On Destruction Staves: Why a generic white Inferno Staff >> a Master's Lightning Staff

Joy_Division

As we PC users are getting no additional content in the foreseeable future, I think this is the ideal time to raise ZoS's awareness about gameplay issues that are undesirable, yet realistically "fixable" with the limited resources and manpower available at this time as the console release nears. This I think is particularly important as the game has undergone a fundamental revision, "ESO 2.0" as they say. I think ZoS is aware that there are growing pains and stuff that needs to adjusted/balanced/tweaked and it would behoove us all to give them clear and specific feedback to what is not working and why, so that they can go about (hopefully) quickly addressing said issue. In the next week, I will lay out 3 themes on what I think most of us can agree are undesirable and inconsistent game mechanics. I will start with what I think is the easiest to demonstrate and fix: destruction staves.

Problem #1: The Wall of Elements skill is just bad. Very low damage. Small area of effect. Can only have one wall down at a time. Overlaps and does not function if any other wall from another player exists. Not as easy to place as comparable skills that also serve as area DoTs. Outclassed by comparable skills such as Eruption and Liquid Lightning. If there is a list of worst changes from 1.5 to 1.6, Wall of Elements is in the top 3.

Problem #2: The lightning staff and the ice staff are objectively non-competitive with the inferno staff. This has made magicka theorycrafting beyond stale, virtually non-existent. We ALL run inferno staves (and use martial knowledge gear, but that's another topic). This is an indictment of just how bad the staff disparity in that just a month after a huge update "ESO 2.0", there is no more discussion on magicka builds. Things are so bad that when a player completes DSA and is awarded a Master's ice or lightning staff, she is annoyed that it was not inferno. Wouldn't it be more desirable, fun, and interesting if she instead thought, "This is interesting, I'm pretty excited to test the new possibilities using a different element." Seriously, why has the boring status quo been allowed to persist for over a year?

Problem #2 explained in detail:

1. Channeled attacks in this game do not crit, can't be weaved, often don't proc stuff (two notable examples of the top of my head: a DK's molten armaments skill will only effect the last channel tick of a heavy attack and thus render the skill pointless, a target under the effect of siphon spirit will get a small return on the last tick and nothing on the previous ticks), and leave the user vulnerable to attack - in every way is disadvantageous except the rare instance when attacking a target using a specific defense such as roll dodge or reflect (and even then the pulse fired by a completed lightning channel will reflect back to the user I was initially mistaken, the pulse does not get reflected back even though it looks like a projectile). The result of this is a considerable DPS loss that only gets worse as characters progress and have higher modifiers to stuff like critical hit percentage, critical damage multipliers, and more sets/spells that benefit from procs. The poor performance can be demonstrated by my testing of these three staves against some VR10 giants. Note: tests done in neutral conditions: no buffs, no food, no magelight, no nothing except holding down a heavy attack.









And just for fun the best lightning staff in the game:





So even with a disintegration proc, significantly less than the generic no trait white inferno staff. This gap would widen noticeably under actual game conditions when buffs/debuffs are taken into account.

2. The Destructive Touch skill has the same basic function in that a ranged projectile is fired at a target, which takes immediate damage, some damage over time, and suffers the following effect dependent on what element is used:

• Fire: knocked back and stunned. By far the strongest and most desirable.
• Ice: immobilized. Sounds ok and it is, but isn't a target that is stunned also immobilized AND also incapable of fighting back? This says nothing about the possibilities of launching people off cliffs, castle walls, etc. It should be noted the ice projectile is conspicuously slower than the others and easy to avoid.
• lightning: NOTHING. Yep, nothing. If a enemy is near the original target, then that near enemy (and by near, the game means adjacent to) takes some minor damage, but there is still zero status effect inflicted on the original target.

Anyone who wants to use this skill will want a inferno staff.

3. With ESO's embracing of weaving basic attacks with skills coupled with the fact that a "medium" attack weave does at least 50% more damage than a light, using a lightning staff, which is channeled and thus can only use light weaves, is a *huge* DPS loss.

Here is my sorcerer using a basic no trait white inferno staff against a VR10 Giant.



With a generic no trait lightning staff:



Here is my same sorcerer using my legendary master's weapon with the precise trait.



And again because I can't believe that trash white weapon blew my Master's staff away:



How is this state of affairs not considered undesirable or even a problem? I got this staff as a "reward" for doing a weekly...and it is literally outperformed by something none of us would bother looting off a dead mob.

