Zos seems to be begging me to unsubscribe. Ridiculous Customer Service.

olemanwinter

I've been playing since launch. I have 4 VR characters including 1 VR14. Just to provide a little background.

My newest Veteran Rank character is a VR1 Dragonknight Tank. As soon as I arrived in Vet-land I began doing Veteran Pledges. And immediately it became clear something was wrong. None of the bosses were lootable. They did not turn black. Completely unlootable.

So, I thought that perhaps it was a single-instance bug. So, I repeated the daily pledge. And the next days. And the next.

In 4 completed veteran gold-key dungeon runs, only 1 boss (early mini-boss) turned yellow for me. Confident something was wrong, I filled out a support ticket explaining the problem.

I got the following form letter in reply:

"Thank you for contacting The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited Team!

To ensure a higher chance of loot drops and XP gain, it's important to make sure that any NPCs you kill are within five levels of your character level.

It's also important to ensure that other players in your group are also an appropriate level for the content. Having a high-level character in your group affects the content parameters and may create a situation in which the amount of healing/damage/tanking you need to do in order to get credit is too high.

If another group member is higher than 5 levels above you,you won't be able to loot at all.

Although we received a lot of feedback regarding this and we are looking into possible ways to change this in the future.

If you have any other questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us for further assistance.

Thank you for contacting us!

kind regards,"

I had already given them enough information in my original report that it should have ruled out most of that. But I replied back a 2nd time with the following:

"VR1 TANK

3 Runs.

1) Elden Root Scaled to VR5 (within 4 levels)

2) Elden Root Scaled to VR1 (same level)

3) Darkshade Cavers Scaled to VR1 (Same level)

ALMOST ALL bosses in every instance were completely unlootable. I'm not complaining about the type of loot I'm getting, but that I'm completely unable to loot any bosses.

I have been playing since launch and have 4 VR characters. THIS IS DIFFERENT. SOMETHING IS WRONG."


ESO, replied back....with THE SAME FORM LETTER. Exactly. Word for word. Verbatim.


So, I'm expected to pay a monthly fee to play a game that doesn't work and regardless what I say the best CS I can expect is the same form letter sent back again and again? Give me a break.


So, I replied with the following:

"Is this a joke? The same form letter reply twice in a row? Go ahead and send it back a third time please. I'm SO CLOSE to cancelling my subscription to this game".

I wonder if I'll get the same form letter back a 3rd time.

TLDR:

If my customer service experience is not unique, this game is in big trouble because subscribers are going to drop like flies. My character is bugged and all I get from Zos is the same form letter sent over and over.

** NOTE: Hilarious that this was moved to "general help". Zos is providing NO HELP. Just restating the conditions required to get loot. This thread is really about how the best customer service you can manage is to send two identical form letters back to back.

Elsonso

So, just to be clear, are you aware that to ensure a higher chance of loot drops and XP gain, it's important to make sure that any NPCs you kill are within five levels of your character level?

ZOS_MichelleA

Hi there, @olemanwinter. Even if you are within 5 levels of the creatures being killed and/or the instance is scaled to within 5 levels of your character, you need to ensure that all members of your party are also within 5 levels. Even if mobs are scaled to your level, your ability to loot creatures will be affected if any of your party members are not within 5 levels of yours.

Snoopsy

I was half-hoping the mod posted the same template.

olemanwinter

ZOS_MichelleA wrote: »

Hi there, @olemanwinter. Even if you are within 5 levels of the creatures being killed and/or the instance is scaled to within 5 levels of your character, you need to ensure that all members of your party are also within 5 levels. Even if mobs are scaled to your level, your ability to loot creatures will be affected if any of your party members are not within 5 levels of yours.

This is nonsense. Two days ago, I ran a VR1 daily gold pledge as a VR14 to help out together with another VR14 and two VR1 players...scaled to VR ONE and the VR14 tank received the undaunted dungeon helm drop from the boss.

Yet, I as a VR1 tank cannot get loot from a VR1 dungeon because there happens to be a VR7 healer? You've got to be joking.

You Zos folks can keep restating the same thing as many different ways as you like, but it still makes no sense.

If BOTH the dungeon AND the players must be scaled to within 4 levels, then why do I who is within that range get zero loot across multiple dungeons when the others outside of that range do get loot including dungeon helms?

