Double CC - Fossilize
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Sphinx2318✭✭✭✭hammayolettuce wrote: »
Mass Hysteria has a hard CC in which you need to break and then are able to move around and fight offensively and defensively. However, Fossilize is a hard CC and then a soft CC in which you are forced to exert more stamina after the CC break of the initial hard CC. No other skill in the game goes through block and drains a stamina pool as much as fossilize does.
Its seems you are missing the point of discussion here. A heal debuff still allows you to escape or fight with shields up. a soft CC forces you to stand there and either hold block and lose more stamina or go offensive from within the soft CC. However, with fossilize, if you break the initial hard CC and remain within the soft CC until it ends you can be fossilized shortly after and not regain stamina at a fast enough pace to stay alive.
The main issue here is having to use 2x the stamina of any other skill to fully escape it. As a stamina build this isnt an issue, for a magicka build with a low stamina pool it is.
As i stated before, instead of having the soft CC after the hard CC, it needs to just be a stamina debuff and reduce stamina regen by X amount for X amount of time.
perhaps its YOU that is not getting it bro. while fossilized you cannot be damaged!!!! OR YOU ARE BROKEN OUT OF IT FOR FREE. So you can wait out the stunn CC and decide whether or not to waste your stamina to break out of the root.
For the last time: the skill is WORKING AS INTENDED.
This 100% boils down to a L2P issue about resource management. you dont have to break free twice, you are CHOOSING to do so.1 -
hammayolettuce wrote: »
This discussion is not about ones level of play or other issues or complaints with other classes or skills. It is simply about why this skill requires the affected player to CC break twice to fully remove the abilities functions.
Thank you for your thought provoking input.
I think when most people read this they will get the inference that a call for nerfing fossilize is what this is about.
Its the same theme we have seen and are seeing played out for skills of other class atm as well.
People are asking for the homogenization of skills, so they can be on a perceived 'level' playing ground.
Ive played too many pvp mmos to know that every class has its perks in pvp. However, whatever those perks may be, good players will use and overcome them.
And thats the point Im making.
If everyone here continues to complain about every skill in this game, this game wont be around. And 2 years later people will be reminiscing with one another about 'remember whens' in ESO with blissful nostalgia and wishing the game was back.
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cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »
I think when most people read this they will get the inference that a call for nerfing fossilize is what this is about.
Its the same theme we have seen and are seeing played out for skills of other class atm as well.
People are asking for the homogenization of skills, so they can be on a perceived 'level' playing ground.
Ive played too many pvp mmos to know that every class has its perks in pvp. However, whatever those perks may be, good players will use and overcome them.
And thats the point Im making.
If everyone here continues to complain about every skill in this game, this game wont be around. And 2 years later people will be reminiscing with one another about 'remember whens' in ESO with blissful nostalgia and wishing the game was back.
your wrong dialogue needs to happen to discover what is truely op. like how fossilize and fear have no skillful counters as they cant be dodged or blocked, they need a way to avoid them or interrupt them so its not just easy mode for dk's and NB to set up there massive burst damage combos.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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The root happens all the time, my question was the "deep freeze" is a stun and I wasn't sure if with that it functioned as a double cc like fossilize.
Deep Freeze isn't actually a stun, it's just a slightly longer root.
The ability basically works exactly like Crippling Grasp, minus the Major Expedition buff.0 -
Isbilen✭✭✭✭✭It would be very nice if they reverted this morph to do what it did pre-1.6, reducing the target's recovery values by 50%. Then we would have a proper counter to the trollblades rolling all over the place.1 -
GhostShadows✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »The double cc part of it need to go.
Note I'm not saying eliminate the root of the morph, but the root should be gone if you cc break out of the stun part. It shouldn't operate as two separate ccs (that is instant cast lol).
make it aoe insted like fear0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would be very nice if they reverted this morph to do what it did pre-1.6, reducing the target's recovery values by 50%. Then we would have a proper counter to the trollblades rolling all over the place.
I'm not sure how many people in this thread actually PLAY DKs.
I assume the reason that it was changed was:
1) The regen mechanic was too powerful, even pre 1.6.
2) DK dps consists of a huge number of DoTs. I cannot count the number of times I have Fossilized someone only to have the effect break immediately to my own DoTs. Most of the times, the root is the only reason I am even using this CC because the disorient isn't going to work.
For classes that do not rely so heavily on DoTs, I can understand having CC that breaks immediately on damage and has no followup root effect. But in practice, it's not like NB Agony (NBs have only Crippling Grasp for DoTs) or Sorc Rune Prison (their only "DoT" is Curse). You can easily choose not to use that 1 ability if you need to CC.
DKs consist of WAY MORE DoT damage than these other classes, and unless you build specifically NOT to have DoT damage, you're going to have some on your bar, whether it's Talons, Breath, Searing Flame, Standard, Molten Armor, etc. Even most of the direct damage abilities are going to proc Burning.
