Spell Dmg vs Weapon Dmg Imbalances -- *Updated for Patch 2.1*

frozywozy

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

Alcast wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.

Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.

In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.

DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.

Leandor wrote: »

@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.

Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.

That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)

Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.

With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.

In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.

Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?

These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).

A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.

You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.

You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.

People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.

Your explanation makes no sense at all.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.

Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.

For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.

Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime

L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.

Jules

Leandor wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I presume you mean whip and surprise attack and not CF and WB.
And I will work on getting data concerning this.

Edit: but if you think spell and weapon damage have "no direct impact on gameplay" then I don't even think I know what to tell you.

Why deliberately misunderstand me? You know exactly what I mean. Having 6k weapon damage on the char screen does not equate to dealing 6000 damage with a weapon attack. It is hidden in a formula, that has several variables and different scaling factors for different abilities. The damage difference between a surprise attack at 4000 weapon damage stat and a surprise attack with 6000 weapon damage stat, while having everything else constant, is not 2000, but some other number.

The weapon damage stat (or spell damage stat) on the character screen is several layers removed from the damage an ability using it to scale off, is effecting. I am very sure you are intelligent enough to understand that this is what I meant with "no direct impact on gameplay".

EDIT: Oh, and while we're at it: compare surprise attack and concealed weapon.

I doubt I have the means to compare SA & CW.
My nb is currently specced stam and I know very few magicka NB's. But I'll try.


But I think the easiest way to actually measure this would be to

1. Drop damage increasing mundus
2. Read tool tip, go and find X target with constant spell/armor resist and find the average base damage and average crit damage.
3. Then pick the damage mundus back up, do the same, and compare how much % actual damage increased, divide by the number of spell/weapon damage you received from mundus
4. Voila. You have a % actual damage increase per weapon damage.

Then do the same for spell damage to solve this constant "they scale differently" argument.

If you see a flaw in this method let me know.

Takllin

frozywozy wrote: »

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

Alcast wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.

Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.

In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.

DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.

Leandor wrote: »

@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.

Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.

That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)

Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.

With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.

In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.

Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?

These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).

A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.

You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.

You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.

People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.

Your explanation makes no sense at all.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.

Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.

For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.

Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime

L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build

Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.

Lava_Croft

Jules wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I presume you mean whip and surprise attack and not CF and WB.
And I will work on getting data concerning this.

Edit: but if you think spell and weapon damage have "no direct impact on gameplay" then I don't even think I know what to tell you.

Why deliberately misunderstand me? You know exactly what I mean. Having 6k weapon damage on the char screen does not equate to dealing 6000 damage with a weapon attack. It is hidden in a formula, that has several variables and different scaling factors for different abilities. The damage difference between a surprise attack at 4000 weapon damage stat and a surprise attack with 6000 weapon damage stat, while having everything else constant, is not 2000, but some other number.

The weapon damage stat (or spell damage stat) on the character screen is several layers removed from the damage an ability using it to scale off, is effecting. I am very sure you are intelligent enough to understand that this is what I meant with "no direct impact on gameplay".

EDIT: Oh, and while we're at it: compare surprise attack and concealed weapon.

I doubt I have the means to compare SA & CW.
My nb is currently specced stam and I know very few magicka NB's. But I'll try.


But I think the easiest way to actually measure this would be to

1. Drop damage increasing mundus
2. Read tool tip, go and find X target with constant spell/armor resist and find the average base damage and average crit damage.
3. Then pick the damage mundus back up, do the same, and compare how much % actual damage increased, divide by the number of spell/weapon damage you received from mundus
4. Voila. You have a % actual damage increase per weapon damage.

Then do the same for spell damage to solve this constant "they scale differently" argument.

If you see a flaw in this method let me know.

My experience with Surprise Attack is that it does the same damage to me as my Concealed Weapon reads on the tool tip.

frozywozy

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.

That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)

Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.

With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.

In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.

Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?

These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).

A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.

You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.

You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.

People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.

Your explanation makes no sense at all.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.

Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.

For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.

Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

Alcast wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.

Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.

In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.

DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.

Leandor wrote: »

@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.

Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.

That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)

Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.

With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.

In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.

Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?

These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).

A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.

You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.

You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.

People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.

Your explanation makes no sense at all.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.

Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.

For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.

Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime

L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build

Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.

I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.

Dyride

olsborg wrote: »

Just gonna leave this here again.

From champion points you can decrease the damage you take from magic damage and fire,shock and cold damage, but you cannot decrease the dmg you take from physical damage.

Yes you can, both by reduced critical damage and also from increased armor. Stamina builds rely a lot more on critical hits for burst.

Jules wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Good info Jules, I knew stamina users had more benefits then magicka users, but not that much more lol. It's ridiculous.

It truly is. Compound this with the fact that the two advantages Magicka users had over stam were shields and healing and both were nerfed in 2.1, and basically GG. Reroll.

Because Stam builds don't need to be able to self-heal?

Blocking now completely stops my resource return, and good luck rolling away.

My Rally heals for 9k after I have let it sit for 14 secs. 14 Secs to wait to heal 2-3 attacks?

Jules

Dyride wrote: »

Yes you can, both by reduced critical damage and also from increased armor. Stamina builds rely a lot more on critical hits for burst.

You're splitting hairs when you try to pretend that reducing crit damage is the same thing as reducing physical damage. It's really a weak argument. As far as increased armor, there's also an increased spell resist.

The point is that reducing CRIT damage and INCREASING armor is similar, but not the same as reducing physical damage.
You can fight until you're blue in the face and it still won't make it true.

Dyride wrote: »

Because Stam builds don't need to be able to self-heal?

Blocking now completely stops my resource return, and good luck rolling away.

My Rally heals for 9k after I have let it sit for 14 secs. 14 Secs to wait to heal 2-3 attacks?

No one ever said they shouldn't be able to use self heals. This is just a ridiculous twisting of my words.

Dyride

@Jules

I think @Alcast just won. I would take a Sorc running 43k Max magicka + 5600 spell damage over 6k weapon damage 27k max stam and 2.4k regen any day.

Antimatter is relying on Ravager which is no where near as useful as before.

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

Jules

Dyride wrote: »

@Jules

I think @Alcast just won. I would take a Sorc running 43k Max magicka + 5600 spell damage over 5900 weapon damage 27k max stam and 2k regen any day.

Antimatter is relying on Ravager which is no where near as useful as before.

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

Please stop making assumptions about his build as you know nothing about it.
Also nice sneaky way of leaving out Alcast's 916 magicka recovery from that recap and including only his stronger stats.

Lulz. Just go away.

Takllin

frozywozy wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.

That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)

Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.

With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.

In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.

Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?

These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).

A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.

You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.

You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.

People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.

Your explanation makes no sense at all.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.

Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.

For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.

Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

Alcast wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Mages almost reache the same amount of spelldamage these days, AND they have more magicka than Stamina classes stamina. Why still bother with this? >.>

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I have no idea how you achieved those numbers.

Well, let me think. I guess maybe one way would be to use a procced Molag kena 2 piece and perhaps a procced Scathing mage 5 piece as well; provided they proc simultaneously. Those numbers distinctly make me think this is a PVE build moreso than PVP, but I'm still impressed. It is unfortunate that it relies on the dual proc of those two sets whereas the weapon dmg build is static except 1 proc. Regardless, you have more spell damage than I have ever seen on a magicka build on NA.

In the end i still think that Magicka classes are superior in PvP atm. The nerf to rolldodge and the 0StamrecBlock killed quite a lot of builds for me for all classes in PvP.

DK I have to go full nuke and rely on Potion,Ulti and Helping Hands Passive.
NB is the least affected because you could rolldoge>cloak>rolldodge...
Stam Sorc got quite some fancy passives+Dark Deal
Stam Templar got RIPed in this patch.

Leandor wrote: »

@frozywozy I don't understand why you included my post in your rant, since you are talking about something completely different. My post is part of an ongoing discussion with @Jules about the relevance of the raw character sheet weapon/spell damage stat comparisons over its actual tangible effect on damage done. It has nothing at all to do with class imbalances. But just for the record, I am of the opinion that DKs did get the shortest stick in the current game state, when compared on solo viability.

Sorry, wrong quote. My mistake.

Takllin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

There is no imbalance between spell damage and weapon damage. Weapon damage is higher, but in return magicka builds get far superior utility and survivability. If spell damage were as high, it would be completely overpowered.

