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[Stamina] PvP Class Balance Analysis as of 2.0.7

Sublime
Sublime
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I don't think you want to read a whole second thread about class balance with Stamina/Magicka difference included, especially since many aspects would end up being really similar. The big part of all stamina builds are the same, because the large supply of Stamina skills comes from trees that are available to everybody, therefore I decided to, instead of comparing the whole classes, simply analyze their support for the Stamina style.

In the end I'm extremely undecided about the structure of this article, so if you think another structure would have been more fitting, please tell me below.

Apart from that, if you rethink the structure of the first article, it can be taken as the Magicka "side". This thread will, based on the previous one, show how each category is supported by the Stamina skills of each class.

Obviously all weapon skills are available to each class, so I will actually only compare the skills provided by the class skill trees, since they are the actual difference.

Analysis

To start it off I'll provide a list with all class skills, which have a Morph that benefits
Stamina users:

Stamina Morphs:
Nightblade:
  • Ambush (Empower)
  • Surprise Attack (Major Fracture)
  • Killer's Blade
  • Power Extraction (Major Brutality)

Sorcerer:
  • Bound Armaments (Minor Resolve, 5% Max Stamina)
  • Dark Deal
  • (Critical Surge, Costs Magicka but only gives Weapon Power)

Templar
  • Biting Jabs (Major Savagery)
  • Binding Javelin
  • Power of the Light (Minor Fracture)

Dragonknight
  • Unstable Flame
  • Burning Breath (Major Fracture)
  • Flames of Oblivion (Major Savagery)

While those skills only affect Debuffs, Burst and Ressource Management directly the use of magicka-heavy skills becomes much more expensive, resulting in a shift of the whole picture.

In order to make it easier to read I provided a small comment for each category, that describes how Stamina generally affects a given department.

Defense: 4 | 2 | 4 | 5
While tanky builds have to divide their stats up between Magicka and Stamina they still have to go for either Spell or Weapon Power as their damage source. The differences are rather marginal, because Bound Armaments is the only Stamina based defensive class ability in the game, so it will mainly be about which class has Magicka skills that are cheap enough to use them with a Stamina build.

Nightblade, 4: While the NB still benefits from its extraordinary Ressource Management, skills like Dark Cloak and Blur are now much more expensive to use. Apart from that the, fact that dodge roll causes all projectile to miss, converts the Stamina Regeneration into damage mitigation through Evasion.

Sorcerer, 2: With Bound Armaments the SR gets a little boost to his Stamina pool and Armor, but since there is still no Stamina regeneration there is no real difference, apart from the fact that Hardened Ward is now much weaker.

Templar, 4: No change.

Dragonknight, 5: No change.

Mobility: 5 | 4 | 3 | 3
Unlike Magicka builds, the big mobility comes from Roll Dodge + Hasty Retreat, evening out the ground quite a bit. On top of that the NB and SR disengages have a much lower value since they either have to be used with great care or not at all.

Nightblade, 5: Since all disengage skills of the Nightblade are Magicka based, it will no longer be possible to use them as previously. Luckily, the built-in Stamina regeneration synergizes really nicely with Hasty Retreat giving the NB an edge over the other classes.

Sorcerer, 4: With the extremely high cost of Bolt Escape, it can no longer be used as frequently, but with good timing and care it can still be very beneficial.

Templar, 3: Magicka TP's rely on Mist Form to get out, but as Stamina build they can exploit the evasiveness of Roll Dodge, putting them on much more even ground than previously.

Dragonknight, 3: Similar to the Templar the Dragonknight gets a huge boost in mobility thanks to the global avilability of Hasty Retreat and Retreating Maneuver.

Burst: 5 | 2 | 4 | 3
Since most of the morphs have their big effect in that category, it will probably determine the final outcome regarding overall balance.

Nightblade, 5: While already being pretty competitive with Magicka builds, NB's get a huge boost in the Stamina department thanks to their built-in Empower and sustain damage of Surprise Attack. On top of that Death Stroke increases the NB's damage by 30% for 6s.

Sorcerer, 2: Since the SR's core kit does not work on a Stamina setup, they have to go back on weapon trees. Even though a bonus 5% Max Stamina or a class-based Major Brutality that doesn't require a target, can be very useful the lack of any damage focused ability can be pretty punishing.

Templar, 4: With Biting Jabs, Binding Javeling and Power of the Light the Templar has some very Burst-heavy skill in his kit, especially since two of them can proc Burning Light.

Dragonknight, 3: The DK might still not have any burst through active skills (because of his DOT-based kit), it is however still very viable to exploit Molten Weapons on any Physical Weapon.

