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Double CC - Fossilize

  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Tankqull wrote: »
    Aquanova wrote: »
    Tankqull wrote: »
    Bouvin wrote: »
    Huntler wrote: »
    well one of the answers is nirn getting reduced in strength. However, to your point, I don't actually have to provide an answer. Just because an ability is broken on a weak class doesn't mean I have to provide an answer when discussing the broken ability. For sure magicka DKs need some help, so do some other builds. This thread is about what is clearly a broken ability. If you disagree we can discuss that, you don't leave a broken ability ingame because a class is weak... they are not linked.

    I already was clear why I think its a broken ability, but two forms of CC in an instant ability with no animation is just silly. Also your logic on that its dodgable as why you don't use it goes over my head I guess... Regardless I don't feel to strongly about this subject since there are other bigger fish to fry when it comes to game balance, but I saw the post so I gave my opinion.

    Wait...

    DKs are a weak class?

    ---

    jayz-and-kanye-laughing.png

    You need to change your calendar from 2014 to 2015.

    well their is a significant difference in beeing the most overpowered class ever (2014) and beeing rather balanced (in 2015) where they are by no means a weak class - none the less fossilize is horribly broken currently and needs to be fixed, 2 ccs wich needs to be broken seperatly, providing the overflow shieldbug, at range without CT while all other comparable spells have a casting time is ridiculous.

    @Tankqull. It's not broken if it does what it's supposed to.

    nirn does what its tool tip states and is clearly broken, so is fossi.

    Nirn is not broken, it is just more effective than intended, and we know this because the devs said so.

    If you want to argue that fossilize is more effective than intended(as opposed to 'broken'), then i suggest you get a dev officially state that this is so. Until then, the comparison to nirn falls flat.
    Edited by Sharee on April 30, 2015 10:17AM
  • Maulkin
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    It's certainly not broken, it's working as intended. The discussion really is whether it's OP or not.

    Two separate CCs on an instacast, unblockable skill is certainly quite a bit of CC. However I don't find it OP for example compared to Fear which is a 3-target AoE, has a snare (similar to immob imo), a damage debuff and more importantly does not break on damage.

    So yeah it's highly annoying. It's very powerful on 1v1s. But I don't think it's OP personally.
    EU | PC | AD
  • olsborg
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    I just wonder why this kinda of cc is instant cast for dks, but nbs and sorcs have an equivalent spell (agony and rune cage) but those spells have 1.5 sec cast time....why?

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    olsborg wrote: »
    I just wonder why this kinda of cc is instant cast for dks, but nbs and sorcs have an equivalent spell (agony and rune cage) but those spells have 1.5 sec cast time....why?

    Well, NBs have Fear which is superior. Having two instacast unblockable hard CCs on the same class would be overkill. I'm not even sure if you'd have space for both on your bars. I know I probably wouldn't on my NB

    As for the Sorc, sure I'd LOVE rune cage to be instacast, but if I'm honest I don't think the class needs it. It's a very strong, bursty, mobile class without it. It doesn't need to be a CC monster too. I don't think I'd ever lose a duel to a non-Sorc if I had a tool like instacast Rune Cage in my arsenal.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Sharee
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    Personally, i do not find it to be a big deal probably because of the specs i play.

    On my stamina NB, the root is a non-factor, because i always roll dodge after a CC break - not because of roots, but because if someone has you CC-ed, there is a high probability he has a big hit incoming in your direction. So i dodge the wrecking blow, and removing the root is just a cherry on top.

    On my tank DK, i have forward momentum slotted, so any roots/snares are automatically removed as a part of my normal HOT/damage buff refresh. Either that or i just ignore the root and keep swinging, after all it was aplied by a DK so he is likely in melee range.
    Edited by Sharee on April 30, 2015 11:15AM
  • Varicite
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    olsborg wrote: »
    I just wonder why this kinda of cc is instant cast for dks, but nbs and sorcs have an equivalent spell (agony and rune cage) but those spells have 1.5 sec cast time....why?

    Well, NBs have Fear which is superior. Having two instacast unblockable hard CCs on the same class would be overkill. I'm not even sure if you'd have space for both on your bars. I know I probably wouldn't on my NB

    As for the Sorc, sure I'd LOVE rune cage to be instacast, but if I'm honest I don't think the class needs it. It's a very strong, bursty, mobile class without it. It doesn't need to be a CC monster too. I don't think I'd ever lose a duel to a non-Sorc if I had a tool like instacast Rune Cage in my arsenal.