My luck was bad enough with this horribly broken loot system before when I could actually loot things. This is intolerable.

olemanwinter

lordrichter wrote: »

So, just to be clear, are you aware that to ensure a higher chance of loot drops and XP gain, it's important to make sure that any NPCs you kill are within five levels of your character level?

Are you saying that I need to be within 5 levels of the NPCs I kill, or are you saying that the NPCs I kill need to be within five levels of me? lol

bloodenragedb14_ESO

ZOS_MichelleA wrote: »

Hi there, @olemanwinter. Even if you are within 5 levels of the creatures being killed and/or the instance is scaled to within 5 levels of your character, you need to ensure that all members of your party are also within 5 levels. Even if mobs are scaled to your level, your ability to loot creatures will be affected if any of your party members are not within 5 levels of yours.

that is a unacceptable looting mechanic, you should look into fixing that

olemanwinter

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

that is a unacceptable looting mechanic, you should look into fixing that

So according to that Zos post above (which I have EXPERIENCED to be untrue) in the following situation nobody would get any loot?!?!

VR6 Dungeon.

VR1
VR1
VR6 (even at same level)
VR14

How dumb is that?

It's as if this game was created to make grouping as difficult and unrewarding as possible. This game seems to only exist now for the hardcore grinders that grind gear in the first 24 hours before they fix the tricks and the Roleplayers who don't care at all.

olemanwinter

So, in the end....the official word from Zos is that

A VR14 can get loot in a dungeon by grouping with ANY players with the dungeon scaled to ANY level, but a VR1 character can only loot the bosses if the BOTH the dungeon and other players are very close in level range.

In short, either grind grind grind to VR14 (hint hint..this is why you can't ever find a lower VR group to do anything)...or just quit...like me.

ZOS_Gideon

Hey there, @olemanwinter. We're trying to reproduce the problem internally, but we haven't had much luck so far. Would you mind giving it another test, and describing the situation in as much detail as you can? In particular, the vet ranks of yourself and your group members, who the group leader was, which dungeon you were in, what the instance was scaled to, who did and didn't get loot on which bosses, and so on? In addition, can you check whether or not you're getting experience on the bosses that don't drop loot for you?

Being able to reproduce this issue is the first step towards fixing it, and the more data we have, the easier that will be. A video, or even screenshots, would also be a big help.

Preyfar

ZOS_Gideon wrote: »

Hey there, @olemanwinter. We're trying to reproduce the problem internally, but we haven't had much luck so far. Would you mind giving it another test, and describing the situation in as much detail as you can? In particular, the vet ranks of yourself and your group members, who the group leader was, which dungeon you were in, what the instance was scaled to, who did and didn't get loot on which bosses, and so on? In addition, can you check whether or not you're getting experience on the bosses that don't drop loot for you?

Being able to reproduce this issue is the first step towards fixing it, and the more data we have, the easier that will be. A video, or even screenshots, would also be a big help.

The loot scales on bosses based on the highest level member of the party.

1) You have a party of 3 VR1s, 1 VR14 (just an example).
2) Set the dungeon is scaled to VR1
3) VR14 will get loot from bosses, none of the VR1s will.

The person who is over-scaled will continue to get loot (though it will still drop at VR1), but none of the people who are appropriately ranked will. The loot system automatically tabs up to the HIGHEST leveled person in this dungeon (in this instance, the VR14). However, all the mobs will still be VR1 and the trash mobs will drop loot for the VR1s, but none of the bosses will.

That's where you need to investigate: why the loot table is scales off the highest party member (VR14) instead of the actual mob levels (in this case, VR1).

Preyfar

olemanwinter wrote: »

So, in the end....the official word from Zos is that

A VR14 can get loot in a dungeon by grouping with ANY players with the dungeon scaled to ANY level, but a VR1 character can only loot the bosses if the BOTH the dungeon and other players are very close in level range.

In short, either grind grind grind to VR14 (hint hint..this is why you can't ever find a lower VR group to do anything)...or just quit...like me.

Don't give up the ghost just yet, man. A lot of us understand the problem and we can work with ZOS to fix if they'll listen. And clearly you've got their attention. Deep breath! We can help them fix this.

Preyfar

PKMN12 wrote: »

[...]

