Spell Dmg vs Weapon Dmg Imbalances -- *Updated for Patch 2.1*

Samuel_Bantien

@Xsorus
Pixysticks quit the game, the man you are praising for a glass cannon build, because of Nirnhoned. Sypher can 1vX the players that can't defend themselves and kill those that do not stack Nirnhoned. Not stacking Nirnhoned gives magicka builds a viable chance. Stamina builds can go glass cannon because they do not have to be afraid of magicka builds due to Nirnhoned. You bring up 20k crystal frags being dropped to 10k, that can be done as Stamina builds too when you build for it. He uses spams Entropy - 20% damage buff, in order for the proc chance of Crystal Fragments - another 20% damage buff, plus another 20% spell damage from just using Entropy. He's a full glass cannon - and again he quit. How about blocking? You had blocking as one of your arguments so his 10k crystal fragments are now 5k against anyone who is not using a sword and shield, or how about dodging - that seems to also be a basis of your arguments too. Crystal Fragments now does 0 damage when you dodge it. - Its bloody insane killing players that don't block with a Crystal Frag proc (in which the multiple chances of procing thus increasing the damage by more than 20%) has been fixed.

Your closing argument is:

Xsorus wrote: »

And I switched from stamina dk which I've ran since the beginning of the game to magicka build, despite your nirnhoned complaints. It may be because I realize that not hitting anyone at all because they are dodging is worse then hitting them for 5k damage when they have 20k at most hp.

You realize "not hitting anyone at all because they are dodging is worse then hitting them for 5k damage when they have 20k at most hp". What you just said makes 0 sense and needs to be revised to something that makes sense. I'm getting two signals - Its worse taking 5k damage while they are dodging when they only have 20k health, or I do not attack while they are dodging because it is a waste of magicka. You're saying Nirnhoned is balanced because very few skills (which just so happen to be magicka - which is then negated by Nirnhoned) can hit through dodge - which is bloody insane when you think about it. Nirnhoned has been announced that it is being nerfed - atleast ZoS can admit that Nirnhoned is broken, why can't you? The main reason why Weapon Damage > Spell Damage is because of Nirnhoned. In the end, it's all about player skill, you can say that Magicka beats Stamina because some skills go through dodge - which is what i'm seeing as the basis to your argument because you ALWAYS bring it up during your replies. But when player skill is mitigated by just wearing an armor trait the balance is not there. The worst player can wear a full set of Nirnhoned and be the tankiest player in game - when it comes to magicka builds, in which you fail to realize that. You seem to bring up two players - one that has quit the game because of the bug (Pixysticks) and Sypher (who is always switching between magicka and, but again has stated that stamina will always be better because of the Nirnhoned outbreak). You cannot bring these two up because they have admitted that Nirnhoned is overpowered and should be toned down. You bring these two players up, but you cannot say that Nirnhoned needs to be nerfed? Where's your logic.

According to @Fmonk, you seem to bring the same argument everywhere and I honestly feel like i'm talking to someone who just repeats himself - in which every reply stated from you has been repeated over and over. I am tired of repeating myself to someone who keeps repeating himself. We will see tomorrow how much damage your "9k lava whips" can do against me - a vampire in 46k spell resist w/ DW or even yet I can equip a shield for 52k spell resist, but I will go as I stated and let you kill me several times for the death recap, several times in 9k spell resist and several times in 46k, I would also like to do so in 52k spell resist. I will not be blocking during these tests so damage can drop as far as 50 (DW) -75 (S&B)% if I did block. I will post the results here for everyone to see. The tensions are growing and I happily await tomorrow. Please give me a time in which you may be online so we can be online at the same time.

Xsorus

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

@Xsorus
Pixysticks quit the game, the man you are praising for a glass cannon build, because of Nirnhoned. Sypher can 1vX the players that can't defend themselves and kill those that do not stack Nirnhoned. Not stacking Nirnhoned gives magicka builds a viable chance. Stamina builds can go glass cannon because they do not have to be afraid of magicka builds due to Nirnhoned. You bring up 20k crystal frags being dropped to 10k, that can be done as Stamina builds too when you build for it. He uses spams Entropy - 20% damage buff, in order for the proc chance of Crystal Fragments - another 20% damage buff, plus another 20% spell damage from just using Entropy. He's a full glass cannon - and again he quit. How about blocking? You had blocking as one of your arguments so his 10k crystal fragments are now 5k against anyone who is not using a sword and shield, or how about dodging - that seems to also be a basis of your arguments too. Crystal Fragments now does 0 damage when you dodge it. - Its bloody insane killing players that don't block with a Crystal Frag proc (in which the multiple chances of procing thus increasing the damage by more than 20%) has been fixed.

Your closing argument is:

Xsorus wrote: »

And I switched from stamina dk which I've ran since the beginning of the game to magicka build, despite your nirnhoned complaints. It may be because I realize that not hitting anyone at all because they are dodging is worse then hitting them for 5k damage when they have 20k at most hp.

You realize "not hitting anyone at all because they are dodging is worse then hitting them for 5k damage when they have 20k at most hp". What you just said makes 0 sense and needs to be revised to something that makes sense. I'm getting two signals - Its worse taking 5k damage while they are dodging when they only have 20k health, or I do not attack while they are dodging because it is a waste of magicka. You're saying Nirnhoned is balanced because very few skills (which just so happen to be magicka - which is then negated by Nirnhoned) can hit through dodge - which is bloody insane when you think about it. Nirnhoned has been announced that it is being nerfed - atleast ZoS can admit that Nirnhoned is broken, why can't you? The main reason why Weapon Damage > Spell Damage is because of Nirnhoned. In the end, it's all about player skill, you can say that Magicka beats Stamina because some skills go through dodge - which is what i'm seeing as the basis to your argument because you ALWAYS bring it up during your replies. But when player skill is mitigated by just wearing an armor trait the balance is not there. The worst player can wear a full set of Nirnhoned and be the tankiest player in game - when it comes to magicka builds, in which you fail to realize that. You seem to bring up two players - one that has quit the game because of the bug (Pixysticks) and Sypher (who is always switching between magicka and, but again has stated that stamina will always be better because of the Nirnhoned outbreak). You cannot bring these two up because they have admitted that Nirnhoned is overpowered and should be toned down. You bring these two players up, but you cannot say that Nirnhoned needs to be nerfed? Where's your logic.

