Video: How to play a burst high damage Dragonknight - Rossh vs Mage

themdogesbite

frozywozy wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

scales doesent help when being charged as a stationary object by 4 critcharges

Alright fair enough, but then again streak don't help much either when they are following you with charges. But being able to reflect meteors and ranged projectiles must count for something at least? I always have to eat everything served to me (even with BOL many times it doesn't work at all) and deal with it somehow, they can at least keep scales up decently enough to reflect hard hitting projectiles (including physical ones) and deal with melee people the way that a sorc would, with shields.

Scales are not 100% working as intended right now. Just yesterday, I recorded a lot of clips where projectiles from snipers are going through my wings (not a case of double reflect). Also casting wings 1 sec before a meteor hits you doesn't guarantee that it will get reflected. The skill feels clunky atm, and the animation is slow so it doesn't feel responsive. I would really love to get the old animation back, as well as some proper weapon swapping mechanics, but adding this to the nerf makes the skill unreliable (yet impossible to play without it)

This guy is right. Scales are getting more and more useless everyday. It all started when they changed it so you could only reflect 4 projectiles. It gets less and less responsive everyday. Yesterday for example, I was sieging an inner postern and 2 archers on the wall were spamming venom arrow / focused aim on me. I was using Scales every 2seconds but I still died with a death recap full of projectiles.

@LegendaryMage - I'm pretty sure you could have killed that DK easily just streaking out of melee range and dropping mines everytime. Since he uses resto, he doesn't have a gap close so by the time he reaches to you, your mines are activated. You simply decided to use them only once (near the end of the fight) and I think that was your mistake.

I'm not blaming the DK for not using one hand shield though, healing ward is the only option a magicka DK has to survive against physical damage burst and the more I think about it, the more I feel like I should go destro/resto. Even with 21k physical resistance (buffed with hardened armor), glass cannon stamina builds still wreck me pretty hard. I don't like the fact that both morphs of Obisidian Shield (DK's class shield) are for group play mostly. One morph should be for solo or 1vX and gives alot more damage mitigation. Otherwise, your only option is to put a considerable amount of points in bastion which penalize you a lot (at least 30points) or you give up sword and board (your only gap closer) for a much better shield.

In the end, you have to pick between resisting stamina bursts or magicka bursts. Impossible to aim for the just middle unless once again, if you have 250+ cps and can increase your igneous shield high enough so you don't necessary need healing ward.

Dks just need to make sacrifises that other classes dont have to right now.

LegendaryMage

frozywozy wrote: »

@LegendaryMage - I'm pretty sure you could have killed that DK easily just streaking out of melee range and dropping mines everytime. Since he uses resto, he doesn't have a gap close so by the time he reaches to you, your mines are activated. You simply decided to use them only once (near the end of the fight) and I think that was your mistake.

No, I tried, we had quite a few fights before that and if you want to kill him, you can't kite him and/or overload him, he'll reflect all that back to you, he's got good timing and reflexes, I'm afraid the only way (for me, maybe someone else can do it differently) is to get in there with him and rough him up close like I did.

Legedric

Very impressive, both of you!

I'd like to know more about his setup but then again I won't be good enough to even come near his expertise

Ahaek

Awesome your way-

Oughash

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Have you tried playing your dk without permablocking? You could go destro/reso and only get as much stamina management as you need to always be able to breakfree and maybe use shuffle, no need to go s/b perhaps. Instead of blocking, you go with shields more such as harness/healing and even igneous if it's a bit weaker (boost it up a bit with bastion so it's not total crap).

Four things:
1. Igneous shield scales on HP, not mana like Hardened Ward. Thus an active defense based on shield stacking for DK is always inferior to that of a Sorcerer.
2. DKs get a passive to increase block mitigation.
3. DK attacks are all melee range -- thus it makes less sense to go dual staff. While the penetration of destro significantly increases your damage is also significantly decreases your survivability.
4. Lack of a magicka-based gap closer or escape tool (e.g. Streak) means that a DK never even has to option to kite and reset. Thus it is usually more efficient to stand and tank damage.

