need to win loyalty and flexibility. Or else you'll be struggling to earn dollars every month because you'll be competing with every new and shiny thing on the market.
It only gets harder to gain loyalty and flexibility as time goes on. If the ESO team thinks console release is a reboot, a new first day and a chance to ignore all their previous mistakes... well, sorry but that's not how it works. You've been on the clock since before October 2012, when the devs were saying the system was built for 200 people on screen at all times. (starting around 13:32 on that video)
When in doubt, say less, show less, promise less. That way your loyal customers don't feel like they're being strung along, and when new materials does appear, it feels shinier because people didn't ramp their expectations of it up to unreasonable levels. When all's said and done, I think too many companies simply talk and promise more than they should.signing off2 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭As far as the social side goes IMO it is what you make it, in any game.
I actually live with my guild leader from Guild Wars 2. We didn't know each other before I joined her guild, but 8 months later we were close enough that when she needed a place to live and I had space to offer it seemed totally natural. I know other people who have met their husbands or wives and life long friends in those games with 'no' social interaction.
It's the same as in real life. You can use 'tools' designed to facilitate social interaction, go to events and groups intended to encourage people to get to know each other. Or you can simply talk to people whilst doing your own thing in your own time in the same place. It's not instant of course, but over time you get to know people anyway.
Agreed, but the developers need to do everything in their power to Grab the player base. Bring them into the world and make it easy for the player to socialize. Why none of these next ten mmos don't integrate voice chat from the start boggles my mind. Who wants to deal with vent for every pug group they encounter? The examples I came up with in my OP took me about 10 minutes to think of and they would not be hard to implement but would go a long ways in helping the players build those relationships. Coming back for more.Legacy of Kain
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LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »You over thought this it's very easy to explain why.
People complain because a new MMO that's only a day old doesn't have the same amount of content as wow that's been going for 10 years. They all leave and it bombs. It's happened with every MMO in the last 5 years.
That's no excuse. In today's day and age it's what is expected. If wow set the bar to be that high than upcoming competitive gaming companies need to meet that standard right out of the box on day one.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South2 -
liammozzb16_ESO✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
That's no excuse. In today's day and age it's what is expected. If wow set the bar to be that high than upcoming competitive gaming companies need to meet that standard right out of the box on day one.
Are you being serious? You expect a newly released game to have 10 years worth of content, story and items. A word hasn't been invented yet to describe how silly you sound.
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LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's funny how you blame MMOs for being the same but with gimmicks and then your solution includes a long list of gimmicks like e-sports, trading apps for your phone, etc.
And I also find it hilarious that a small fraction of the MMO forum posting gamers, which is a small minority itself, insist on describing the reality of how MMOs are played these days with a large portion leaving after a couple of months as "fail" when this is the core business model of the industry due to the player's own behavior.
And there are always attempts to find "solutions" to non-existent problems while missing the obvious: in those "glorious" olden days, players stuck around MMOs longer simply because the choices were very limited and likewise leave them after a shorter period of time these days because the choices are many.
It's not "fail", it's the reality of a market with a hundred choices instead of three. And it's a reality obviously embraced by ZOS when they removed the monthly sub as a requirement, which recognizes player's desires to take breaks and go do something else for a while.There's no need to make a "tough decision" about where to put your monthly sub money when none is required. You can just casually fade away and fade back in without the need for drama... although the dramatic "I'm quitting because..." posts are a habit that some find hard to break
That's my point. Companies need to analyze player behavior, look at trends, figure out what works and doesn't, hire knowledge managers. Learn from the player base. If your not holding a players attention your doing it wrong. Hold the players attention with rewards,challeneges, and social interaction. The stuff I mention are not gimmicks. I believe they should be standard to the core of every mmorpg and not a novelty. The gimmicks are novelties that get boring overtime.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South1 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
That's no excuse. In today's day and age it's what is expected. If wow set the bar to be that high than upcoming competitive gaming companies need to meet that standard right out of the box on day one.
Lol button... how much I miss you! A millenial, I'm guessing?1 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭The world is ending folks. People dont look for friendships and commitment, they choose half an hour long MOBAs over long relationships with guildmates in MMO. Selflessness is a rare attribute these days.
Integrating social options won't help because people simply dont want to socialize. They just want quick entertainment. I don't know maybe it's the way some people want us to be - its easier to rule people divided than united. Just compare your parents with you, or your children with you if you are a parent - the younger generation people are the more isolated from the rest of the world they want to be. So what if they have 5k friends on FB if they simply dont know each other...