According to @Fmonk, you seem to bring the same argument everywhere and I honestly feel like i'm talking to someone who just repeats himself - in which every reply stated from you has been repeated over and over. I am tired of repeating myself to someone who keeps repeating himself. We will see tomorrow how much damage your "9k lava whips" can do against me - a vampire in 46k spell resist w/ DW or even yet I can equip a shield for 52k spell resist, but I will go as I stated and let you kill me several times for the death recap, several times in 9k spell resist and several times in 46k, I would also like to do so in 52k spell resist. I will not be blocking during these tests so damage can drop as far as 50 (DW) -75 (S&B)% if I did block. I will post the results here for everyone to see. The tensions are growing and I happily await tomorrow. Please give me a time in which you may be online so we can be online at the same time.

I'm not praising his glass cannon build, you posted a screen shot of a high damage building jabs and said you've never seen magicka builds do that sort of damage, I pointed out that pixy did more damage then that. In fact there is a metric ton of sorc videos doing just that.
So now Sypher is just killing noobs now that he switched back to magicka? He's not killing good players? To go glass cannon as a stamina user you generally can't stack nirnhoned like you state, remember that Sypher video killing the sorcs wasn't glass cannon, it was a very defensive setup specifically for those fights. Pretty much if ya go true glass cannon ya don't build for nirnhoned currently. This is true for both magicka and stamina.
Now we are talking about blocking, which works against pretty much every attack so I'm not sure why you are bringing it into the equation. Are you implying that magicka users aren't blocking now or something? Also why would a two handed or dual wielding stamina user block a crystal frags when you can dodge roll it for cheaper cost and avoid all damage?

How do you not get that it's better to do 5k damage to someone dodging then to do zero damage to someone dodging?
Is that hard to understand, and saying nirnhoned is going to be nerfed therefor it's overpowered completely ignores the fact that most likely sorcs and nightblades are going to eat some kind of nerf next patch. So while nirn might eat a nerf it's being toned down because magicka setups in general will be toned down.

Samuel_Bantien

@Xsorus
You seem to have a strong taste in cherry picking and a burning hatred toward Sorcs and Nightblades. You decided to point out the worst possible idea of magicka build damage - a move that was once bugged and is now fixed. You seem to be ignoring the fact stated and it is even on one of the patch notes - I believe 2.0.8. - Look at it yourself. Then you bring up Sypher, here's what he wrote in the same thread you keep mentioning:

Sypher wrote: »

@Agrippa_Invisus This build has little sustain or survivability it's very niche and it's built to gank 1-3 players or be a part of a group so it's not focused down. I've just been having some fun with it running into groups and hoping for the best.

@Juraigr I've been playing a vamp Stam DK and posted a vid and streamed with it as well many times. I'm confused as to why my lack of playing DK should concern you though :P

Glass cannon anyone? - Gank 1-3 players? - This will only work if the players are not wearing Nirnhoned - against as I have ran this build since 1.6 PTS.
YOU EVEN POSTED IN THE SAME THREAD DO YOU READ? You praised him and then you write in the "*Updated Poll* Strongest Class In PVP" thread:

Xsorus wrote: »

I voted sorc, but I kind of view Nightblades close to them...if there was a Sorc/Nightblade combo option I would of picked that.

First of all you give 0 explanation as to why you voted these two classes up top, just like you have done in this thread. You only state things from a different players view, yet twist it to your own because of a video: AKA Sypher & Pixysticks.

The only way he kills people with this build is if he kills idle players, no heals, no shields, just standing there. Its the same as pouring oils on players repairing, you will not kill any of them if they are being healed or purged. When he cloaks in Magicka Detonation, players can still see the red AoE warning. You seem to have a strong distate for Sorcerer's and Nightblades as I stated already. What is wrong with you? 0 explanations, is it because of the videos you watch? It seems that is where you get your facts at. If I make videos of a Templar 1vXing i'm afraid you would start a call to arms against Templars too.

Then there is your closing statement about dodging. When I quoted you, I wanted you to read what you wrote. I have had no idea what you meant because it was so poorly written I had to try and make two different understandings. Again, please stop cherry picking portions of sentences and twisting it. Read the whole sentence, you are not a politician. Yes it is agreeable Magicka builds will need to be toned down, but so will Stamina builds - do not deny this as they still have 3/4ths the spell resistance of heavy armor while we have 1/8th the armor of Heavy. I believe the best way to balance pvp is to bring back the Impenetrable trait, not by returning it to its former glory, but by buffing it to the potential it had before. Instead of its weak self it is at right now, it should decrease the crit damage done by 10% not the weak percentage it is right now. Critical damage does 50% more damage, place 1 Impenetrable gear on and it will now do 45% more damage - This ensure you do not get 1 hit nuked like you see in the Sypher bombing video - if that is what you're worrying about or 1 shotted like the Biting Jabs picture I posted. Nirnhoned could just be a PvE thing like how Impen WAS a pvp thing.

olsborg

What magicka damage needs is a crafted set equivalent of hundings rage or such and a magicka dmg mundus and light armor passive equivalent of medium armor passive to increase dmg per armor piece worn by a %.

Xsorus

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

@Xsorus
You seem to have a strong taste in cherry picking and a burning hatred toward Sorcs and Nightblades. You decided to point out the worst possible idea of magicka build damage - a move that was once bugged and is now fixed. You seem to be ignoring the fact stated and it is even on one of the patch notes - I believe 2.0.8. - Look at it yourself. Then you bring up Sypher, here's what he wrote in the same thread you keep mentioning:

Sypher wrote: »

@Agrippa_Invisus This build has little sustain or survivability it's very niche and it's built to gank 1-3 players or be a part of a group so it's not focused down. I've just been having some fun with it running into groups and hoping for the best.