    Well, there's Defensive Rune....

    Too RNG for my tastes, though.
  • Aquanova
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    Tankqull wrote: »
    Aquanova wrote: »
    Tankqull wrote: »
    Bouvin wrote: »
    Huntler wrote: »
    well one of the answers is nirn getting reduced in strength. However, to your point, I don't actually have to provide an answer. Just because an ability is broken on a weak class doesn't mean I have to provide an answer when discussing the broken ability. For sure magicka DKs need some help, so do some other builds. This thread is about what is clearly a broken ability. If you disagree we can discuss that, you don't leave a broken ability ingame because a class is weak... they are not linked.

    I already was clear why I think its a broken ability, but two forms of CC in an instant ability with no animation is just silly. Also your logic on that its dodgable as why you don't use it goes over my head I guess... Regardless I don't feel to strongly about this subject since there are other bigger fish to fry when it comes to game balance, but I saw the post so I gave my opinion.

    Wait...

    DKs are a weak class?

    ---

    jayz-and-kanye-laughing.png

    You need to change your calendar from 2014 to 2015.

    well their is a significant difference in beeing the most overpowered class ever (2014) and beeing rather balanced (in 2015) where they are by no means a weak class - none the less fossilize is horribly broken currently and needs to be fixed, 2 ccs wich needs to be broken seperatly, providing the overflow shieldbug, at range without CT while all other comparable spells have a casting time is ridiculous.

    @Tankqull. It's not broken if it does what it's supposed to.

    nirn does what its tool tip states and is clearly broken, so is fossi.
    CF dmg increasement stacking by it self is clearly broken even though the tool tip doesent state it shouldn´t - should i go on?

    Nirn stacking 24% spell resistance per piece of armor and fossilize having to be CC broke twice is like comparing apples to orangerrrs.....no, rather a T-bone steak, but please.....do go on.
    NA/PC
  • ToRelax
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    Only problem I have with Fossilize is when you spam it and then it is broken.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • Soulac
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    Only problem I have with Fossilize is when you spam it and then it is broken.

    Even worse if your enemy stuns you in mid dodge and you need a short longer time to break it, then you get wrecking blowed..
    Always nice to be able to move, but not being able to use potions or skills for a moment <. <
    R.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
    Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
    Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU

    - Meow -
  • Varicite
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    Soulac wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Only problem I have with Fossilize is when you spam it and then it is broken.

    Even worse if your enemy stuns you in mid dodge and you need a short longer time to break it, then you get wrecking blowed..
    Always nice to be able to move, but not being able to use potions or skills for a moment <. <

    Fossilize is one of the very few things a stamina DK can use to counter dodge rolling. : c
  • Soulac
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    Varicite wrote: »
    Soulac wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Only problem I have with Fossilize is when you spam it and then it is broken.

    Even worse if your enemy stuns you in mid dodge and you need a short longer time to break it, then you get wrecking blowed..
    Always nice to be able to move, but not being able to use potions or skills for a moment <. <

    Fossilize is one of the very few things a stamina DK can use to counter dodge rolling. : c

    I know, but that damn bug :(
    Don't want to hug the ground for 2-3 seconds unable to break cc..


    R.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
    Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
    Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU

    - Meow -
  • Varicite
    Varicite
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    Soulac wrote: »
    Varicite wrote: »
    Soulac wrote: »
    ToRelax wrote: »
    Only problem I have with Fossilize is when you spam it and then it is broken.

    Even worse if your enemy stuns you in mid dodge and you need a short longer time to break it, then you get wrecking blowed..
    Always nice to be able to move, but not being able to use potions or skills for a moment <. <

    Fossilize is one of the very few things a stamina DK can use to counter dodge rolling. : c

    I know, but that damn bug :(
    Don't want to hug the ground for 2-3 seconds unable to break cc..


    Agreed, I don't want to bug people out when I'm casting it on them. I just want to be able to actually hit them!
  • Domander
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    I use fossilize, and it's often used on me... I dont see a problem with it. It's a much needed block breaker, and it prevents more damage than it does.
  • CP5
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    Doesn't Frost Clench work similarly to this?
  • Tankqull
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    frost clench is a 30-40% chance on activation to root the target for 3 seconds, no 20+ second stun+2,5sec root, no dmg shield etc.

    if all 3 clenches would allways be activated regardless of the destrostaff choosen then you would have sth comparable to fossilize.
    spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused

    Sallington wrote: »
    Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"


  • CP5
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    Tankqull wrote: »
    frost clench is a 30-40% chance on activation to root the target for 3 seconds, no 20+ second stun+2,5sec root, no dmg shield etc.

    if all 3 clenches would allways be activated regardless of the destrostaff choosen then you would have sth comparable to fossilize.

