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[Stamina] PvP Class Balance Analysis as of 2.0.7

  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Soulac wrote: »
    Sublime wrote: »
    Soulac wrote: »
    Also I dimmunity and then there are a skills like Talons or Encase or even Petrify.
    A streak using sorc combined with Encase is able to cc many people quite often, same as a DK with Talons or his leap, while NBs 'only' got a melee stun and no AoE root.

    I'd put sorc on 3-4, DK on 5, NB on 4.
    Sorc: AoE Root, stun combined in movement skill, single target stun
    DK: Single target stun + root in one skill, AoE root, AoE Stun as ultimate
    NB: expensive Single target stun (cloak + surprise attack), AoE melee stun, AoE and Single target slow (Single target blockable and reflectable root + dot)

    The CC of Encase/Streak, is certainly very powerful, but I don't really see a Stamina build using this as reliable CC, simply because of its (especially Encase) high cost. I see that the NB lacks the DK's non-ult AOE CC, but the high cost of Talons makes me doubt that a Dragonknight, which already tends to struggle with Magicka, can use it extensively.

    Nightblades don't have an Stamina CC either, so high cost is not an argument in my opinion.
    Fear is high cost Magicka, same with the cloak + surprise attack combination. Also the combination takes much more time than a simple fear, petrifiy or a shard.
    Cripple is Magicka based as well and not worth a slot as Stamina Build since it's reflect and block able, also the main reason to use it is a the dot which scales with Magicka and Spelldmg.

    Again:
    I'd put sorc on 3-4, DK on 5, NB on 4.

    Sorc and DK CC are expensive, so are NB CCs, but as I see DK got more options to CC more players at the same time which is better overall.

    I see, I'm still pretty new to Stamina so I have to learn quite a bit. xD I also just remembered that Negate (WTB old Negate :'() and Storm Atronach also provide some CC/Zoning. Apart from that the SR has some Magicka regen perks so it's not as expensive as it looks like.

    Sorcerer [CC/Zoning]: 2 -> 4
    Edited by Sublime on May 6, 2015 1:28PM
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    ✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    Soulac wrote: »
    Sublime wrote: »
    Soulac wrote: »
    Also I dimmunity and then there are a skills like Talons or Encase or even Petrify.
    A streak using sorc combined with Encase is able to cc many people quite often, same as a DK with Talons or his leap, while NBs 'only' got a melee stun and no AoE root.

    I'd put sorc on 3-4, DK on 5, NB on 4.
    Sorc: AoE Root, stun combined in movement skill, single target stun
    DK: Single target stun + root in one skill, AoE root, AoE Stun as ultimate
    NB: expensive Single target stun (cloak + surprise attack), AoE melee stun, AoE and Single target slow (Single target blockable and reflectable root + dot)

    The CC of Encase/Streak, is certainly very powerful, but I don't really see a Stamina build using this as reliable CC, simply because of its (especially Encase) high cost. I see that the NB lacks the DK's non-ult AOE CC, but the high cost of Talons makes me doubt that a Dragonknight, which already tends to struggle with Magicka, can use it extensively.

    Nightblades don't have an Stamina CC either, so high cost is not an argument in my opinion.
    Fear is high cost Magicka, same with the cloak + surprise attack combination. Also the combination takes much more time than a simple fear, petrifiy or a shard.
    Cripple is Magicka based as well and not worth a slot as Stamina Build since it's reflect and block able, also the main reason to use it is a the dot which scales with Magicka and Spelldmg.

    Again:
    I'd put sorc on 3-4, DK on 5, NB on 4.

    Sorc and DK CC are expensive, so are NB CCs, but as I see DK got more options to CC more players at the same time which is better overall.

    I see, I'm still pretty new to Stamina so I have to learn quite a bit. xD I also just remembered that Negate (WTB old Negate :'() and Storm Atronach also provide some CC/Zoning. Apart from that the SR has some Magicka regen perks so it's not as expensive as it looks like.