@Juraigr I've been playing a vamp Stam DK and posted a vid and streamed with it as well many times. I'm confused as to why my lack of playing DK should concern you though :P

Glass cannon anyone? - Gank 1-3 players? - This will only work if the players are not wearing Nirnhoned - against as I have ran this build since 1.6 PTS.
YOU EVEN POSTED IN THE SAME THREAD DO YOU READ? You praised him and then you write in the "*Updated Poll* Strongest Class In PVP" thread:

Xsorus wrote: »

I voted sorc, but I kind of view Nightblades close to them...if there was a Sorc/Nightblade combo option I would of picked that.

First of all you give 0 explanation as to why you voted these two classes up top, just like you have done in this thread. You only state things from a different players view, yet twist it to your own because of a video: AKA Sypher & Pixysticks.

The only way he kills people with this build is if he kills idle players, no heals, no shields, just standing there. Its the same as pouring oils on players repairing, you will not kill any of them if they are being healed or purged. When he cloaks in Magicka Detonation, players can still see the red AoE warning. You seem to have a strong distate for Sorcerer's and Nightblades as I stated already. What is wrong with you? 0 explanations, is it because of the videos you watch? It seems that is where you get your facts at. If I make videos of a Templar 1vXing i'm afraid you would start a call to arms against Templars too.

Then there is your closing statement about dodging. When I quoted you, I wanted you to read what you wrote. I have had no idea what you meant because it was so poorly written I had to try and make two different understandings. Again, please stop cherry picking portions of sentences and twisting it. Read the whole sentence, you are not a politician. Yes it is agreeable Magicka builds will need to be toned down, but so will Stamina builds - do not deny this as they still have 3/4ths the spell resistance of heavy armor while we have 1/8th the armor of Heavy. I believe the best way to balance pvp is to bring back the Impenetrable trait, not by returning it to its former glory, but by buffing it to the potential it had before. Instead of its weak self it is at right now, it should decrease the crit damage done by 10% not the weak percentage it is right now. Critical damage does 50% more damage, place 1 Impenetrable gear on and it will now do 45% more damage - This ensure you do not get 1 hit nuked like you see in the Sypher bombing video - if that is what you're worrying about or 1 shotted like the Biting Jabs picture I posted. Nirnhoned could just be a PvE thing like how Impen WAS a pvp thing.

Crystal fragments will easily still pop people for extreme damage, bugs aside you are looking at 10k against most players except those blocking lol
I'm not sure what you are talking about with Sypher, of course its a glass cannon, he instant killed 5 people in the video at once, that's going to require a lot of spell power to do that.
Are you asking why I view sorcs and nightblades at the top? Maybe because I've what sorcs can do and I play a nightblade both magical and stamina versions. Right now both of those classes are on top because of extreme burst and the ability to escape. I thought this was pretty well known by now.
Umm he kills players by instant killing them with prox detonation and the pbae stun ult, if ya build right it's close to 25k pbae damage instantly, and it works super well for a class that can bloody stealth before hand.
Also again, you are aware I play a nightblade right? And my last video was of my nightblade correct? Saying I have a strong distaste for the class is inaccurate, I just dislike people being disingenuous with their statements, like magicka being dead because of nirnhoned when I play magicka builds and know that's ***.
I agree with you on impenetrable, it was a huge mistake to change that trait.. Simply because it increases everyone's damage to stupid levels and then they went and gutted hp as well. As for nerfing stamina burst they should also do that a long with nerfing classes like sorcs and such. The gameplay has gotten far to bursty, I mean bloody hell I went vampire on my dk even though I know I can be instant killed by camo hunter but at the same time I can be instant killed by so many things I mine as well get the free stealth speed and the bat swarm ult.

Samuel_Bantien

@Xsorus
All my characters are magicka, so I do know what I am talking about when it comes to the "disingenuous with their statements". There is a huge gap betweeen magicka and stamina and 1 common link - Nirnhoned. Blocking and dodging are two different things, sadly stamina can do both more than magicka. Sadly when built "right" you are facing Nirnhoneless players/Lowbies that do not have enough spell resistance to withstand a glass cannon AoE - take in mind that this spell also has a 2 second cast time and takes 4 seconds to explode after - a total of 6 seconds to do 1 AoE hit is more or less balanced.

Sypher's build is again as he stated - and works the same way as mine when I feel like slotting Soul Tether. Group of enemies are stacked and idle, no shields, no healing springs going out or mutagens out, then you may burst. At max I can hit overstacked nirnhoned users for 10k Proximity crits w/ a 3k spell damage and 33k magicka (plus 8% damage from Relentless Focus equaled to around a 14k tooltip) setup. 25k Proximites are on lowbies or players that have not hit v14 and or players that do not stack nirnhoned. It is agreeable that aoe 1 shots should not happen, but that is why Impen should be reinstated so magicka builds will not have to run glass cannons in order to be viable.

I do not know you and I have never seen any of your videos, so I am sorry for assuming anything if I did. The difference between magicka and stamina is that one build requires a certain AoE 2 second cast to be able to destroy things as fast as 1 build that can do a long range cast time or an up close cast time that does a CC. When I ran stamina I could easily hit 10k Flying Blades with a sustain build with Magicka I have to use a 2 second cast to be able to hit even come close to that against a nirnhoned opponent.

Atleast on your closing statement I completely agree with it all. I have been thinking that Nirnhoned (when overstacked) is pretty much the 1.5 Impen against Magicka builds if that makes sense to you. You do about the same or (the majority of the time) less when you crit the same amount of damage than the tooltip. There is no "Nirnhoned" armor trait to combat Stamina builds unless you run heavy with reinforced so why should there be a way to combat Magicka? This game has become way far too bursty and should be toned down so other builds - and builds that have been advertised "A.K.A. play as you want"/Hybrid builds - can be viable in PvP too.