Debuffs: 5 | 1 | 3 | 4
Quite some of the Stamina morphs have a built-in debuff, resulting in a couple of changes in the Debuf department. Apart from that, some of the Magicka debuffs are cheap enough to use them with a Stamina build, meaning it will not depend on Stamina skills alone.

Nightblade, 5: With Surprise Attack as source of Major Fracture the NB has a very useful debuff and strong damage combined in one skill. And the Major Defile and 30% additional damage taken of Death Stroke, which is available really often doesn't hurt either.

Sorcerer, 1: No debuff.

Templar, 3: Yes Power of the Light reduces the enemies Armor, but it is only the minor version of the debuff, so the TP is still in the same spot in that category.

Dragonknight, 4: While Burning Breath does not deal as much damage as the Nightblade's Surprise attack, it still applies Major Fracture keeping. Apart from that the Major Defile of the Standart of Might and the 100% Armor Penetration of Corrosive Armor can be incredibly useful as well, But since it's much harder to gain a lot of Armor than Spell Resistance, Corrosive Armor can quite easily be an overkill.

Crowd Control/Zoning: 4 | 4 | 3 | 4
While there are is only very limited CC/Zoning provided the the Stamina class skills, some of the Magicka based skills are either cheap or powerful enough to make the viable on a Stamina build.

Nightblade, 4: With Surprise Attack + Cloak the NB has some partial physical CC that gets supplemented by the root of Ambush. Apart from that the power of Mass Hysteria makes it viable despite its high cost, even for Stamina builds.

Sorcerer, 2: There might not be any CC in the Stamina morphs, but thanks to its low cost Defensive Rune can be quite useful if you manage to channel it. Apart from that Streak, Encase, Negate or Storm Atronach provide a lot of CC/Zoneing if you manage to sustain the Magicka, which is not as difficult as it might seem thanks to the passive Magicka Regeneration.

Templar, 3: Yes, Biting Jabs and Binding Javeling do have build in CC but the short Duration of the Jabs' stun makes it rather a bane than a boon. However, Nova can offer a lot of zoning thanks to its big AOE and huge damage potential.

Dragonknight, 4: The DK might not have any CC on his Stamina morphs, Fossilize however allows him to set up enemies for any form of channeled attack (Uppercut/Molten Weapons). On top of that Dragonknight Standard, Dragon Leap and Cinder Storm allow for some decent Zoning or Crowd Control.

Healing/Support:
2 | 1 | 2 | 5
All Stamina based healing spells are available to everybody, so this category will be limited to healing benefiting spells.

Nightblade, 2: Soul Siphon provides quite a boost to healing, unfortunately the duration is rediculously short making it rather unreliable.

Sorcerer, 1: No Healing/Support.

Templar, 2: While the Templar has no skills that supplements Stamina healing skills, Repentance and Purifying Ritual can still be very useful Support skills.

Dragonknight, 5: The 30% bonus to healing done of Igneous Shield is a huge boost to the all Healing, Stamina-based included.

Ressource Management: 5 | 2 | 3 | 5
Since Ressource Management is about all three ressources, there won't be too much changes here, except for the fact that different skills will get new priorities due to the focus on Stamina.

Nightblade, 5: The very high Stamina Recovery was already very useful for Magicka builds, but on a Stamina kit it really opens up their possibility. There is not so much Magicka recovery available on a Stamina build.

Sorcerer, 2: The built-in Magicka regeneration enables the SR to use his expensive buffs, but the lack of Stamina regeneration makes it really difficult to sustain. Yes Power Stone is still really powerful, but it just doesn't make up for it.

Templar, 3: While the Ressource Management of the TP is very distributed, the low cost of Channeled Focus and its sustained Magicka regeneration, comes in really handy to sustain the buffs. Unfortunately the Stamina regeneration is rather at the low end, making the Templar extremely dependant on Repentance.

Dragonknight, 5: Unfortunately Helping Hands requires extensive use of Magicka based abilities, but since Stamina DK's tend to have more Max Stamina than others, they also get increased returns. On the other side most of the other tools are left intact, providing him with some pretty decent sustain.

Conclusion

Category:__________________Nightblade____Sorcerer____Templar____Dragonknight
Defense:______________________4_______________2____________4_____________5
Mobility:______________________5_______________4____________3_____________3
Burst:_________________________5_______________2____________4_____________3
Debuffs:______________________5_______________1____________3_____________4
Crowd Control/Zoning:________4_______________2____________3_____________4
Healing/Support:______________2_______________1____________2_____________5
Ressource Management:______5_______________2____________3_____________5

Nightblade:
With it's two boni to Staima Regeneration, the NB probably benefits the most from going Stamina. It does not only increase their offensive potential, since the can allow themselves to spam skills, but also enables the exessive use of Roll Dodge, making it rediculously hard to hit them if you don't have certain skills. Their big downpoint in contrast to DK's is, that they lack a lot of healing, meaning as soon as they get low a Nightblade has to go into the defense, making this playstyle rather punishing. Apart from that the NB gets a lot of useful buffs and debuffs through their Stamina morphs giving them huge burst potential.