So maybe the answer is not in the development of games, maybe it lies in the human hearts, or to clarify - in the changing of human hearts.
I cannot be sure if thats true but I can be sure of me and my environment changing over the years. When I was younger I rarely spent more than 10 hours in home(sleep included). All that time with friends. Didnt have a cellphone or a computer but I was genuinely happy. The IT gadgets took our homes and our minds by force, changing us. And while few years before we still had our needs for socializing with others, it was killed in the process. And little folks who start their lives with all these gadgets never develop this kind of craving.
Im sorry if I terrified any of you by pointing this out. Dont panic, simply remember that any computer will never replace a human being as your best companion(despite what they say about AI). If you feel your social life is damaged by IT gadgets, spend more time together with your family and friends. Your brain will repair itself
I don't believe this. People will socialize given the right incentive and design. People play these games because they want to be recognized. People want records to break. People want to impress their guild mates with their accomplishments. People want to show off that new shiny rare armor or a flaming two handed sword. People want to show off their prowess and skill. You telling me the majority of gamers want to play a single player mmo, don't feel like socializing snd fade into nothingness without making a difference in the mmo world? Just for pure personal entertainment?Legacy of Kain
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¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
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Lol button... how much I miss you! A millenial, I'm guessing?
Gen x. Played MUDs in high school, hacking into local library network to use telnet. What's your point?Legacy of Kain
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¥ampire Lord of the South3 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »
Are you being serious? You expect a newly released game to have 10 years worth of content, story and items. A word hasn't been invented yet to describe how silly you sound.
How much was SWTOR budget when released? Now who sounds silly. You telling me with a 150 mill budget a gaming company can't produce something better than wow right out of the box? Instead a good portion of the money was spent on godly expensive voice actors.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Old_Republic
With budgets like this for AAA mmorpgs the expectation is not unreasonable.Edited by LegacyDM on May 30, 2015 2:12AMLegacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South2 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
Gen x. Played MUDs in high school, hacking into local library network to use telnet. What's your point?
That you expect perfection to appear instantly as if by magic?0 -
PKMN12✭✭✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
How much was SWTOR budget when released? Now who sounds silly. You telling me with a 150 mill budget a gaming company can't produce something better than wow right out of the box? Instead a good portion of the money was spent on godly expensive voice actors.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Old_Republic
With budgets like these do AAA mmorpgs the expectation is not unreasonable.
considering WOW probably has now 1000's of millions of dollars put into the game, yes, yes it DOES sound unreasonable.0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
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considering WOW probably has now 1000's of millions of dollars put into the game, yes, yes it DOES sound unreasonable.
Well that's a different debate not worth getting derailed. Wonder where all that extra blizzard money went.... Wow looks and feels the same as it was 10 years ago except for periodic content releases...they overhauled the graphics engine a few years ago but it still looks, feels, and plays like meh. Nothing a new game shouldn't be able to meet standards wise.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
PKMN12✭✭✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
Well that's a different debate not worth getting derailed. Wonder where all that extra blizzard money went.... Wow looks and feels the same as it was 10 years ago except for periodic content releases...they overhauled the graphics engine a few years ago but it still looks, feels, and plays like meh. Nothing a new game shouldn't be able to meet standards wise.
content wise, yeah, sorry, you are delusional if you think ANY game, EVER could ever be created right off the bat with the amount of content WOW has.0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
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That you expect perfection to appear instantly as if by magic?
Not at all.
Let's compare this to a car. Do car companies release cars with the same gadgets from 10, 15, 20 years ago? At some point the de facto standard becomes power windows with more features and not hand cranks with less features. or else no one will buy that car. Would you buy a car that had built in gps as the gimmick but still relied on hand cranked windows? No you would expect it to have powered windows.Legacy of Kain
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LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
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content wise, yeah, sorry, you are delusional if you think ANY game, EVER could ever be created right off the bat with the amount of content WOW has.