Xsorus

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

@Xsorus
All my characters are magicka, so I do know what I am talking about when it comes to the "disingenuous with their statements". There is a huge gap betweeen magicka and stamina and 1 common link - Nirnhoned. Blocking and dodging are two different things, sadly stamina can do both more than magicka. Sadly when built "right" you are facing Nirnhoneless players/Lowbies that do not have enough spell resistance to withstand a glass cannon AoE - take in mind that this spell also has a 2 second cast time and takes 4 seconds to explode after - a total of 6 seconds to do 1 AoE hit is more or less balanced.

Sypher's build is again as he stated - and works the same way as mine when I feel like slotting Soul Tether. Group of enemies are stacked and idle, no shields, no healing springs going out or mutagens out, then you may burst. At max I can hit overstacked nirnhoned users for 10k Proximity crits w/ a 3k spell damage and 33k magicka (plus 8% damage from Relentless Focus equaled to around a 14k tooltip) setup. 25k Proximites are on lowbies or players that have not hit v14 and or players that do not stack nirnhoned. It is agreeable that aoe 1 shots should not happen, but that is why Impen should be reinstated so magicka builds will not have to run glass cannons in order to be viable.

I do not know you and I have never seen any of your videos, so I am sorry for assuming anything if I did. The difference between magicka and stamina is that one build requires a certain AoE 2 second cast to be able to destroy things as fast as 1 build that can do a long range cast time or an up close cast time that does a CC. When I ran stamina I could easily hit 10k Flying Blades with a sustain build with Magicka I have to use a 2 second cast to be able to hit even come close to that against a nirnhoned opponent.

Atleast on your closing statement I completely agree with it all. I have been thinking that Nirnhoned (when overstacked) is pretty much the 1.5 Impen against Magicka builds if that makes sense to you. You do about the same or (the majority of the time) less when you crit the same amount of damage than the tooltip. There is no "Nirnhoned" armor trait to combat Stamina builds unless you run heavy with reinforced so why should there be a way to combat Magicka? This game has become way far too bursty and should be toned down so other builds - and builds that have been advertised "A.K.A. play as you want"/Hybrid builds - can be viable in PvP too.

1. Dodging yes, blocking not really, mainly because the way blocking works it tends to work better with magicka users then stamina users, trying to block as a stamina user ends up with ya out of stamina and no damage which is why I've had far more success with it on magicka dk then stamina dk, you also don't need heavy like ya need medium armor for dodging.
2. No you will pretty much do that damage to anyone who's not running 52k spell resist which means anyone who's 4 nirn or less which is a vast majority of the players, go look at the Sypher thread from the video you originally posted where pixy sticks says unless you have over 35k resist most magicka users will flat out ignore it, and unless you want to give up dropped sets which are some of the best in the game, he also stated that Sypher resist could of been countered simply by running the right mundus stone. Now granted he did say nirnhoned was overpowred but when ya need 52k spell resist just to equal 20k physical resist something isn't right either.
3. Currently the only build that's stamina and doing anything similar to prox and soul tether combo is snipe plus ambush and it's bloody single target. There is nothing stamina has that comes close to prox and soul tether aoe damage, nothing.. Single target wise it'll still rivals single target damage as well, and sorcs can push some consider damage with curse and such.
4. Flying blades while nice will get trounced by a single dk with wings, and again we are talking single target damage vs instant large scale pbae damage
5. Right now shields are the counter to stamina damage and if you don't have shields blocking or shear unavoidable damage via things like concealed blade and lava whip. Though nothing is really stopping you from going heavy or in tear grants case medium armor as a magicka user if you want more defense. Nirnhoned is the only thing keeping magicka users in check right now, the suckiness of most stamina builds that aren't nightblade is what keeps them in check .. Like seriously play a stamina dk once vs a nightblade and you'll see, it's bloody stupid how easy it is on a nightblade in comparsion.

Tankqull

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm not praising his glass cannon build, you posted a screen shot of a high damage building jabs and said you've never seen magicka builds do that sort of damage, I pointed out that pixy did more damage then that. In fact there is a metric ton of sorc videos doing just that.

you realized all of that footage was done prior to the frag proc stack fix?
if you are referring to those sorcs that buffed the shi* out of overload i do agree it does to much dmg for the cost but that will not be touched saddly as it is the only way for sorcs to stay in touch dps wise in pve

olsborg wrote: »

What magicka damage needs is a crafted set equivalent of hundings rage or such and a magicka dmg mundus and light armor passive equivalent of medium armor passive to increase dmg per armor piece worn by a %.

actually i feel it should be the other way round, hundings needs to be changed to be usefull beside the 5 set bonus wich then could be taken away, and those gimmicks of medium armor should just be erased to be brought in line with ligth armor, and warrior changed to a flat dmg reduce or stamina cost reduction as the burst is allready to high regardless of the resource and should not be further increased.

Cthalion

Daveheart wrote: »

There's also a 6% weapon damage bonus in medium armor.

12% actually.

Normally, I'd ignorantly ridicule this post. However, playing a magicka character opened my eyes. The Original poster is correct, great post, totally agree.

Oughash

Teargrants wrote: »

4 Magnus, 4 Eye of Mara, 4 Healers, 2k spell dmg unbuffed. going w/ three 4 sets or four 3 sets maximizes the number of set bonuses you get.

The maximum number of set bonuses is actually 5 / 5 / 2pc Monster. But then you're a bit restricted on which sets to choose and the 5-set bonuses aren't always that good.

And, 4 Magnus / 4 Mara / 4 Healer is only three stacks of spell damage, so you get to 2k by using two swords?

timidobserver

I find it hilarious that the stam defeners are justifying their damage advantage with the lack or a stam regen mundus. Outside of pvp, no decent magicka build uses that mundus.