Sorcerer:
Since the Magicka Sorcerer completely relies on Bolt Escap and Hardened Ward, the Stamina version has to pick up Hasty Retreat + Retreating Maneuver as a new escape, Bolt Escape can however still be used situationally. While the SR has the unique ability to have a class skill for Major Brutality that doesn't require a target, most still prefer Momentum because of the unreliability of the Critical Surge heal. Apart from that, two Stamina morphs are utility skills, which don't even fit the Stamina playstyle (as stamina user you don't have the time to channel a skill).

Templar:
The added mobility helps the Templar a lot since he no longer has to be vampire to get an escape. On top of that Biting Jabs and Binding Javeling are generally the better morph of their respective skill, unfortunately Biting Jabs more or less provides enemies with free CC-immunity, which can't be fully compensated by Nova. While the cheap morph of Channeled Focus and its Magicka Regeneration comes in very handy, there is close to no sustained Stamina recovery available, making the TP very Dependant on Repentance. On the other side, getting a good repentance puts him back up to 100%, meaning the gained stamina is much more valuable for a Stamina build than it is for a Magicka build. Unfortunately the Templar looses a lot of his sustain because the Restoring Light skill tree is no longer working.

Dragonknight:
With the Mobility problem solved and a huge buff to Healing, the DK gets quite some benefits. Yes, most CC skills are Magicka based, most of them are either cheap or strong enough to still earn a stop on your bar. While the Stamina morphs don't really offer any Burst there are some nice debuffs available in the form of Major Defile or Major Fracture. Apart from that Igneous Shield gives a huge buff to the DK's healing, making it the only class that can really heal on a Stamina based Setup.

Conclusion
I'd probably put the Nightblade on top, simply because of their vast ressources and extremely strong native Stamina skills. The new Mobility environment really gives TP's and DK's a lot of new options, they might not have the ressources of a Nightblade, but their natural tankiness should help them out quite a bit. I'm going to give the Dragonknight a small edge over the Templar, since Igneous Shield vastly increases their sustain. And even though the TP tends to have more Burst and CC/Zoning, the DK's Debuffs and Ressource Management keep him just on top. Unlike the other classes the Sorcerer actually gets a deficit in the Mobility category, while this itself isn't build-breaking, the lack of offensive power, sustain and protection makes it incredibly hard to pull off.

Thoughts?

@Lava_Croft @cozmon3c_ESO Here you go. :)
Edited by Sublime on May 6, 2015 1:27PM
  • Seth_Black
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    I've been playing Stamina NB for a long time now and with all cost reduction I was never out of stamina really.
    Since I'm not spamming one ability all the time like many players in PvP it was really easy to run with full stamina almost all the time.
    Now i'm fully magicka and I'm always above 50% resources anyway.
    I think there's no point comparing anything really classes/races/builds etc.
    Good player can make best out of his character anyway and it will seem so OP in his hands.
    For example my stamina build was using a lot of potions with 20sec cd on potions only, so my healing abilities were really high combined with using quick cloak/double take to dodge a lot and high on siphoning.
    There will be always some sweet combination of skills you can use to your own advantage.
    On full stamina I could roll all the time with full magicka I can cloak all the time.
    Just different skills and types of damage really but effects are the same.
    My point is simple ...in the end it's all up to player himself, his own skills and creativity. There's no master class or OP class.
    Out of the night that covers me, Black as the pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.
    It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul
  • Jitterbug
    Jitterbug
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    Great write up @Sublime - good job
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Seth_Black wrote: »
    I've been playing Stamina NB for a long time now and with all cost reduction I was never out of stamina really.
    Since I'm not spamming one ability all the time like many players in PvP it was really easy to run with full stamina almost all the time.
    Now i'm fully magicka and I'm always above 50% resources anyway.
    I think there's no point comparing anything really classes/races/builds etc.
    Good player can make best out of his character anyway and it will seem so OP in his hands.
    For example my stamina build was using a lot of potions with 20sec cd on potions only, so my healing abilities were really high combined with using quick cloak/double take to dodge a lot and high on siphoning.
    There will be always some sweet combination of skills you can use to your own advantage.
    On full stamina I could roll all the time with full magicka I can cloak all the time.
    Just different skills and types of damage really but effects are the same.
    My point is simple ...in the end it's all up to player himself, his own skills and creativity. There's no master class or OP class.

