I can't take it! Argonian is soooo bad compared to other races.

cwp303b14_ESO

I feel like anytime I read a post with someone even remotely defending the Argonian racials that math and gameplay strategy has been thrown out the window.

All races have some sort of main stat or regen bonus and now that softcaps have been removed even regen can make a huge difference and open up new playstyles. Argonians have none. 3% more HP tacked on to some obscure resistances is so negligible I can't even understand why it is there in the first place.

Now, I assume that there is a formula the devs use to evaluate the weight of the racials but all Argonian racials must have a unique value, due to the nature of the passives, and no matter how I forcibly bash my face into a calculator do not seem to come near to any other race in power.

Amphibious
This racial might be confusing at first and even give the illusion of some sort of power but let's look at it in detail. Swim speed=flavor and it's fine.

The potion aspect has been discussed at length and largely ignored, even in patch notes, and it is terrible. 6% stam, mag, and hp back per potion use. So, what do we have?

Example using achievable stats at end game:
27,000 Magicka = 1620 magicka back from potion use = 72 magicka regen/2 seconds if potion is used on cooldown
20,000 Health = 1200 health back from potion use = 53 health regen/2 seconds if potion is used on cooldown
13,000 Stamina = 780 stamina back from potion use = ~34 stamina regen/2 seconds if potion is used on cooldown

Now, if we assume that an Argonian player is also a guild store tycoon and can bank roll a potion every 45 seconds, that is still pretty pitiful. If the Argonian is let's say, a "casual player" who does anything besides farm gold or potion mats and spam Q all day every 45 seconds, then it's less than pitiful. We should describe this as ultra pitiful.

Argonian Resistance
3% max health and some poison and disease resistance. Everything about this racial is almost negligible. Could be applied to managing werewolf weakness and basically lethal arrow in pvp and some fights like Engine Guardian in pve but even then you might not even notice.

Using the same health value as above for example:
20,000 Health = 600 more health from passive

Quick to Mend
This racial might even appear to have some value as well so let's dig in.

6% more healing received sounds alright. I mean, that's 2% more than some 3 or 4 set bonus slots that have 4%.

Let's be generous and say that I'm rocking a 2,000 health per 2 second heal over time spell.

2,000 health per 2 = 120 more health every 2 seconds = 0.6% of health pool with 20,000 health or as a tank with 30,000 health 0.4%.

It is also the ONLY racial that is nerfed just by entering cyrodiil.

For reference, Imperials get 10% chance to heal in melee for 1,200 health with the same 20,000 health pool plus the other stat bonuses I won't even argue here.

But I won't just complain about how good imperials are because they are a special race and it's fine with me. They should get those bonuses and be a little better imo. I will however, challenge anyone to prove how any other race even comes close to how bad Argonian racials are.

Shadesofkin

I tend to agree that Argonians need some love, I've got one for pure flavor, but I'm as much a munchkin as I am an RPer and I would like to reliable do both with any race.

Resipsa131

There's some merit to your post I've got an argonian DK as an alternate an just don't spam pots enough to make the passive worth much

Jules

Absolute truth. I'm sorry.

Cody

The argonian potion passive pre 1.6 was what kept them competitive, and now it has been replaced with utter garbage.

No player that cares about being even a LITTLE effective will use an argonian. the racial passives are utterly useless save for the poison and disease resistance, which is nowhere near enough to compensate.

jarydf

I am not a fan of argonians at all and even I feel they are a bit hard done by. A bit.

Roechacca

Argonians are perfect . Love the passives . Thanks ZOS .

cwp303b14_ESO

Roechacca wrote: »

Argonians are perfect . Love the passives . Thanks ZOS .

Can you elaborate as to why you love the passives. Is it personal feelings or is there some actual data I can compare? I'm trying not to be inflammatory. I actually would love to find some reason to love my current Argonian.

Zsymon

I haven't seen a single Argonian in the last month I've been playing. I play on Aldmeri Dominion, but still I see dark elves and nords, bretons and redguards all the time.

