There should be NO scaling from MAG/STA!
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hehekta✭I think, at least class skills should be no depended from STA/MAG. Every class skill must be usable without damage reduction. As a NB, for example, i want use "Consealed Weapon" in my Stam build. But why this skill do much less damage than the "Surprise Attack"? This is artificial restriction, not the balance and build diversity.
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Resipsa131✭✭✭Isn't that more of a function of lack of morphs than scaling to magicka/stamina? I'm assuming you want concealed weapon for the speed buff? If that's the case leave it on your bar and use another ability to initiate, or use surprise attack and wear 5 pieces of night mother to move around quickly in stealth. In sort you can still accomplish the same things you just have to work around.0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Resipsa131 wrote: »
It had the opposite effect.
With only 5 buttons space is a premium.Resipsa131 wrote: »Isn't that more of a function of lack of morphs than scaling to magicka/stamina? I'm assuming you want concealed weapon for the speed buff? If that's the case leave it on your bar and use another ability to initiate, or use surprise attack and wear 5 pieces of night mother to move around quickly in stealth. In sort you can still accomplish the same things you just have to work around.
I see no reason why damage cannot be based solely on weapon damage and spell damage stats along with the weapon's actual damage rating. The resources would then dictate how much can be cast before running out; allowing for more build diversity. The set gear could be adjusted slightly to accommodate this new paradigm. In regards to other balance issues we really never should have had classes in this game to begin with.:trollin:5 -
hehekta✭Resipsa131 wrote: »Isn't that more of a function of lack of morphs than scaling to magicka/stamina? I'm assuming you want concealed weapon for the speed buff? If that's the case leave it on your bar and use another ability to initiate, or use surprise attack and wear 5 pieces of night mother to move around quickly in stealth. In sort you can still accomplish the
same things you just have to work around.
Not only speed, but stun yet. And what wrong if i want Night Silence AND Concealed Weapon buffs? (I was crying when Dark Stalker stopped stack with NS, but i accept it) Is that too much, really?
I pref hybrid MAG/STAM builds, but now hybrid's are dead. It is so obvious that it makes no sense to explain.
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hehekta✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »The resources would then dictate how much can be cast before running out; allowing for more build diversity.
Brilliant words, i fully agreed.1 -
AngersRevenge✭✭✭They do in advertently pigeon hole you into certain things to be any kind of effective. I would love to be a stealthy spell sword. But to be effective with magic I have to use light armor instead of medium. To be effective with swords I have ot use medium armor instead of light. While it can be done with medium. I wouldn't stand a fighting chance against most encounters unless I was wearing light.
I remember before the game released ZOS said it was going to be a TES game first and an MMO 2nd. Half the reason TES games are so good (IMO) is that you are free to build a character the way you want it and be effective. I knew it wasn't going to be a TES game as soon as they said they was going to implement classes. Oh, well, it's still fun and enjoyable but it's not an Elder Scrolls game. It's an MMO with an Elder Scrolls setting.Edited by AngersRevenge on April 22, 2015 8:02PMA true warrior never reveals his heart. Until the axe rips it from his chest.2 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't know man.....I can see it from both sides of the fence on this. Hybrid builds do exist. They just are always as effective. I feel full heavy armor builds can benefit from a hybrid build. The question is, what would they do if stuff didn't scale with stamina or magicka? DPS would drop dramatically or they would have to make everything stronger. I suppose the latter wouldn't be to bad of an idea, but I prefer how it is now.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »I don't know man.....I can see it from both sides of the fence on this. Hybrid builds do exist. They just are always as effective. I feel full heavy armor builds can benefit from a hybrid build. The question is, what would they do if stuff didn't scale with stamina or magicka? DPS would drop dramatically or they would have to make everything stronger. I suppose the latter wouldn't be to bad of an idea, but I prefer how it is now.
Honestly, I think they could use having damage drop a bit.0 -
Maldrix✭
Scale with your level?deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »The question is, what would they do if stuff didn't scale with stamina or magicka?
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Nutronic✭✭✭AngersRevenge wrote: »I remember before the game released ZOS said it was going to be a TES game first and an MMO 2nd. Half the reason TES games are so good (IMO) is that you are free to build a character the way you want it and be effective. I knew it wasn't going to be a TES game as soon as they said they was going to implement classes. Oh, well, it's still fun and enjoyable but it's not an Elder Scrolls game. It's an MMO with an Elder Scrolls setting.
You must have only played Skyrim then.
From Arena until Oblivion classes were always in the game. It's just as time has gone on, they emphasized them less in favor of the "custom class" option most people were picking.
That being said, judging build diversity by the rule of the single player games is a bit ludicrous; considering you can slaughter whole towns, kill epic beasts and arguably beat the game all before even hitting level 10 in most installments.
I honestly feel that ESO more captures the spirit of Arena, Daggerfall, or Morrowind, then later entries into the series. The fact that you can be a sneaky assassin class who heals through magic is more of the genre breaking goodness that feels like classic ES.