    TBH, that's what I like about this game, if you are good enough you have a lot of different builds avialable to master. - It's a theorycrafting paradise.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    Seems about right. And the being able to use so many different builds is what occupies most of my time so it is the best part and the worst part all in one. I mean; I just did a full respec to adjust another magicka build Templar and here I am reading and thinking "stamina templar has it much better" so I wonder why I just did that. Guess I did it for the heals.
    Technohic - DC Templar
    Technohicz - DC Nightblade
    Technohix - DC Sorc
    TechDKnohic - DC DK
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    technohic wrote: »
    Seems about right. And the being able to use so many different builds is what occupies most of my time so it is the best part and the worst part all in one. I mean; I just did a full respec to adjust another magicka build Templar and here I am reading and thinking "stamina templar has it much better" so I wonder why I just did that. Guess I did it for the heals.

    I think, in the end going Stamina as a Templar is more or less trading heals for disengage and offensive power.
    Edited by Sublime on May 5, 2015 1:04PM
  • technohic
    technohic
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    Sublime wrote: »
    technohic wrote: »
    Seems about right. And the being able to use so many different builds is what occupies most of my time so it is the best part and the worst part all in one. I mean; I just did a full respec to adjust another magicka build Templar and here I am reading and thinking "stamina templar has it much better" so I wonder why I just did that. Guess I did it for the heals.

    I think, in the end going Stamina as a Templar is more or less trading heals for disengage and offensive power.

    That's pretty much true. I actually think I can do some self healing pretty well still with one build I have but even with Channelled focus, I cannot heal a group so its more of trading group healing and support for disengage and offensive power. One is much better alone than the other and the other is invaluable to a group.
    Technohic - DC Templar
    Technohicz - DC Nightblade
    Technohix - DC Sorc
    TechDKnohic - DC DK
  • cozmon3c_ESO
    cozmon3c_ESO
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    so i have started a Stam sorc yesterday and i really feel the weaknesses of the class as stam, i am using some cheap sets atm though
    raveger and way of the air.

    i cant seem to maintain a good stam regen and i dont know what to do to get it higher, its only at 11k.
    though because i am a breton i can use bolt 3 times with dodge roll (which is pretty effective for escape as a stam sorc) or boundless storm 3 times (which is good mobility that doesnt use a lot of magicka in the long term)

    i have like 1300 weapon power, i cant seem to get it to go up higher then that, but i need stam regen too. i just feel like there is no way to push either stat as a stam sorc for your benefit to not just feel like a punching bag in cyrodiil.

    any advice to make my sorc not hit like a wet noodle and have good sustain would be awesome.
    Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
    ~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
    Youtube Channel - Leper
    https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos
  • Xsorus
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    There is no way DK should be considered a 5 on Debuffs and Nightblades a 4.

    Deathstroke is up way more often then Standard of Might, and Corrosive Armor while nice means ya can't use Standard of Might if you wanted a Heal Debuff. You also can pretty much ignore most armor by simply equipping a Mace and using Surprise attack anyway.

  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Xsorus wrote: »
    There is no way DK should be considered a 5 on Debuffs and Nightblades a 4.

    Deathstroke is up way more often then Standard of Might, and Corrosive Armor while nice means ya can't use Standard of Might if you wanted a Heal Debuff. You also can pretty much ignore most armor by simply equipping a Mace and using Surprise attack anyway.

    Good point I'll swap it around.

    Nightblade [Debuffs]: 4 -> 5
    Dragonknight [Debuffs]: 5 -> 4
  • david.haypreub18_ESO
    david.haypreub18_ESO
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    The Templar's Biting Jabs is terrible, terrible CC.

    The CC it does is of a minuscule duration (half a second maybe?) but gives full CC immunity to anyone hit by it that lasts for 10 times the duration of the actuall CC. So it is actually anti-CC: it gives more benefit to the target than it does to the caster.

    This is the reason that many Templars keep begging ZOS to simply remove the CC altogether, which would dramatically improve the skill.

    What other skill has players begging ZOS to remove the CC component? This is because BIting Jabs is actually anti-CC that helps the target more than the caster.
    Templars are 'just slower... by design'
    Yes, Gina actually said that (at least regarding Rushed Ceremony) right here:
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p24
    VR 16 Templar (retired until Templars get fixed)
    VR 16 Sorcerer
    38 Nightblade
    24 DK
  • Erock25
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    Category:__________________Nightblade____Sorcerer____Templar____Dragonknight
    Defense:______________________3_______________2____________4_____________5
    Mobility:______________________5_______________3____________3_____________3
    Burst:_________________________5_______________2____________4_____________3
    Debuffs:______________________5_______________1____________3_____________4
    Crowd Control/Zoning:________5_______________1____________5_____________2
    Healing/Support:______________2_______________1____________2_____________5
    Ressource Management:______5_______________2____________3_____________4

    NB = 30
    Sorc = 12
    Temp = 24
    DK = 27

    Which one of these is not like the other?
    Edited by Erock25 on May 5, 2015 5:09PM
    You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
    You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points
  • Varicite
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    Very good write-up, and I agree on most of the points covered.