Yonkit

As a high weapon dmg build, there are two types of characters I want to fight the least. A 5 heavy (Ithink) templar like Akarios Alexios (spelled that wrong ) who does plenty of dmg and CC with his skills, or a 5 heavy (again just guessing) DK like Mitra Telvanni. You can't roll dodge a whip, and maybe they're not hitting for 10k whips, but he hits for 6k and a couple of those puts a player firmly on the defensive. There's plenty of defensive capabilities still for caster builds with heavy armor and SnB.

The way I see it now, there's a more circular path of what type of build succeeds more against other types, and the high weapon dmg builds have some fearful counters out there. What I don't worry about too much are the glass cannon magicka builds like many sorcs who mainly rely upon easily dodged or cloaked projectiles. It's truly unfortunate that players who succeeded against everything before are now being forced to redefine how they play... but then again maybe it's not.

Ezareth

Xsorus wrote: »

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

@Xsorus
Please look at the video in this thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168466/2v2-pvp-tournament-final-resut/p1

Feel free to watch the whole video if you have not to see the flaws on Nirnhoned.
Or -
Skip to 3:30.
Watch Sypher as he ambushes into 5 Daedric Mines - each with a base tooltip of atleast 4500 when magicka builds - according to Arcane Karstyll, "My mine tooltip unbuffed hit 4240 for each mine, buffed 4658 damage." And only drops to 32% from 79% (16k health). He is running full Nirnhoned. Watch as he eats mines for only 2.9k crits and 1.5k non-crits. This is a video of Nirnhoned at its finest. He later describes that he is using full Nirnhoned (w/ the exception of engine guardian) with Whitestrake's BUT get this, his suprise attacks crit for 8k - a GREAT example of how well weapon damage improves without very much or even little amounts of weapon damage sets can affect total output. - No intentions at calling anyone out on this issue.
I of course love that my critical hits hit for less than my tool tip and I am positive every other magicka build feels the same. I feel the urge to say that no build deserves to have their damage reduced by 2/3rds without blocking and should've been fixed when this issue was announced during the 1.6 PTS. Should I find more clips and point out the flaws of Nirnhoned for you Xsorus?

You want me to show ya Sypher video where he instant kills 5 people with magicka nightblade?
There is countless videos of sorcs just ripping through people as well. i can show you video of me 3 shotting dodge rolling users left and right as well. Do you know why? Because a vast majority of them aren't running nirmhoned like you are crying about, they are running things like skirmisher. So you whining about a very defensive setup taking low damage vs them hitting someone with very low armor (and then having it pretty much ignored completely) isn't much of a concern to me. Against most players you pretty much need well over 33k spell resist before you even begin to negate there damage which means most players won't be running it since it requires at least 5 to 6 pieces of nirnhoned to hit that level of resist (I break 32k with 5 light for example and 4 nirnhoned using a shield)

oh incase your wondering I have video of me with 33k spell resist taking about 5k per crit from a sorcs mines. This is with bloody "cap" spell resist. I have zero sympathy for most magicka users since I play one and know what's it like. God sorcs would be absolutely stupid right now without nirnhoned

Most Medium armor dodge rollers don't need to run full Nirnhoned. My NB Build uses Skirmisher and only 2 pieces of Nirnhoned (+48% to spell resist). Consider Base full Medium Armor + Phase Champion Passive + Shadow Barrier Passive = Easy to get 40K Spell resist when you're a perma roller.

Sypher killing 5 people with a mana detonation /ultimate combo means at much as me killing 30 people in a row with overload.....nothing. The players who are dying to me and Sypher and the rest of skilled players out there are fodder and we all know it so don't try to make an argument out of it. I guarantee your Magicka DK is going to have a much harder time killing me than your Stamina DK because I'm sitting on 34K Spell Resist with only 3 Nirnhoned in Light armor due to Boundless Storm.

Ezareth

Xsorus wrote: »

Most high damage glass cannon builds don't have sustain, for example you bring up pixy sticks 1k magicka regen, I have around 900 stamina regen when I ran 2 handed stamina dk, I sure as hell didn't have anywhere near 39k stamina like pixy does with magicka.
He also gets ult from you just damaging his absorb shield, so he really doesn't need to light attack, dual wield works really well for sorcs for that reason.
If the argument is that magicka builds are forced into glass cannon to reamain competitive you hold even less ground because virtually every stamina build is forced into glass cannon setups, you don't see to many stamina DKs running those new stam dots now do you, because if you don't have these burst extreme damage builds you will not compete against absorb shields.
Also saying he quit because of nirnhoned is disingenuous, since he was bloody hitting for 20k on crystal frags, even cutting that in half would still yields 10k crystal frags... That's bloody insane when ya think about it.

You don't get ult for taking damage to your damage shields. You get ult when you block damage which costs stamina.

Glass cannon stamina builds die quickly and kill quickly. Balanced stamina builds (not max damage but still high damage + high regen) are by far the most dangerous and effective.

He never *hit* for 20K. That isn't possible unless he was bugging the Fragment proc. You can see with his max magicka build with 2972 spell damage he only hits for 11362. That's 15906.8 with Empower and Frag-proc which is a 23860 crit, a bit more if he was running %Crit damage increase.

Joy_Division

Samuel - You aren't going to convince Xsorus. Ever since 1.6 came out he has been railing against OP sorcs and he is convinced magicka still, somehow, has the upperhand vs. stamina. He is a good player but loses objectivity with this regard (he basically says norn is OK because only a few people will actually get 50k+ spell resist - and those are primarily magicka users - as if that somehow made broken mechanics OK and he still cites corner case examples of Sorc OPness such as the crystal frag proc bug).

I find it ironic that Pixie quit because of nirnhoned because I basically confronted him straight up that nirn was crap because it eliminated magicka options and said he was OK with that since sorcs could stack spell pen.

Xeven

Yonkit wrote: »

What I don't worry about too much are the glass cannon magicka builds like many sorcs who mainly rely upon easily dodged or cloaked projectiles.

