"The sky is falling!"

AH93

100% agree.
If the player base held ZoS to account for these poor decisions, things would change, but that won't happen.

CombatBeard

This is the point where any item is a potential addition to the crown store. Everything is always more "convenient" when you can acquire it in a few seconds with real money. So take your pick. What "convenience" item would you like next? A stack of any crafting material? All types of armour? Recipe Book? Skill points? 120 champion points? Maxed out character ready for PVP?

Why even play the game?

Ojustaboo

CombatBeard wrote: »

This is the point where any item is a potential addition to the crown store. Everything is always more "convenient" when you can acquire it in a few seconds with real money. So take your pick. What "convenience" item would you like next? A stack of any crafting material? All types of armour? Recipe Book? Skill points? 120 champion points? Maxed out character ready for PVP?

Why even play the game?

Another Lotro example to show I agree.

You used to have to get a group together to do the various Lotro books, people were always happy to help as it was a needed part of the game.

When they dumbed the game down, they made it so that you had a choice, you could still group or select the solo option which would give you a huge boost and make you virtually immortal.

Now if you try to get a group together to do one of the books, no one wants to know "you can do that solo without dying" is the sort of response you will get in chat.

Give people a short cut and few want to take the other route.

Why spend time collecting mats, leveling crafts, hunting in wardrobes for recipes when on the crown store you can buy ready made potions nearly as good as you can make in game.

I just really really hope the rng box doesn't make it to the store

Thymos

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

For as long as I'm having fun with the game, I will stay subbed, because it's the best deal for me. Frankly, I don't care what others think the Crown Store is or may be some day. I don't care whether others are trying to freeload, or throw their money at the game, or do whatever they think benefits them most for whatever reason they may have. Others do not play any role whatsoever in my having fun with the game.

The one thing that aggravates doomsayers the most is people not listening to them and still having their fun regardless. If, by chance, some sort of catastrophe really happens one day, at least those people have had their fun up until then, while the doomsayers have been worried all the time!

My thoughts exactly.

Gyudan

This was all foreseen months ago though and it will keep getting worse.
Maybe there will still be players left to buy add-ons for 10,000 crowns when they get released in 2016.

Khaldar

CombatBeard wrote: »

This is the point where any item is a potential addition to the crown store. Everything is always more "convenient" when you can acquire it in a few seconds with real money. So take your pick. What "convenience" item would you like next? A stack of any crafting material? All types of armour? Recipe Book? Skill points? 120 champion points? Maxed out character ready for PVP?

Why even play the game?

Because some people can't afford to spend $15-$50 on every item in the game? Or because some people don't find it of value to do so. Look around... Any successful game, right now, has a Store. Again, calling this P2W is really a joke. People that I know have spent over $10k on Game of War. That is P2W. At least the people that have been playing ESO since beta can compete and dominate anyone that is throwing money at the crown store.

ZOS isn't doing anything wrong. And people are trying to "sell futures" to win support and incite others with all this "Sky is falling" crap. Pretty soon the rest of us will just stay in game while we leave the forums to the whiners like all the other game boards out there.

Muizer

@OP, If there's anything we can do it's define for ourselves right now where we draw the line and try to reach some concensus on this. As long as we just react, we'll just keep sliding gently down the slippery slope, because at every turn a small shift towards p2w will weighed against the ever increasing time and effort we have invested in our characters and the game in general. Chances that people will spontaneously reach consensus and say this is the proverbial straw are nil. Only way to achieve something like that is to plot that line way ahead of time.

ItsGlaive

Ojustaboo wrote: »

CombatBeard wrote: »

This is the point where any item is a potential addition to the crown store. Everything is always more "convenient" when you can acquire it in a few seconds with real money. So take your pick. What "convenience" item would you like next? A stack of any crafting material? All types of armour? Recipe Book? Skill points? 120 champion points? Maxed out character ready for PVP?

Why even play the game?

Another Lotro example to show I agree.

You used to have to get a group together to do the various Lotro books, people were always happy to help as it was a needed part of the game.

When they dumbed the game down, they made it so that you had a choice, you could still group or select the solo option which would give you a huge boost and make you virtually immortal.

Now if you try to get a group together to do one of the books, no one wants to know "you can do that solo without dying" is the sort of response you will get in chat.

Give people a short cut and few want to take the other route.

Why spend time collecting mats, leveling crafts, hunting in wardrobes for recipes when on the crown store you can buy ready made potions nearly as good as you can make in game.

I just really really hope the rng box doesn't make it to the store

I hate those lockboxes, but honestly it looks like they're selling whatever they can to scrape in the cash (you know, everything other than actual content) so I've got no doubts at all that lockboxes will be coming at some point.

WraithAzraiel

But in all seriousness, I see your point. We'll just have to wait and see. Hopefully the fears and concerns of the community, all sections of it, are taken into consideration rather than the almighty dollar.