call me delusional then. You can't discredit my OP though. Because my OP was not about content. It is about gimmicks, rewards, socialization, and challenges. Throwing content at the player certainly helps by is not the end all be all solution. Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South1 -
qsnoopyjr✭✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »The problem becomes the Developer mentality of if you build it with a gimmick, they will come and stay. No. These games need to be designed and built beyond the idea of let's build a new world with a gimmick and release new content periodically to keep gamers interested. No. These games need to be built around social interactions that go beyond "raids". People want living breathing worlds that evolve based on player interactions. Worlds need to be developed from the start with social tools. Integrate voice chat. Integrate LFG tools that work. Integrate player housing, integrate more dynamic trade systems. Integrate mobile device apps that allow trading in real time and player instant chat tools. Integrate esports and a world wide tournament system. Sponsor events. Advertise tournaments at conventions. Allow for more character customizations. Allow characters to design their own costumes. Allow more combat skill choices options so characters aren't forced to re-roll. Allow for titles that mean something with big rewards. Allow for big rewards. People want challenge! Remember back in the day when someone killed the king in ultimate online! That was a big deal in the gaming industry! Allow for challenges. Allow for consequences both in pve and pvp with bigger rewards. Remember that feeling of accomplishment when beating dosha when game first came out? Now it's watered down. Do something with achievements. Integrate an online achievement system so players can see others achievements. Calculate and advertise player statistics so players can see who is the best in the world at stuff. For example, killing dosha the fastest. Give players records to beat. Add Guild halls where player guilds mean something. Stop segregating factions.why in gods name are companies doing thIs? Integrate people! Not separate worlds and then develop a doofy silver gold quest line after the fact. Look I get it. Stupid that a Jedi would be with a sith. But there's ways to make this work so that players can play with each other. Bring the world to the player don't expect the average player to go off on his own and download vent or mumble and re login to a new IP server every time he wants to group with a random group of people. Don't be lazy and put the social development on the player. Don't wash and dry your hands and say, I did my job, I created a world, now it's up to the player to develop social relationships. No. Hire knowledge managers and statistically aggregate and determine what people want. Developers need to be more interactive with players. Not just question and answer sessions or forum presence. Developers need to challenge players with contests in and out of the game. Let players develop content ideas. Let players develop reviewed contents. More in game random and coordinated events. (Rift was actually good at this). The developer MUST design a world that forces social interaction and makes it easy and convenient to do so. You want this game to be successful? Bring it to the player. Not the other way around. All of these examples need to be implemented when a game is released otherwise it's too late. People have moved on and Lost interest.
If any game is close to next gen, currently its GW2.
First of all, let me inform you of one thing that was wrong about your post, GW2 isn't Free to Play, its Buy to Play, same model ESO went to after a year.
In your message, GW2 is the only game that periodically keeps players interested with a "living story", there has been 2 of them since I played, they were very well done, and lead into the next expansion nicely.
Yes this game and all those other MMO's need to integrate voice chat.. How does EQ have it and GW2 and ESO does not??
GW2 has a LFG system that works, very effective too.
How does GW2 and ESO not have player housing? This is just dumb, reminds me of developers just looking for something to hold back and use to milk our money out of us. Or something for expansion, why does it have to be in an expansion? I know for FACT EQNext is going to do it right because they already have landmark, ALREADY have ways for us to make housing and change the environment itself. EQNext is using successful from Minecraft, highly successful game, ESO and GW2 totally ignored it. ESO even already has ways for us to make housing too with there TES construction set.... YET they hold it back from us.
GW2 tradepost is as dynamic as it gets. I'm not a big fan of this because it pretty much RUINS everything due to EVERYTHING being easily sold and bought. I actually do enjoy the current trade system, although my favorite type of system would be the system EQ had in its early days. All traders in one area, but you have to go up to each trader and see what they have.
GW2 is the only MMO I know of with focus on #esports, they have community tournaments too for good money. It's in better position for esports than ESO due to balance, ESO is very unbalanced someone could have 300 CP another person 0 CP. GW2 everyone is on same playing field.
GW2 advertises at conventions, but guess how many viewers they get?? Twitch, 2-3k on there main Twitch channels, very tiny number. You advertise at convention your only targeting few amount of people compared to ADVERTISING YOUTUBE, which is VASTLY larger amount of people (convention 10k people, YOUTUBE 10M people, see difference???)
More character customization? Kidding me right, this game already more than enough options. Its just people that play META win, and people that don't play META lose. Seriously. This game doesn't advertise the META nearly as much as GW2 does, in GW2 everyone knows the META, this game, more secret, have to actually look at Youtube videos and figure it out.
GW2 allows you to chose what your armor looks like. Far more customizations than this game. The thing about ESO, it strongly discriminates, its not going to give you fun or appealing armor, its STONGLY set in the designs it has and that needs to change. Needs to take a chill pill on discrimination and allow more fun and appealing designs.