Except for me. I think I've blown you up more times than I can count because you're not expecting detonation curse streak sorcs. I gotta say, it feels good to blow you up bro. =D

technohic

Xeven wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

What I don't worry about too much are the glass cannon magicka builds like many sorcs who mainly rely upon easily dodged or cloaked projectiles.

Except for me. I think I've blown you up more times than I can count because you're not expecting detonation curse streak sorcs. I gotta say, it feels good to blow you up bro. =D

Yes, the soon to be new meta of suicide bombers with detonate and some form of gap closer. Preferably with an escape.

Oughash

Xeven wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

What I don't worry about too much are the glass cannon magicka builds like many sorcs who mainly rely upon easily dodged or cloaked projectiles.

Except for me. I think I've blown you up more times than I can count because you're not expecting detonation curse streak sorcs. I gotta say, it feels good to blow you up bro. =D

Mate, everyone kills everyone in this game. Its the running average of fights and matchups that Yonkit was referring to.

Some examples:
1. The stamina dodge roller build is bad against magicka DK in heavy. Whip goes through roll and the DK is gonna perma block. Does that mean the DK will win every engagement? No, plenty of times the DK will get blown up.
2. The afore-mentioned magicka DK is bad against a magicka sorc. The sorc has mobility, strog defense, and stong burst. Does that mean the sorc wins everytime? No, sometimes the DK will catch him w/o enough stam to break free.
3. The Magicka sorc has a tough time against the dodge-rolling stam build. The stam build has a 2H gap closer and nice ranged attacks with bow. Does that mean the stam user wins every time?

Anyway -- the above is a simplification. The point being that just b/c you kill people on the field doesn't mean that what Yonkit says is incorrect.

Yonkit

Xeven wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

What I don't worry about too much are the glass cannon magicka builds like many sorcs who mainly rely upon easily dodged or cloaked projectiles.

Except for me. I think I've blown you up more times than I can count because you're not expecting detonation curse streak sorcs. I gotta say, it feels good to blow you up bro. =D

Please It's not that I'm not expecting it, but you're the only one who pulls it off well enough to change my build to combat it! There are others who try the same thing, but they go boom before I do, so it's all good

Also, don't teach them your ways, I don't want to have to change, my friend.

But that's what I'm suggesting. I could do things differently with my build and playstyle to combat your approach, but that would leave me vulnerable to other approaches, and vice-versa. It's a roshambo of combat where all good builds work in different ways against different opponents, and I like that.

I still have that nice 25k burst on you a few times. Feelsgoodman

Xeven

Yonkit wrote: »

I still have that nice 25k burst on you a few times. Feelsgoodman

NB OP. NERF.

Anyway @IshammaeI I wasnt saying he was wrong. Id never kill him without those three abilities. The problem is that you cant counter everything with only 10 slots.

Oughash

Xeven wrote: »

Yonkit wrote: »

I still have that nice 25k burst on you a few times. Feelsgoodman

NB OP. NERF.

Anyway @IshammaeI I wasnt saying he was wrong. Id never kill him without those three abilities. The problem is that you cant counter everything with only 10 slots.

For sure. See you on the field!

Jules

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

You can't really bring up Pixysticks because he quit due to Nirnhoned/spell resist stacking. He is tired of it, and almost all magicka builds are tired of it too. He is like me, I do not want to go stamina in order to be competitive and neither do the majority of magicka players, but at this rate magicka builds are a dying breed. I lurk the forums way too much and can find and understand both sides to the argument. Fighting on the side of Nirnhoned is a battle that will be surely lost - and it is already lost as ZoS is nerfing Nirnhoned, but the nerf is not happening soon enough.

The question is why, why, WHY this has not been fixed yet. ZOS can hot fix a good grind in under 24 hours but an armor trait that is gimping half the population stays as is for months now. #commonsense

Jules

This thread turned into a nirnhoned ok vs nerf nirnhoned pretty quickly. Which is ok, just not the original point. But the defenses of nirnhoned are weak and nonsensical. Imagine if reinforced stacked the way nirn does rather than per piece. Imagine if I could run around with 50k physical resist. Pretty sure it would aggravate people if their WB's hit for 50% or less than tooltip.

My flame lashes on tool tip sit at around 4.6k depending on gear.
My spell damage chills between 1.7-2.1k with the higher end being very difficult to sustain d/t poor regen.
I've seen my whips go off multiple times for 1.5-3k and just sat dumbfounded. Regardless of spell and physical resist there NEEDS to be a cap on how much dmg you can mitigate with these stats. Otherwise, we're looking at a full stam Cyrodiil and then precious nirnhoned will be utterly useless against other stam users.

Furthermore, to those saying you can stack Magicka high enough for it to be stronger than weapon dmg- just no. You would have to be a very specific class (sorcerer), specific race (breton/altmer) using specific (and crappy) magicka toggles (inner light/bound aegis) to achieve these insane magicka pools you speak of. It may be possible, that does not make it viable. It is also an incredibly pinpointed build whereas stacking weapon damage comes with a variety of options.

Understandably, stamina users are happy bc their long-desired builds are now viable. Magicka was the meta for a very long time and the defense of stam and weapon damage makes sense. But gimping magicka builds to create opportunity for stamina builds is not balance. We deserve to play and fight with equal opportunity. I should be able to have as much spell dmg as my opponent has weapon damage. He should be able to have as much stam regen as I have magicka regen. We should have the ability to stack resources to equal or relatively equal pools. And then it would be a competition of skill rather than just easy moding it. Stamina users should be in support of viable magicka builds as variety lends itself to better competition. I can't understand why anyone would be in favor of half the population being gimped.

