Allow Racial Passives Change, Not Race Itself

Rook_Master

So it was mentioned in ESO Live 15 that race changes are in the works.

"Working on Crown Store systems like barber shop, name change, and race change. They are planned, not ready yet. No date."

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/4015131


From the perspective of a Templar, aside from a few niche builds like Nord for tanking, the optimal choice for magicka builds is Breton, and the optimal choice for stamina builds is Imperial.

That is simply fact. You cannot argue with it.


I guarantee you that if you allow race changes, there will be a HUGE increase in the percentage of Imperials running around.

Hell, there are even people running magicka builds as Imperials, and it is still optimal because they don't have to worry about balancing stats, they just dump all attributes in magicka.


What they really should do, is allow people to change their racial passives without actually changing their character's race. This could be something like you just assume all the passives of an Imperial, without having to change your race. Or, it could be something like where passives are categorized, and you can mix and match as you like.

That way, the population still has a healthy mix of races, and you can still get the bonuses you want.

I know people argue things like "OP is so lazy, just reroll an Imperial." But you know that is not a solution for the average person. Most people don't have time to redo all the Alliance Ranks and Undaunted passives just to be competitive again. However, they will change their main to Imperial if they are allowed, and it will destroy the current distribution of races in this game.

What does everyone think about allowing changing racial passives, without changing the race itself?

Thymos

I would rather it be that you get everything that goes with a race change, that even means cosmetics. If you so desire to have different racial passives, as that is the part that is most game affecting, then you have to get the race look with it. If you want Orc racials, then you must be an ugly Orc too.

I think this option is going to take some work, as the system will need to know what account upgrades you have, like any race any alliance. If you don't have that, then you should only be able to change to one of the 3 of the alliance you are in. If you don't have imperial, then you can't change to an imperial.

Shadesofkin

I'll be the first to admit we'll see an influx of whatever players think is the most optimized, but it makes no sense to let people change passives without changing race. The races are different, no reason not to keep them that way.

Now, that being said, I could think of a few changes that need to happen to some of the less optimal races (cough, argonian, cough), but otherwise...sorry, that's just a bad idea.

ChampionSheWolf

They need to re-balance the racial passives is what they need to do. Currently, as it boils down, too many races are inferior just because their passives have stats that are just plain inferior. Combat health recovery is one of those stats often considered inferior because it just doesn't compare. And the fact imperials get such a huge boon to health and stamina is just silly. No racial passive should grant more than 3% to any one thing, the fact you are seeing 10% or even higher like Dunmer taking a huge chunk out of the negative of vampirism making them one of the ideal races to pick, is just ridiculous.

Kerioko

If this is the case, make all racial passives the same for each race:

+15% training in all weapons and armor
+ All Stats (4%/7%/10%)
+ All Regen (7%/14%/21%)
+ All Skill Cost Reduction and All Resistance Boost (2%/4%/6%)

If paying for race changes causes everyone to switch to breton, redguard, or imperial....so be it, I will be happy being the only Argonian in DC.

What I want is for them to just bring the other races passives up to par with the master races...ie Argonians getting 10% health instead of just 3%, and 6% for both healing done and health received.

TheShadowScout

Eh, the difference in racial effects has always been a part of TES. True, some passives could do with a bit of reworking, some could use a little boost, some could use a little nerf... but in the end, the two really bad ideas are "make all racial passives the same" and "let people choose their own passives".

I like how some races are better at some things then other races. How Nords are adapted to the cold lands of skyrim and Dunmer to the often fiery terrain of morrowind. How Altmer have a edge in sorcery and Orcs an edge in brawling. How Bosmer get all bow-happy and Bretons all spell-happy.
Personally I wish there were more passives to go around, not just for race... like, say, characters with their body shape (including racial modifiers) at the "tall and muscular" side getting strength-related perks, and characters on the "small and slim" side getting "agility" related passives. But I guess that's a bit of dreaming on my part...

And I wouldn't like it when every person could choose the "best" passives for their desired build, min-maxers wet dreams are not my kind of fun...

Alcast

Rook_Master wrote: »

So it was mentioned in ESO Live 15 that race changes are in the works.

"Working on Crown Store systems like barber shop, name change, and race change. They are planned, not ready yet. No date."

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/4015131


From the perspective of a Templar, aside from a few niche builds like Nord for tanking, the optimal choice for magicka builds is Breton, and the optimal choice for stamina builds is Imperial.

That is simply fact. You cannot argue with it.


I guarantee you that if you allow race changes, there will be a HUGE increase in the percentage of Imperials running around.