    The root happens all the time, my question was the "deep freeze" is a stun and I wasn't sure if with that it functioned as a double cc like fossilize.
  • Joy_Division
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    Tankqull wrote: »
    Bouvin wrote: »
    Huntler wrote: »
    well one of the answers is nirn getting reduced in strength. However, to your point, I don't actually have to provide an answer. Just because an ability is broken on a weak class doesn't mean I have to provide an answer when discussing the broken ability. For sure magicka DKs need some help, so do some other builds. This thread is about what is clearly a broken ability. If you disagree we can discuss that, you don't leave a broken ability ingame because a class is weak... they are not linked.

    I already was clear why I think its a broken ability, but two forms of CC in an instant ability with no animation is just silly. Also your logic on that its dodgable as why you don't use it goes over my head I guess... Regardless I don't feel to strongly about this subject since there are other bigger fish to fry when it comes to game balance, but I saw the post so I gave my opinion.

    Wait...

    DKs are a weak class?

    ---

    jayz-and-kanye-laughing.png

    You need to change your calendar from 2014 to 2015.

    well their is a significant difference in beeing the most overpowered class ever (2014) and beeing rather balanced (in 2015) where they are by no means a weak class - none the less fossilize is horribly broken currently and needs to be fixed, 2 ccs wich needs to be broken seperatly, providing the overflow shieldbug, at range without CT while all other comparable spells have a casting time is ridiculous.

    Well, that "rather balanced" only applies if you are talking about a stamina DK. That people still someone just mindlessly scream "DKs OP!" is ignorance and quite frankly an indictment on their inability to analyze when considering the state of magicka DKs.

    As for fossilize, I have met people who claim that it is the MOST broken thing about PVP which is completely ridiculous. IMHO, I have a hard time sympathizing with the claim that a "root" is a form of CC that needs to be broken. It really doesn't because you are still able to attack/defend yourself effectively. I have been fossilized many times since this became something of a FOTM skill for DKs and to be honest I cannot think of a single fight in which I lost or that I died that I'd attribute to being fossilized. When I point this out to people, they invariably claim that the people who are fossilizing are noobs or something to that effect. OK, if in their mind they believe I am that much of a better player than the many I encounter in Cyrodiil, who am I to argue :smiley:

    That being said, I do agree that this skill is particularly stronger than its comparables and the 2 CC effect is, even if overblown, inconsistent with how the game is played and designed. With that also being said, Agony is a WORTHLESS skill that is nothing should be compared to. I could get behind a tweak to the specific morph that roots (it should be noted that the base skill and other morph do not have a double CC), but all the complaining about no cast time and its range and whatever just sounds like whining to me.

    Now once ZoS is done nerfing the skill to the ground and nobody uses it, I'd rather not see people posting what they deem are clever gifs about overpowered DKs when those DKs, as NBs and sorcs have done in the past, begin in earnest to lobby to be put on par with the relative strength of other classes.
    Edited by Joy_Division on April 30, 2015 2:46PM
  • cozmon3c_ESO
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    Fossilized is out of balance, the comparable abilities, besides fear, have a cast time or a long animation time so there is skillfull counter play. fossilized doesnt have skillful counter play, you cannot block it, you cannot dodge it. to bring fossilize into balance and keep the skill as is with the double cc effect it needs to have a cast time (and dont say you cant cast because i do it all day in pvp just fine). With a say 1 second cast time there is a skillful counter that the oponent can interrupt this ability.

    Nothing is more frustrating then to be insta cc'ed with out being able to avoid it in some way and then taking a crap ton of burst damage. its not balanced in pvp as everything has a counter except fossilize and fear.
    Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
    ~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
    Youtube Channel - Leper
    https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos
  • TheBucket
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    DK is far from weak. They are actually the strongest class against high dodge roller builds
    William Reignes
    Magic Nightblade - Rogue Bomber
    Creator of Thirsty Thief Build (Retired 1.5)
  • Maulkin
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    TheBucket wrote: »
    DK is far from weak. They are actually the strongest class against high dodge roller builds

    Disagree. I think magicka NB is the best dodge-roll buster out there.