Teargrants

Jules wrote: »

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

You can't really bring up Pixysticks because he quit due to Nirnhoned/spell resist stacking. He is tired of it, and almost all magicka builds are tired of it too. He is like me, I do not want to go stamina in order to be competitive and neither do the majority of magicka players, but at this rate magicka builds are a dying breed. I lurk the forums way too much and can find and understand both sides to the argument. Fighting on the side of Nirnhoned is a battle that will be surely lost - and it is already lost as ZoS is nerfing Nirnhoned, but the nerf is not happening soon enough.

The question is why, why, WHY this has not been fixed yet. ZOS can hot fix a good grind in under 24 hours but an armor trait that is gimping half the population stays as is for months now. #commonsense

Yonkit

Jules wrote: »

lots of stuff

I have snipes hit enemies for 3k while blocking or using some other form of mitigation (i can hit a snipe for 30k+ in ideal situations), so I'm still not sure what the qq is about? I'm just super confused. There are good magicka users out there making things work and tearing things up. I can't think of more than maybe... 10 stam users that I've come across that are more than one trick ponies or worry me at all (maybe folks think of me as a one trick pony too, as a stam user it would only exemplify my point) in a fight, then there are tons of magicka users that give me problems.

Is it an L2P issue? Would you even consider that as a possibility? I mean I've changed my playstyle and build maybe 6 times on the stam side alone (not counting variations into caster nb builds) in the past couple months. Some work better than others, but still there's lots of room to grow..

Kater_Murr

...

Wreuntzylla

Jules wrote: »

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

You can't really bring up Pixysticks because he quit due to Nirnhoned/spell resist stacking. He is tired of it, and almost all magicka builds are tired of it too. He is like me, I do not want to go stamina in order to be competitive and neither do the majority of magicka players, but at this rate magicka builds are a dying breed. I lurk the forums way too much and can find and understand both sides to the argument. Fighting on the side of Nirnhoned is a battle that will be surely lost - and it is already lost as ZoS is nerfing Nirnhoned, but the nerf is not happening soon enough.

The question is why, why, WHY this has not been fixed yet. ZOS can hot fix a good grind in under 24 hours but an armor trait that is gimping half the population stays as is for months now. #commonsense

Because sorcs were owning so hard that people grew seriously sick of them, that's why. For a while there, every other toon I ran into was a sorc, which is a pretty good metric. They don't want to put sorcs back the way we were, but they also don't want to nerf sorcs into a hole. They mentioned in another thread that they were going to make sure they did this right. I would rather that happen than to see my sorc nerfed into the ground.

I took advantage of the grinds when they were available and can switch between different classes at VR14 pretty easily. My sorc is my main but, I play an NB right now. All the classes have strong builds, yes even Templar, the problem is that every class does not have a build for every play style. I don't play DK or Templar very much because I have a habit of falling behind my group, and sorcs and NBs have the best way to catch up while making it look like you were always right there with everyone else....

Samuel_Bantien

Yonkit wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

lots of stuff

I have snipes hit enemies for 3k while blocking or using some other form of mitigation (i can hit a snipe for 30k+ in ideal situations), so I'm still not sure what the qq is about? I'm just super confused. There are good magicka users out there making things work and tearing things up. I can't think of more than maybe... 10 stam users that I've come across that are more than one trick ponies or worry me at all (maybe folks think of me as a one trick pony too, as a stam user it would only exemplify my point) in a fight, then there are tons of magicka users that give me problems.

Is it an L2P issue? Would you even consider that as a possibility? I mean I've changed my playstyle and build maybe 6 times on the stam side alone (not counting variations into caster nb builds) in the past couple months. Some work better than others, but still there's lots of room to grow..

I can block with a shield or use my sorcerer's conjured ward, or even use mist form to mitigate snipe to those numbers but those are given abilities which are meant to counter damage - unlike Nirnhoned which is an armor trait that is able to mitigate the magicka population from being a threat. The "qq" is about how well Nirnhoned combats Spell Damage whiled Weapon Damage only being mitigated by heavy armor builds (which they are supposed to be able to soak up the damage).

The perfect situation would be the disappearance of Nirnhoned for magicka builds. If all magicka builds can rely on is Detonation - a 2 second cast time with a 4 second explosion (which can also be blocked, mitigated by dampen magicka/shields). This is hardly a L2P issue when 50% of your (magicka) damage is mitigated and the only chance of doing remotely close to the tooltip is by having it crit w/ max spell pen - and even then if you overstack Nirnhoned then your penetration CAN be completely mitigated. I'm running 3k spell damage, 33k magicka, w/ Apprentice Stone + nirnhoned weapons + 64 points into Spell Erosion (Spell Penetration) in the Apprentice and can only hit 2.5k normal Concealed Weapons out of a 6.9k tooltip - L2P issue, I would hardly think so. Another scenario where Magicka builds will win is if the enemy is not nirnhoned stacked, and is a glass cannon - as most cases it would often be a tie on who gets the first hit when it is glass vs glass.

The best case scenario for any Nightblade/stam(which you are) or magicka would be to gank a player with around 20k health from their horse, on their siege, is a vampire (for camo hunter), or they are not paying attention at all. Have you ever considered an 8k prox crit (which is also my own damage) to be balanced - out of a 15,468 Prox tooltip (which is my own damage - and I'm almost full Penetration w/ Nirnhoned weapons besides Divines traits on every piece of gear for The Apprentice Stone & 64 points into Spell Erosion) to be even remotely balanced - these numbers are on players (friends from another faction) that are not even blocking that stack Nirnhoned. The only real way for magicka builds - besides sorcerer's due to Conjured Ward & Streak - to be viable is if they run in groups (which almost any build is viable in group). I have yet to see a magicka build hit harder than even a 10k soul assault on me from magikca users. Eating ultimates and walking away with hardly a scratch hardly makes ultimates feel like an "ultimate".

Weapon Damage will dominate for the next few months until Nirnhoned is nerfed and that is fact - even looking at the Champion System passives gives even more reason to "qq" about this issue. With Champion Points players can stack CP into passives such ignoring direct "Magicka/Fire/Ice/Shock" damage while also being able to put more points into more Spell Resistance to synergize with Nirnhoned.