    However, I'm curious about the CC / zoning section.

    For the NB, you included Dark Cloak + Surprise Attack as a hard stun, even though it includes the use of a magicka-based ability. You did note this in the write up. You did not note Mass Hysteria, even though this is the most common CC used by stamblades, even though it costs Magicka.

    I assume you did this because of the Magicka cost associated w/ Mass Hysteria?

    However, for classes such as Sorc and DK, you do not include CCs such as Defensive Rune, Restraining Prison, Burning Talons, or Fossilize. Again, I assume this is because these CCs cost Magicka as well.

    If that's the case, though, why are we including Surprise Attack's hard CC on the list if it cannot be used in combat w/out an ability that costs Magicka?
  • Bodycounter
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    I can only speak from a stamina Dragon Knight point of view: I agree with most of your points, but disagree with two of them.

    First is the crowd control. A really strong pick is fossilize in my opinion, yes it's magicka based, but many stamina builds can make use of it, to land a wrecking blow, because fossilize has two stages of crowd control. On top of that dragon leap is a low cost ultimate with huge crowd control potential and shield.

    Second point is the zoning. Im not really sure, how you rate this. But zoning in my understanding is the ability to manipulate or restrict the movement of my enemy into a certain terrain. I like and am able to manipulate my enemie's movements with abilities like standard of might/shifting or even reflective scale. Dragon leap or cinder storm are still viable options to zone opponents.

    Tl,Dr: I would rate Dragon Knight with 3/5 in terms of crowd control and zoning. In terms of debuffs, i would go with 4 or 3/5. Definitely not 5/5. Using standard for heal debuff and burning breath for reducing armor is pretty situational. I cam agree with the rest though.
    Edited by Bodycounter on May 5, 2015 7:19PM
  • ToRelax
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    Varicite wrote: »
    Very good write-up, and I agree on most of the points covered.

    However, I'm curious about the CC / zoning section.

    For the NB, you included Dark Cloak + Surprise Attack as a hard stun, even though it includes the use of a magicka-based ability. You did note this in the write up. You did not note Mass Hysteria, even though this is the most common CC used by stamblades, even though it costs Magicka.

    I assume you did this because of the Magicka cost associated w/ Mass Hysteria?

    However, for classes such as Sorc and DK, you do not include CCs such as Defensive Rune, Restraining Prison, Burning Talons, or Fossilize. Again, I assume this is because these CCs cost Magicka as well.

    If that's the case, though, why are we including Surprise Attack's hard CC on the list if it cannot be used in combat w/out an ability that costs Magicka?

    Not going to answer the full question - but for Defensive Rune I can say, the cost is very low, but you don't have the 1.5 seconds to channel it usually and if you do, the skill will not synergize as well as on a magicka build. Usually you use that to get a free second when someone breaks your shield, but stam Sorc doesn't have a big shield. The other morph (Rune Cage) won't help much either, you would channel 1.5 seconds to make an enemy player cc break and the morph effect is useless either as you don't have any DoTs besides maybe Twin Slashes or Poison Arrrow if you applied those before. Although, I'll have to test wether Rune Cage breaks on Flurry.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Sublime
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    Varicite wrote: »
    Very good write-up, and I agree on most of the points covered.

    However, I'm curious about the CC / zoning section.

    For the NB, you included Dark Cloak + Surprise Attack as a hard stun, even though it includes the use of a magicka-based ability. You did note this in the write up. You did not note Mass Hysteria, even though this is the most common CC used by stamblades, even though it costs Magicka.

    I assume you did this because of the Magicka cost associated w/ Mass Hysteria?

    However, for classes such as Sorc and DK, you do not include CCs such as Defensive Rune, Restraining Prison, Burning Talons, or Fossilize. Again, I assume this is because these CCs cost Magicka as well.

    If that's the case, though, why are we including Surprise Attack's hard CC on the list if it cannot be used in combat w/out an ability that costs Magicka?

    That's pretty much what I was thinking, with the only difference that I added it, because the stun itself comes from Surprise Attack, Dark Cloak is just the easy way to enter stealth. I however have to admit that I didn't expect such an extensive use of Magicka based CC from Stamina build and also didn't point out the free CC-immunity of Biting Jabs.
    Second point is the zoning. Im not really sure, how you rate this. But zoning in my understanding is the ability to manipulate or restrict the movement of my enemy into a certain terrain. I like and am able to manipulate my enemie's movements with abilities like standard of might/shifting or even reflective scale. Dragon leap or cinder storm are still viable options to zone opponents.