That's also why CPs can be used to mitigate magical damage easier than physical. All stamina skills can do is damage and some CC, while spells get a wide range of powerful utility (Dragon Fire Scales, Hardened Ward, Illustrous Healing, Mutagen, Healing Ward, Dark Cloak, Breath of Life, Limunous Shards, Repentance, Bolt Escape, etc etc)

Magicka builds are simply far more versatile, they have spells that are tactical game changers, while stamina skills just do damage, which spells can do as well and often even better. Spells are just superior in every way to stamina skills, so there has to be some kind of trade off or no one would ever play a stamina build.

With the changes coming with IC, stamina builds already took a gigantic hit, most players ditching their build to go magicka, make this even worse by raising spell damage or lowering weapon damage, and there'll be a total absence of stamina builds.

In the future stamina builds will have to receive some kind of significant upgrade to offset the huge nerfs.

Did you actually read the post edited by Jules?

These could be some of the reasons as to why weapon damage is able to stack to 3 - 4k, 5-6k where as spell damage is gimpy at approximately 1.7-2.1k 2.4-3.4k (generously).

A stamina class can use all the magicka utility abilities anyway. Of course they cannot spam it but who need to spam Igneous shield or Dragon Fire Scale or Volatile Armor? You usually use it once per fight and when it's time to refresh, your magicka pool is already back up. Drinks are so OP at the moment, it is easy to manage your magicka pool as a stamina user with a few tweaks.

You are also saying that stamina users have no utility abilities when Vigor and Rally are probably the best heals in the game at the moment after Breath of Life.

You are saying that magicka classes have more survivability. You are definitely reffering to Templars because of Breath of Life, or Nightblades because of cloak spam or Sorcerers because of Bolt Escape/Streak and Hardened Ward but what about DKs? Magicka DKs have to spec hybrid to stand any chance into a fight and their damage is significantly reduced at the same time. A magicka DK has no survivability other than mist form + dodge rolling and with the amount of snares in the game atm, he must also run efficient purge otherwise mist form is totally useless.

People are NOT rerolling magicka since IC came out, people are rerolling stamina, which I did yesterday spending around 500-600k gold to switch over.

Your explanation makes no sense at all.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

If you didn't realize it yet, IC is all about burst so it doesn't matter if your flat damage is not high enough, it's all about burst right now and magicka DKs can only relay on DoTs and low damage because they need more stamina to block/dodge roll/ccbreak.

Quady wrote: »

No imbalance between spell and weapon dmg at all.
And things that increase dmg only for few seconds aren't that good, because till u get them up, your dmg is smaller than with normal bonus.

Leandor wrote: »

And I repeat my core point, which has been ignored in your reply:

How much damage does your CF crit hit a target with 15k spell resist.
How much damage does his WB crit hit a target with 15k physical resist.

That difference is what you need to base your comparison on. Not a number that has no direct impact on gameplay.

But consider that you have only looked at one part of the equation. After that comparison, do the much more difficult comparison of defensive abilities he has with his build and you have with yours. After that, do it for sustainability. Aggregate all results.

Make a qualitative comparison, since you are now far away from tangible numbers and finally somewhere that could be called a non biased comparison between stamina and magicka. I wish you all the best in trying, I have long since given up since my own mental capacities aren't sufficient to pull it off without bias.

I run with 32k spell resistances and 24k physical resistance on magicka DK and I can barely manage to survive in 1v1 fights and obviously I don't have enough damage output when stam sorcs can run with 10-13k phys/spell resistances and do miracles because STREAK.

Sounds like a L2P/DK issue, not a complete game balance one.

For everyone else, how's the DPS metrics working out this patch for magicka vs stamina builds? I saw early numbers which still put stamina builds behind magicka, by a further amount than the previous update. Like Yonkit said, the new gear sets are really nice for magicka, while the stamina ones, or rather just the one is kinda meh. This also need to be taken into account, you can't balance the game around just PvP or just PvE. Push something too far for one side and it has adverse affects in other aspects of the game.