4. The tri-focus passive in the destruction staff tree has the following effects included in heavy attacks depending on what element is used:

• heavy fire attacks deal 15% extra damage
• heavy frost attacks reduce enemy movement speed by 40% for 3.5 seconds
• heavy lightning attacks damage up to 2 nearby enemies, dealing 20% of the damage inflicted on the primary target.

When the game was first designed, maybe heavy attacks were intended to be used often enough where such things might matter. But as of now (and really since at the latest June 2014), 90% of all heavy attacks are done with a "medium" weave and other 10% by those who are desperate need to require resources (and even then, this is typically done with restoration staff users). This means the lighting passive is pointless because it never gets used. Not that it matters anyway because any DPS is going to want the inferno staff as it alone makes her more effective at her role.

******

What is all means. Under zero circumstances will a Dragonknight ever use anything but an inferno staff. This is fine and I suspect by design. Synergy is good and for all the complaints that have been leveled at this class, I find it to be the one that was by far the best and most interestingly designed.

The only circumstance a sorcerer will use a lightning staff is on a PVE "off-bar" that is dedicated to AOE for the disintegration proc. A hypothesis can be made that a PVP sorcerer might use a lightning staff for that disintegration proc. However, this is difficult to sustain because even if the sorcerer was lucky to get that 6% proc, since a potential target must be at low health, that target would have already been dead had the sorcerer used an inferno staff. And this does not even consider the fact that force pulse/crushing shock, the primary spell used by destruction staff users (it is not impulse contrary to what people who dislike "zergs" claim), will also proc disintegrate for an inferno staff user.

The ice staff has no place and no function in PVE. In the back of my mind, I think the developers intended the ice staff to have a role in PvP as snaring players (unlike mobs) does have a useful purpose. In theory this works, but:

• Once again, an inferno staff user can "steal" the ice snare effect almost by accident by using the force pulse/crushing shock spell.
• Dead is a more desirable status effect that slowed and that is best achieved with an inferno staff
• The wall of elements skill is too uncompetitive to slot for simply the purpose of slowing players down because of the high opportunity cost.

Back in 1.5, I did use an ice staff in PvP and even with wall of elements being a good, albeit overrated spell, I had mixed results. For every player I snared, I felt there was one player who had their health near the 20% execute threshold that would be dead had I used an inferno staff. In sum, more cute than effective.

*******

What can (and should) be done. I am of the opinion that a variety of competitive builds / gear is more desirable than a template that is best by consensus. That debate and theorycrafting should be vibrant and active. That the game and economy would be better served to have more viable builds rather than an entire Sanctum raid where the DPS are literally all the same: inferno staff users (with sharpened or precise) wearing four pieces of martial knowledge gear. For destruction staves, I suggest the following:

First I think I should point out what might be the obvious solution is potentially a bad one: following Elder Scrolls lore in which frost drains stamina and lightning drains magicka. The main problem I see with this is that the Force Pulse/Crushing Shock skill, which is already the primary spell magicka users rely on, will become a juggernaut and do nothing to stop inferno staff users from getting the benefits of ice and lightning. I am guessing at one point in development, the ice-stamina and lightning-magicka connections were discussed, tried, and eventually passed over for balance reasons. Instead we got ice-snare and lightning-concussed. Also consider that light attacks can happen very quickly since 1.6 and a "pew pew pew pew pew pew" that completely drains a player's resource will be very frustrating. Perhaps some creative use of these elements to lowering the already very high regeneration rates of players is a step to consider, but that is beyond the scope of this post.

1. Reverse the changes to elemental wall back to 1.5. If a fast tick is desirable, that is fine keep that 1.6 component, but please make the overall DPS of the skill competitive. And remove the restrictions on placement. 1.5 had this right. Walls overlapped when placed on top of each other preventing multiple "stackings" by the same player (i.e. If you kept spamming walls at a single target, that target would only take the damage of a single wall). But walls could be placed on different vectors. There is nothing inherently unbalancing about such a mechanic because a single wall user cannot get multiple walls to hit a single same target. Such a mechanic also would help distinguish this spell from comparable ones like Eruption and Liquid Lightning.

2. A lightning staff user weaving light attacks should do comparable damage to a inferno/ice user weaving "medium" attacks. Simply increasing light attack damage may have undesirable consequences as a light attacks can be spammed very quickly now. I would like to keep the channel as it is an aspect that makes the lightning staff different and there are situations where a channel effect is desirable. This maybe a difficult problem as I don't know if the game engine can distinguish between a regular light attack and a weaved light attack. If it can, then we can just tell the engine to adjust the weaved damage. If it can't, then some creative thinking needs to be done. If that is required, see my proposal under the "tri focus" passive.