    Seems like I got quite some things wrong in this category, which might be because I though many skills were much more expensive than they seem to be, or it's just my lack of experience with Stamina builds.

    Because the suggestions basically affect all classes I decided to rewrite the CC/Zoning category:

    Crowd Control/Zoning: 4 | 1 | 3 | 4
    While there are is only very limited CC/Zoning provided the the Stamina class skills, some of the Magicka based skills are either cheap or powerful enough to make the viable on a Stamina build.

    Nightblade, 4: With Surprise Attack + Cloak the NB has some partial physical CC that gets supplemented by the root of Ambush. Apart from that the power of Mass Hysteria makes it viable despite its high cost, even for Stamina builds.

    Sorcerer, 1: There might not be any CC in the Stamina morphs, but thanks to its low cost Defensive Rune can be quite useful if you manage to channel it.

    Templar, 3: Yes, Biting Jabs and Binding Javeling do have build in CC but the short Duration of the Jabs' stun makes it rather a bane than a boon. However, Nova can offer a lot of zoning thanks to its big AOE and huge damage potential.

    Dragonknight, 4: The DK might not have any CC on his Stamina morphs, Fossilize however allows him to set up enemies for any form of channeled attack (Uppercut/Molten Weapons). On top of that Dragonknight Standard, Dragon Leap and Cinder Storm allow for some decent Zoning or Crowd Control.

    What do you think of this version (didn't apply it to OP yet, since I'd first like to know if it's actually better)?

    Corrected the Debuff numbers in the table, so they now match the ones in the Explanation.
  • Bodycounter
    Bodycounter
    ✭✭✭
    Too bad, that Extended Chains don't have a viable stamina morph. That ability looked so nice for PvP, when i started with the game, but it's pretty useless and even self-dangerous right now. Tried to make this ability viable, but couldn't. This ability could have huge zoning potential.

    I think your writeup is pretty solid now. Let's see, what other players experienced.
    Edited by Bodycounter on May 6, 2015 7:46AM
  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Too bad, that Extended Chains don't have a viable stamina morph. That ability looked so nice for PvP, when i started with the game, but it's pretty useless and even self-dangerous right now. Tried to make this ability viable, but couldn't. This ability could have huge zoning potential.

    I just started playing DK yesterday, and I was so surprised how restricted some of the skills are. IMO, the saddest thing is that you can't use chains to pull players down/up. I see that it could be exploited to take keeps without actually being affected by walls, but I also miss it on cliffs and such. Something similar holds true for Dragon Leap of course.
  • Bodycounter
    Bodycounter
    ✭✭✭
    Dragon Leap works much better than extended Chains. Extended Chains are too restrictive to use and the time it actually works you may pull yourself into the enemies. I was able to jump on a wall with Dragon Leap and push 4 enemies down, that was actually extremely fun. But you want the damage shield on Dragon Leap, not the higher range, so yeah...
  • LegendaryMage
    LegendaryMage
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    so i have started a Stam sorc yesterday

    I have played it for a couple of months. It just doesn't work. Go back to magica or reroll another class if you want to play full stamina. You can experiment with hybrid setups but that's not going to be too healthy either. I can open a thread and explain how I've been playing it if you're interested to read it.
  • Kas
    Kas
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    i loved your other analysis thread, but imho this one discards an improtnat fact:
    there are MANY gereat stamina weapon skills and spance on bars for class skills is very limitted.
    hence it is hard to even coutn skills liek binding javelin or even potl in many cases.

    Even jabs has to compete with wreacking blow (jabs has awesome damage and an AoE component but the CC part is more of a free CC immunity - very unliek wrekcing blow's KB).

    Hence crucial class skills that have no comparable weapon skill or even more relevant. In particular NB's fear and DK's scales come to mind.
    @bbu - AD/EU
    Kasiia - Templar (AR46)
    Kasiir Aberion - Sorc (AR38)
    Dr Kastafari - Warden (~AR31)
    + many others
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Kas wrote: »
    i loved your other analysis thread, but imho this one discards an improtnat fact:
    there are MANY gereat stamina weapon skills and spance on bars for class skills is very limitted.
    hence it is hard to even coutn skills liek binding javelin or even potl in many cases.

    Even jabs has to compete with wreacking blow (jabs has awesome damage and an AoE component but the CC part is more of a free CC immunity - very unliek wrekcing blow's KB).

    Hence crucial class skills that have no comparable weapon skill or even more relevant. In particular NB's fear and DK's scales come to mind.

    What does "potl" mean?