    Sorcerer [CC/Zoning]: 2 -> 4

    Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong, but looking from the Stam Sorc perspective, I would trade all CC/Zoning class skills I have for Fear, so not sure exactly how we both have 4's.
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  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong, but looking from the Stam Sorc perspective, I would trade all CC/Zoning class skills I have for Fear, so not sure exactly how we both have 4's.

    While fear is really useful to break block or CC it doesn't provide any zoning, and Fear only affects 3 targets while all of the SR's skills hit up to 6. Apart from that, the fact that fear counters block makes it pretty unique. It's basically because the NB only has Fear, which doesn't provide all forms of CC/Zoning you might want, while the Sorcerer has a diverse pool of CC, none of them might be as powerful as Mass Hysteria but they have their niches.
    Edited by Sublime on May 6, 2015 2:33PM
  • Bashev
    Bashev
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    Sublime wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong, but looking from the Stam Sorc perspective, I would trade all CC/Zoning class skills I have for Fear, so not sure exactly how we both have 4's.

    While fear is really useful to break block or CC it doesn't provide any zoning, and Fear only affects 2 targets while all of the SR's skills hit up to 6. Apart from that, the fact that fear counters block makes it pretty unique. It's basically because the NB only has Fear, which doesn't provide all forms of CC/Zoning you might want, while the Sorcerer has a diverse pool of CC, none of them might be as powerful as Mass Hysteria but they have their niches.
    Mass Hysteria affects 3 targets, manifestation of terror is capped at 6 (not 100% sure).
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  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Bashev wrote: »
    Sublime wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong, but looking from the Stam Sorc perspective, I would trade all CC/Zoning class skills I have for Fear, so not sure exactly how we both have 4's.

    While fear is really useful to break block or CC it doesn't provide any zoning, and Fear only affects 2 targets while all of the SR's skills hit up to 6. Apart from that, the fact that fear counters block makes it pretty unique. It's basically because the NB only has Fear, which doesn't provide all forms of CC/Zoning you might want, while the Sorcerer has a diverse pool of CC, none of them might be as powerful as Mass Hysteria but they have their niches.
    Mass Hysteria affects 3 targets, manifestation of terror is capped at 6 (not 100% sure).

    Thanks, edited my post accordingly.
  • cozmon3c_ESO
    cozmon3c_ESO
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    Not sure what stam sorc is cc'ing you, none of there skills are efficiently usefull in a timely manner and need magicka to escape.
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  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    Sublime wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong, but looking from the Stam Sorc perspective, I would trade all CC/Zoning class skills I have for Fear, so not sure exactly how we both have 4's.

    While fear is really useful to break block or CC it doesn't provide any zoning, and Fear only affects 3 targets while all of the SR's skills hit up to 6. Apart from that, the fact that fear counters block makes it pretty unique. It's basically because the NB only has Fear, which doesn't provide all forms of CC/Zoning you might want, while the Sorcerer has a diverse pool of CC, none of them might be as powerful as Mass Hysteria but they have their niches.

    NB has Agony as well, which is the same cast time as Defensive Rune / Rune Prison.

    What they lack that Sorcs have is an AoE root.
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Not sure what stam sorc is cc'ing you, none of there skills are efficiently usefull in a timely manner and need magicka to escape.

    TBH, I've only seen 2-3 stam sorcs in since 1.6, the thing is that there is great CC available, but the Stam SR's Ressource Management that he even struggles with Magicka buffs. What the CC/Zoning section is trying to point out, is that in theory there are great options to control enemies (A NB/DK could use those skills really well since they have the ressources), but because of the low regeneration stats he's bound to less expensive skills.
    Varicite wrote: »
    Sublime wrote: »
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong, but looking from the Stam Sorc perspective, I would trade all CC/Zoning class skills I have for Fear, so not sure exactly how we both have 4's.

