ESO Justice Bug "Syndrome"

AureateRN

I understand the desired tone on the forums is light and fluffy as per a recent contact with a moderator. With that "situation" fresh in mind I have tried to use some dry humor here, which is hard to detect in text, but I am doing my best.. This is just not a light and fluffy subject. It is in regard to troublesome issues (already posted by others on the tech forum with no helpful official and/or technical feedback) and my sincere effort to get an issue addressed that may be driving people away from a game I love and want to see succeed and RETAIN players.

26 March, around 0730 EST it happened again. The Justice System black screen freeze of death, which has never happened to me with any game before, especially not with this relatively new, custom built and well maintained pc, built and maintained by a family member in the pc industry. It has only begun since the release of 1.6._ _ _ _ and the Justice System. Thanks to a suggestion from another person who has the same issue, I have learned how to shut down despite the black freeze without resorting to powering off each time, so the overt damage to my pc has been lowered somewhat, yet I am still unhappy. All I was doing this most recent time was using a normal BANK!

I really thought it was better because I'd played for a few nights with no ESO-pc blackouts, but... nope.

In medical terms, a syndrome is a health condition that cannot be diagnosed by a simple blood or other test, but is identified rather by a clearly defined set of reported and observable symptoms, in other words objective and subjective criteria. That is clearly what we have here with the Justice bug. The many people I've chatted with and seen discussing their experiences since 1.6._ _ _ _ , and the bizarre pc behaviors it causes, share several commonalities, which I will list here. I'm sure I've missed some but these are the basics:


1. They have not had prior issues with their pc's. Many, leaning toward most, have new machines. Some built their own, stating, "It's easy."
2. Their machines do not have syndrome symptoms when engaging in other activities or playing other demanding online games.
3. Many are longtime online gamers; some have played MMORPGs for over two decades. They know their stuff.
4. They did not have a history of problems playing ESO.
5. The issues came on suddenly and immediately after the launch of 1.6/Justice System and have persisted since.
6. Most seem mystified by ZOS's hard-line, intractable stance that the issues are not related to 1.6._ _ _ _ or the Justice System, period, end of discussion.

We had maintenance on Monday. I have played my usual hours (meaning through the night) to do my best to avoid high traffic and "other nuisances" of the B2P system which I dare not mention. High traffic has never forced me to try lowering my settings before, and we shouldn't be forced to have a lesser experience because not enough foresight was put into the design of a new component of the game. It really IS that simple.

I love the mechanics and fun of the Justice system so far. It's challenging and rewarding and a fun new twist, though I do think it's FAR too guard-heavy, which more than one pc expert has told me is the root of the problem for pc's. This worries me because we have yet to add the mercenaries (bounty hunters) stealing from the people now forced to steal to get what they need to progress in the game. I cannot imagine what game play/freezes/black screens/lag is going to be like if the "issue that doesn't exist" isn't fixed first.

I DO hope we aren't going to be forced to wait until June (or later, given how scheduled events can change) for the fix because the developers don't want to put so much work into a fix when it can just be done in June. While that would be cold and callous at least it would be an explanation. Of course this is just conjecture in the absence of any real answers from ZOS. Human nature. At this point any real answer would be better than not knowing. Admitting a mistake is not the end of the world.

As mentioned I do have a person employed in the pc industry who is a big time gamer himself, living in my home who has tried for HOURS to help me with this issue. He has looked at every possible way this issue could be related to my pc, my settings, my two simple addons, both by Garkin through Curse and both 100% safe (it happened with them uninstalled too) and things like drivers for Naga and Nvidia as was suggested at one time, etc. The diagnostics have been exhaustive.

He, who actually got me into these games wayyy back when, is the original Elder Scrolls fan in the family, but he, who also got me into beta testing, is actually putting off coming back to the game until the issue is fixed.

Sorry this got so long, but it's how my mind works. I don't do well at the shallow end of the pool, even when prodded in that direction with severe threats.

One final thing. Please no condescending (talking down to me) responses? (That was some of that dry humor.. being condescending while asking ...you get it.)

I comment because I care!

LtCrunch

This issue is news to me. Sucks that it's going on but it's obviously only effecting a very small subset of players or the forums would be flooded. So don't expect it to be a priority for ZOS.

Elsonso

Can I ask what the bug is and what seems to cause it? I may have missed it in the text, as all I saw was a reference to a black screen. My apologies if I missed it while reading this on my little tablet.

nerevarine1138

I have absolutely no idea what bug you're referring to.

Although to address the one part of your post that I did understand: you are in no way "forced" to steal in order to attain items. Not even a little bit.

