Who wins the Three Banners War?

BBSooner

Mikoto wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

We used to debate this a lot back in beta, and a common argument was "EP wins because Tiber was a Nord".

My perspective is that I'd define 'winning' as having achieved the goals of that faction. EP wants autonomy for each province. AD wants an elven empire. DC wants a human empire.

Remind me what actually ended up happening? Oh, a human empire, right. DC wins.

Considering Tiber's rise came at the cost of both an invasion of Morrowind against the Dunmer as well as an invasion of Hammerfell over the Redguards I'd say neither EP nor DC had their interests served.

Septim ends up leading the Colovian Estates (another human empire but directly at war with DC), meaning, as far as the game is concerned, the NPCs essentially win the war. I would be hard pressed to say DC won for him conquering them (or EP for that matter).

More likely all the alliances collapse before Tiber's rise.

Erm, Tiber invaded basically *everything*. Hence the whole 'empire' thing.
Yes, I'm sure we're all aware that none of the alliances won in the end, but the point is that it was DC's *goals* that were met, in the end. I'd even go so far as to assume that the Covenant had been dissolved prior to Cuhlecain making his move out of Falkreath, or the doors of Sancre Tor would have been thrown wide open to receive him.

Even still, Tiber conquering the jarls and kings of Skyrim and High Rock doesn't make any faction a retroactive winner based on what their goals were, considering the nation's they were during his rise were conquered along with everybody else.

Besides, I'd say their goals - more than a human empire - would be that of a Breton emperor. Otherwise before the collapse they would have aligned themselves with the Colovians and attempted to put the imperials back on the throne if the only prerequisite was that "a human" be in charge.

Technically Talos is a breton but it depends on what you believe.

His race is unknown.

He is either a Breton that has convinced every nord he's ever met that he's a nord, or he's just a Nord who was born in Alcaire.

I prefer the explanation that doesn't have him somehow fooling an entire race of people.

Obscure

BBSooner wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

We used to debate this a lot back in beta, and a common argument was "EP wins because Tiber was a Nord".

My perspective is that I'd define 'winning' as having achieved the goals of that faction. EP wants autonomy for each province. AD wants an elven empire. DC wants a human empire.

Remind me what actually ended up happening? Oh, a human empire, right. DC wins.

Considering Tiber's rise came at the cost of both an invasion of Morrowind against the Dunmer as well as an invasion of Hammerfell over the Redguards I'd say neither EP nor DC had their interests served.

Septim ends up leading the Colovian Estates (another human empire but directly at war with DC), meaning, as far as the game is concerned, the NPCs essentially win the war. I would be hard pressed to say DC won for him conquering them (or EP for that matter).

More likely all the alliances collapse before Tiber's rise.

Erm, Tiber invaded basically *everything*. Hence the whole 'empire' thing.
Yes, I'm sure we're all aware that none of the alliances won in the end, but the point is that it was DC's *goals* that were met, in the end. I'd even go so far as to assume that the Covenant had been dissolved prior to Cuhlecain making his move out of Falkreath, or the doors of Sancre Tor would have been thrown wide open to receive him.

Even still, Tiber conquering the jarls and kings of Skyrim and High Rock doesn't make any faction a retroactive winner based on what their goals were, considering the nation's they were during his rise were conquered along with everybody else.

Besides, I'd say their goals - more than a human empire - would be that of a Breton emperor. Otherwise before the collapse they would have aligned themselves with the Colovians and attempted to put the imperials back on the throne if the only prerequisite was that "a human" be in charge.

Technically Talos is a breton but it depends on what you believe.

His race is unknown.

He is either a Breton that has convinced every nord he's ever met that he's a nord, or he's just a Nord who was born in Alcaire.

I prefer the explanation that doesn't have him somehow fooling an entire race of people.

He's none of the mortal races, he's a divine. This was proven when his armour was obtained for a component of the ritual in the Mysterium Xarxes which required the blood of a divine to enter Mankar Cameron's Paradise.