If you consider how they boosted the weak Bosmer passives, gave them the best passive in the game, you'd think they care about racial balance, but they specifically worked on Argonian in 1.6.. and made them even weaker, I don't get it.

Stannum

But they swim really fast.. Wish they had immunity to slaughterfish

Avindra

The race does need some love but their potion racial stacks really nicely with the night blade potion passive

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Zsymon wrote: »

I haven't seen a single Argonian in the last month I've been playing. I play on Aldmeri Dominion, but still I see dark elves and nords, bretons and redguards all the time..

Simply a reflection of the hive-mind mentality of many players, they simply follow the diktats of the min/maxers.

cazlonb16_ESO

Avindra wrote: »

The race does need some love but their potion racial stacks really nicely with the night blade potion passive

Stacked nicely. Before 1.6. Now both are near useless, on their own as well as combined.

Jar_Ek

Argonian passives are basically garbage to the point that I don't put any points into them at all (on principle to some extent and for practical reasons ). And just a minor note, the potion passive might combine well with nightblades but compared to the synergy these passives had before it is a pale and weak thing... plus NBs make up only 1/4 of the available classes.

cwp303b14_ESO

My proposal is to change the potion ability from 6% major stats replenished to a buff that increases spell and weapon damage by 4% or 6% for 30 seconds after a potion is consumed.

This would give the Argonians some offense and lessen the gap in damage created by not having any stat or damage racials.

It would also retain some of the original allure of the racial passive from before patch 1.6

Aeternus

I originally made an Argonian nightblade because of the potion synnergy, and I refuse to reroll to a mundane human Imperial or Redguard nightblade that are not nearly as cool looking as my Argonian. These current racial skills are unacceptable ZoS. Argonians are arguably one of the most unique races on Tamriel, so give them some proper racial skills instead of these weak sauce ones!

#ArgonianPride

cwp303b14_ESO

The main thing is that main stat boost racials provide more resource and, because of how damage scales from both stats and the corresponding damage (weapon, spell damage), they also provide more damage.

That means that main stat boosts double dip so to speak.

Races without main stat boosts such as kitties and wood elves are compensated with some component of their racials providing a direct damage increase. They even get regen as well.

Only Nords lack any damage component but do have arguably the strongest defensive bonus that applies to spell and physical damage and they too have a regen bonus.

The potion racial needs to be redesigned and depending on how it is changed, the healing received passive may need to be tweaked.

Please provide feedback on my above proposal. I think it is a sound change and is in line with what Argonians once had.

Cuyler

I made my Argonian into a pair of shoes, they work great now and yea they need a buff.

Cody

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

I haven't seen a single Argonian in the last month I've been playing. I play on Aldmeri Dominion, but still I see dark elves and nords, bretons and redguards all the time..

Simply a reflection of the hive-mind mentality of many players, they simply follow the diktats of the min/maxers.

well if a race has absolutely garbage racial passives, there is no reason to use it:/
I used an argonian at launch, and did so for 3 months until I got sick of the crappy passives. Bretons and the others offer much better racial passives.

If argonians had better racials I would use them.

Cody

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

My proposal is to change the potion ability from 6% major stats replenished to a buff that increases spell and weapon damage by 4% or 6% for 30 seconds after a potion is consumed.

This would give the Argonians some offense and lessen the gap in damage created by not having any stat or damage racials.

It would also retain some of the original allure of the racial passive from before patch 1.6

give them stealth bonuses too. Argonians do specialize in guerrilla warfare after all.

Maybe a small increase to sneak speed, that way argonian players have more freedom with the crafted sets they use? something like that.

Mumnoch

This game has so much "wrong" with it. This is just 1 more wrong. The game needs to finish circling the drain already.

cwp303b14_ESO

Mumnoch wrote: »

This game has so much "wrong" with it. This is just 1 more wrong. The game needs to finish circling the drain already.

As the OP I want to state that I love this game and my Argonian which is why I want balance. I want the devs to tweak problems like these so that a larger part of the ESO community is excited about their characters because I want this game to thrive.