    Teleport Strike -> Not dodgeable
    Concealed Weapon - > Not dodgeable

    Mark stops them going invis. TeleStrike + Fear whenever their CC immunity is up.

    Their only downside is that they are the only build without a shield that is useable against weapon damage. Which makes them prone to deaths from stamina burst damage.
    EU | PC | AD
  • ToRelax
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    TheBucket wrote: »
    DK is far from weak. They are actually the strongest class against high dodge roller builds

    Disagree. I think magicka NB is the best dodge-roll buster out there.

    Teleport Strike -> Not dodgeable
    Concealed Weapon - > Not dodgeable

    Mark stops them going invis. TeleStrike + Fear whenever their CC immunity is up.

    Their only downside is that they are the only build without a shield that is useable against weapon damage. Which makes them prone to deaths from stamina burst damage.

    But not as much as DK/Templar magicka builds.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • hammayolettuce
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    Can we keep this thread on topic. It was not created to complain about nirn.. there are 600 other threads for that. I simply want to know why the devs decided it would be a good idea to force you to CC break twice to fully remove the effects from 1 skill that is spammable.
    Snü (Magicka DK) ♥ Thnu (Stamplar) ♥ Pizza for Breakfast (Magplar) ♥ Sparklefingers (Magicka Sorc) ♥
    Bean and Cheese Burrito (Magicka DK) ♥ Snurrito (Stamplar) ♥
    DARFAL COVANT
  • ToRelax
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    Can we keep this thread on topic. It was not created to complain about nirn.. there are 600 other threads for that. I simply want to know why the devs decided it would be a good idea to force you to CC break twice to fully remove the effects from 1 skill that is spammable.

    Then Restraining Prison or Mass Hysteria are OP, too, because you don't even have the option to break the snares and debuff after "breaking out" of the main cc effect?
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • maryriv
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    Just use Immovable and you are immune to it.
  • Maulkin
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    TheBucket wrote: »
    DK is far from weak. They are actually the strongest class against high dodge roller builds

    Disagree. I think magicka NB is the best dodge-roll buster out there.

    Teleport Strike -> Not dodgeable
    Concealed Weapon - > Not dodgeable

    Mark stops them going invis. TeleStrike + Fear whenever their CC immunity is up.

    Their only downside is that they are the only build without a shield that is useable against weapon damage. Which makes them prone to deaths from stamina burst damage.

    But not as much as DK/Templar magicka builds.

    Magicka NB has far superior escape mechani.....scrap that...magicka NB has escapes the others don't. BUT when you get jumped on or when your escape (cloak) has got negated by a Mark or a detect pot then you can be quite a bit more squishy than the other two I believe, especially against stamina builds. The lack of a shield to protect your heal can be quite telling.

    Edited by Maulkin on April 30, 2015 4:11PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • hammayolettuce
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    Can we keep this thread on topic. It was not created to complain about nirn.. there are 600 other threads for that. I simply want to know why the devs decided it would be a good idea to force you to CC break twice to fully remove the effects from 1 skill that is spammable.

    Then Restraining Prison or Mass Hysteria are OP, too, because you don't even have the option to break the snares and debuff after "breaking out" of the main cc effect?

    Mass Hysteria has a hard CC in which you need to break and then are able to move around and fight offensively and defensively. However, Fossilize is a hard CC and then a soft CC in which you are forced to exert more stamina after the CC break of the initial hard CC. No other skill in the game goes through block and drains a stamina pool as much as fossilize does.

    Its seems you are missing the point of discussion here. A heal debuff still allows you to escape or fight with shields up. a soft CC forces you to stand there and either hold block and lose more stamina or go offensive from within the soft CC. However, with fossilize, if you break the initial hard CC and remain within the soft CC until it ends you can be fossilized shortly after and not regain stamina at a fast enough pace to stay alive.

    The main issue here is having to use 2x the stamina of any other skill to fully escape it. As a stamina build this isnt an issue, for a magicka build with a low stamina pool it is.

    As i stated before, instead of having the soft CC after the hard CC, it needs to just be a stamina debuff and reduce stamina regen by X amount for X amount of time.
    Edited by hammayolettuce on April 30, 2015 4:14PM
    Snü (Magicka DK) ♥ Thnu (Stamplar) ♥ Pizza for Breakfast (Magplar) ♥ Sparklefingers (Magicka Sorc) ♥
    Bean and Cheese Burrito (Magicka DK) ♥ Snurrito (Stamplar) ♥
    DARFAL COVANT
  • ToRelax
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    ToRelax wrote: »
    Can we keep this thread on topic. It was not created to complain about nirn.. there are 600 other threads for that. I simply want to know why the devs decided it would be a good idea to force you to CC break twice to fully remove the effects from 1 skill that is spammable.