Anyway, that's my take on why they added a root effect to Fossilize. Because otherwise, it's just a waste of Magicka in many circumstances.1 -
cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »
your wrong dialogue needs to happen to discover what is truely op. like how fossilize and fear have no skillful counters as they cant be dodged or blocked, they need a way to avoid them or interrupt them so its not just easy mode for dk's and NB to set up there massive burst damage combos.
Im not wrong.
If fossilze were a major problem then
1. More people would use it
2. Good pvpers would be expressing themselves.
The fact that many solo 1vX pvpers arent complaining is because they deal with it and come out on top.
What does fossilize do to you?
Ok you can waste a bunch of stam or you can eat 1 atk.
Not a big deal.
Stam regen is massive... so u cc break it bolt away to regen it and put defense sorc root on you to do the same thing to the dk.1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Going from playing a DK who used Fossilize + Wrecking Blow Combo, to a nightblade using basically Surprise Attack, I don't see how anyone could complain about the DK's combo....In the time it takes to do it, I could hit ya with 3 or 4 Surprise Attacks..Its 10x easier to get off.
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Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Going from playing a DK who used Fossilize + Wrecking Blow Combo, to a nightblade using basically Surprise Attack, I don't see how anyone could complain about the DK's combo....In the time it takes to do it, I could hit ya with 3 or 4 Surprise Attacks..Its 10x easier to get off.
So 3 or 4 cloak + surprise attacks in the time it takes to do one instant cast fossilize + wrecking blow? That doesn't make sense but maybe I'm not understanding what you are trying to convey.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
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cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »
Im not wrong.
If fossilze were a major problem then
1. More people would use it
2. Good pvpers would be expressing themselves.
The fact that many solo 1vX pvpers arent complaining is because they deal with it and come out on top.
What does fossilize do to you?
Ok you can waste a bunch of stam or you can eat 1 atk.
Not a big deal.
Stam regen is massive... so u cc break it bolt away to regen it and put defense sorc root on you to do the same thing to the dk.
and magicka based builds for the other classes that dont have bolt escape do what exactly? have to take a double hit to their stam because there i no real way to avoid this attack that can be followed up with insane burst damage. its bad enough even if you have bolt escape, i cant imagine how painful it is to the other magicka based classes that are set up in light armor.
Petrify and fear need to be avoidable in some skillful way, like either dodge rollable or blockable but not boht at the same time, or make it so it has to be cast for 1 second giving the defender a chance to interrupt. I was arguing with a nightblade last night on TS about how fear is over powered, he was adament that it wasnt until i asked him how many times does he wtf pwn someone with out using fear, his response is that it was almost never. if i can get someone like him who was super defensive about abilities like fear and petrify, then i should be able to open your eyes to it too.
how often do you wtf pwn people and fossilized is placed right before the wtf burst?Edited by cozmon3c_ESO on May 1, 2015 5:34PMGuild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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So 3 or 4 cloak + surprise attacks in the time it takes to do one instant cast fossilize + wrecking blow? That doesn't make sense but maybe I'm not understanding what you are trying to convey.
Why on earth would you need to use Cloak?
That's what doesn't make sense. <.<
What he's saying is that he can use Mass Hysteria > Surprise Attack x3-4 in the time it takes to do Fossilize + Wrecking Blow.
In my experience, you can actually only get off 2 Surprise Attacks in the same amount of time, however if they don't break Hysteria, you should have enough time to get off 4 Surprise Attacks before the CC wears off.
As opposed to 1 (maybe 2, depending on how good they are at dodging) Wrecking Blow, since WB will break the Fossilize CC after 1 hit.
Edited by Varicite on May 1, 2015 5:37PM0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
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Why on earth would you need to use Cloak?
That's what doesn't make sense. <.<
What he's saying is that he can use Mass Hysteria > Surprise Attack x3-4 in the time it takes to do Fossilize + Wrecking Blow.
In my experience, you can actually only get off 2 Surprise Attacks in the same amount of time, however if they don't break Hysteria, you should have enough time to get off 4 Surprise Attacks before the CC wears off.
As opposed to 1 (maybe 2, depending on how good they are at dodging) Wrecking Blow, since WB will break the Fossilize CC after 1 hit.
Ok I got it now. Makes sense what he was trying to say if those Surprise Attacks come after the fear.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
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Poxheart✭✭✭✭✭As opposed to 1 (maybe 2, depending on how good they are at dodging) Wrecking Blow, since WB will break the Fossilize CC after 1 hit.
Most opponents I Fossilize break & roll before Wrecking Blow finishes. I'd dump the skill if DKs had a decent non-DoT stamina attack.
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Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
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Most opponents I Fossilize break & roll before Wrecking Blow finishes. I'd dump the skill if DKs had a decent non-DoT stamina attack.
DKs badly need a stamina morph of Lava Whip.
And Magicka builds could use some sort of spell pen assistance, or additional crit. Or something.Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
DKs badly need a stamina morph of Lava Whip.
And Magicka builds could use some sort of spell pen assistance, or additional crit. Or something.