Mumyo

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I will ask Rossh to record some clips later when I'm on. Or captain capslock. I don't see a reason why they can't do 1vX but they can go 10+ minutes with me in a duel. If I can do 1vX, they can too.

its the lack of mobility - dont use streak in a 1vsX and you will get your butt handed back to you, sure they can make a magica DK build work well in 1vsX but that loses its burst entirly. that build simply doesent work against multiple attackers if they are not complete clay pigeons

Yes, that's the only thing I'm sure they're missing to be the perfect 1vX machines. An escape. They could use mistform when things get ugly maybe, but it's still not ideal. Don't you think scales help them even in its nerfed form? Battleroar, scales etc. it all seems so perfect for 1vX. They can certainly have decent shields like sorcs do too, put points into bastion, use igneous + harness + healing ward and so on.

U start getting naive buddy.

LegendaryMage

Mumyo wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I will ask Rossh to record some clips later when I'm on. Or captain capslock. I don't see a reason why they can't do 1vX but they can go 10+ minutes with me in a duel. If I can do 1vX, they can too.

its the lack of mobility - dont use streak in a 1vsX and you will get your butt handed back to you, sure they can make a magica DK build work well in 1vsX but that loses its burst entirly. that build simply doesent work against multiple attackers if they are not complete clay pigeons

Yes, that's the only thing I'm sure they're missing to be the perfect 1vX machines. An escape. They could use mistform when things get ugly maybe, but it's still not ideal. Don't you think scales help them even in its nerfed form? Battleroar, scales etc. it all seems so perfect for 1vX. They can certainly have decent shields like sorcs do too, put points into bastion, use igneous + harness + healing ward and so on.

U start getting naive buddy.

Why, Lorion seems to be doing fine as a destro/resto dk?

LegendaryMage

Ishammael wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Have you tried playing your dk without permablocking? You could go destro/reso and only get as much stamina management as you need to always be able to breakfree and maybe use shuffle, no need to go s/b perhaps. Instead of blocking, you go with shields more such as harness/healing and even igneous if it's a bit weaker (boost it up a bit with bastion so it's not total crap).

Four things:
1. Igneous shield scales on HP, not mana like Hardened Ward. Thus an active defense based on shield stacking for DK is always inferior to that of a Sorcerer.
2. DKs get a passive to increase block mitigation.
3. DK attacks are all melee range -- thus it makes less sense to go dual staff. While the penetration of destro significantly increases your damage is also significantly decreases your survivability.
4. Lack of a magicka-based gap closer or escape tool (e.g. Streak) means that a DK never even has to option to kite and reset. Thus it is usually more efficient to stand and tank damage.

Yes, you are totally right. However, in 1.5 (just giving an example, not saying it's necessarily like that now) sorcs who totally weren't built for s/b were the best kind of sorcs (until I made a very specific build and countered them as well).

Etaniel

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I will ask Rossh to record some clips later when I'm on. Or captain capslock. I don't see a reason why they can't do 1vX but they can go 10+ minutes with me in a duel. If I can do 1vX, they can too.

its the lack of mobility - dont use streak in a 1vsX and you will get your butt handed back to you, sure they can make a magica DK build work well in 1vsX but that loses its burst entirly. that build simply doesent work against multiple attackers if they are not complete clay pigeons

Yes, that's the only thing I'm sure they're missing to be the perfect 1vX machines. An escape. They could use mistform when things get ugly maybe, but it's still not ideal. Don't you think scales help them even in its nerfed form? Battleroar, scales etc. it all seems so perfect for 1vX. They can certainly have decent shields like sorcs do too, put points into bastion, use igneous + harness + healing ward and so on.

U start getting naive buddy.

Why, Lorion seems to be doing fine as a destro/resto dk?

Lorion seems to be doing fine yes. Against Big Boss and his likes. Hardly proof

LegendaryMage

Etaniel wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I will ask Rossh to record some clips later when I'm on. Or captain capslock. I don't see a reason why they can't do 1vX but they can go 10+ minutes with me in a duel. If I can do 1vX, they can too.

its the lack of mobility - dont use streak in a 1vsX and you will get your butt handed back to you, sure they can make a magica DK build work well in 1vsX but that loses its burst entirly. that build simply doesent work against multiple attackers if they are not complete clay pigeons

Yes, that's the only thing I'm sure they're missing to be the perfect 1vX machines. An escape. They could use mistform when things get ugly maybe, but it's still not ideal. Don't you think scales help them even in its nerfed form? Battleroar, scales etc. it all seems so perfect for 1vX. They can certainly have decent shields like sorcs do too, put points into bastion, use igneous + harness + healing ward and so on.

U start getting naive buddy.