    Apart from that, I think you're saying that Stamina builds are in general very similar to each other because most skills are available to everybody. But since there are some class abilities that synergize really well with Stamina, those classes get quite an edge over the others, especially since there are so few Stamina skills in the class skill trees.
  • Erondil
    Erondil
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    I think NB should have 4-5 in defence. They basically can dodgeroll 30% more than other classes and dodgeroll is the best defensive tool for stamina builds. Eventhough cloak is quite expensive its still purge dot for less than purge and can be used as a magicka based dodgeroll if the NB is out of stamina (3 cloak = 9 secs all miss and12k+ stamina back)
    Edited by Erondil on May 6, 2015 11:25AM
    ~retired~
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  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Erondil wrote: »
    I think NB should have 4-5 in defence. They basically can dodgeroll 30% more than other classes and dodgeroll is the best defensive tool for stamina builds. Eventhough cloak is quite expensive its still purge dot for less than purge and can be used as a magicka based dodgeroll if the NB is out of stamina (3 cloak = 9 secs all miss and12k+ stamina back)

    Good point, I forgot that dodge roll doesn't only improve mobility but also evades damage, therefore providing more overall damage mitigation.

    Nightblade [Defense]: 3 -> 4
  • LegendaryMage
    LegendaryMage
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    Stam sorc verdict. Big plain 0. :)
  • Soulac
    Soulac
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    ✭✭
    In my opinion everyone is able to burst while running a two handed sword.
    Nightblade a bit better since they got surprise attack, so 5 for them and 4 for the rest.

    DK and Nightblade are both great in ressource management since battle roar is like an another Potion, granting enough Ressources. I'd give both 5pts.
    Also I dimmunity and then there are a skills like Talons or Encase or even Petrify.
    A streak using sorc combined with Encase is able to cc many people quite often, same as a DK with Talons or his leap, while NBs 'only' got a melee stun and no AoE root.

    I'd put sorc on 3-4, DK on 5, NB on 4.
    Sorc: AoE Root, stun combined in movement skill, single target stun
    DK: Single target stun + root in one skill, AoE root, AoE Stun as ultimate
    NB: expensive Single target stun (cloak + surprise attack), AoE melee stun, AoE and Single target slow (Single target blockable and reflectable root + dot)

    In mobility I see sorc as an 4 since Magicka costs are not an excuse as long as you spend CP or some equip in that direction.
    It's build based, but the class is able to use nice mobility options.
    Nightblade on 5 with shadow image is completely acceptable.

    Anyway I think you can't really say which class is the strongest since it's all a matter of the player playing the class and the build. Of course one class is better at something than an another one and some classes are just not made for Stamina.. Look at sorc.
    Sorc should get something for Stamina, maybe Templar a bit too.
    Edited by Soulac on May 6, 2015 11:58AM
    R.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
    Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
    Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU

    - Meow -
  • Kas
    Kas
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    Kas wrote: »
    i loved your other analysis thread, but imho this one discards an improtnat fact:
    there are MANY gereat stamina weapon skills and spance on bars for class skills is very limitted.
    hence it is hard to even coutn skills liek binding javelin or even potl in many cases.

    Even jabs has to compete with wreacking blow (jabs has awesome damage and an AoE component but the CC part is more of a free CC immunity - very unliek wrekcing blow's KB).

    Hence crucial class skills that have no comparable weapon skill or even more relevant. In particular NB's fear and DK's scales come to mind.

    What does "potl" mean?

    Apart from that, I think you're saying that Stamina builds are in general very similar to each other because most skills are available to everybody. But since there are some class abilities that synergize really well with Stamina, those classes get quite an edge over the others, especially since there are so few Stamina skills in the class skill trees.

    potl = power of the light

    yes, exactly. the sheer count of usuful skills matters much less than the quaility of the top 2 or 3 class skills
    @bbu - AD/EU
    Kasiia - Templar (AR46)
    Kasiir Aberion - Sorc (AR38)
    Dr Kastafari - Warden (~AR31)
    + many others
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    I think according to the feedback, that the new CC/Zoning part is at least better than the previous one, so I decided to put it into OP.
    Crowd Control/Zoning: 4 | 1 | 3 | 4
    While there are is only very limited CC/Zoning provided the the Stamina class skills, some of the Magicka based skills are either cheap or powerful enough to make the viable on a Stamina build.

    Nightblade, 4: With Surprise Attack + Cloak the NB has some partial physical CC that gets supplemented by the root of Ambush. Apart from that the power of Mass Hysteria makes it viable despite its high cost, even for Stamina builds.

    Sorcerer, 1: There might not be any CC in the Stamina morphs, but thanks to its low cost Defensive Rune can be quite useful if you manage to channel it.