I've my own frustrations with ZOS (a typo I've reported is still there months later -- should be an easy fix), but I legitimately DO think they care. They're a company, and their job relies on people being happy with their product. So yes, I think they do care. I don't think they're always quite communicative, but they do care.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Islyn

ZOS_Gideon wrote: »

Hey there, @olemanwinter. We're trying to reproduce the problem internally, but we haven't had much luck so far. Would you mind giving it another test, and describing the situation in as much detail as you can? In particular, the vet ranks of yourself and your group members, who the group leader was, which dungeon you were in, what the instance was scaled to, who did and didn't get loot on which bosses, and so on? In addition, can you check whether or not you're getting experience on the bosses that don't drop loot for you?

Being able to reproduce this issue is the first step towards fixing it, and the more data we have, the easier that will be. A video, or even screenshots, would also be a big help.

I think if they're being asked to do work to prove it then a free month sub is in order. To be frank. :-)

Ysne58

I'm glad this is receiving some attention.

Dagoth_Rac

It seems like you need to do at least a certain percentage of damage to an enemy to get loot. It is not much. 8%? 12%? Something like that. Or do a certain amount of healing to the players that are doing the damage. It is to prevent low-level players from being rewarded by just standing around and doing nothing while 3 higher level players do all the work. I run into this a lot where lower level players are not getting XP or drops when running with my VR14. If I am told this is happening, I pull back my DPS and take it slower so that the lower level players have enough time to get in the damage necessary to earn XP and loot.

It is hard as a tank, though. Make sure to keep Puncture/Inner Fire going (don't spam them, of course), Low Slash, block-cast some DoTs, etc. Searing Strikes might be good as it is quick, cheap, and lasts a long time. This problem seems to go away when everybody is VR14, but while you are leveling and running with random/mismatched groups, it happens.

They should really change the mechanic to acknowledge blocking and taunting and sopping up attacks as legitimate contributions. It seems to be based totally around healing and doing damage.

Sasky

Preyfar wrote: »

1) You have a party of 3 VR1s, 1 VR14 (just an example).
2) Set the dungeon is scaled to VR1
3) VR14 will get loot from bosses, none of the VR1s will.

The person who is over-scaled will continue to get loot (though it will still drop at VR1), but none of the people who are appropriately ranked will. The loot system automatically tabs up to the HIGHEST leveled person in this dungeon (in this instance, the VR14). However, all the mobs will still be VR1 and the trash mobs will drop loot for the VR1s, but none of the bosses will.

That's where you need to investigate: why the loot table is scales off the highest party member (VR14) instead of the actual mob levels (in this case, VR1).

First off, I've seen it more from the other angle -- one VR1-7 and three VR14. In that situation, the lower level won't get any drops unless they can put a suitable amount of damage (mobs or boss). So, this is just speculation from that end. Since they won't release details on the mechanics, we can't really know whether it's broken or "working as intended".

I'd suspect the reason you still get loot from trash mobs is that it's more spread around, so you'll hit that threshold on some of the mobs (and get some of the loot). You're probably not getting full loot on the trash mobs. You do get part of the loot, since it's spread out between mobs, though.

For bosses, it isn't spread out, so it comes down to (primarily) damage done on the boss. Perhaps one thing that'd help would be to take a look at FTC or some dps meter after the fight and see how much total damage you did on the boss. Ask the v14 to indicate that as well.

newtinmpls

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

It seems like you need to do at least a certain percentage of damage to an enemy to get loot. It is not much. 8%? 12%? Something like that. Or do a certain amount of healing to the players that are doing the damage.

<snip>

It is hard as a tank, though.

<more snipped>

They should really change the mechanic to acknowledge blocking and taunting and sopping up attacks as legitimate contributions. It seems to be based totally around healing and doing damage.

I agree. Doing a decent job of tanking involves controlling and directing bosses not damaging them. Holding a taunt should get the same "credit" as healing. I often get shorted on loot when playing a tank.

Enodoc

This looks like another issue that, aside from being something that should be quite an easy fix anyway, will be rectified when they remove Veteran Ranks. Hopefully that time is drawing nearer.

olemanwinter wrote: »

So according to that Zos post above (which I have EXPERIENCED to be untrue) in the following situation nobody would get any loot?!?!

VR6 Dungeon.

VR1
VR1
VR6 (even at same level)
VR14

How dumb is that?

That's an odd situation. 6 is within 5 levels of 1, but because of the 14, supposedly nothing works. What would make more sense is if the VR14 got no loot while the 1s and 6 did. But they would have to do more than the 10%(?) damage threshold each to qualify.