Hell, there are even people running magicka builds as Imperials, and it is still optimal because they don't have to worry about balancing stats, they just dump all attributes in magicka.


What they really should do, is allow people to change their racial passives without actually changing their character's race. This could be something like you just assume all the passives of an Imperial, without having to change your race. Or, it could be something like where passives are categorized, and you can mix and match as you like.

That way, the population still has a healthy mix of races, and you can still get the bonuses you want.

I know people argue things like "OP is so lazy, just reroll an Imperial." But you know that is not a solution for the average person. Most people don't have time to redo all the Alliance Ranks and Undaunted passives just to be competitive again. However, they will change their main to Imperial if they are allowed, and it will destroy the current distribution of races in this game.

What does everyone think about allowing changing racial passives, without changing the race itself?

Magicka: Dunmer, Altmer or Breton
Stamina: Redguard(PvE/PvP) Imperial(PvP)
Optimal for stam is always Redguard Adrenaline rush OP

and all the other races will face extinction

Stamden

I can't believe their actually going to allow people to change their race. There are like 3 races that shine above the rest.

Atleast from a lore perspective it makes sense, cause every person in Cyrodiil is going to be an Imperial.

ebls_BR

"That is simply fact. You cannot argue with it."

The fact is, people spread things like if they were irrefutable, saying without even doing a test before.

For instance, Bretons are the best Templars for pure healers. I have 2 Bretons (one VR14 and another VR1) Templars and 1 Dunmer Templar (VR14) and I must say, my Dunmer do better than my Breton in several things. Like dps with destro staff / magicka build for instance, facing the same enemy (Bloodspawn, for instance), using the same rotation and the same gear. An Altmer can do better than the Breton on those conditions too.

So it's all about, in what way, for what purpose, in what conditions Bretons Templars are better.

Kahrgan

Race changes will net them more money. Plus.. I would like to see them buff argonian passives

Erock25

I totally agree with changing passives without changing race for the sole fact that it will be more cumbersome for the designers to switch your cosmetics to a new race. How will my Khajit turn into an Altmer? Will I go to the character creator again to redesign his facial features?

MorHawk

ChampionSheWolf wrote: »

They need to re-balance the racial passives is what they need to do. Currently, as it boils down, too many races are inferior just because their passives have stats that are just plain inferior. Combat health recovery is one of those stats often considered inferior because it just doesn't compare. And the fact imperials get such a huge boon to health and stamina is just silly. No racial passive should grant more than 3% to any one thing, the fact you are seeing 10% or even higher like Dunmer taking a huge chunk out of the negative of vampirism making them one of the ideal races to pick, is just ridiculous.

This. Allowing for people to pick and choose really loses the point of them, and if race changes were allowed as things stand it'd kill me. My orc is frigging called Shrek, the race choice is why it's funny. I'd be so tempted to change to Imperial as their racials are unquestionably better for my desired role, but that'd gut my char's identity. Just make the racials more balanced, it wouldn't even be that hard.

Samadhi

Race change is bad enough, but if they are caving in to the min maxers who insist on playing a particular race just for the sake of their stat pools, then ZOS should stick to only complete race changes rather than butcher things further.

Hopefully ZOS makes race change a one-time-per-character item as well in order to ensure the item is only for convenience.

Also, bring back Racial Ultimates if they are catering to people who want to be certain races for certain builds anyway.

Personofsecrets

This is an excellent idea OP.

Let us take into account that some of the passives are bad as a way to balance the racial passive system. If that is the case, then let people pick from pools.

2 good passives like base stats
1 medium passive like regeneration or extra healing done
1 bad passive like frost resist, swimming, or swift

Any chances at passing this idea along @ZOS_GinaBruno

MorHawk

Personofsecrets wrote: »

This is an excellent idea OP.

Let us take into account that some of the passives are bad as a way to balance the racial passive system. If that is the case, then let people pick from pools.

2 good passives like base stats
1 medium passive like regeneration or extra healing done
1 bad passive like frost resist, swimming, or swift

Any chances at passing this idea along @ZOS_GinaBruno

First off, the structure for racials is:
1. free increase in XP for one weapon type
2. stat increase
3. regen/cost reduction
4. flavour passive (frost resist, charge attacks, swimming etc).

Second, allowing people to pick and choose means that everyone would go for stuff like Bosmer's stam regen. The lack on any other significant bonuses on that race means that it's somewhat balanced, but combine that with Imperial max stam bonus and you've got yourself meaty goodness.

Again, the racials just need to be balanced.

SantieClaws

This one was talking to a guildie last night who wanted to change his race from Khajiit.

His reason? He really hates the tail.