Allow more combat choices so people don't have to reroll?
That's where GW2 does it right and others fail. GW2 allows you to easily reset skills, when you PvP your automatically max level and everything unlocked. Its more SKILL based than overpowering your enemy. That's why GW2 is going to last for a long time, you can EASILY get back into that game. ESO, EQ, (not sure about WoW, never played), EQ2, etc. They all have AA (Alternate Abilities), you need certain amount to do stuff. In GW2 you just get to a level, that's it, easily get back into the game, they literally hand you level scrolls and skill point scrolls too, I have 4 stacks of skill point scrolls (1000 free skillpoints) 1 stack of level scrolls (enough to instantly max level 3 NEW toons).
Allow big rewards? Haven't seen that since EQ. GW2 you go fight a mega boss, kill him, get junk. Havent beat ESO, but assume you go fight mega boss, kill him, get something you'd deconstruct/ junk. Actually, in PvP ESO does have it right, Masters gold for top 50. I'd say that's something on the right tracks!
People want Challenge? Haven't seen this since EQ. Game being overwhelming, (mainly because new to the MMO genre and playing dumb) losing all gear when you, challenge of getting it back. I wish this game you died you have to run back and get your corpse for loot. I wish this game was like Runescape, you die OTHER people can loot your stuff. Easily craft the gear back in this game, just like in Runescape easily craft gear back after you died and people looted you. Also, in EQ, back in the days when it was good, when you went into a zone, you literally had to fight your way there and hope other people are there clearing too, and if you wanted to go back, you either trained or cleared the way back. Enemies followed you FOREVER. Some enemies SUMMON you making running away from them even harder and challenging too. EQ is one of those games you don't just breezewalk to the next zone, back in the days invis failed, and often, and when it fails and your in a bad spot, its challenging to figure out how to deal with the enemies you aggro'ed and most times these are guys you cant 1v1 and maybe another mob or two sees you too making it even more stressful.
GW2 has achievement system, you can see who has the most achievements, you can see whose the best pvp'er.
GW2 has spectator system, so you can see peoples builds and how they play. When they do there tournaments the shoutcasters go over the all the competing players gear and such too.
Agree with you about voice comms, very sad how ESO doesn't have it but EQ has it. Also in GW2, a lot of whining is "other team is in vent that's why they won", WELL ADD VOICECHAT so no more excuses. A game such as EQ 10+ years old has it and these new top tier MMO's don't, its just sad, enough said.
Truth be told about social relationships, EQ did it best. You want a buff, temp? kei? damage shield? talk to that cleric, that enchanter, that druid. You had to INTERACT with others to get buffs which help you greatly in the game. Back then with corpse runs, someone helped you get your corpse back, another example of social interaction. When rez ment something, another social interaction. Having to group to get good stuff and easy/good xp another social interaction. EQ pretty much did force social interaction. If you didn't interact with someone and go fight without temp or kei, your at a huge disadvantage compared to others who sought out other players that could give them temp and kei. Some dungeons were too nasty that it was almost impossible to get corpse back too, you had to get a necromancer to summon it or ask someone really strong.
ALSO, EQ in the old days, there were very few STRONG people, due to lack of 96% rez and death making you lose large chunk of xp, deleveling you too. Leveling taking a long time.
Unfortunately EQ has changed now, its a lot easier and less fun like it was. The raiding is what is really keeping it alive, still has the best raids.
GW2 is pretty much as good as it gets to being the next gen.
EQNext is very promising, EQLandmark, basically mindcraft in an MMO. I say, if it goes FULL voice, I doubt it will do good. But if its partially voiced, I can see it doing very well.
Mainly because SWTOR spend HUGE $$ on voice, it went B2P or F2P, it was a bust.
ESO, also spending HUGE $$$ on voice, so many bugs, like francis says "not another game crashing bug.. ####!"
I blame both those games with poorly utilizing there budgets. Seriously 1 year later and STILL ANNOYING, very annoying bugs.
Stupid stuff in ESO too, like having to LOGOUT LOGIN just to get the item you bought from the guild trader. You should be getting that item INSTANTLY when you bought it, not have to wait... never appears until you zone out or logout. Same deal with hirelings LOG OUT LOGIN and they give you the stuff. Don't even get me started on this game and its issues. Francis video is 100% true. ESO needs to look at Francis YouTube video of ESO, and CORRECT, SATISFY the customer. Get rid of those bugs and do what Francis told you is wrong with this game.