Why, Lorion seems to be doing fine as a destro/resto dk?

Lorion seems to be doing fine yes. Against Big Boss and his likes. Hardly proof

Wtb duel between you and Lorion.

LegendaryMage

Legedric wrote: »

Very impressive, both of you!

I'd like to know more about his setup but then again I won't be good enough to even come near his expertise

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

Ahaek wrote: »

Awesome your way-

Thank you, glad you enjoyed it as well!

Etaniel

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I will ask Rossh to record some clips later when I'm on. Or captain capslock. I don't see a reason why they can't do 1vX but they can go 10+ minutes with me in a duel. If I can do 1vX, they can too.

its the lack of mobility - dont use streak in a 1vsX and you will get your butt handed back to you, sure they can make a magica DK build work well in 1vsX but that loses its burst entirly. that build simply doesent work against multiple attackers if they are not complete clay pigeons

Yes, that's the only thing I'm sure they're missing to be the perfect 1vX machines. An escape. They could use mistform when things get ugly maybe, but it's still not ideal. Don't you think scales help them even in its nerfed form? Battleroar, scales etc. it all seems so perfect for 1vX. They can certainly have decent shields like sorcs do too, put points into bastion, use igneous + harness + healing ward and so on.

U start getting naive buddy.

Why, Lorion seems to be doing fine as a destro/resto dk?

Lorion seems to be doing fine yes. Against Big Boss and his likes. Hardly proof

Wtb duel between you and Lorion.

I am not saying anything about his duelling capabilities using this build !
What I'm saying is that I didn't see in his video any stamblade spamming fear/wrecking blow on him, which is precisely the weakness or light armor dk in open world.

But I'd be up for a duel yes! And vs you as well mage

LegendaryMage

I will duel you on EU soon, too bad Jura quit, get prosski at least. On pts now with 200 cps and trial gear, come.

Etaniel

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I will duel you on EU soon, too bad Jura quit, get prosski at least. On pts now with 200 cps and trial gear, come.

Prosski is a stamina traitor though !

LegendaryMage

I will be on the pts for another 2 hours maybe, or less. If you can come by then, cool, if not, then later this evening if I'm back home quick. Caster dk vs your standard dk, I never dueled as a dk before, should be fun.

frozywozy

LegendaryMage wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

@LegendaryMage - I'm pretty sure you could have killed that DK easily just streaking out of melee range and dropping mines everytime. Since he uses resto, he doesn't have a gap close so by the time he reaches to you, your mines are activated. You simply decided to use them only once (near the end of the fight) and I think that was your mistake.

No, I tried, we had quite a few fights before that and if you want to kill him, you can't kite him and/or overload him, he'll reflect all that back to you, he's got good timing and reflexes, I'm afraid the only way (for me, maybe someone else can do it differently) is to get in there with him and rough him up close like I did.

Did you try the unstable detonation + velocious curse + streak + crystal frag + endless fury combo?

Most DKs (as far as I know) don't have points in hardy which make it easier for sorcs to burst other classes since most of their abilities are pure magic damage.

LegendaryMage

frozywozy wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

@LegendaryMage - I'm pretty sure you could have killed that DK easily just streaking out of melee range and dropping mines everytime. Since he uses resto, he doesn't have a gap close so by the time he reaches to you, your mines are activated. You simply decided to use them only once (near the end of the fight) and I think that was your mistake.

No, I tried, we had quite a few fights before that and if you want to kill him, you can't kite him and/or overload him, he'll reflect all that back to you, he's got good timing and reflexes, I'm afraid the only way (for me, maybe someone else can do it differently) is to get in there with him and rough him up close like I did.

Did you try the unstable detonation + velocious curse + streak + crystal frag + endless fury combo?

Most DKs (as far as I know) don't have points in hardy which make it easier for sorcs to burst other classes since most of their abilities are pure magic damage.

I don't run unstable detonation as it kills you in duels with good players, a top player will bash it 90% of the time from my experience, same goes with me dueling anyone who's trying to use it. Maybe not 100% of the time, but very often and more than not it will kill you in a duel with a top player. Endless fury is something I'm always thinking about and trying to incorporate into my build, I just can't get rid of boundless storm which provides nice utility, cloaking as well as (somewhat) of a mitigation bonus (usually only alright with people who are not pushing penetration).

Why did you mention endless, now I'm trying to squeeze it in my build again somehow...