Ps Jules I think you owe someone some Taco Bell and singing their praises for a lifetime

L2P issue? say that to SypherPk or any great 1vX magicka DK player who struggle to find a proper build since 1.6 came out. Templars and nightblades have the same issue damage wise, they can just survive longer because BoT and because Cloak. But this thread is about damage output of magicka classes which is lacking for all classes compared to stamina builds, not survivability.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219457/endgame-viable-magicka-dragonknight-pvp-build

Magicka Templar and Nightblade don't have the same issue with damage as a DK does.

I think you need to read the OP again. There are several reasons that make OVERALL magical damage lower than physical damage as mentioned in the OP. For example, the fact that magicka classes have to split their points between elemental expert and thaumaturgy unlike stamina classes who just put their points in mighty. I suggest that you go read again.

Dude...I'm going all white girl right now to say I can't even with you sometimes...You talk about Templar/Nightblade Magicka but when I respond to that, I'm the one that needs to go read the OP again?? That's rich. Magicka damage abilities are hitting less than stamina, but that doesn't address the DPS metrics for PvE. Magicka has always had the highest DPS for PvE, and all of the numbers that I've seen from this update and 1.6 still prove that to be true.

You're also wrong about Stamina builds, DK and Nightblade need to put points into more than just Mighty. Sorc is arguably the only stamina build that needs to put points only into Mighty, because Burning Light Proc is Magic damage so Templars with their Biting Jabs spam could make good use of Thaumaturge as well, especially if they have bow as their offhand DPS.

@Dyride Sorry but Jules is right here. It's completely backwards that we can reduce every kind of damage except Physical. Stamina builds don't rely on crits for their damage in PvP either, the base damage on abilities alone is higher than that of Magicka builds. On my Stamplar which is not fully geared with BiS, I can get upwards of 13k tooltip on my WB. Just for a comparison on Biting Jab/Puncturing Sweeps. I can hit 1450 per jab on the tooltip with my Stamplar. Blabafat I think is just about 900 now with an almost full spell damage build with crafted sets. I'm also using all crafted sets except Molag Kena shoulders which both builds have.

There isn't a single magicka ability in the game like that where you can get the same kind of damage. Except that setup which @Alcast posted a picture of, but that's extremely hard to obtain. Stamina builds only rely on critical hits if they want to one-two shot other players. Something that isn't available to Magicka builds.

xaraan

It is much easier to get high weapon damage, weapon crit, stam regen numbers while also having higher spell resist than it is to get high spell damage, spell crit, magicka regen numbers and don't even get started on physical resistance. Personally, I think removing the weapon damage 5pc bonus from medium armor would go a long way toward balancing it (you don't need to buff spell damage as much as nerf weapon damage IMO). There are other imbalances too, like having a skill like wrecking blow offer a self buff and knock down and not be interruptible (you can't dodge roll or block it as much as it's cast anymore with the nerfs) in addition to doing great damage. I've seriously been considering swapping to stam build on my main NB as well as I'm enjoying my stam sorc much more in pvp (and I have way more experience playing the NB over the sorc).

Dyride

Jules wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

Because Stam builds don't need to be able to self-heal?

Blocking now completely stops my resource return, and good luck rolling away.

My Rally heals for 9k after I have let it sit for 14 secs. 14 Secs to wait to heal 2-3 attacks?

No one ever said they shouldn't be able to use self heals. This is just a ridiculous twisting of my words.

Jules wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Good info Jules, I knew stamina users had more benefits then magicka users, but not that much more lol. It's ridiculous.

It truly is. Compound this with the fact that the two advantages Magicka users had over stam were shields and healing and both were nerfed in 2.1, and basically GG. Reroll.

Stamina heals are less reliable and nerfed just as hard so how can you argue this isn't still a benefit to Magicka?

Sub 1k Regen is hardly a weakness when he has over 16.7k (+60%) more magicka than Antimatter's Stamina. Only the most taxing fight should ever cause him to be close to running out of magicka.

nordickittyhawk

Edit. no idea if this topic is pvp or pve related

nordickittyhawk

Never mind "edit... pvp related... im out " xD

Mumyo

i cant believe people are being serious here.... this is a joke right?

FriedEggSandwich

Dyride wrote: »

@Jules

I think @Alcast just won. I would take a Sorc running 43k Max magicka + 5600 spell damage over 6k weapon damage 27k max stam and 2.4k regen any day.