My mains are an Imperial Templar and an Imperial Nightblade but my alt that I play with my wife is an Argonian. It is so disheartening to know how much weaker it is since I have experience with one of, if not THE, best race for passives. I know i'm not the only one and if it was my main that I had sunk a lot of time into I might have quit.

It may seem small to some people but there are many that loose interest because they have come too far with their character to reroll and it feels bad to know that you are investing more into something that will never be as good.

Cody wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

My proposal is to change the potion ability from 6% major stats replenished to a buff that increases spell and weapon damage by 4% or 6% for 30 seconds after a potion is consumed.

This would give the Argonians some offense and lessen the gap in damage created by not having any stat or damage racials.

It would also retain some of the original allure of the racial passive from before patch 1.6

give them stealth bonuses too. Argonians do specialize in guerrilla warfare after all.

Maybe a small increase to sneak speed, that way argonian players have more freedom with the crafted sets they use? something like that.

I think it needs to be something to compensate for the lack of stat bonuses, meaning less resources and damage, and not another utility that may or may not be useful.

Damage and resource are always good.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Have to say I have been play the scrolls since I was 6 and always as an Argonian but the passive suck so bad my inner fanboy can't make up for it at this point

I have all Argonians cause I can't imagine this game with anyother race but we got hosed bad and Nerfed I mean swim speed and potions... Really

Unless Vivic raise the Sea of Dreams again or we need to swim the Olympics swim speed is extra special and a passive that can only proc once ever 45 seconds bacause use of the cool down its a complete waste

cwp303b14_ESO

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Have to say I have been play the scrolls since I was 6 and always as an Argonian but the passive suck so bad my inner fanboy can't make up for it at this point

I have all Argonians cause I can't imagine this game with anyother race but we got hosed bad and Nerfed I mean swim speed and potions... Really

Unless Vivic raise the Sea of Dreams again or we need to swim the Olympics swim speed is extra special and a passive that can only proc once ever 45 seconds bacause use of the cool down its a complete waste

With a buff that lasts for 30 seconds of 4% or 6%(depending on balance) spell and weapon damage, it would close the gap with damage, be unique, and still retain a link to potions. I really think it would be the best, most balanced change and I have put a lot of thought into it ever since the change was discovered on the pts.

There really isn't an argument with the proposed change for balance or flavor but I welcome any other proposals as long as there is sound reasoning and balance behind them.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Removing potions is what needs to happen if you're not popping pots every 45 seconds then you waste and the return is hella weak

cwp303b14_ESO

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Removing potions is what needs to happen if you're not popping pots every 45 seconds then you waste and the return is hella weak

I see your point but I decided it was more likely to get a tweak than a revamp. What would your idea be specifically?

Frough

OP, it would be helpful if you did a side-by-side comparison of regen/stat buffs of each class. Right now, while I believe you, you just indicate numbers for argonians. If we're really talking about balance here, then we should extrapolate out all the other race's passives into health, magika, stamina, regen, spell damage, resistance, etc.

This exercise will either strengthen your argument and get you to a more balanced state or perhaps bring light to existing balance.

Mumnoch

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

Mumnoch wrote: »

This game has so much "wrong" with it. This is just 1 more wrong. The game needs to finish circling the drain already.

As the OP I want to state that I love this game and my Argonian which is why I want balance. I want the devs to tweak problems like these so that a larger part of the ESO community is excited about their characters because I want this game to thrive.

My mains are an Imperial Templar and an Imperial Nightblade but my alt that I play with my wife is an Argonian. It is so disheartening to know how much weaker it is since I have experience with one of, if not THE, best race for passives. I know i'm not the only one and if it was my main that I had sunk a lot of time into I might have quit.

It may seem small to some people but there are many that loose interest because they have come too far with their character to reroll and it feels bad to know that you are investing more into something that will never be as good.