Breton are simply Nord mixed with mer blood, and this racial ancestry is equally irrelevant to Talos who has divine blood. Breton? Nord? Nope. Aedroth, a fact that really really pisses off the elves of Summerset who consider the Aedra sacred ancestors.

MorHawk

Obscure wrote: »

Question:
Who wins the Three Banners War?

Answer:

TALOS

Off-topic, but thankyou for demonstrating that the image tag still works. I assumed it had been removed when the functionality to insert it was removed from the UI.

BBSooner

Obscure wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

We used to debate this a lot back in beta, and a common argument was "EP wins because Tiber was a Nord".

My perspective is that I'd define 'winning' as having achieved the goals of that faction. EP wants autonomy for each province. AD wants an elven empire. DC wants a human empire.

Remind me what actually ended up happening? Oh, a human empire, right. DC wins.

Considering Tiber's rise came at the cost of both an invasion of Morrowind against the Dunmer as well as an invasion of Hammerfell over the Redguards I'd say neither EP nor DC had their interests served.

Septim ends up leading the Colovian Estates (another human empire but directly at war with DC), meaning, as far as the game is concerned, the NPCs essentially win the war. I would be hard pressed to say DC won for him conquering them (or EP for that matter).

More likely all the alliances collapse before Tiber's rise.

Erm, Tiber invaded basically *everything*. Hence the whole 'empire' thing.
Yes, I'm sure we're all aware that none of the alliances won in the end, but the point is that it was DC's *goals* that were met, in the end. I'd even go so far as to assume that the Covenant had been dissolved prior to Cuhlecain making his move out of Falkreath, or the doors of Sancre Tor would have been thrown wide open to receive him.

Even still, Tiber conquering the jarls and kings of Skyrim and High Rock doesn't make any faction a retroactive winner based on what their goals were, considering the nation's they were during his rise were conquered along with everybody else.

Besides, I'd say their goals - more than a human empire - would be that of a Breton emperor. Otherwise before the collapse they would have aligned themselves with the Colovians and attempted to put the imperials back on the throne if the only prerequisite was that "a human" be in charge.

Technically Talos is a breton but it depends on what you believe.

His race is unknown.

He is either a Breton that has convinced every nord he's ever met that he's a nord, or he's just a Nord who was born in Alcaire.

I prefer the explanation that doesn't have him somehow fooling an entire race of people.

He's none of the mortal races, he's a divine. This was proven when his armour was obtained for a component of the ritual in the Mysterium Xarxes which required the blood of a divine to enter Mankar Cameron's Paradise.

Breton are simply Nord mixed with mer blood, and this racial ancestry is equally irrelevant to Talos who has divine blood. Breton? Nord? Nope. Aedroth, a fact that really really pisses off the elves of Summerset who consider the Aedra sacred ancestors.

While it's true he (Tiber) mantled Lorkhan (and depending on the lore you follow he is or at least is 1/3 of the deity Talos), I think that would fulfill the prerequisite for the divine blood, as he could have done the mantling while wearing the armor and left behind a touch of divinity.

Hjalti, though, is where the racial ambiguity lies. And though Bretons may have Nedic ancestors, there is clearly a racial difference. Otherwise the same could be said that Dunmer are really just Altmer since they share the same ancestors.

seanvwolf

The short answer is no one wins.

The nuanced answer is that the Bretons and Nords suffer the least with the collapse of their alliances, at first separately and then together in their own alliance.

The first notable war after the Three Banners War is the Nord-Breton War... After the alliances themselves fall apart, the province of High Rock has the most influence inside and outside of the Imperial Palace. The Bretons dominate the Nords until the arrival of Talos on the scene, who, trained by High Rock and with the aid of the voice, convince the Nords to travel under his banner and turn the tide of the war so that the Bretons become impoverished. It is not until Talos begins to falter under the overwhelming forces of the renewed Imperial Palace that the Bretons are compelled to join forces with Talos and successfully swarm Cyrodiil and claim the Ruby Throne under a new Empire under Talos (Tiber) Septim. This new era would see more Bretons on the throne and influence of power than any other race in Tamriel.