Antimatter is relying on Ravager which is no where near as useful as before.

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I agree with points from both sides of this argument and I'm not sure where I stand; I think any imbalance there is is less of an issue than some people want to make out. I agree with the commenter who suggested we should be comparing frags to wb from maxed-out builds.

However, that sorc stats sheet is from a pve build but with battle-spirit stat buffs. 10k stamina + 534 stam regen + 916 magicka regen will make you very easy to kill in pvp, regardless how big your hardened ward is. The meta for stam builds seems to be regen drinks which is why they only have 27k stam. And if you can hit 13k suprise attacks why would you need any more stamina? I always thought the disparity was due to stamina being a more in-your-face playstyle and therefore more risky, but I don't feel like that argument is very strong.

Edit: also sorcs can buff their spell damage by upto 12% by filling their bar with sorc skills thanks to Expert Mage passive. Other magicka builds can't do this afaik.

Firerock2

I wish I could achieve 5.6k spell damage on my magicka Templar...

Hektik_V

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Dyride wrote: »

@Jules

I think @Alcast just won. I would take a Sorc running 43k Max magicka + 5600 spell damage over 6k weapon damage 27k max stam and 2.4k regen any day.

Antimatter is relying on Ravager which is no where near as useful as before.

Alcast wrote: »

In fact, they can get ashigh as stamina builds AND this is without the Spelldamage Mundus.
And we all know Mages use high damage setups without really using Magicka Recovery whereas Stamina builds really rely on their Stamina Recovery for rolling/blocking.

I agree with the commenter who suggested we should be comparing frags to wb from maxed-out builds.

The imbalance could be compared quite easily using ultimates (as they scale off of highest stat) on two characters without racial passives or attribute points (to remove the possibility of skewed test results from racial bonus).

blabafat

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Jules

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Takllin

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

Huckdabuck

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

Logic by ZOSense!

Jules

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

Ridiculous V. Retotted

Emma_Overload

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

Yeah, I remember when they said that, but it's bunk. There's no such thing as "ranged" attacks in the IC sewers... everybody is in everybody's face all the time.

Huckdabuck

Jules wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

Ridiculous V. Retotted

Jules that sig.....just EWWWWWWWWW. Something just looks so wrong in it.....what is it? Oh yeah the non bella toon. Must fix ASAP.

Takllin

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

Ridiculous V. Retotted

Jules that sig.....just EWWWWWWWWW. Something just looks so wrong in it.....what is it? Oh yeah the non bella toon. Must fix ASAP.

Here I thought you would suggest she needs to use one of your TS avatar pics...

Alcast

Well, let 2 players fight with maxed out stats and I am pretty sure the Mage will wreck the Stamboy

Ghostbane

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

I look forward to a S+B SD buff then.

Jules

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

Ridiculous V. Retotted

Jules that sig.....just EWWWWWWWWW. Something just looks so wrong in it.....what is it? Oh yeah the non bella toon. Must fix ASAP.

Ugh, I was drunk that day.

Ghostbane wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

I look forward to a S+B SD buff then.

Yeah seriously. Sounds like a bunch of phooey that they made up to cover the unintended +SD that 2h & DW got.

Huckdabuck

Takllin wrote: »

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I agree with everything you stated here

Weapon damage is way easier to stack than spell damage, thus why stamina builds are able to achieve way higher damage numbers


Also, the masters weapons, at least the greatsword and dagger(I've tested), do increase your spell damage.

Yes, like all 2h and DW.
But why should magicka builds have to use utterly useless weapons with stam skills and stam passives that 90% of which don't apply to them just to get some measly spell damage?! It's ridiculous. Destro and resto should give max spell damage, why is it any other way

Doesn't make sense to me either, but they covered this before on an ESO Live segment. The gist of their reasoning was that melee weapons you have to be up close to use, so those should yield a higher damage number because you are much more likely to take damage as a melee than at range. Risk vs Reward.

Ridiculous V. Retotted

Jules that sig.....just EWWWWWWWWW. Something just looks so wrong in it.....what is it? Oh yeah the non bella toon. Must fix ASAP.

Here I thought you would suggest she needs to use one of your TS avatar pics...

If she really loved him as much as she claims....she would!