Diablo 3 was a bust because trading was too easy, no reason to continuously do same thing when you just bought the best gear in game.
SWTOR was a bust because content wasn't good, spent way too much on voice acting.
EQ dying just due to age
ESO is a bust because mainly due to abundance of bugs and unable to fix them in timely manner (still bugs, GAMEBREAKING bugs a year later), also content is decent, but if it spent less on voice acting and more on the actual game, it would've been a lot better, probably less buggy or no bugs too. Also, this game is anti social, only reason I group is to do a dungeon or pvp. Being in a guild hardly means anything at all, no interaction either.
GW2, I wouldn't say its better than WoW, but to be honest, there is really nothing that really makes it a bust. The only complaint I have about GW2 is there PvP tournament system, 2 team tournies is all they have, hardly competitive at all. The leaderboards is a joke too. Other than that. GW2 guild, actually means something, you do missions with guild and get good gear with guild commodations. Lacks guild leaderboard, but maybe coming in its next expansion. GW2 isn't bad at anything, its just MISSING stuff.
WoW, why is that game so successful? Lemme tell you one thing. You can fly.
Can you fly in SWTOR? (not sure, don't think so, as in fly anywhere, nope)
Can you fly in EQ? Nope, levitate isn't flying, you cant go straight up.
Can you fly in Diablo 3? Nope
Can you fly in GW2? Nope
Can you fly in ESO? Nope
That's just ONE reason why WoW is better and the king of MMO's, no other MMO can match that ONE thing, and it has MORE reasons besides that ONE thing.
Btw, never played WoW, EQ fanboys don't play WoW.
One last thing,
In GW2, a mega boss spawns you have 200 people there fighting it, with like 3 other instances (caps at 200 people) of 200 people fighting them.
In ESO, a mega boss/ boss in the meanest baddest public dungeon. I HIGHLY doubt 200 people are there attacking it. I can see 5 people going at it, maybe 30 tops.
GW2 200 x 3 people fighting mega boss.
ESO 5-30 people fighting mega boss.
You tell me which game is doing better.Edited by qsnoopyjr on May 30, 2015 2:44AM3 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
Not at all.
Let's compare this to a car. Do car companies release cars with the same gadgets from 10, 15, 20 years ago? At some point the de facto standard becomes power windows with more features and not hand cranks with less features. or else no one will buy that car. Would you buy a car that had built in gps as the gimmick but still relied on hand cranked windows? No you would expect it to have powered windows.
So we got guild banks instantly and it took WOW about 7 years to do it
But this is what you replied to:
"People complain because a new MMO that's only a day old doesn't have the same amount of content as wow that's been going for 10 years. They all leave and it bombs. It's happened with every MMO in the last 5 years."
And this si what you said:
"That's no excuse. In today's day and age it's what is expected. If wow set the bar to be that high than upcoming competitive gaming companies need to meet that standard right out of the box on day one."
ESO just like most new MMOs, incorporates a host of features that have become industry standards through the years (and outright rejected some like the AH) that took MMOs from 10-15 years ago years to get around to including in their games.
But you disagreed with what the poster you quoted was saying about CONTENT which is a whole other thing than systems.1 -
Valymer✭✭✭✭✭joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »
Not at all.
Let's compare this to a car. Do car companies release cars with the same gadgets from 10, 15, 20 years ago? At some point the de facto standard becomes power windows with more features and not hand cranks with less features. or else no one will buy that car. Would you buy a car that had built in gps as the gimmick but still relied on hand cranked windows? No you would expect it to have powered windows.
An excellent comparison.
In contrast to most modern MMOs, ESO lacks:- A working LFG tool
- A global auction house
- Dueling
- Small-scale PvP
- Mini-games
- Global chat channels
- Basic UI functionality (mini-map, combat log, etc.)
If anything, ESO is more last-gen than next-gen. How can it hope to compete in today's market with these fundamental shortcomings?3 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So we got guild banks instantly and it took WOW about 7 years to do it
But this is what you replied to:
"People complain because a new MMO that's only a day old doesn't have the same amount of content as wow that's been going for 10 years. They all leave and it bombs. It's happened with every MMO in the last 5 years."
And this si what you said:
"That's no excuse. In today's day and age it's what is expected. If wow set the bar to be that high than upcoming competitive gaming companies need to meet that standard right out of the box on day one."
ESO just like most new MMOs, incorporates a host of features that have become industry standards through the years (and outright rejected some like the AH) that took MMOs from 10-15 years ago years to get around to including in their games.