    While fear is really useful to break block or CC it doesn't provide any zoning, and Fear only affects 3 targets while all of the SR's skills hit up to 6. Apart from that, the fact that fear counters block makes it pretty unique. It's basically because the NB only has Fear, which doesn't provide all forms of CC/Zoning you might want, while the Sorcerer has a diverse pool of CC, none of them might be as powerful as Mass Hysteria but they have their niches.

    NB has Agony as well, which is the same cast time as Defensive Rune / Rune Prison.

    What they lack that Sorcs have is an AoE root.

    The big difference with Agony is that you can't cast i in advance, Cloak+Agony should work though
  • eliisra
    eliisra
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    Templar Crowd Control/Zoning should be -6 really.

    That's one minus for every player you give free cc immunity, when using your main dps skill against a group of enemies. That type of crowd controlling, buffing the enemy, is clearly the opposite of plus.

    Actually, I give +2 for the knockdown Javelin. So -4 for stamina templar Crowd Control.
  • david.haypreub18_ESO
    david.haypreub18_ESO
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    eliisra wrote: »
    Templar Crowd Control/Zoning should be -6 really.

    That's one minus for every player you give free cc immunity, when using your main dps skill against a group of enemies. That type of crowd controlling, buffing the enemy, is clearly the opposite of plus.

    Actually, I give +2 for the knockdown Javelin. So -4 for stamina templar Crowd Control.

    Yes, it might be necessary to break CC and Zoning into two categories.

    The Templar has mediocre to good Zone damage due to Shards and Nova. Maybe a 3 or 4?

    The Templar has terrible CC. You couldn't honestly give them anything more than a 1 in that category: they are the worst in the game by a significant margin, with absolutely no root and no AoE CC at all.

    Templars are 'just slower... by design'
    Yes, Gina actually said that (at least regarding Rushed Ceremony) right here:
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p24
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  • TBois
    TBois
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    Blazing spears is one of the best CC's I'm the game.
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  • Xael
    Xael
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    so i have started a Stam sorc yesterday and i really feel the weaknesses of the class as stam, i am using some cheap sets atm though
    raveger and way of the air.

    i cant seem to maintain a good stam regen and i dont know what to do to get it higher, its only at 11k.
    though because i am a breton i can use bolt 3 times with dodge roll (which is pretty effective for escape as a stam sorc) or boundless storm 3 times (which is good mobility that doesnt use a lot of magicka in the long term)

    i have like 1300 weapon power, i cant seem to get it to go up higher then that, but i need stam regen too. i just feel like there is no way to push either stat as a stam sorc for your benefit to not just feel like a punching bag in cyrodiil.

    any advice to make my sorc not hit like a wet noodle and have good sustain would be awesome.

    Hit me up next time I log on. I will tell you about my stam builds. Since the removal of soft caps, the added stam morphs to classes, the increase in raw stats, Sorcs are the worst class to go Stam on. That said, it's very doable, hardly optimal.
    I got killed in pvp, nerf everything...
  • Tankqull
    Tankqull
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    Blazing spears is one of the best CC's I'm the game.

    only vs blind enemys
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    Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"


  • Mumyo
    Mumyo
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    Blazing spears is one of the best CC's I'm the game.

    hahaha, give me a comparison here pls.
  • Tomato
    Tomato
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    Molten weapons 9 second duration is not worth it and dots are a joke in PvP = No real class abilities for burst damage for a DK
    You can't compare non class abilities to rate them...... Retreating maneuver really?
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    This Thread is about the patch 2.0.7, so it's far from being up-to date!
    Mumyo wrote: »
    Blazing spears is one of the best CC's I'm the game.

    hahaha, give me a comparison here pls.

    What do you mean?
    Swiift wrote: »
    Molten weapons 9 second duration is not worth it and dots are a joke in PvP = No real class abilities for burst damage for a DK
    You can't compare non class abilities to rate them...... Retreating maneuver really?

    Could you try to put your statements into context please?
  • Tomato
    Tomato
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    Rating classes on non class abilities does not provide accurate results or a real picture of the issues.
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Swiift wrote: »
    Rating classes on non class abilities does not provide accurate results or a real picture of the issues.