More on topic: This is why I feel that while soft caps forced people to be a bit more diverse in their builds for fear of diminishing returns, their removal and heightening of the damage ceilings offered deeper more rewarding specialization. Granted this comes at the cost of going hybrid and some older build diversity, but it ultimately it will allow for more unique build types in the future once they finish converting sets and other bonuses over.
Managing resources as purely a pool for number of times you can cast a spell or spam an attack puts us right back to stacking health.- It means that getting over 3K spell power/weapon power is no longer possible.
- It means food would actually be worth less than drink.
- It would widen the already significant racial gap between racial passives
- It would also make PVP a bit more boring since people will once again run around with S&S while throwing spells...
I also don't think there needs to be a 3rd resource to add in weapon/spell power due to that unnecessarily complicating things. Instead I'd rather suggest that Weapons and armors get more interesting bonuses to increase viability of hybrid or even cross builds.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a set bonus that trades your current spell power for weapon damage or vice versa?
Wouldn't it be cool if you could use your magicka to avoid/absorb/mitigate damages? [shields already do this]
Wouldn't it be cool having your physical weapon builds augmented by enchantment spells that scale from magicka to enhance your weapon damage?
There are a lot of things they could add in incrementally, and some of them look like they might be coming with the spell crafting system. However I think removing the scaling from your pool is both a huge step back and ultimately lowers build diversity in the long run. I'm saying this as someone who plays a hybrid tank (which I'm doing my job well on, but agree that getting good dps even on solo content has become annoyingly difficult).2 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭If ability power did not scale off the size of your resource pool, there would currently be very little point in actually investing in a pool increase.
Right now, there´s an interesting trade/off:- Spec for regen for better sustain
- Spec for weapon/spell damage to make your abilities hit quite a bit harder
- Spec for max magicka/stamina to make your abilities hit somewhat harder and allow you to use more abilities before running out of resources (good for burst DPS)
The problem is: right now, it´s very easy to get high regen values, making an increase of your resource pool less useful.
I can easily get up to 2100 (unbuffed) magicka regen on my sorcerer. I have more magicka than I know what to do with. My magicka bar doesnt empty when I spam Healing Springs on a group. What possible reason would I have to go for Max Magicka now if it didn´t offer at least somewhat stronger spells?
They´ll have to do something about high regen builds before this change would make any sense. Even then, I don´t think I´d really ever pick *just* larger resource pools over high regen any time soon. You need sustain in your resources for both PvP and PvE, there´s just no way around it.Edited by Valencer on April 23, 2015 1:14PM0 -
AngersRevenge✭✭✭You must have only played Skyrim then.
Actually I have been playing since Morrowind. While they made have said "class" it wasn't really a class. It was only for starting abilities. You could still be any "class" and choose any ability. In ESO a Dragon Knight can't use Piercing Jabs from the Templar. In TES games any "class" can use any ability. So in essence, there was no class.A true warrior never reveals his heart. Until the axe rips it from his chest.1 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Scale with your level?deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »The question is, what would they do if stuff didn't scale with stamina or magicka?
Possibly, I just wonder how the eventual drop of vet levels would further complicate this. After more thought I would be in favor of magicka and stamina being for resources only. Damage would come from weapons, enchants, skill/potion buffs, and passives. This would even give more thought into going for drink or food. It would also alleviate race becoming more of a defining factor than purely aesthetic with some benefits that don't break balance or consistency.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!0 -
Nutronic✭✭✭AngersRevenge wrote: »You must have only played Skyrim then.
Actually I have been playing since Morrowind. While they made have said "class" it wasn't really a class. It was only for starting abilities. You could still be any "class" and choose any ability. In ESO a Dragon Knight can't use Piercing Jabs from the Templar. In TES games any "class" can use any ability. So in essence, there was no class.
Classes in Morrowind + were as much of an RP choice as playing an Orc Sorcerer in ESO. I'm not disputing that it didn't restrict you from abilities or passives, but it automatically selected your major and minor abilities with the intention of defining your play style. It's rather ironic this had the opposite effect desired since it made much more sense to pick skills you wouldn't use too much as major skills and work on other skills instead to have a stronger more well rounded character.
To be perfectly honest, there aren't really any abilities in single ES games (excluding Skyrim) that compare to things like "Wrecking blow" or "Poison shot". Even in Oblivion most abilities unlocked behaved more like passive effects that compared to ESO you just put points into. To be honest, a better game to compare it to would be something like Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard or Oblivion Mobile where you HAD to be a either a class or character and play in a style that was dictated.
All I'm saying is that this game incorporates the key principle of class diversification that defines an ES game. As in you can pick a Knight, but be a spell caster, or vice versa (well, that's debatably viable at the moment).
I also joined in at Morrowind, but I've gone back to look at and enjoy the previous entries because it's important to know where this franchise came from to better predict where it's going.
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