Weberda

Pretty sure Bethesda won since they invented the whole thing and sold a zillion copies of the rpg's that told the story.

ssewallb14_ESO

No one actually knows. The likely answer is they collapsed internally, exiting Cyrodiil to deal with their own problems. ESO shows that many of the races and factions within each alliance didn't get along well to begin with. The events before Talos show the Nords and Bretons allied, the AD "reforming," and Cyrodill (at least Colovia) ruled by "petty kings," so clearly no one came out on top. The logic of the nord-breton alliance was they didn't want another cyrodiilic "empire," so the time period in between probably involved Cyrodiil being a broken mess, until Cuhlecain and Talos came along.

AngryNord

Obscure wrote: »

Question:
Who wins the Three Banners War?

Answer:

TALOS

Didn't someone claim that cloaks have no place in TES lore?

Obscure

AngryNord wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Question:
Who wins the Three Banners War?

Answer:

TALOS

Didn't someone claim that cloaks have no place in TES lore?

They exist only in concept art and cinematic rendering...

ESO examples:

They just never put them in game...because coding cloaks is "haaaaaaaard"...

Ubisoft does it fine in Assassin's Creed...

Obscure

BBSooner wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

We used to debate this a lot back in beta, and a common argument was "EP wins because Tiber was a Nord".

My perspective is that I'd define 'winning' as having achieved the goals of that faction. EP wants autonomy for each province. AD wants an elven empire. DC wants a human empire.

Remind me what actually ended up happening? Oh, a human empire, right. DC wins.

Considering Tiber's rise came at the cost of both an invasion of Morrowind against the Dunmer as well as an invasion of Hammerfell over the Redguards I'd say neither EP nor DC had their interests served.

Septim ends up leading the Colovian Estates (another human empire but directly at war with DC), meaning, as far as the game is concerned, the NPCs essentially win the war. I would be hard pressed to say DC won for him conquering them (or EP for that matter).

More likely all the alliances collapse before Tiber's rise.

Erm, Tiber invaded basically *everything*. Hence the whole 'empire' thing.
Yes, I'm sure we're all aware that none of the alliances won in the end, but the point is that it was DC's *goals* that were met, in the end. I'd even go so far as to assume that the Covenant had been dissolved prior to Cuhlecain making his move out of Falkreath, or the doors of Sancre Tor would have been thrown wide open to receive him.

Even still, Tiber conquering the jarls and kings of Skyrim and High Rock doesn't make any faction a retroactive winner based on what their goals were, considering the nation's they were during his rise were conquered along with everybody else.

Besides, I'd say their goals - more than a human empire - would be that of a Breton emperor. Otherwise before the collapse they would have aligned themselves with the Colovians and attempted to put the imperials back on the throne if the only prerequisite was that "a human" be in charge.

Technically Talos is a breton but it depends on what you believe.

His race is unknown.

He is either a Breton that has convinced every nord he's ever met that he's a nord, or he's just a Nord who was born in Alcaire.

I prefer the explanation that doesn't have him somehow fooling an entire race of people.

He's none of the mortal races, he's a divine. This was proven when his armour was obtained for a component of the ritual in the Mysterium Xarxes which required the blood of a divine to enter Mankar Cameron's Paradise.

Breton are simply Nord mixed with mer blood, and this racial ancestry is equally irrelevant to Talos who has divine blood. Breton? Nord? Nope. Aedroth, a fact that really really pisses off the elves of Summerset who consider the Aedra sacred ancestors.

While it's true he (Tiber) mantled Lorkhan (and depending on the lore you follow he is or at least is 1/3 of the deity Talos), I think that would fulfill the prerequisite for the divine blood, as he could have done the mantling while wearing the armor and left behind a touch of divinity.