3. Adjust the elemental effects of the Destructive Touch skill so that all are desirable, yet in different ways. I propose:

• fire: it is a fine skill as is.
• frost: increase the speed of the projectile and make is so the targets suffers some lesser effect if it is blocked (snare 60% to distinguish it from the many 40% snares in the game and the already possible 40% that comes with generic frost damage that might be applied anyway).
• lighting: the target becomes a conduit for X seconds that damages nearby players for some total amount of damage greater than the minor secondary damage that currently accompanies this skill. I like this for several reasons. Instead of ASKING us to move away from each other in Cyrodiil, this gives us an actual REASON to do just that. It also makes lightning have the most variance in effectiveness: it's pointless to use in a single target, yet the weapon of choices vs. groups. I will add the current definition of "nearby" with this skill is too small; its radius needs to be increased.

These changes keep the current flavor/use of the skill and presents scenarios in which one is not always the best choice. I will want fire for a single target or a hard CC. I will want frost to slow down a mobile target. I will want lightning to attack group blobs.

4. Redesign the tri-focus passive. Nobody uses full heavy attacks for damage (excepting some DK execute builds) or to inflict these minor status effects, so this passive is pointless (as is the "ancient knowledge" skill). I am something of a purist and, despite my tone, I very much like basic attacks and wish they were a bigger part of the game. So let's redesign this passive to make all basic attacks, light, heavy and "medium," to do something with the goal of making inferno, ice, and lightning staves unique and desirable.

• fire: doing more damage is an Elder Scroll staple and is always desirable, so the +15% damage works. Just have it work for all basic attacks.
• frost: the problem (I think) with the current 30% reduce speed effect is redundancy; enemies might become "chilled" (which reduces speed I think) anyway just from getting hit with a frost attack. I suppose a guaranteed 30% snare has merit, but no PvE DPS will use a frost staff and as a PvP player, I will use my inferno staff to get my +15% damage and chill you anyway with the Crushing Shock spell. To keep the original intent and overall them of frost, I would augment the current effect so that every basic attack has a small chance (10%) of inflicting the "deep freeze" effect on a target. Now the frost staff user gets something that cannot be stolen from an inferno staff user.
• lightning: I like the current idea of the conduit effect that hits nearby targets for some damage. It is distinctive from fire in that an inferno staff's damage will be better than lightning in single target situations, whereas lightning is desirable vs. mobs. So let's continue with this theme and apply this effect to all basic attacks. If creative thinking is required to solve the lightning weave "problem," then perhaps the conduit theme can achieve this. On a FULL channeled heavy lightning attack in which the lightning pulse is activated (i.e. a real one, not these fake ones that proc sets like Spawn of Mephala), that pulse should hit the primary target, the nearby targets, and grant the lightning staff user "minor berserk" that does +8% bonus damage to her next attack. This would be interesting in that a lightning staff user will have a completely different type of weave than a frost/inferno user that probably would be worse in some situations yet better in others. Variety is good. It promotes interesting theory crafting, vibrant play, varying builds, and different strategies.

5. Allowed channel attacks to critically hit and proc stuff like normal attacks. I am unaware of any pressing balance or game related reason why these attacks should follow different - and disadvantageous - mechanics from "pew pew pew pew," but it simply adds to the many reasons why players disregard lightning staffs for fire.

There is really no good reason why one element should be so far and away mechanically better that a generic white no trait staff obsoletes every single staff associated with the other elements. It generates a lot off unwanted pressure to conform to "cookie cutter" builds for competitive players and leads to stale gameplay. For a while I used my Master's Lightning staff until I saw I was losing literally *thousands* of damage with every single attack for every second even though I ran the same boring 4 piece martial knowledge template that all the high profile DPS wear (and yes, that really is something that also needs to change). This is an easily identifiable disparity with clear mechanical reasons that can be effortlessly be done away with.

These are simply tweaks to already existing game mechanics that are aimed at leveling the chasm between the grander that is the inferno staff with the dismissiveness with which players view the ice and lightning staves. I don't see why we should have to wait "until the console release dies down" to add some actual variety to theory crafting and gameplay when just a few tweaks to destruction staves. I mean we are not getting ANY new content for months at the earliest. Can we at least have the ability to competitively play the same content over and over and over again without using an inferno staff and wearing four pieces or martial knowledge gear?

Aeowyn

Hear hear! Picked up my first masters weapon: ice destruction staff with precise. I was so excited to use it until I actually tried to kill things with it. All of the points you made above are completely valid. Even trying to do the simple crushing shock weave with an ice staff is slower and clunky. It feels terrible and the destructive touch animation is slow and very easy to dodge. That staff is back stashed on a mule somewhere. I'd rather have 1000 less magicka with a set less fire staff as it's higher DPS and much more responsive to play.