Cody wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

My proposal is to change the potion ability from 6% major stats replenished to a buff that increases spell and weapon damage by 4% or 6% for 30 seconds after a potion is consumed.

This would give the Argonians some offense and lessen the gap in damage created by not having any stat or damage racials.

It would also retain some of the original allure of the racial passive from before patch 1.6

give them stealth bonuses too. Argonians do specialize in guerrilla warfare after all.

Maybe a small increase to sneak speed, that way argonian players have more freedom with the crafted sets they use? something like that.

I think it needs to be something to compensate for the lack of stat bonuses, meaning less resources and damage, and not another utility that may or may not be useful.

Damage and resource are always good.

As a Vet lvled Sorc I can understand. I can also understand that for people like myself this game is circling the drain due to these *** themed (let's be honest and call it what it is, superior race syndrome) race choices, bland ugly armors, no real endgame content, and nothing worth doing except lvling up through content we've already played. I've always been a fanboy of the TES universe. Maybe that's why I'm so pissed at Zenimax for making me dislike that universe.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Well Argonians are credited with being the best gorilla warfare fighters so that means a Sneaking people who hit hard from the shadows and fade just as quick the stealth bonus that Bosmer and Khajiit get is in love with their lore but it's also in line with Argonian lore

Swimming speed could be a default power that all Argonian have for just being Argonian without wasting a point much like Werewolves get stamina regeneration in combat for just being a wolf with zero points into it, it's in their blood Argonian swimming speed is from the tail not at swimming ever makes a difference anywhere ever

I'm fine with Argonian resistance IF they up the max to 6 or 9% other races get 12/10% max magic and Redguard get 12% max stamina so add % that high is not unheard of seeing as Poison and Disease damage is so little of damage done

Dekkameron

Having ropey racial abilities is merely the price of looking the coolest.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Agreed. They replaced a very unique and useful (I would say necessary, for NBs) passive with ones that are much less so. My Argonian NB tank is still very powerful in PvE, but much less so in PvP now. As a stamina build, without Vigor since it is locked away behind months of hardcore PvPing, I now have crap for reliable burst self-heals, whereas previously I could pop big self-heal potions every 15-20 seconds. This has made a huge difference in my survivability in PvP.

That said, I don't think the Argonian nerf was intentional. It was simply a casualty of the buff consolidation ZOS implemented with 1.6. Since potions are now considered buffs just like what abilities confer, and since all buffs now only come in Major/Minor variations whose values don't change (though durations do), Potion Effectiveness was simply rendered obsolete. The issue is that it is very apparent they didn't think through why those passives were important, especially to people that rolled Argonian Nightblades. As a result, the replacement passives don't offer nearly the same utility, and we are left with a downgrade. The passive itself isn't terrible given, but the values are indeed too low, especially since they increased the potion cooldown so much.

I tend to disagree with people who push for Argonians to have stealth-related passives. Yes, it fits with the lore, but there are already two races with stealth-based passives, so why have a third? I would also argue that stealth-based passives have even less utility than potion-based ones, especially for end-game PvE and the majority of PvP where you are engaged in non-stealth combat. I'm a fan of the current increase to healing received, since it is unique amongst racials (and is something I've carefully integrated that into the Argonian NB tank build I've been playing since launch ha); I just think the value needs to be increased and/or also be a bonus to healing dealt.

For those interested, here are a bunch of great threads about the state of Argonian passives (none of which have any replies from ZOS, so it is pretty apparent racial passives aren't a priority):

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151415/1-6-changes-to-potions-and-related-passives-abilities-issues-and-possible-solutions

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154490/change-to-argonians-best-passive-still-not-in-the-notes#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154004/zenimax-please-reconsider-argonian-racial-passives/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154048/how-come-racials-werent-given-a-pass-in-1-6-zos

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153268/my-case-for-race-change-option-in-1-6/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/152091/racial-disparity-with-full-list/p1

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150659/lets-talk-about-argonians-race-change-please/p1

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/30t64a/argonians_huh_good_god_yall_what_are_they_good_for/