Hjalti, though, is where the racial ambiguity lies. And though Bretons may have Nedic ancestors, there is clearly a racial difference. Otherwise the same could be said that Dunmer are really just Altmer since they share the same ancestors.

Which is my point. Nede ancestry to Bretons is as relevant to being Breton as any base ancestry Talos had before he became divine. Just as the Dunmer don't identify as Chimer who did not identify as Altmer who do not identify as Aldmer, neither should Talos identify as anything other than a divine. Sure, he's depicted as a descendant of the men from Atmora, but that doesn't matter to his ascension to an infinite being...or perhaps something that may bake the noodle, maybe he never ascended, and was a divine made flesh all along.

Kingof green

Aldmeri Dominion seems to be the most likely because if you look from a lore prospective point, the dagger fall covenant falls when "High" King Emeric dies, the Pact seems to fall because there to divided and Dark wolfs end up reslaveing the Argornians not so long after the events of Three banner war. But the Dominion, 1000years on are at its greatest extent if you've played Skyrim the Dominion seem to be more power full then the 3rd Imperial Empire. With that all said it's fair to say that the Dominion seems like the winners here.

Kingof green

Dark elf* not dark wolfs, lol my mistake ):)

Makkir

You guys keep talking about Imperials and all I hear is trombones and this:

RedTalon

Technically speaking no one really wins this war has the area devolves into warlords and such, until Talos comes along...technically we are playing the factions before they beocme nothing more then warlords and thugs pluging the imperial lands

Just my two crowns on the faction vs faction in the heart of the map, no one will fully win that one in the end.

We just don't know why yet the various alliances broke up

Enodoc

Kingof green wrote: »

Aldmeri Dominion seems to be the most likely because if you look from a lore prospective point, the dagger fall covenant falls when "High" King Emeric dies, the Pact seems to fall because there to divided and Dark wolfs end up reslaveing the Argornians not so long after the events of Three banner war. But the Dominion, 1000years on are at its greatest extent if you've played Skyrim the Dominion seem to be more power full then the 3rd Imperial Empire. With that all said it's fair to say that the Dominion seems like the winners here.

The Dominion you see in Skyrim is the Third Aldmeri Dominion. The one we have in ESO is the First, and that won't last beyond Ayrenn. By 2E 830, the First Dominion has long since collapsed, as that is the founding year of the Second Dominion.

Enodoc wrote: »

I'm inclined to believe they all collapse some time before 2E 800, and I can't see them being sustainable much beyond the deaths of their respective leaders; Emeric and Ayrenn seem to be integral to the success of DC and AD, with only EP having the potential to outlast them due to their Great Moot not relying on any leader in particular. None of them will win the Three Banners War though.

DschiPeunt

Vunter wrote: »

Someone will come riding a giant robot and conquering all Tamriel.

That will be me riding the engine guardian from Darkshade Caverns

Kingof green

I've never heard of a 2nd or 3rd Aldmeri Dominion, I must have missed a chunk on the lore, so I'll check the wiki when I get a chance. Thanks for the heads up

ConvictedRambo

MorHawk wrote: »

We used to debate this a lot back in beta, and a common argument was "EP wins because Tiber was a Nord".

My perspective is that I'd define 'winning' as having achieved the goals of that faction. EP wants autonomy for each province. AD wants an elven empire. DC wants a human empire.

Remind me what actually ended up happening? Oh, a human empire, right. DC wins.

Sorry man, but DC falls apart. (well, they all do, eventually)


Ebonheart Pact is the most politically unstable but militaristically among the most powerful alliances of Tamrielic history, the three cultures that comprise the Ebonheart Pact shared a great distrust for each other, only holding allegiance to one another because of a common desire to defeat the Empire and preserve their homelands' independence.


AD wants to conquer Tamriel and have Elven dominance.
DC wants to conquer Tamriel and have human dominance.
EP wants to defeat the empire, and maintain their homelands' independence.