Daveheart

I thought they made all these changes to grouped experience when they released the scaled dungeons and undaunted pledges. My understanding was something like this:

• Top healer, DD, and tank get experience and loot for each encounter.
• The next highest DPS gets experience and loot if above (X%) of the damage done to the enemy.
• If more that five levels over the mobs' level, then no XP (loot still possible)
• If underleveled it's still possible to get XP, you just have to heal the most, take the most damage or be one of the top two damage dealers.

When testing, recording DPS numbers per encounter for the whole group may also be a factor to be considered. Correct me if I'm way off base, but it seems like their intention had been to minimize carrying people through all the dungeons.

DaveMoeDee

While I understand the frustration of the OP, it would be kinda cheap if a bunch of VR1s were rewarded for bringing along a VR14 to do all the work against VR1 scaled content.

DaveMoeDee

Enodoc wrote: »

This looks like another issue that, aside from being something that should be quite an easy fix anyway, will be rectified when they remove Veteran Ranks. Hopefully that time is drawing nearer.

olemanwinter wrote: »

So according to that Zos post above (which I have EXPERIENCED to be untrue) in the following situation nobody would get any loot?!?!

VR6 Dungeon.

VR1
VR1
VR6 (even at same level)
VR14

How dumb is that?

That's an odd situation. 6 is within 5 levels of 1, but because of the 14, supposedly nothing works. What would make more sense is if the VR14 got no loot while the 1s and 6 did. But they would have to do more than the 10%(?) damage threshold each to qualify.

What might make the most sense is downscaling the VR14 player, but that would be a major change.

olemanwinter

ZOS_Gideon wrote: »

Hey there, @olemanwinter. We're trying to reproduce the problem internally, but we haven't had much luck so far. Would you mind giving it another test, and describing the situation in as much detail as you can? In particular, the vet ranks of yourself and your group members, who the group leader was, which dungeon you were in, what the instance was scaled to, who did and didn't get loot on which bosses, and so on? In addition, can you check whether or not you're getting experience on the bosses that don't drop loot for you?

Being able to reproduce this issue is the first step towards fixing it, and the more data we have, the easier that will be. A video, or even screenshots, would also be a big help.

Yes, I will test it again, record the gameplay in-full, and I will also report the findings here.

For the record, I did test and provide pretty thorough details already including almost everything you asked for, BUT....I can try to be even more detailed

I'll do my best to provide you as much data as possible from the player-side.

How do I go about providing game-play video footage to you? Is that something I need to upload and provide a link or is there a way you want it delivered directly to you?

Thanks.

olemanwinter

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

While I understand the frustration of the OP, it would be kinda cheap if a bunch of VR1s were rewarded for bringing along a VR14 to do all the work against VR1 scaled content.

Do all the work?

So, you think a VR14 can pretty much solo a VR1 veteran dungeon?

The real reason you end up grouping with people outside your level range is because it takes forever to fill a group within the narrow confines of VR1-VR4, etc.

A VR14 can form a group of players of ANY LEVEL from 1-14 and get loot.
A VR1 can form a group of players from only 4 levels to get loot.

Combined with the fact that many players just grind up to max VR as quickly as possible, it's very challenging to fill a group.

Furthermore, I think you overestimate how big of a difference 1 VR14 makes in the group.

Go run a pledge with 3 VR1s and one VR14 and tell me if you felt carried through.

Finally, it has not always been this way...I remember getting VR6 pieces when I did a dungeon with VR14s way back pre 1.5 when I was leveling. They are still sitting in my inventory.

Or not...I'm really about over it. Tired or arguing about bad game design. They can keep it so nobody can stand to play the game between lvl 50 and VR14. Tired of explaining myself and spelling out what I feel like should be common sense.

Bouvin

ZOS_MichelleA wrote: »

Hi there, @olemanwinter. Even if you are within 5 levels of the creatures being killed and/or the instance is scaled to within 5 levels of your character, you need to ensure that all members of your party are also within 5 levels. Even if mobs are scaled to your level, your ability to loot creatures will be affected if any of your party members are not within 5 levels of yours.

Does ZOS have any idea how hard it is to get 4 people within 5 levels of each other to do a dungeon?

Even worse.. try to find someone to do Craglorn quests with all the quest phasing..

Worst group mechanics in an MMO ever. And I've been playing since UO in late 1998.

Faugaun

OK I am guessing what is occurring is actually quite simple (and complicated) I will try to explain:

ZoS the most effective way to reproduced this is to create a party with a vr1 tank a vr1 healer, A AVR7 dps and a vr14 DPs
Set the dungeon to VR5 ish ( you may have to push it to VR6 or vr1 may work...