Sublime

Nice fight, I've got one question though, why don't you replace CS with Wrath? It seems to me that you can't really spam CS and he's quite often at low health (don't know if below 20% though).

Derra

LegendaryMage wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

@LegendaryMage - I'm pretty sure you could have killed that DK easily just streaking out of melee range and dropping mines everytime. Since he uses resto, he doesn't have a gap close so by the time he reaches to you, your mines are activated. You simply decided to use them only once (near the end of the fight) and I think that was your mistake.

No, I tried, we had quite a few fights before that and if you want to kill him, you can't kite him and/or overload him, he'll reflect all that back to you, he's got good timing and reflexes, I'm afraid the only way (for me, maybe someone else can do it differently) is to get in there with him and rough him up close like I did.

We´ve had a few fights of which i got wrecked the first one (meteor + petrify on me not used to playing vampire - ouch). After that i started using teleport to kite him (used to stand in melee and tank dk dmg like you - it´s not possible as vamp i had to adapt a little). I felt fine just nuking from range. All i needed was 1 missed reflect for shock + soulstrike follow up.

Biggest weakness is definetly no gapcloser in his build but than again - with sword and shield he would not be as dangerous in melee in the first place...

LegendaryMage

Sublime wrote: »

Nice fight, I've got one question though, why don't you replace CS with Wrath? It seems to me that you can't really spam CS and he's quite often at low health (don't know if below 20% though).

I am theorycrafting a completely new s/b build at the moment, I want to change things a bit so I'll be hitting them with shards all the time pretty soon.

Derra wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

@LegendaryMage - I'm pretty sure you could have killed that DK easily just streaking out of melee range and dropping mines everytime. Since he uses resto, he doesn't have a gap close so by the time he reaches to you, your mines are activated. You simply decided to use them only once (near the end of the fight) and I think that was your mistake.

No, I tried, we had quite a few fights before that and if you want to kill him, you can't kite him and/or overload him, he'll reflect all that back to you, he's got good timing and reflexes, I'm afraid the only way (for me, maybe someone else can do it differently) is to get in there with him and rough him up close like I did.

We´ve had a few fights of which i got wrecked the first one (meteor + petrify on me not used to playing vampire - ouch). After that i started using teleport to kite him (used to stand in melee and tank dk dmg like you - it´s not possible as vamp i had to adapt a little). I felt fine just nuking from range. All i needed was 1 missed reflect for shock + soulstrike follow up.

Biggest weakness is definetly no gapcloser in his build but than again - with sword and shield he would not be as dangerous in melee in the first place...

Yeah, he hits very hard and can totally burst you in a second if you're not careful. If you're a vamp, then more power to him. I will kite more often with s/b but I'll need some time to gear up properly. I feel like CPs is starting to make a difference, I notice people who I wouldn't have a problem killing some months ago being almost unkillable, so I'm going to make myself unkillable as well (endless kiting resources and better open pvp mobility as well). This is only possible on s/b though.

Erondil

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I will ask Rossh to record some clips later when I'm on. Or captain capslock. I don't see a reason why they can't do 1vX but they can go 10+ minutes with me in a duel. If I can do 1vX, they can too.

its the lack of mobility - dont use streak in a 1vsX and you will get your butt handed back to you, sure they can make a magica DK build work well in 1vsX but that loses its burst entirly. that build simply doesent work against multiple attackers if they are not complete clay pigeons

Yes, that's the only thing I'm sure they're missing to be the perfect 1vX machines. An escape. They could use mistform when things get ugly maybe, but it's still not ideal. Don't you think scales help them even in its nerfed form? Battleroar, scales etc. it all seems so perfect for 1vX. They can certainly have decent shields like sorcs do too, put points into bastion, use igneous + harness + healing ward and so on.

U start getting naive buddy.

Why, Lorion seems to be doing fine as a destro/resto dk?

There is a reason Lorion doesn't use whip (while you basically wanted to show that whip is insanely good).

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I will ask Rossh to record some clips later when I'm on. Or captain capslock. I don't see a reason why they can't do 1vX but they can go 10+ minutes with me in a duel. If I can do 1vX, they can too.

its the lack of mobility - dont use streak in a 1vsX and you will get your butt handed back to you, sure they can make a magica DK build work well in 1vsX but that loses its burst entirly. that build simply doesent work against multiple attackers if they are not complete clay pigeons

Yes, that's the only thing I'm sure they're missing to be the perfect 1vX machines. An escape. They could use mistform when things get ugly maybe, but it's still not ideal. Don't you think scales help them even in its nerfed form? Battleroar, scales etc. it all seems so perfect for 1vX. They can certainly have decent shields like sorcs do too, put points into bastion, use igneous + harness + healing ward and so on.