EQBallzz

Cazic wrote: »

Is subscribing to ESO Plus considered pay to win, then? The XP bonus we get from that is not much different than buying XP potions.

From the perspective of a person trying to play without a sub I think it probably is even if only in a minor way. The more important point is that it illustrates the fundamental, underlying problem with this B2P/F2P model. Unless the game sticks 100% to strictly fluff/cosmetic items in the store the P2W argument begins and the motives of the devs is put into question. People will argue about the game needing to be funded and others will point out the manner in which the that should happen. The obvious solution that some don't want to accept is the sub model so that the game gets funded and everyone pays the same amount and gets access to everything.

I think B2P can work but it has to be done in a deliberate way to prevent disruption to the game. Disruption could be P2W items or items that interfere with the economy or fluff items that are not appropriate for the game/lore. In a short time frame ESO seems willing to disrupt their game in the name of cash shop sales even if it's just in minor ways. That to me is an indication that it will just get worse over time.

Zathras

AH93 wrote: »

100% agree.
If the player base held ZoS to account for these poor decisions, things would change, but that won't happen.

The player base held ZOS accountable for F2P/B2P rumors long before the actual announcement and transition. Things didn't change. Now, it's full steam ahead. It's far, far too late for anything we say to steer this ship off it's course.

However, if you have suggestions for Crown Store additions, I'm sure they'll listen.

LIQUID741

Probably going to go buy the Leopard so I can pwn some noobs..lol.

As a subscriber, I have nothing to buy with my crowns. I'm happy they are adding items such as respecs, and mounts. The motifs really don't bother me either. However if they would add set gear, or XP potions for CP I would rethink my subscription. XP potions for Vet lvls IMO is a good thing, and I hope to see it happen.

Name changes, Race Changes, and appearance changes need to come to the store as well.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

EQBallzz wrote: »

In a short time frame ESO seems willing to disrupt their game in the name of cash shop sales even if it's just in minor ways. That to me is an indication that it will just get worse over time.

Yep. The real tipping point that made me cancel my sub was the "National Pet Day" system message plastered on my screen on Saturday. I'm not really bothered by the crown store motifs, potions, or food by themselves, but you're right, taken together it is all indicative of their direction, which I don't like. I had hopes for the B2P transition that they would strike a nice balance, but it appears not.

Zathras wrote: »

The player base held ZOS accountable for F2P/B2P rumors long before the actual announcement and transition. Things didn't change. Now, it's full steam ahead. It's far, far too late for anything we say to steer this ship off it's course.

However, if you have suggestions for Crown Store additions, I'm sure they'll listen.

Oh yea I'm sure they love those "I want X in the Crown Store!" threads. I'm guilty of it too though, as a Wamasu mount would be amazing... My approach now is, as lyricist and rapper Sage Francis, said: "I'm gonna ride this horse till it bucks me off, and I'm forced to shoot it down." (translation: until it annoys me so much that I uninstall it)

Didgerion

CombatBeard wrote: »

This is the point where any item is a potential addition to the crown store. Everything is always more "convenient" when you can acquire it in a few seconds with real money. So take your pick. What "convenience" item would you like next? A stack of any crafting material? All types of armour? Recipe Book? Skill points? 120 champion points? Maxed out character ready for PVP?

Why even play the game?

Maybe just to relax after a hard working day?
The crown store is needed for ESO to survive.
And the items in it should be appealing to ESO players so they would be wiling to spend money in it.

There will be pay to win elements in the cash shop (the XP bust potion is the first one but not last), and here is why:
1. ZOS needs new players. But the new players will agree to play this game only if they know that they can catch up with the veteran players.
2. ZOS needs fuel(money) to keep the game running. The underrated items in the crown store will not bring cash to ZOS.

But I don't see a problem if they add play to win elements in the crown store..
The biggest part of 'Win' in ESO is the player's skill, that one you cannot buy - that one you develop by playing many many hours.

And answer it for yourself - What will bring you more satisfaction - biting the crap out of a pumped player in all 'platinum armor set' or a player in a 'rusted armor set'?

BigM

After what they did to us at end of beta and after release to where we were told one thing and they did another was where we all should of seen the writing on the wall. Bad enough they used us loyal players that believed what we were being told and then find out the 1st year was all about getting console and B2P ready. I do understand why so many call this F2P because the store is headed that way.

The real sad part is all the one's that was screaming for F2P and said they wouldn't play until it was NOW is out there wanting this or that in game and they want it NOW! But for some reason they never take the same attitude and yell to have the bugs fixed. We all know MMO's have bugs but the real big one's like the LFG tool for just one has to be, or should be at the top of the list. Sadly I think it is some where on the 1000th+ of the list.