Esentaillay what will occur is that because the difference between the lowest and the highest player in the dungeon is greater than 5 levels then the person on the lower end of the scale is required to do a certain percentage of the damage to qualify for exp. No exp equals no loot. The healer oddly will likely get full exp in this scenario and this full loot.

Then if you really wanna throw a wrench into it set the vr1 DPs, VR1 healer Vr5 DPs VR14 tank then equip the tank with a level 10 weapon (just to Nerf his damage). Set the dungeon to vr1 ....in this setup all players should get exp and loot.

Wait I got more for you ZoS....

Now take your vr14 and goto coldharbor and whack on some level 46 mobs solo...get about 80 exp per kill...then move to level 49 mobs in cold harbor and get about 300 exp per kill this is on that same vr14

What is occurring is that vr characters are able to attack mobs as low as 46 and get whatever the exp is in certain conditions yet in other conditions they are considered to be greater than five levels apart (vr1 player grouped with vr7 player...) And when the greater than 5 levels is applied the low level gets screwed on both loot and exp despite their effort. It really has a lot of inconsistency in how the rules are applied, then the benchmark damage messes it up more.....one last test for ya ZoS

Take a vr1, and 3 vr5s scale the dungeon to vr5 go frght a boss....have the vr1 hit the boss 1 time and go sit in a corner while the other three kill the boss....the vr1 who didn't do squat will get full kill exp. But is you made it VR1 and 3 VR7s and had one of the sevens sit out and the VR1 tank (a crucial group role) then if that vr1 is busy self healing and blocking and taunting to stay alive and doesn't pull enough DPs he will get 0 exp but the vr7 who sat in the corner will get full exp....go make sense out of that!

We the players deal with this nonsense daily to ensure the system actually credits us for our work...I hope maybe this will help to fix it somehow....


@ZOS_MichelleA ....hope that helps

Faugaun

olemanwinter wrote: »

Go run a pledge with 3 VR1s and one VR14 and tell me if you felt carried through.

If I was with this guy doing a normal vr1 I would feel very carried..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mWrfBub8pVc

It kinda blurry but the bosses level is veteran mode 13

Faugaun

Oh and its not just at vr that this occurs, it happens 1-49 also...its just less noticible because you don't run into as big of level differences frequently like in pledges.

olemanwinter

Faugaun wrote: »

If I was with this guy doing a normal vr1 I would feel very carried..

It kinda blurry but the bosses level is veteran mode 13

With respect...that's a Craglorn delve. Not a 4 person instanced Vet pledge.

I could go in there when I was VR2 with Deltia's Velvet Hammer build (pre 1.5) and do whatever I wanted except bosses (never really tried much...was just farming and grinding).

But those dungeons don't have the same group mechanics. Honestly, I feel like you posting that video really highlights how unfamiliar you may be with the subject I'm describing. I feel like you just made my point for me.

That guy, and his build, whatever it is....would have LITERALLY ZERO chance of soloing the very first little boss in Wayrest Veteran Dungeon. Cannot be done.

Again, I'll suggest that you GO RUN A VET DUNGEON with three VR1's and one single VR14 and see if you feel carried through. Looking up a youtube video on a craglorn delve is not a substitute for what I'm talking about.

olemanwinter

Faugaun wrote: »

ZoS the most effective way to reproduced this is to create a party with a vr1 tank a vr1 healer, A AVR7 dps and a vr14 DPs
Set the dungeon to VR5 ish ( you may have to push it to VR6 or vr1 may work...

That's actually a very complicated way to set it up.

If you want to test this. Do the following

VR14 HEALER (Told specifically to do no dps)

VR1 Tank

VR1 DPS

VR1 DPS

Instance the dungeon to VR1. Have to ZERO DEATHS and ZERO DISCONNECTS.

Complete the dungeon and you will discover that the VR1 players are unable to loot any bosses whatsoever and the VR14 is able to loot every one.


I know this, because I've done this.

Maotti

ZOS_MichelleA wrote: »

Hi there, @olemanwinter. Even if you are within 5 levels of the creatures being killed and/or the instance is scaled to within 5 levels of your character, you need to ensure that all members of your party are also within 5 levels. Even if mobs are scaled to your level, your ability to loot creatures will be affected if any of your party members are not within 5 levels of yours.

From level 1-50 this is perfectly fine.

But it seriously has no place in VR. You guys should get rid of this.