    It does because different classes can use different skills differently. If otherwise, why woudl Harness Magicka be so much more powerful on a Sorcerer than on any other class? Or Proximity Detonation interects completely different with a Magicka NB using cloak, than with a Sorcerer using Curse or a DK using Take Flight. Yes it always results in burst, but the resulting gameplay is vastly different.
  • Tomato
    Tomato
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    Obviously all weapon skills are available to each class, so I will actually only compare the skills provided by the class skill trees, since they are the actual difference.


    Dragonknight, 3: Similar to the Templar the Dragonknight gets a huge boost in mobility thanks to the global avilability of Hasty Retreat and Retreating Maneuver.


    You don't see the issue in your statement and results?
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Swiift wrote: »
    Obviously all weapon skills are available to each class, so I will actually only compare the skills provided by the class skill trees, since they are the actual difference.


    Dragonknight, 3: Similar to the Templar the Dragonknight gets a huge boost in mobility thanks to the global avilability of Hasty Retreat and Retreating Maneuver.


    You don't see the issue in your statement and results?

    No I don't. How does a Templar's mobility differentiat from the one of a DK? (Apart from the fact that a Templar can use Channeled Focus to sustain through the Magicka Drain of the Elusive Mist spam)
    Edited by Sublime on September 27, 2015 3:17PM
  • Tomato
    Tomato
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    I'm talking about the statement that you would only compare class abilities not global ones like retreating maneuver or others.
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Swiift wrote: »
    I'm talking about the statement that you would only compare class abilities not global ones like retreating maneuver or others.

    I already compared them, so I didn't want to do it all over again:

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168847/pvp-class-balance-analysis-as-of-2-0-7/p1
  • Tomato
    Tomato
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    On a side rant..... It would be nice to see DK dots re-worked in PvP like the following to make them useful:
    • Prevent them from being able to be purged
    • Base the dot damage off the players spell resistance
    • Give players the ability to resist the dots based on spell resistance
    • or just make dots do more damage if you are going to allow them to be purged
  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
    Swiift wrote: »
    On a side rant..... It would be nice to see DK dots re-worked in PvP like the following to make them useful:
    • Prevent them from being able to be purged
    • Base the dot damage off the players spell resistance
    • Give players the ability to resist the dots based on spell resistance
    • or just make dots do more damage if you are going to allow them to be purged

    DoTs in general are useless in PvP, mainly due to:

    DoTs dont work on Shields/blocking targets
    Most DoTs are easy to remove with skills like purge/cloak

    Thats why nobody uses them and everyone runs high burst builds.

    I mean, why use a DoT that does 10kdmg over 6seconds AND is easy purgable. Better go for the 12k insta dmg skill.
    Edited by Alcast on September 27, 2015 5:46PM
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  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Sublime I really like the way you analyzed the classes and illustrated their differences through a scoring system.

    However as a stam sorc I have to tweak a few points.

    - Bolt+Morphs isn't worth keeping on your bar in the new patch, unless you are running a bar dedicated to escape.
    - Now that gap closers are slower, the stam morph boundless storm works very well as an alternative with 4 seconds of high damage, aoe stealth counter, and Defensibe bonuses
    - Dark deal is a healing spell... it sucks for healing but it is still a healing spell.
    - Stam sorcs can absolutely WRECK HOUSE in a group. They suffer severe deficit in 1v1/X
    O.o
  • Mumyo
    Mumyo
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    Alcast wrote: »
    Swiift wrote: »
    On a side rant..... It would be nice to see DK dots re-worked in PvP like the following to make them useful:
    • Prevent them from being able to be purged
    • Base the dot damage off the players spell resistance
    • Give players the ability to resist the dots based on spell resistance
    • or just make dots do more damage if you are going to allow them to be purged

    DoTs in general are useless in PvP, mainly due to:

    DoTs dont work on Shields/blocking targets
    Most DoTs are easy to remove with skills like purge/cloak

    Thats why nobody uses them and everyone runs high burst builds.