Skyrim, Morrowind, Black Marsh maintain their independence, with the exception of Morrowind vs Black Marsh in the distant future, EP is the only one to achieve their goals because they are not trying to take over, simply maintain and make sure AD or DC doesn't take over.

AngryNord

Obscure wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

Question:
Who wins the Three Banners War?

Answer:

TALOS

Didn't someone claim that cloaks have no place in TES lore?

They exist only in concept art and cinematic rendering...

ESO examples:

They just never put them in game...because coding cloaks is "haaaaaaaard"...

Ubisoft does it fine in Assassin's Creed...

Guess someone forgot to tell these Alik'r Warriors: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-npc-Redguard_Woman_02.jpg

mb10

As far as zergs go, I'd say AD will win lmao

Forestd16b14_ESO

The "Dragon Break" wins.

Artjuh90

Obscure wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

Mikoto wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

We used to debate this a lot back in beta, and a common argument was "EP wins because Tiber was a Nord".

My perspective is that I'd define 'winning' as having achieved the goals of that faction. EP wants autonomy for each province. AD wants an elven empire. DC wants a human empire.

Remind me what actually ended up happening? Oh, a human empire, right. DC wins.

Considering Tiber's rise came at the cost of both an invasion of Morrowind against the Dunmer as well as an invasion of Hammerfell over the Redguards I'd say neither EP nor DC had their interests served.

Septim ends up leading the Colovian Estates (another human empire but directly at war with DC), meaning, as far as the game is concerned, the NPCs essentially win the war. I would be hard pressed to say DC won for him conquering them (or EP for that matter).

More likely all the alliances collapse before Tiber's rise.

Erm, Tiber invaded basically *everything*. Hence the whole 'empire' thing.
Yes, I'm sure we're all aware that none of the alliances won in the end, but the point is that it was DC's *goals* that were met, in the end. I'd even go so far as to assume that the Covenant had been dissolved prior to Cuhlecain making his move out of Falkreath, or the doors of Sancre Tor would have been thrown wide open to receive him.

Even still, Tiber conquering the jarls and kings of Skyrim and High Rock doesn't make any faction a retroactive winner based on what their goals were, considering the nation's they were during his rise were conquered along with everybody else.

Besides, I'd say their goals - more than a human empire - would be that of a Breton emperor. Otherwise before the collapse they would have aligned themselves with the Colovians and attempted to put the imperials back on the throne if the only prerequisite was that "a human" be in charge.

Technically Talos is a breton but it depends on what you believe.

His race is unknown.

He is either a Breton that has convinced every nord he's ever met that he's a nord, or he's just a Nord who was born in Alcaire.

I prefer the explanation that doesn't have him somehow fooling an entire race of people.

He's none of the mortal races, he's a divine. This was proven when his armour was obtained for a component of the ritual in the Mysterium Xarxes which required the blood of a divine to enter Mankar Cameron's Paradise.

Breton are simply Nord mixed with mer blood, and this racial ancestry is equally irrelevant to Talos who has divine blood. Breton? Nord? Nope. Aedroth, a fact that really really pisses off the elves of Summerset who consider the Aedra sacred ancestors.

thalmor beg to differ

Lenikus

You could argue that Aldmeri Dominion had the upper hand in most of the war... BUT, as we all know, Talos came up. and *** everyone up and declared himself emperor. then he became a god. Talk about OP.

SlappyThePoptart

The Septim Empire won.
People arguing about whether he was a breton or nord, it doesn't matter. He actually conquered Skyrim first, so the Ebonheart Pact immediately fell. Then "he" took Cyrodiil, ending the war completely. Then Hammerfell, then High Rock... then the Dominion states... wow, he was a jerk.
EDIT/ADDITION:
Talos is a completely different subject... Tiber Septim, and two other aspects of Lorkhan combined to basically form a new version of Lorkhan.

Bossdonut

Whoever balls up and spams steel tornado the most.

Paazhahdrimaak

Imperials..