Don't get me wrong I would love the game to succeed, I just don't see it happening with the model they are headed too. Maybe this will just end up being a console game in the end and the PC version will slowly die out. I just hope not!

c0rp

People keep talking about XP pots "not affecting CP gain". Not going to happen. Zos is not going to force someone to make the choice of "chugging a pot for faster level gain and getting no CP gain, OR not chug a pot and level slow as molasses with CP gain". Nope, that wont happen. That means less sales.

What will happen, is XP pots will be craftable in game. Most likely with a rare mat that is not going to be easy to get. With enough time and patience you will acquire said mat though. The other convenient option will be, buy it in the store.

Makkir

There's always a bigger fish. A lot of times that bigger will come to Sage or whoever else and say "We are not happy with how much money we are making, We should be making more. This is what you need to do." And it makes these guys like Sage look like liars. I just read an awesome article (Please ZOS Don't delete it) in regards to why the Star Wars Galaxies NGE changes were made and any player coming from there should read it. It basically reinforces what I stated above. Great read.

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5792-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-the-nge/?p=142029

Ysne58

@Attorneyatlawl you said it far more eloquently than I could.

Morvul

Cazic wrote: »

Is subscribing to ESO Plus considered pay to win, then? The XP bonus we get from that is not much different than buying XP potions.

as someone who currently is ESO plus member: yes absolutely!
it's only 10% bonus, hence a very mild form of pay to win. But it certainly IS p2w...

Makkir

I agree with a lot of the OP statements but I don't think it's as big a deal some are making it out to be. I played ArcheAge from launch until October which basically had a pay to win shop but my experience was ruined over there because of all the hackers so it was hard to assess how to cash shop attributed to my experiences. The hacking was horrific.

I am not too upset about the motifs but when crafting materials are added to the crown store, that's when I will start screaming about the sky falling. Lets just pray it doesn't get to that point.

At any rate, we don't have hackers in this game like ArcheAge did and it plays relatively smooth for me. I enjoy Cyrodiil for my "end game" and as long as I have full queues worth of players with whom to game I will continue shelling money out for ZOS to keep this game going. But I am fully committed to doing whatever I can as a player to keep the rest of you playing this game as well.

I think nerfing gold drop rates (and merchant prices) would be a good step. I mean, people are sitting on boat loads of gold with nothing to buy.

Maybe a gated VR14 dungeon that costs 20k to enter

Didgerion

BigM wrote: »

After what they did to us at end of beta and after release to where we were told one thing and they did another was where we all should of seen the writing on the wall. Bad enough they used us loyal players that believed what we were being told and then find out the 1st year was all about getting console and B2P ready. I do understand why so many call this F2P because the store is headed that way.

The real sad part is all the one's that was screaming for F2P and said they wouldn't play until it was NOW is out there wanting this or that in game and they want it NOW! But for some reason they never take the same attitude and yell to have the bugs fixed. We all know MMO's have bugs but the real big one's like the LFG tool for just one has to be, or should be at the top of the list. Sadly I think it is some where on the 1000th+ of the list.

Don't get me wrong I would love the game to succeed, I just don't see it happening with the model they are headed too. Maybe this will just end up being a console game in the end and the PC version will slowly die out. I just hope not!

No, the real sad part here is that the old players do not understand the effort ZOS put in this game. And in order to be more supportive they are criticizing all ZOS moves that would help the game to survive.
LFG tool? - Let them deal with the financial problems right now. And when it is solved then the LFG tool will be fixed too.
The new players want something - good!! give it to them if that helps to increase the number of players and helps to keep the boat floating.

Joy_Division

ChampionSheWolf wrote: »

Sorry OP, you are missing the point by a large margin especially since you are confusing Buy to Play with Free to Play. Furthermore, in addition to the fact you are missing the point, another major, fundamental point the majority of gamers miss by an incredibly huge margin, it takes money to run these games. As much as many gamers love to believe that MMOs run on happy thoughts and puppy love, they don't. They have bills to pay, salaries to pay, new hardware, training their employees, training new hires, updating software programs, all these things costs. And if there is no money coming in, guess what; there are no new updates that will happen.

As others in this post have clearly and correctly pointed out, it is you that are missing the point and misinterpreting the OP.

Also, we understand that it takes money to run these games...they don't *have* to sell rare purple and gold items you know.

Gyudan

Makkir wrote: »

There's always a bigger fish. A lot of times that bigger will come to Sage or whoever else and say "We are not happy with how much money we are making, We should be making more. This is what you need to do." And it makes these guys like Sage look like liars. I just read an awesome article (Please ZOS Don't delete it) in regards to why the Star Wars Galaxies NGE changes were made and any player coming from there should read it. It basically reinforces what I stated above. Great read.