I don't disagree, but felt the need to point out that DKs have access to the best Major Prophecy toggle (Sea of Flames), which is basically a better version of Inner Light.
I recently rerolled a stamina DK just to mess around w/ (after 3 VR+ NBs). She is basically the same as one of my stamblades, 2h / DW, w/ a few differences due to class specifics.
I love her to pieces, and I'm having a great time, but there's always that nagging feeling that my NBs simply do it better.
I probably never would have seen this coming this time last year, lol.
Edited by Varicite on May 1, 2015 6:56PM0 -
Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭i actually do have a problem with this skill..
but its not that its instant cast or unblockable...
i do find that the root is just a bit too much on top of it all, but remember, you will not take full damage from the breaking attack because of how the skill works so the rest of it is fine.
this is one of the few single target CC abilitys that works as intended and is effective in its use.
Compaired to Rune Prison and Agony anyways, which need buffs.I play every class in every situation. I love them all.0 -
cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »
and magicka based builds for the other classes that dont have bolt escape do what exactly? have to take a double hit to their stam because there i no real way to avoid this attack that can be followed up with insane burst damage. its bad enough even if you have bolt escape, i cant imagine how painful it is to the other magicka based classes that are set up in light armor.
Petrify and fear need to be avoidable in some skillful way, like either dodge rollable or blockable but not boht at the same time, or make it so it has to be cast for 1 second giving the defender a chance to interrupt. I was arguing with a nightblade last night on TS about how fear is over powered, he was adament that it wasnt until i asked him how many times does he wtf pwn someone with out using fear, his response is that it was almost never. if i can get someone like him who was super defensive about abilities like fear and petrify, then i should be able to open your eyes to it too.
how often do you wtf pwn people and fossilized is placed right before the wtf burst?
of the 2 fear is more of the OMG skill
If you are not a Sorc there are other ways
NB- break, cloak port and atk-- or roll and create room
Templar-- break, blazing shield + blazing spear for IE for mitigation and your own CC
DK- lol fossilize him back right after? ob shard, talons then DD spam as an IE.
Im not saying fossilze isnt powerful-- it is, as it should be. But other classes have their "OP" skills too. Im fine with it, I live with it and through it.
Sometimes I die sometimes I dont--its part of the pvp cycle.
Also-- how many player are actual using fossilize in their rotation? Its not like 99% of the pvp population is.
Fossilize is more for the very small scale, solo pvper. Its not incredibly useful in mass pvp as its single target.
IMO Talons is more powerful as it hits u upfront with a DD then DoTs u there after and doesnt count against he hard CC cap.
Im more worried about a properly built templar with great magic sustain and a high HP pool-- as that guy will hit me hard while trying to damage him.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don´t think anyone can make conclusions about the potential of fossilize because of the state of the DK class in general. Magica DKs are heavily gutted by harness (dot absorb - lol) and nirnhoned and stamina DKs simply lack a spammable anytimer.
It´s a powerful ability (maybe op in combination with WB in small scale) but for some builds its the last straw. Maybe replace the root with a snare...<Noricum>
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don´t think anyone can make conclusions about the potential of fossilize because of the state of the DK class in general. Magica DKs are heavily gutted by harness (dot absorb - lol) and nirnhoned and stamina DKs simply lack a spammable anytimer.
It´s a powerful ability (maybe op in combination with WB in small scale) but for some builds its the last straw. Maybe replace the root with a snare...
I'd probably still use it if they got rid of the incapacitate altogether and just kept the root. More often than not, the incapacitate portion doesn't do anything at all.
1 DoT tick breaks it and then it's just a really expensive ranged root that does no damage.0 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't disagree, but felt the need to point out that DKs have access to the best Major Prophecy toggle (Sea of Flames), which is basically a better version of Inner Light.
I recently rerolled a stamina DK just to mess around w/ (after 3 VR+ NBs). She is basically the same as one of my stamblades, 2h / DW, w/ a few differences due to class specifics.
I love her to pieces, and I'm having a great time, but there's always that nagging feeling that my NBs simply do it better.
I probably never would have seen this coming this time last year, lol.
Yeah. With the changes to the four classes and how DKs were singled out for their previous OPness (yes, the LA Tank DK was op as hell), it's not unsurprising they're the bottom of the balance charts this go around.
The best synergy I get with the new skills in game right now is Igneous Shield + Vigor (as Igneous essentially refunds me enough stamina to cast Vigor AND boosts the healing).
Right now the current archetypes for DK are just kinda meh now. Stamina builds are viable, but even better if a different class. Magicka sustain tanks work, but suffer heavily against nirnhoned and no longer have the burst in a burst reliant meta (ie: they are lunchmeat vs a good sorc). And there's Fire Mages which are completely nonviable outside of large group play, imo (meaning they need a bunch of support to not be ultra squishy and get wrecked 1v1) and those also suffer heavily against Nirnhoned.
So, as it is, I've had more fun and more success in small group and 1v1 encounters as both my Templar and NB alts.Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
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