So can this one put in a word for him at this point and request an option to surgically remove the tail? That way if there are any other khajiit who suffer from this serious body image issue they can at least keep the fur and the ears and won't have to go through the whole Nordoplasty procedure and end up as a hairless one.

This one really loves her own tail by the way and would never consider changing race or having bits lopped off. What would I chase if they took away the tail?

Rook_Master

MorHawk wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

This is an excellent idea OP.

Let us take into account that some of the passives are bad as a way to balance the racial passive system. If that is the case, then let people pick from pools.

2 good passives like base stats
1 medium passive like regeneration or extra healing done
1 bad passive like frost resist, swimming, or swift

Any chances at passing this idea along @ZOS_GinaBruno

First off, the structure for racials is:
1. free increase in XP for one weapon type
2. stat increase
3. regen/cost reduction
4. flavour passive (frost resist, charge attacks, swimming etc).

Second, allowing people to pick and choose means that everyone would go for stuff like Bosmer's stam regen. The lack on any other significant bonuses on that race means that it's somewhat balanced, but combine that with Imperial max stam bonus and you've got yourself meaty goodness.

Again, the racials just need to be balanced.

The racials will never be as 'balanced' as the imperial unless they start giving every race two flat percentage stat bonuses. Maybe that is what they should do. I think, to be fair, people should be allowed to pick and choose what passives they would like. Most people chose their main's race over a year ago, without any understanding of how this would play out in the end-game.

Now that there have been so many changes, especially to the extreme in 1.6 with the removal of softcaps, I think people deserve to be able to change their passives, without destroying their character's identity.

The alternative is to allow full racial changes and everyone is either:

1. Imperial (Stamina)
2. Breton, Altmer, Dunmer (Magicka)

Maotti

I'm a Nord sorcerer on my main, and so he shall remain even after this stupid racechanger has arrived.

idk

Rook_Master wrote: »

So it was mentioned in ESO Live 15 that race changes are in the works.

"Working on Crown Store systems like barber shop, name change, and race change. They are planned, not ready yet. No date."

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/4015131


From the perspective of a Templar, aside from a few niche builds like Nord for tanking, the optimal choice for magicka builds is Breton, and the optimal choice for stamina builds is Imperial.

That is simply fact. You cannot argue with it

That way, the population still has a healthy mix of races, and you can still get

What does everyone think about allowing changing racial passives, without changing the race itself?

Sorry, had to shorten the long winded original post in the quote as what I removed didn't add anything substantive.

Your argument, as long as it was, is incorrect and makes some assumptions, especially since it is from a limited perspective of a single class. There are several races that work well for various magika builds and stamina builds. It's wh we see plenty of high elves and dunmer and redguard and such running around.

I know for a fact many top players would not make the choices you assume.

Second, it's very much against the history of TES since races have always had some changes.

Edit: Your fact is fiction and an incorrect assumption. Very open to argument.

MorHawk

Rook_Master wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

This is an excellent idea OP.

Let us take into account that some of the passives are bad as a way to balance the racial passive system. If that is the case, then let people pick from pools.

2 good passives like base stats
1 medium passive like regeneration or extra healing done
1 bad passive like frost resist, swimming, or swift

Any chances at passing this idea along @ZOS_GinaBruno

First off, the structure for racials is:
1. free increase in XP for one weapon type
2. stat increase
3. regen/cost reduction
4. flavour passive (frost resist, charge attacks, swimming etc).

Second, allowing people to pick and choose means that everyone would go for stuff like Bosmer's stam regen. The lack on any other significant bonuses on that race means that it's somewhat balanced, but combine that with Imperial max stam bonus and you've got yourself meaty goodness.

Again, the racials just need to be balanced.

The racials will never be as 'balanced' as the imperial unless they start giving every race two flat percentage stat bonuses. Maybe that is what they should do. I think, to be fair, people should be allowed to pick and choose what passives they would like. Most people chose their main's race over a year ago, without any understanding of how this would play out in the end-game.

Now that there have been so many changes, especially to the extreme in 1.6 with the removal of softcaps, I think people deserve to be able to change their passives, without destroying their character's identity.

The alternative is to allow full racial changes and everyone is either:

1. Imperial (Stamina)
2. Breton, Altmer, Dunmer (Magicka)

I did at one point suggest nerfing the Imperial racials, which seemed to me to be the most logical solution given that they're the obvious outliers here, but I got mobbed for it. Heck, change one of them to a regen/cost reduction bonus like basically every single other race and it could arguably be a buff. Either way, they wouldn't stick out like a ruddy sore thumb.