But you disagreed with what the poster you quoted was saying about CONTENT which is a whole other thing than systems.
Read my dialogue with the other guy.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If any game is close to next gen, currently its GW2.
First of all, let me inform you of one thing that was wrong about your post, GW2 isn't Free to Play, its Buy to Play, same model ESO went to after a year.
In your message, GW2 is the only game that periodically keeps players interested with a "living story", there has been 2 of them since I played, they were very well done, and lead into the next expansion nicely.
Yes this game and all those other MMO's need to integrate voice chat.. How does EQ have it and GW2 and ESO does not??
GW2 has a LFG system that works, very effective too.
How does GW2 and ESO not have player housing? This is just dumb, reminds me of developers just looking for something to hold back and use to milk our money out of us. Or something for expansion, why does it have to be in an expansion? I know for FACT EQNext is going to do it right because they already have landmark, ALREADY have ways for us to make housing and change the environment itself. EQNext is using successful from Minecraft, highly successful game, ESO and GW2 totally ignored it. ESO even already has ways for us to make housing too with there TES construction set.... YET they hold it back from us.
GW2 tradepost is as dynamic as it gets. I'm not a big fan of this because it pretty much RUINS everything due to EVERYTHING being easily sold and bought. I actually do enjoy the current trade system, although my favorite type of system would be the system EQ had in its early days. All traders in one area, but you have to go up to each trader and see what they have.
GW2 is the only MMO I know of with focus on #esports, they have community tournaments too for good money. It's in better position for esports than ESO due to balance, ESO is very unbalanced someone could have 300 CP another person 0 CP. GW2 everyone is on same playing field.
GW2 advertises at conventions, but guess how many viewers they get?? Twitch, 2-3k on there main Twitch channels, very tiny number. You advertise at convention your only targeting few amount of people compared to ADVERTISING YOUTUBE, which is VASTLY larger amount of people (convention 10k people, YOUTUBE 10M people, see difference???)
More character customization? Kidding me right, this game already more than enough options. Its just people that play META win, and people that don't play META lose. Seriously. This game doesn't advertise the META nearly as much as GW2 does, in GW2 everyone knows the META, this game, more secret, have to actually look at Youtube videos and figure it out.
GW2 allows you to chose what your armor looks like. Far more customizations than this game. The thing about ESO, it strongly discriminates, its not going to give you fun or appealing armor, its STONGLY set in the designs it has and that needs to change. Needs to take a chill pill on discrimination and allow more fun and appealing designs.
Allow more combat choices so people don't have to reroll?
That's where GW2 does it right and others fail. GW2 allows you to easily reset skills, when you PvP your automatically max level and everything unlocked. Its more SKILL based than overpowering your enemy. That's why GW2 is going to last for a long time, you can EASILY get back into that game. ESO, EQ, (not sure about WoW, never played), EQ2, etc. They all have AA (Alternate Abilities), you need certain amount to do stuff. In GW2 you just get to a level, that's it, easily get back into the game, they literally hand you level scrolls and skill point scrolls too, I have 4 stacks of skill point scrolls (1000 free skillpoints) 1 stack of level scrolls (enough to instantly max level 3 NEW toons).
Allow big rewards? Haven't seen that since EQ. GW2 you go fight a mega boss, kill him, get junk. Havent beat ESO, but assume you go fight mega boss, kill him, get something you'd deconstruct/ junk. Actually, in PvP ESO does have it right, Masters gold for top 50. I'd say that's something on the right tracks!
People want Challenge? Haven't seen this since EQ. Game being overwhelming, (mainly because new to the MMO genre and playing dumb) losing all gear when you, challenge of getting it back. I wish this game you died you have to run back and get your corpse for loot. I wish this game was like Runescape, you die OTHER people can loot your stuff. Easily craft the gear back in this game, just like in Runescape easily craft gear back after you died and people looted you. Also, in EQ, back in the days when it was good, when you went into a zone, you literally had to fight your way there and hope other people are there clearing too, and if you wanted to go back, you either trained or cleared the way back. Enemies followed you FOREVER. Some enemies SUMMON you making running away from them even harder and challenging too. EQ is one of those games you don't just breezewalk to the next zone, back in the days invis failed, and often, and when it fails and your in a bad spot, its challenging to figure out how to deal with the enemies you aggro'ed and most times these are guys you cant 1v1 and maybe another mob or two sees you too making it even more stressful.