Jules

Very convincing stuff. I always ran inferno staff on my toons but you're right, these are incredibly imbalanced.

Sharee

...and that does not even take into account that a portion of enemy players is significantly vulnerable to fire, but none especially vulnerable to the other elements...

Morvul

Very good post!

xMovingTarget

Gr8 m8

eventide03b14a_ESO

The elements should function like they did in traditional TES games:

• Fire- Damage plus DoT
• Lighting- Damage plus magicka drain
• Frost- Damage plus stamina drain

No idea why they abandoned that model.

WrathOfRegicide

I say get rid of staffs and have destruction skills be used like skyrim's combat, i never liked the idea of using staffs anyways.

Domander

I don't think the channeled attack from the lightning staff can crit, the same with the resto staff. Lightning can debuff the target to do less damage though.

Domander

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The elements should function like they did in traditional TES games:

• Fire- Damage plus DoT
• Lighting- Damage plus magicka drain
• Frost- Damage plus stamina drain

No idea why they abandoned that model.

My guess is that mobs don't have resource pools, just timers.

Nestor

Every time I try to use a Lightening or Ice staff I regret the waste of Tempers. Fire Staff is the only way to roll. But it should not be that way.

mwobey

See, I suspect I'm largely the minority here, but I actually prefer lightning. It does less damage, sure, but with wall of elements and channeled attacks I can end up stunlocking most mobs and bad players -- the channeled attack quickly causes concussion and the wall of elements turns the concussion to off balance, and then the completed channel causes knockdown on the final burst. Just by cycling those two skills with encase, I can generally keep things in the kill zone long enough to get them in execute range.

Obviously this is less useful against players who CC break and get the immunity, but there's definitely a place for lightning staves in my opinion.

Nutronic

Upon further inspection of the skill line... I think Tri-focus says it all. 15% bonus damage just for using the weapon/spells means that nothing else is going to come close to pure single target damage.

If the lighting splash worked by stacking on itself with other lighting AOE abilities it might be a bit more interesting.

Lol, there isn't much to be said about cold. I use it for my NB but she is still leveling. I mostly just use it for the HA slow so I can cast my class skills but so far I don't really depend upon it for DPS, it's more like the defensive choice imo (cold AOE does have a better slow effect than fire, granted the best status effect is death).

Great research though! I support your suggestions, and hope ZOS is looking at this thread. I should mention though that one of the top tanks/healers in my guild (he runs in another guild which regularly holds top 10 on various trial runs) is looking into lighting and CP combinations to maximize AOE dps. I'm very curious to see what he comes up with, but I will send him a link to this thread and maybe he'll make a post.

timidobserver

I guess I don't feel so bad about RNG refusing to give me a master's inferno staff now.

Vil

I am pretty sure ZOS appreciates this very detailed and insightful post. Kudos.

I myself however only use the inferno staff for RP reasons
I would use any of the others should they fit my active character. That's just how much of a moron I am though

Lithium Flower

As a DPS (and Dragonknight) for sure I prefer an inferno staff but on my healer's off-bar where I must have a destruction staff for elemental drain and some dps, I prefer Lightning because of the channel. I need to be able to use heavy attacks to regain magicka; of course the restoration staff on my main bar is much better for this but sometimes I'm on my dps bar and need a quick top-up. Making full heavy attacks with other elements feels awkward.

Disclaimer: I agree with the OP and nothing in this post contradicts the excellent points made above.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Great post and excellent analysis. I also hope ZOS uses this time and focuses what little resources are available for balance/gameplay into small(ish) things like this that will go a long way in making the game more fun. It would help them and the game immensely f they managed a bunch of these little tweaks over the next few months to help alleviate the dearth of new content.

Panda244

You forgot to mention that a DK with a brain will always choose an Inferno staff due to their passives mixing and matching and having a party with every ability the Inferno Staff has.

Can't remember how many times I've proc'd burning off a heavy attack in PvP and it managed to kill the NB after he ran away.

Joy_Division

Panda244 wrote: »

You forgot to mention that a DK with a brain will always choose an Inferno staff due to their passives mixing and matching and having a party with every ability the Inferno Staff has.

Can't remember how many times I've proc'd burning off a heavy attack in PvP and it managed to kill the NB after he ran away.

Joy Division wrote:

"What is all means. Under zero circumstances will a Dragonknight ever use anything but an inferno staff.

I'd like to think I'm thorough

TY peeps for the kind words on the feedback.