But yeah, I get why you're pushing the 'pick and choose' argument, but again, not all bonuses are equal. Bosmer get a a huge regen, but that's off-set by a pidgy stat bonus. Let people pick them and not only would it become way more unbalanced, but they would no longer be racials. You may as well just drop them in with the world lines or champion system.

idk

I have to agree with morhawk as it seems he is saying it would watter down the game. Racials enhancements are very much elder scrolls.

While Rook is looking at this with limited experience as he himself points out, I think the better way to look at this is buffing a few racial traits as they did with wood elfs in 1.6.

AngryNord

For the umpteenth time: RACES ARE DIFFERENT! It's been in TES lore since Arena!

AngryNord

Samadhi wrote: »

Hopefully ZOS makes race change a one-time-per-character item as well in order to ensure the item is only for convenience.

Ideally it should be a full character reset too - wipe all achievments, quests, levels, skillpoints etc, start at level 1 in the Coldharbour cell

golfer.dub17_ESO

There are several races that work well for various magika builds and stamina builds. It's wh we see plenty of high elves and dunmer and redguard and such running around.

You see so many of them because people don't have the any alliance bonus, or because of the fact your average player hates min-maxing of any form and wants to "play as they want", even if that means being a Heavy-Armor-Nightblade-Redguard-Healer using all white non-set gear.

You look at any build templates done by people who know the game, and you'll see the following:
1. They clearly state the best choices for their build, as well as good but sub-optimal choices. They won't even list anything below that.
2. The choices that they consider the best will always be Imperial/Redguard for Stamina, Altmer/Breton for Magicka, then descending from there.

Anyways. I don't really care much for the whole concept of racials, there's exceptions in every race and you can simply base the passives on some other aspect of the lore (such as birth signs).

Regardless, people wouldn't be begging for race changes if the balance wasn't so terrible, and you CAN balance without removing their 'flavor'.

"IF WE HAD RACE CHANGES, EVERYONE WOULD BE ___".

Doesn't that mentality make the current imbalance obvious?

Rook_Master

If the choices you made a year ago when you chose your racial passives were based on completely different traits from now, would they still have meaning?


Does it ruin your immersion for me to be able to choose the traits I want for my character, regardless of race? All meaning has already been removed for the most part from the original choices people made.

If given the choice, I would probably change my main's race to Imperial, but I would rather change the passives instead and keep the character race the same. Are people really more offended by me changing the passives instead of the actual race of my character? If so, that is mind-boggling.

idk

Golfer dub. Post to long winded to quote so I will just reply.

First, Thank you for supporting my argument that the OP was wrong in that only 2 races are superior, one for stamina and one for magika.

Second, in my more recent addition to this thread, huffing some racials can still be done. They have shown that the passives are not set in stone with 1.6 changes.

With that, I stilll agree with angrynord that the history of differnt passives for the various races in the game are favored. Heck, I rolled a different NB for passives after getting to vet 14 with the first.

Sometimes we need to make a choice. If a choice is to be able to change racial passives is desired and the cost is actually havinh to chsnge the race, will you say no?

Rook_Master

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Heck, I rolled a different NB for passives after getting to vet 14 with the first.

Ahh, that makes a lot of sense. You put all that effort in to reroll and min/max, so screw everyone else, right?

idk

Rook_Master wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Heck, I rolled a different NB for passives after getting to vet 14 with the first.

Ahh, that makes a lot of sense. You put all that effort in to reroll and min/max, so screw everyone else, right?

It does not screw anyone. I fail to see where your anger against me comes from.

Enjoy the game. Roll a new character and see where that brings you. Leveling is much faster than before and one can now get an xp boost.

Heck, one of my guildies has said on occasion that he plans to be in this game for 10 years and llans to enjoy the game. While I may not be around this game 10 years I have worked to explore the game which sometimes means rolling a new character.

idk

Besides Rook, you will soon be sbleto change your race to get the passives you want. I don't see the big deal with the issue you have in your original oppinion posted. Changing race to get the passives is fabulous and the choice to have to change the race to get that is small.

Natjur

If they allow race changes, there will be no Argonians.

If they allow race passive changes (but not the race itself) then there still be a few Argonians.

Either remove all racial passives, or add 'general' ones that all races have.

joshisanonymous

I'd rather it just not be possible to change your race. It's a bit ridiculous. I've never seen that happen in an MMO. Somehow they're going from a design philosophy of making choices matter to suggesting that your "character" is really just some idea of an in game person. It's weird. We'll be able to literally create a new character, with a new race and new name, that gets to potentially start with everything in the game completed. They might as well allow class changes at that point as well.