U start getting naive buddy.

Why, Lorion seems to be doing fine as a destro/resto dk?

Lorion seems to be doing fine yes. Against Big Boss and his likes. Hardly proof

Wtb duel between you and Lorion.

Yet you compare duels and open PvP again...

LegendaryMage

Erondil wrote: »

Yet you compare duels and open PvP again...

If you are not good in duels, you will not be able to take care of yourself in 1v1 and 1vX. Dueling is a part of this game, it is not a completely distinct mini-game where all of a sudden all rules change and nothing is the same. There are people who are 'dueling' with specific builds and changing things just to win 1v1 fights, in my opinion this is not a good representative primer of true dueling.

Erondil

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Yet you compare duels and open PvP again...

If you are not good in duels, you will not be able to take care of yourself in 1v1 and 1vX. Dueling is a part of this game, it is not a completely distinct mini-game where all of a sudden all rules change and nothing is the same. There are people who are 'dueling' with specific builds and changing things just to win 1v1 fights, in my opinion this is not a good representative primer of true dueling.

Its not what I meant. A good 1vXer is, sure, a good dueler. But open PvP is different from duels by many points. This build for example, rely on shields as main defence tool. You can, in 1v1, survive a burst phase only by stacking shields. Agaisnt multiple ennmies, shields will drop faster then you can recast, its mathematic, so you need to use other things such as los, streak, cloak... if you dont have access to those skills, then you need to use blockcasting, or armor mitigation etc... especially if yours attacks are melee.
Also, In duel, the ennemy wont run away if he is in danger, in open PvP, people try to streak away/cloak away/dodge away/run away if they are low health... good luck to get kill with only melee attack and no gapcloser then...

What I want to say here, is that the build showed in the video is a duel build, very strong for it but weak for 1vX. This build is one of those specific build with changed things for 1v1, the kind of build you seem to dislike.
Duels is for sure a part of PvP, but accept it or not, the balance is made around openfield, and so you cant claim that one build is very strong/op when its, in fact, very strong for duels and weak in openfield.

Ryuho

Erondil wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Yet you compare duels and open PvP again...

If you are not good in duels, you will not be able to take care of yourself in 1v1 and 1vX. Dueling is a part of this game, it is not a completely distinct mini-game where all of a sudden all rules change and nothing is the same. There are people who are 'dueling' with specific builds and changing things just to win 1v1 fights, in my opinion this is not a good representative primer of true dueling.

Its not what I meant. A good 1vXer is, sure, a good dueler. But open PvP is different from duels by many points. This build for example, rely on shields as main defence tool. You can, in 1v1, survive a burst phase only by stacking shields. Agaisnt multiple ennmies, shields will drop faster then you can recast, its mathematic, so you need to use other things such as los, streak, cloak... if you dont have access to those skills, then you need to use blockcasting, or armor mitigation etc... especially if yours attacks are melee.
Also, In duel, the ennemy wont run away if he is in danger, in open PvP, people try to streak away/cloak away/dodge away/run away if they are low health... good luck to get kill with only melee attack and no gapcloser then...

What I want to say here, is that the build showed in the video is a duel build, very strong for it but weak for 1vX. This build is one of those specific build with changed things for 1v1, the kind of build you seem to dislike.
Duels is for sure a part of PvP, but accept it or not, the balance is made around openfield, and so you cant claim that one build is very strong/op when its, in fact, very strong for duels and weak in openfield.

Yes exatly what Denne wrote, his build is only good for 1 vs 1, 1 vs x he will jus die to esy.. Hidden NB is able to nuke him down with one wrecklin + supprise or so.. Imo they should make DK shield to do something like blazing, so sacrifice done to mana would be worth to use DK shield.. But whatever ZOS dont care..

Kloud

I feel like I have a hard time with magika dks kodi has a very strong magika dk build similar to this I have a hard time beating him on my stam dk I wish I could duel with you guys on eu

blabafat

LegendaryMage wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

boring

Not as much as your comment is.

LOL