ThatHappyCat

Not sure if this is mentioned but Lightning staves do have one advantage: they restore more magicka on completing a heavy attack than either fire or frost staves. Together with the Ancient Power passive this makes it actually quite comparable to Resto staves with Cycle of Life.

As a Healer I use a Lightning staff for my Destro needs for this reason. But yes offensive-wise Fire staves blow both Lightning and Frost out of the water.

Islyn

To @Joy_Division on your OP:
*slow clap*
This is one of the most awesome things I have ever read on this forum. Well said, sir.

(All it needs is /micdrop at the end lol )

byrom101b16_ESO

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The elements should function like they did in traditional TES games:

• Fire- Damage plus DoT
• Lighting- Damage plus magicka drain
• Frost- Damage plus stamina drain

No idea why they abandoned that model.

They should have the following;

Fire - 'as is' damage and weave animation 5% of attack damage (per level of Tri Focus) to Health DoT, 3 seconds
Frost - same damage amount and weave animation as fire 5% of attack damage (per level of Tri Focus) to Stamina DoT, 3 seconds
Lightning - same animation as now, with 5% of attack damage (per level of Tri Focus) to Magicka DoT 3 seconds

In each case the initial level of damage is accompanied by a balanced DoT which scales off the amount - so heavier attacks are rewarded with extra effect the longer they are held down before release, on top of the base damage being higher itself.

To reward FULL heavy attacks - add a 3 second Minor Defile for Fire; Minor Fracture for Frost and Minor Breach for Lightning which are unlocked from the FULL Tri Focus passive.

Jules

Let's just hope they bring lightning and ice up to fire's level of damage to balance rather than nerfing fire.

Thelon

Great theory crafting. You should post a build (if you have already, my bad)

Cody

My problem with staves is that inferno staves offer better effects with their abilities. Inferno staves offer knock backs, while lightning offers concussion and ice offers snares. I also tend to lean toward the fire passives more(esspecially knowing that fire provides critical chance. the other two were so bad that i just forgot them). Fire staves are just better overall, and make using the other two seem foolish.

I prefer lightning to fire. Always have in my ES experience, yet fire staves are so superior to lightning staves that using a lightning stave would gimp me almost as much as using a stamina build in 1.5 would gimp someone.

We have more important issues obviously, but this is something that needs to be kept on the radar.

Cody

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The elements should function like they did in traditional TES games:

• Fire- Damage plus DoT
• Lighting- Damage plus magicka drain
• Frost- Damage plus stamina drain

No idea why they abandoned that model.

agreed. It would have help the infinite resource builds issue a ton if this were the case. I have no idea why ZOS abandoned this model, but they need to put it on and stick with it.

Joy_Division

Thelon wrote: »

Great theory crafting. You should post a build (if you have already, my bad)

TY! Unfortunately, this sort of question leads to the same answer for PVE: Inferno Staff + Valkyn Skoria set, 4 piece martial knowledge, 2 Cyrodiil Light, 2 Torug's Pact. Healer uses Elemental Drain and don't have to worry about sustain. For PvP I still use an Inferno Staff (of course), but prefer a little more sustain than raw damage.

Victus

Domander wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The elements should function like they did in traditional TES games:

• Fire- Damage plus [health drain]
• Lighting- Damage plus magicka drain
• Frost- Damage plus stamina drain

No idea why they abandoned that model.

My guess is that mobs don't have resource pools, just timers.

Good point, and likely correct. Still would be nice to have in PvP?

Morbash

WrathOfRegicide wrote: »

I say get rid of staffs and have destruction skills be used like skyrim's combat, i never liked the idea of using staffs anyways.

But then that gets rid of a potential set piece? Two handed users are already slightly handicapped in this aspect versus players who use S/B or DW.

PKMN12

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

The elements should function like they did in traditional TES games:

• Fire- Damage plus DoT
• Lighting- Damage plus magicka drain
• Frost- Damage plus stamina drain

No idea why they abandoned that model.

first off, um you only played skyrim i am guessing, because that was not true at all in EVERY other TES game. instead, it was:

fire was the medium spell
frost was slower but cost less
Lightning had no time to hit (it hit basically immediate), but cost more.

also, because it would/does not work in an MMO. Everyone would simply use whatever is more helpful at endgame, probably fire for the extra damage in PVE, and the other two for PVP because of drain (POSSIBLY). either way, would still not be balanced really.

Rylana

Yeh, it had always been conventional wisdom that Sorc (disintegration, all the lightning related passives) would synergize with a Lightning staff

I regret completely switching to one. The only reason I havent switched back is because I keep forgetting to.