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5792-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-the-nge/?p=142029

Thanks for the link! Maybe in 10 years we'll see something similar from a former senior ZOS employee, provided everyone hasn't forgotten the mere existence of ESO by then.

BigM

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

BigM wrote: »

After what they did to us at end of beta and after release to where we were told one thing and they did another was where we all should of seen the writing on the wall. Bad enough they used us loyal players that believed what we were being told and then find out the 1st year was all about getting console and B2P ready. I do understand why so many call this F2P because the store is headed that way.

The real sad part is all the one's that was screaming for F2P and said they wouldn't play until it was NOW is out there wanting this or that in game and they want it NOW! But for some reason they never take the same attitude and yell to have the bugs fixed. We all know MMO's have bugs but the real big one's like the LFG tool for just one has to be, or should be at the top of the list. Sadly I think it is some where on the 1000th+ of the list.

Don't get me wrong I would love the game to succeed, I just don't see it happening with the model they are headed too. Maybe this will just end up being a console game in the end and the PC version will slowly die out. I just hope not!

No, the real sad part here is that the old players do not understand the effort ZOS put in this game. And in order to be more supportive they are criticizing all ZOS moves that would help the game to survive.
LFG tool? - Let them deal with the financial problems right now. And when it is solved then the LFG tool will be fixed too.
The new players want something - good!! give it to them if that helps to increase the number of players and helps to keep the boat floating.

You funny, so us old players don't understand what they put into the game? Hate to tell you this but we understood completely because we were being told they were fixing things when they were actually putting all the work into the console version. Nope we understand exactly what we were paying for the day they announced B2P and console release day.

Aneima

ChampionSheWolf wrote: »

Sorry OP, you are missing the point by a large margin especially since you are confusing Buy to Play with Free to Play. Furthermore, in addition to the fact you are missing the point, another major, fundamental point the majority of gamers miss by an incredibly huge margin, it takes money to run these games. As much as many gamers love to believe that MMOs run on happy thoughts and puppy love, they don't. They have bills to pay, salaries to pay, new hardware, training their employees, training new hires, updating software programs, all these things costs. And if there is no money coming in, guess what; there are no new updates that will happen.

The majority of gamers knows that it takes money to run this game. ZOS could have just added more mounts, new pets, appearance options, etc. What they shouldn't have done was add items that people made ingame gold selling. This is all just the beginning and now I understand why they nerfed legendary materials from hirelings now.....cause that's whats coming next in the cash shop.

Cogo

@Attorneyatlawl

Elegant and painfully accurate. I vote you to get ZoS attention about concerns for ESO. Not a single post about concerns is replied too.

Didgerion

BigM wrote: »

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

BigM wrote: »

After what they did to us at end of beta and after release to where we were told one thing and they did another was where we all should of seen the writing on the wall. Bad enough they used us loyal players that believed what we were being told and then find out the 1st year was all about getting console and B2P ready. I do understand why so many call this F2P because the store is headed that way.

The real sad part is all the one's that was screaming for F2P and said they wouldn't play until it was NOW is out there wanting this or that in game and they want it NOW! But for some reason they never take the same attitude and yell to have the bugs fixed. We all know MMO's have bugs but the real big one's like the LFG tool for just one has to be, or should be at the top of the list. Sadly I think it is some where on the 1000th+ of the list.

Don't get me wrong I would love the game to succeed, I just don't see it happening with the model they are headed too. Maybe this will just end up being a console game in the end and the PC version will slowly die out. I just hope not!

No, the real sad part here is that the old players do not understand the effort ZOS put in this game. And in order to be more supportive they are criticizing all ZOS moves that would help the game to survive.
LFG tool? - Let them deal with the financial problems right now. And when it is solved then the LFG tool will be fixed too.
The new players want something - good!! give it to them if that helps to increase the number of players and helps to keep the boat floating.

You funny, so us old players don't understand what they put into the game? Hate to tell you this but we understood completely because we were being told they were fixing things when they were actually putting all the work into the console version. Nope we understand exactly what we were paying for the day they announced B2P and console release day.

As far as I know the console version is adjusted by a different team. Of course the console team might have required some fixes from the PC team in order to make it playable on the consoles too but I doubt that this is what took the majority of dev-time.
I think that the lack of revenue combined with technical problems caused delays on all development fronts. (Firing people and implementing the crown store model increases the development times; Figuring out and fixing the lag problems requires time as well etc etc.)
One think is certain they need more work-force, but don't have the money to afford it. I hope that Cash shop and Console launch will solve this problem.

ZOS_TristanK

Hi, folks. As the original post from this thread was already posted elsewhere on the forums, we are going to go ahead an close this thread. Additionally, there are already several active threads in this topic around the forums, and we'd like to keep your feedback on the Crown Store consolidated. We welcome everyone to continue their discussion in the thread we've linked and thank you for your understanding.