Thevampirenight

Well, the dragonbreak that was created with the soul burst might have a key role in the birth of Talos the ninth divine.
With Three seperate timelines.
Hjalti Early-Beard was born in Highrock in the daggerfall timeline, the daggerfall convent did not really last most likly after king emerics death like someone said in a post above. He was most likly dragonborn but would never learn the thuum but would manage to take all of tamerial.

The ebenheart timeline, the pact mainly did not win or lose, in that time line, Talos came over here and was trained by the grey beards to use the thuum and was also dragonborn. He would manage to conquer all of tamerial as well.

Well, the ad timeline it existed for a while, and was successful and did not fall, but it did in the other two timelines it did fall, thus, when time was merged all back together, the affects where very damaging to them, the first dominion fell but the second one rose.
The two men so different from each other became one man, merged together by akatosh thus Tiber Septim was born.
He would manged to reunite all of tamerial together. Vivec gave him the Dwemer device because he knew it was needed to help undo the effects of the other timelines. Thus Tiber Septim wanted to most likly undo the damage, caused by the other dragonbreak, but the person that was powering it did not want him to erase people from existance thus it ended up destorying the golem once more. But in the proccess the use of the device, basically undid itself and repaired time, but also Made Talos the god, in the proccess. Confusing, but most likly what happened. Talos is the product of the dragonbreaks, that made him.
Thus he once was two people but became one person, and by becoming one person became one of the greatest emperors to ever live.

americansteel

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well, the dragonbreak that was created with the soul burst might have a key role in the birth of Talos the ninth divine.
With Three seperate timelines.
Hjalti Early-Beard was born in Highrock in the daggerfall timeline, the daggerfall convent did not really last most likly after king emerics death like someone said in a post above. He was most likly dragonborn but would never learn the thuum but would manage to take all of tamerial.

The ebenheart timeline, the pact mainly did not win or lose, in that time line, Talos came over here and was trained by the grey beards to use the thuum and was also dragonborn. He would manage to conquer all of tamerial as well.

Well, the ad timeline it existed for a while, and was successful and did not fall, but it did in the other two timelines it did fall, thus, when time was merged all back together, the affects where very damaging to them, the first dominion fell but the second one rose.
The two men so different from each other became one man, merged together by akatosh thus Tiber Septim was born.
He would manged to reunite all of tamerial together. Vivec gave him the Dwemer device because he knew it was needed to help undo the effects of the other timelines. Thus Tiber Septim wanted to most likly undo the damage, caused by the other dragonbreak, but the person that was powering it did not want him to erase people from existance thus it ended up destorying the golem once more. But in the proccess the use of the device, basically undid itself and repaired time, but also Made Talos the god, in the proccess. Confusing, but most likly what happened. Talos is the product of the dragonbreaks, that made him.
Thus he once was two people but became one person, and by becoming one person became one of the greatest emperors to ever live.

birthplace and race- unkown.
Talos tiber septim what ever we call him or it was and is the shezarrine! IT makes NO sense according to lore for Talos being breton, half mer half man.
shezarrines are avatars of lorkhan cursed by convention to wonder creation. talos reached chim btw.
time (akatosh) made talos then again lorkhan and akatosh are 2 sides of the same coin. talos had to happen!

BullNetch

Tamriel hits rock bottom. All 3 faction leaders are probably assassinated.

A small coalition of man and elves win a short victory against the Worm Cult.

Darien eventually ends up in Atmora with Gabrielle or the Drake of Blades. Darien is revealed to be the illegitimate son/grandson/heir of the last Reman Emperor.

Darien's son or grandson eventually becomes Tiber Septim.

Darien has the prophetic visions similar to Uriel Septim.

When all is at the most crappiest and the bad guys have crushed Tamriel... Talos is gonna show up with an army of big viking dudes and dragon powers.

Mettaricana

Vunter wrote: »

Someone will come riding a giant robot and conquering all Tamriel.

Numidium ahoy