    I mean, why use a DoT that does 10kdmg over 6seconds AND is easy purgable. Better go for the 12k insta dmg skill.

    Pressure and time, thats what dots grant you (also has no costs and intial dmg).
    they can be purged but as dk i would give a f... and would simply put em on you again ;) I saw some builds working just great, just like that.

    to the templar burst:
    stamtemplar is not bursty, it has good dps he can keep on an enemy if snared but spaming jabs has nothing to do with burst at all, there is no number popping up quick or unexpected fast and he has no ult that delivers such a thing.
    NB or sorc(magicka) , thats burst...it makes booom out of nowhere and u go down in 1 sek, just as dragon leap(stam dk).

    Backlash would offer burst but its not really working in pvp tbh.
    Edited by Mumyo on September 27, 2015 9:30PM
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Cathexis wrote: »
    @Sublime I really like the way you analyzed the classes and illustrated their differences through a scoring system.

    However as a stam sorc I have to tweak a few points.

    - Bolt+Morphs isn't worth keeping on your bar in the new patch, unless you are running a bar dedicated to escape.
    - Now that gap closers are slower, the stam morph boundless storm works very well as an alternative with 4 seconds of high damage, aoe stealth counter, and Defensibe bonuses
    - Dark deal is a healing spell... it sucks for healing but it is still a healing spell.
    - Stam sorcs can absolutely WRECK HOUSE in a group. They suffer severe deficit in 1v1/X

    Thanks! I currently don't plan to update the threads because it would take a lot of time, and I didn't get a chance to play ESO on 1.7 yet.
    Mumyo wrote: »
    to the templar burst:
    stamtemplar is not bursty, it has good dps he can keep on an enemy if snared but spaming jabs has nothing to do with burst at all, there is no number popping up quick or unexpected fast and he has no ult that delivers such a thing.
    NB or sorc(magicka) , thats burst...it makes booom out of nowhere and u go down in 1 sek, just as dragon leap(stam dk).

    Backlash would offer burst but its not really working in pvp tbh.

    I agree that Jabs alone weren't that bursty, but if you add Burning Light, it could hit rather hard.
  • Mumyo
    Mumyo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    Cathexis wrote: »
    @Sublime I really like the way you analyzed the classes and illustrated their differences through a scoring system.

    However as a stam sorc I have to tweak a few points.

    - Bolt+Morphs isn't worth keeping on your bar in the new patch, unless you are running a bar dedicated to escape.
    - Now that gap closers are slower, the stam morph boundless storm works very well as an alternative with 4 seconds of high damage, aoe stealth counter, and Defensibe bonuses
    - Dark deal is a healing spell... it sucks for healing but it is still a healing spell.
    - Stam sorcs can absolutely WRECK HOUSE in a group. They suffer severe deficit in 1v1/X

    Thanks! I currently don't plan to update the threads because it would take a lot of time, and I didn't get a chance to play ESO on 1.7 yet.
    Mumyo wrote: »
    to the templar burst:
    stamtemplar is not bursty, it has good dps he can keep on an enemy if snared but spaming jabs has nothing to do with burst at all, there is no number popping up quick or unexpected fast and he has no ult that delivers such a thing.
    NB or sorc(magicka) , thats burst...it makes booom out of nowhere and u go down in 1 sek, just as dragon leap(stam dk).

    Backlash would offer burst but its not really working in pvp tbh.

    I agree that Jabs alone weren't that bursty, but if you add Burning Light, it could hit rather hard.

    Thats far behind dk and nb burst and not worthy of a four.
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Mumyo wrote: »
    Thats far behind dk and nb burst and not worthy of a four.

    I don't know how it is now, and my memory could fail me, but I don't remember seeing any bursty DK's in 1.6.
  • PhatGrimReaper
    PhatGrimReaper
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    30k+ Fire staff Heavy attacks anyone?
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