GW2 has achievement system, you can see who has the most achievements, you can see whose the best pvp'er.
GW2 has spectator system, so you can see peoples builds and how they play. When they do there tournaments the shoutcasters go over the all the competing players gear and such too.
Agree with you about voice comms, very sad how ESO doesn't have it but EQ has it. Also in GW2, a lot of whining is "other team is in vent that's why they won", WELL ADD VOICECHAT so no more excuses. A game such as EQ 10+ years old has it and these new top tier MMO's don't, its just sad, enough said.
Truth be told about social relationships, EQ did it best. You want a buff, temp? kei? damage shield? talk to that cleric, that enchanter, that druid. You had to INTERACT with others to get buffs which help you greatly in the game. Back then with corpse runs, someone helped you get your corpse back, another example of social interaction. When rez ment something, another social interaction. Having to group to get good stuff and easy/good xp another social interaction. EQ pretty much did force social interaction. If you didn't interact with someone and go fight without temp or kei, your at a huge disadvantage compared to others who sought out other players that could give them temp and kei. Some dungeons were too nasty that it was almost impossible to get corpse back too, you had to get a necromancer to summon it or ask someone really strong.
ALSO, EQ in the old days, there were very few STRONG people, due to lack of 96% rez and death making you lose large chunk of xp, deleveling you too. Leveling taking a long time.
Unfortunately EQ has changed now, its a lot easier and less fun like it was. The raiding is what is really keeping it alive, still has the best raids.
GW2 is pretty much as good as it gets to being the next gen.
EQNext is very promising, EQLandmark, basically mindcraft in an MMO. I say, if it goes FULL voice, I doubt it will do good. But if its partially voiced, I can see it doing very well.
Mainly because SWTOR spend HUGE $$ on voice, it went B2P or F2P, it was a bust.
ESO, also spending HUGE $$$ on voice, so many bugs, like francis says "not another game crashing bug.. ####!"
I blame both those games with poorly utilizing there budgets. Seriously 1 year later and STILL ANNOYING, very annoying bugs.
Stupid stuff in ESO too, like having to LOGOUT LOGIN just to get the item you bought from the guild trader. You should be getting that item INSTANTLY when you bought it, not have to wait... never appears until you zone out or logout. Same deal with hirelings LOG OUT LOGIN and they give you the stuff. Don't even get me started on this game and its issues. Francis video is 100% true. ESO needs to look at Francis YouTube video of ESO, and CORRECT, SATISFY the customer. Get rid of those bugs and do what Francis told you is wrong with this game.
Diablo 3 was a bust because trading was too easy, no reason to continuously do same thing when you just bought the best gear in game.
SWTOR was a bust because content wasn't good, spent way too much on voice acting.
EQ dying just due to age
ESO is a bust because mainly due to abundance of bugs and unable to fix them in timely manner (still bugs, GAMEBREAKING bugs a year later), also content is decent, but if it spent less on voice acting and more on the actual game, it would've been a lot better, probably less buggy or no bugs too. Also, this game is anti social, only reason I group is to do a dungeon or pvp. Being in a guild hardly means anything at all, no interaction either.
GW2, I wouldn't say its better than WoW, but to be honest, there is really nothing that really makes it a bust. The only complaint I have about GW2 is there PvP tournament system, 2 team tournies is all they have, hardly competitive at all. The leaderboards is a joke too. Other than that. GW2 guild, actually means something, you do missions with guild and get good gear with guild commodations. Lacks guild leaderboard, but maybe coming in its next expansion. GW2 isn't bad at anything, its just MISSING stuff.
WoW, why is that game so successful? Lemme tell you one thing. You can fly.
Can you fly in SWTOR? (not sure, don't think so, as in fly anywhere, nope)
Can you fly in EQ? Nope, levitate isn't flying, you cant go straight up.
Can you fly in Diablo 3? Nope
Can you fly in GW2? Nope
Can you fly in ESO? Nope
That's just ONE reason why WoW is better and the king of MMO's, no other MMO can match that ONE thing, and it has MORE reasons besides that ONE thing.
Btw, never played WoW, EQ fanboys don't play WoW.
Great thought out rebuttal in favor of gw2. You sir have reminded me of the goodness in gw2. Gw2 does have a lot of the features I mention in my OP. I got to lvl 40 in pvp but the pve was boring, grindy as hell, and never grabbed me. I always felt the social and reward aspect was missing like as in EQ. Gw2 may not be failing for a b2p but it certainly could do more. Thanks for writing this.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
BigM✭✭✭✭✭
✭OP deserves a big LOL! Now sir go put what you want in an MMO to kickstarter and lets see you make the game of your dreams oh wait no your fantasy!