Weapon Damage can have w/ procs up to 5k and can be sustained at almost full uptime on groups w/ Caltrops up from Ravager w/ defenses from given Weapon Passives that reduce the cost of weapon abilities stacked on top of Medium Armor passives - minimum of 41% w/ 7/7 medium. Light Armor only has 28% cost reduction. Medium also grants 12% more weapon damage - which is only further boosted by Momentum and Weapon Damage proc sets (Skirmisher, Air, Ravager) + 200 from Warrior, while Light Armor has 4736. Sadly Light Armor does not have any sets to further increase Spell Penetration - besides the chances of running Nirnhoned (costly to some players)/Sharpened (which is affected by enemies total SR), Apprentice (3200 Spell Penetration w/ loss of Atronach for our sustain), & CP passives (which is also affected by total SR, but can also be countered by other CP passives as mentioned above). Magicka builds need to go complete glass in order to have competitive damage while a stam build in Whitestrakes & Nirnhoned Armor could hit harder than magicka builds with a wrecking blow.

The main thing I would like is to have Impenetrable reinstated when Nirnhoned gets nerfed. Impen would just need to ignore more Critical Damage to a larger percentage than it does now to remove many glass cannon builds from 1 shotting players. And Atleast Impenetrable would work against both Weapon Damage and Spell Damage builds, instead of Nirnhoned completely gimping only Magicka builds. Try to think of Nirnhoned as the 1.5 Impenetrable that only affects Magicka builds - that we will be living with for a few more months - & even then no details as to how far or hard the nerf will be. Abuse it and watch your foes cry and quit the game as you tank their pathetic damage. #TooManyCountersForMagickaBuilds

Jules

Yonkit wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

lots of stuff

I have snipes hit enemies for 3k while blocking or using some other form of mitigation (i can hit a snipe for 30k+ in ideal situations), so I'm still not sure what the qq is about? I'm just super confused. There are good magicka users out there making things work and tearing things up. I can't think of more than maybe... 10 stam users that I've come across that are more than one trick ponies or worry me at all (maybe folks think of me as a one trick pony too, as a stam user it would only exemplify my point) in a fight, then there are tons of magicka users that give me problems.

Is it an L2P issue? Would you even consider that as a possibility? I mean I've changed my playstyle and build maybe 6 times on the stam side alone (not counting variations into caster nb builds) in the past couple months. Some work better than others, but still there's lots of room to grow..

You see, when you edit my OP to say things like "lots of stuff" it makes me feel like you don't care what I have to say. It also makes me feel like you are too simple minded to grasp difficult concepts like *words* and *numbers*. I'll try to include more pictures next time.

Xsorus

Ezareth wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Samuel_Bantien wrote: »

@Xsorus
Please look at the video in this thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168466/2v2-pvp-tournament-final-resut/p1

Feel free to watch the whole video if you have not to see the flaws on Nirnhoned.
Or -
Skip to 3:30.
Watch Sypher as he ambushes into 5 Daedric Mines - each with a base tooltip of atleast 4500 when magicka builds - according to Arcane Karstyll, "My mine tooltip unbuffed hit 4240 for each mine, buffed 4658 damage." And only drops to 32% from 79% (16k health). He is running full Nirnhoned. Watch as he eats mines for only 2.9k crits and 1.5k non-crits. This is a video of Nirnhoned at its finest. He later describes that he is using full Nirnhoned (w/ the exception of engine guardian) with Whitestrake's BUT get this, his suprise attacks crit for 8k - a GREAT example of how well weapon damage improves without very much or even little amounts of weapon damage sets can affect total output. - No intentions at calling anyone out on this issue.
I of course love that my critical hits hit for less than my tool tip and I am positive every other magicka build feels the same. I feel the urge to say that no build deserves to have their damage reduced by 2/3rds without blocking and should've been fixed when this issue was announced during the 1.6 PTS. Should I find more clips and point out the flaws of Nirnhoned for you Xsorus?

You want me to show ya Sypher video where he instant kills 5 people with magicka nightblade?
There is countless videos of sorcs just ripping through people as well. i can show you video of me 3 shotting dodge rolling users left and right as well. Do you know why? Because a vast majority of them aren't running nirmhoned like you are crying about, they are running things like skirmisher. So you whining about a very defensive setup taking low damage vs them hitting someone with very low armor (and then having it pretty much ignored completely) isn't much of a concern to me. Against most players you pretty much need well over 33k spell resist before you even begin to negate there damage which means most players won't be running it since it requires at least 5 to 6 pieces of nirnhoned to hit that level of resist (I break 32k with 5 light for example and 4 nirnhoned using a shield)

oh incase your wondering I have video of me with 33k spell resist taking about 5k per crit from a sorcs mines. This is with bloody "cap" spell resist. I have zero sympathy for most magicka users since I play one and know what's it like. God sorcs would be absolutely stupid right now without nirnhoned

Most Medium armor dodge rollers don't need to run full Nirnhoned. My NB Build uses Skirmisher and only 2 pieces of Nirnhoned (+48% to spell resist). Consider Base full Medium Armor + Phase Champion Passive + Shadow Barrier Passive = Easy to get 40K Spell resist when you're a perma roller.

Sypher killing 5 people with a mana detonation /ultimate combo means at much as me killing 30 people in a row with overload.....nothing. The players who are dying to me and Sypher and the rest of skilled players out there are fodder and we all know it so don't try to make an argument out of it. I guarantee your Magicka DK is going to have a much harder time killing me than your Stamina DK because I'm sitting on 34K Spell Resist with only 3 Nirnhoned in Light armor due to Boundless Storm.

ummm say what..I run 4 nirnhoned on my nightblade...I don't break 40k Spell Resist..In fact i break 36k when I go into stealth and get shadow barrier passive.

Also you died to my Stamina DK because I reflected a Meteor back on your face....If you manage not to have that happen you shouldn't die to my DK if i was Magicka or Stamina.