    Then Restraining Prison or Mass Hysteria are OP, too, because you don't even have the option to break the snares and debuff after "breaking out" of the main cc effect?

    Mass Hysteria has a hard CC in which you need to break and then are able to move around and fight offensively and defensively. However, Fossilize is a hard CC and then a soft CC in which you are forced to exert more stamina after the CC break of the initial hard CC. No other skill in the game goes through block and drains a stamina pool as much as fossilize does.

    Its seems you are missing the point of discussion here. A heal debuff still allows you to escape or fight with shields up. a soft CC forces you to stand there and either hold block and lose more stamina or go offensive from within the soft CC. However, with fossilize, if you break the initial hard CC and remain within the soft CC until it ends you can be fossilized shortly after and not regain stamina at a fast enough pace to stay alive.

    The main issue here is having to use 2x the stamina of any other skill to fully escape it. As a stamina build this isnt an issue, for a magicka build with a low stamina pool it is.

    As i stated before, instead of having the soft CC after the hard CC, it needs to just be a stamina debuff and reduce stamina regen by X amount for X amount of time.

    Mass Hysteria applies a hard cc , as well as a soft cc + debuff when the effect ends, Restraining Prison applies a soft cc and another soft cc when the effect ends.
    If it was true that you need to remove CC always, those would be even more powerful than Fossilize, as they are AoE and you can not break out of snares. Obviously roots are a stronger effect than snares, unless you roll dodge out of them. But like it was already mentioned, you do not have to roll out of roots always, and you will in many cases roll dodge anyway after rbeaking the disorient effect.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • maryriv
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    Bolt escape is a free CC breaker as it negates all snares and slows, that should be nerfed as well.
  • Jauriel
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    Sphinx2318 wrote: »
    Huntler wrote: »
    Sphinx2318 wrote: »
    you can roll dodge fossilize

    I fail to see how that has any real bearing on the point of the OP? Its a double CC with basically no animation time... the no animation time by itself makes it a super powerful ability (at any range) let alone the fact you need 2 different CC break types to remove it (or a break free + purge)... it is extremely ridiculous and while I know magicka DKs feel they are hurting at the moment, this is not the solution.

    1. i dont use fossilize
    2. my point certainly makes sense to the op's point as it is entirely dodgable (exactly the reason i dont use it)
    3. the skill does no damage so nerfing it would negate its purpose entirely (why not just remove the [snip] skill then?)

    skill is working as intended so enough with these nerf DK posts plz. its no worse than fear atm.

    and @Huntler if you are gonna say magicka dk's are hurting atm then go ahead and endorse a nerf then at LEAST provide an example of an "answer". because as a magicka dk im dying to feel viable with the nirnhoned fiasco and the many other issues plaguing my build.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

    I can get behind nerfing DK's more. Every other class has been neutered (except maybe templar) so what makes you exempt?
  • maryriv
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    Jauriel wrote: »
    Sphinx2318 wrote: »
    Huntler wrote: »
    Sphinx2318 wrote: »
    you can roll dodge fossilize

    I fail to see how that has any real bearing on the point of the OP? Its a double CC with basically no animation time... the no animation time by itself makes it a super powerful ability (at any range) let alone the fact you need 2 different CC break types to remove it (or a break free + purge)... it is extremely ridiculous and while I know magicka DKs feel they are hurting at the moment, this is not the solution.

    1. i dont use fossilize
    2. my point certainly makes sense to the op's point as it is entirely dodgable (exactly the reason i dont use it)
    3. the skill does no damage so nerfing it would negate its purpose entirely (why not just remove the [snip] skill then?)

    skill is working as intended so enough with these nerf DK posts plz. its no worse than fear atm.

    and @Huntler if you are gonna say magicka dk's are hurting atm then go ahead and endorse a nerf then at LEAST provide an example of an "answer". because as a magicka dk im dying to feel viable with the nirnhoned fiasco and the many other issues plaguing my build.

    [Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

    I can get behind nerfing DK's more. Every other class has been neutered (except maybe templar) so what makes you exempt?

    As a Sorc, when I see a DK I think free kill :)
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