Don't get me wrong I agree with some of what you say but going out making it and releasing it and making money off it is a whole other ball game.“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
― Stephen Hawking1 -
Valymer✭✭✭✭✭OP deserves a big LOL! Now sir go put what you want in an MMO to kickstarter and lets see you make the game of your dreams oh wait no your fantasy!
Don't get me wrong I agree with some of what you say but going out making it and releasing it and making money off it is a whole other ball game.
Is that what you do when you inadvertently buy an electronic device with a crappy design? Start a tech company and begin manufacturing them for yourself?
Or do you go buy one with a better design from a competitor?2 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭OP deserves a big LOL! Now sir go put what you want in an MMO to kickstarter and lets see you make the game of your dreams oh wait no your fantasy!
Don't get me wrong I agree with some of what you say but going out making it and releasing it and making money off it is a whole other ball game.
im glad that you interpreted my OP as an opportunity to insult me with the old put your money where your mouth is. My intent, From a player perspective is, to try and provide insight, as a player with 20 years online gaming experience, for zos to understand the failings of 98% of the games released since EQ. I really like eso but they are missing out on some great opportunities that could easily improve the player experience and differentiate themselves without relying on gimmicks. So far they have fallen into many of the same traps as other mmorpgs that are either hanging on a thread or have downsized considerably to a non-existent player base.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
MyNegation✭✭✭dos and don'ts of making a game that will keep the people playing.
megaservers where you will encounter a certain player only once, even if he is in your friend list, where all the faces you see you see only once.--> out
named server with community, when you more or less encounter the same players in leveling, dungeons and PVP and personal and guild reputation matters --> in.
fast travel that reduce the whole world to pin map --> out
caravan/ship/whatever only to zone, or at least only to major hubs in the zone. all travel inside the zone should be made by foot interacting with the environment.--> in
flying mounts/ early available fast mounts that reduce your interaction with the world and easy for you to avoid danger and interaction -->out.
fast mounts as a status symbol only to maxed level chars that finished some long term deed ( pvp rank, PVE raid drop, super crafted mount that require all crafts maxed out etc) -->in
instanced open world where you party side by side with your friend and he vanish in a thin air because he already finished this quest last night. or solo personal story--> out
mixed levels maps where you have high level hubs in a low level map, whether it is a dungeon, entrance to PVP instance, or simply an elite zone in the map that have high level players interest, in order for the lowbies to see high level players and interact with them.--> in
easily soloable leveling and open world where you take out map group bosses barely using a healing potion, and where nobody bothers you with "/w can you help me pls with the camp of doom? " --> out.
challenging leveling and open world which is very possible to solo, but challenging and require you to use resources in order to survive encounter, and have a recuperation down time after the encounter to heal up, where you will want to duo with someone just to make it faster, where you have elite zones with side quests where you need a small group to prevail--> in.
self sufficient classes or roles, that can do everything CC, DPS, and self healing very well. and really don't need nobody else to play with.--> out
interdependent classes or roles where single class/ role either don't have all the tools in their box- or have a real disadvantage at some aspect. where two players will supplement each other and not override each other. where the power of two grouping players is higher than the sum of two players by themselves. --> in
it is sad that todays devs forgot the basics and build their games around cool gimmicks, which are truly cool but they don't last for long... and can't replace the basics.Nine worlds of lore, Such was the world in dark days of yore
Safekeeper of the world then was Thor, Such was what they believed in before
Nine were the worlds of lore3 -
Raash✭✭✭✭I see it in another perspective tho... To me it seems that what is causing games failure or success when launching is down to if the hyped expectations of it is met or not.
Usually game companies present text lists + some screenshot or a short non-telling trailer to present the "features" of the upcoming game and that paints a picture into the potential players minds of what is to come.
Here is an example
- A living breathing world where players actually affect the game world- turns out to be player only phased areas that no one but the player can see and experience - but non other.
So while this isnt exactly wrong in its describing it isnt necessarily what whas pictured by the masses.
Apply this into just about anything and you start seeing what might be the cause of why people get disapointed and leave the games after a few months of the release.
I think games would be better off by actually showing and telling the features as they are and not boosted highlights that leaves alot to player imagination.
Thats what I think.
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