    Templar, 3: Yes, Biting Jabs and Binding Javeling do have build in CC but the short Duration of the Jabs' stun makes it rather a bane than a boon. However, Nova can offer a lot of zoning thanks to its big AOE and huge damage potential.

    Dragonknight, 4: The DK might not have any CC on his Stamina morphs, Fossilize however allows him to set up enemies for any form of channeled attack (Uppercut/Molten Weapons). On top of that Dragonknight Standard, Dragon Leap and Cinder Storm allow for some decent Zoning or Crowd Control.
    Soulac wrote: »
    In my opinion everyone is able to burst while running a two handed sword.
    Nightblade a bit better since they got surprise attack, so 5 for them and 4 for the rest.

    That's the reason why I tried to compare only the class skills, otherwise everybody would get a lot of beneftis through all the weapon skills, which would change the whole picture. I'm not sure whether the chosen structure is more representative, but I think it makes the comparison between the classes a lot easier.
    Soulac wrote: »
    DK and Nightblade are both great in ressource management since battle roar is like an another Potion, granting enough Ressources. I'd give both 5pts.

    Seems legit, especially since Stamina DK's tend to have more Max Stamina than others, therefore getting increased benefits from Battle Roar and Helping Hands.

    Dragonknight [Ressource Management]: 4 -> 5
    Soulac wrote: »
    Also I dimmunity and then there are a skills like Talons or Encase or even Petrify.
    A streak using sorc combined with Encase is able to cc many people quite often, same as a DK with Talons or his leap, while NBs 'only' got a melee stun and no AoE root.

    I'd put sorc on 3-4, DK on 5, NB on 4.
    Sorc: AoE Root, stun combined in movement skill, single target stun
    DK: Single target stun + root in one skill, AoE root, AoE Stun as ultimate
    NB: expensive Single target stun (cloak + surprise attack), AoE melee stun, AoE and Single target slow (Single target blockable and reflectable root + dot)

    The CC of Encase/Streak, is certainly very powerful, but I don't really see a Stamina build using this as reliable CC, simply because of its (especially Encase) high cost. I see that the NB lacks the DK's non-ult AOE CC, but the high cost of Talons makes me doubt that a Dragonknight, which already tends to struggle with Magicka, can use it extensively.
    Soulac wrote: »
    In mobility I see sorc as an 4 since Magicka costs are not an excuse as long as you spend CP or some equip in that direction.
    It's build based, but the class is able to use nice mobility options.
    Nightblade on 5 with shadow image is completely acceptable.

    Completely agree.

    Sorcerer [Mobility]: 3 -> 4
  • Bashev
    Bashev
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why DKs have 5 defense? Neither reflective scales nor obsidian shields are cheap magicka skills.
    Nothing but the best is good enough!
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Bashev wrote: »
    Why DKs have 5 defense? Neither reflective scales nor obsidian shields are cheap magicka skills.

    They have a lot of defensive Passive skills and very good Ressource Management, combined with some good ultimates and bunch of good buffs. Yes they require a lot of Magicka regenration in comparison to other Stamina builds, but that's because they have a lot of buffs to sustain.
  • Soulac
    Soulac
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    Soulac wrote: »
    Also I dimmunity and then there are a skills like Talons or Encase or even Petrify.
    A streak using sorc combined with Encase is able to cc many people quite often, same as a DK with Talons or his leap, while NBs 'only' got a melee stun and no AoE root.

    I'd put sorc on 3-4, DK on 5, NB on 4.
    Sorc: AoE Root, stun combined in movement skill, single target stun
    DK: Single target stun + root in one skill, AoE root, AoE Stun as ultimate
    NB: expensive Single target stun (cloak + surprise attack), AoE melee stun, AoE and Single target slow (Single target blockable and reflectable root + dot)

    The CC of Encase/Streak, is certainly very powerful, but I don't really see a Stamina build using this as reliable CC, simply because of its (especially Encase) high cost. I see that the NB lacks the DK's non-ult AOE CC, but the high cost of Talons makes me doubt that a Dragonknight, which already tends to struggle with Magicka, can use it extensively.

    Nightblades don't have an Stamina CC either, so high cost is not an argument in my opinion.
    Fear is high cost Magicka, same with the cloak + surprise attack combination. Also the combination takes much more time than a simple fear, petrifiy or a shard.
    Cripple is Magicka based as well and not worth a slot as Stamina Build since it's reflect and block able, also the main reason to use it is a the dot which scales with Magicka and Spelldmg.

    Again:
    I'd put sorc on 3-4, DK on 5, NB on 4.

    Sorc and DK CC are expensive, so are NB CCs, but as I see DK got more options to CC more players at the same time which is better overall.
    Edited by Soulac on May 6, 2015 1:11PM
    R.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
    Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
    Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU

    - Meow -
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