Fleshreaper

AureateRN wrote: »

3. Many are longtime online gamers; some have played MMORPGs for over two decades. They know their stuff.

You mean back in 1994, when they used Windows 3.1 O_o (MMO Massive Multi-Player Online)????


Try running some memory scanners. May have to go online and look for them.

nerevarine1138

Fleshreaper wrote: »

AureateRN wrote: »

3. Many are longtime online gamers; some have played MMORPGs for over two decades. They know their stuff.

You mean back in 1994, when they used Windows 3.1 O_o (MMO Massive Multi-Player Online)????

Clearly you never got involved in a heated session of Chip's Challenge Online.

AureateRN

That was quick! Thank you both for responding.

What happens is that since the Justice System was added a good number, actually, of pc players have encountered a problem in which they lag out badly, the game freezes, they get outlandish error messages (such as a case where a person got an error message for spamming chat when they had their chat set to "say"...and I know this because that person was me) and any number of similar issues that vary in degree.

It tends to be worse in cities, it happens without warning, it happens to top of the line pc's running on ultra mode and more basic machines running on lower settings. The things they have in common are those I listed. One of the people who initially reported the issue to the tech forum was told, according to his post, that ZOS blamed it on NVIDIA drivers, but he checked them, trying reverting back to others, etc. and nothing changed. Several possible fixes have been tried by some people who really know pc's, and we've tried to mirror what they did here to no avail. Thought we had it fixed but it just happened again a couple hours ago.

Someone else told me about memory issues related to excessive/persisting footprints from the guards and the sheer number of guards, especially in towns possibly being the problem...it's in the tech forum. I just don't know, and ZOS isn't saying as far as I've seen.

I would imagine they're not wanting to make a big issue of this if they're not admitting it, so it would not surprise me if most posts are shuttled back to the tech forum or...elsewhere. Again, just conjecture. I've seen posts off-site as well, though I go to so many different gaming sites I cannot tell you where it was I saw them.

I really think it's up to ZOS at this point.

Elsonso

Fleshreaper wrote: »

AureateRN wrote: »

3. Many are longtime online gamers; some have played MMORPGs for over two decades. They know their stuff.

You mean back in 1994, when they used Windows 3.1 O_o (MMO Massive Multi-Player Online)????

"Massive" was a lot smaller back then.

Seriously, multiplayer online role playing games existed back in the 1980's and 1990's. Some of them pre-date the internet.

nerevarine1138

AureateRN wrote: »

That was quick! Thank you both for responding.

What happens is that since the Justice System was added a good number, actually, of pc players have encountered a problem in which they lag out badly, the game freezes, they get outlandish error messages (such as a case where a person got an error message for spamming chat when they had their chat set to "say"...and I know this because that person was me) and any number of similar issues that vary in degree.

It tends to be worse in cities, it happens without warning, it happens to top of the line pc's running on ultra mode and more basic machines running on lower settings. The things they have in common are those I listed. One of the people who initially reported the issue to the tech forum was told, according to his post, that ZOS blamed it on NVIDIA drivers, but he checked them, trying reverting back to others, etc. and nothing changed. Several possible fixes have been tried by some people who really know pc's, and we've tried to mirror what they did here to no avail. Thought we had it fixed but it just happened again a couple hours ago.

Someone else told me about memory issues related to excessive/persisting footprints from the guards and the sheer number of guards, especially in towns possibly being the problem...it's in the tech forum. I just don't know, and ZOS isn't saying as far as I've seen.

I would imagine they're not wanting to make a big issue of this if they're not admitting it, so it would not surprise me if most posts are shuttled back to the tech forum or...elsewhere. Again, just conjecture. I've seen posts off-site as well, though I go to so many different gaming sites I cannot tell you where it was I saw them.

I really think it's up to ZOS at this point.

Well, the erroneous "spam" error has happened well before the advent of the Justice System, so I doubt that it's related.

Otherwise, these seem like random problems, and it seems almost impossible to connect all of them (lag, freezing, and random error messages are three separate issues). Instead of trying to draw a connection between these things and the justice system, I'd suggest actually working with support to figure out what the issue is.

And as for ZO "not admitting it," it's because it seems like there's nothing to admit. These issues certainly aren't widespread enough that one could link them to any one specific in-game mechanic, much less a company-wide effort to suppress information.

nerevarine1138

lordrichter wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

AureateRN wrote: »

3. Many are longtime online gamers; some have played MMORPGs for over two decades. They know their stuff.

You mean back in 1994, when they used Windows 3.1 O_o (MMO Massive Multi-Player Online)????

"Massive" was a lot smaller back then.

Seriously, multiplayer online role playing games existed back in the 1980's and 1990's. Some of them pre-date the internet.

Online roleplaying games before the internet? That sounds a little contradictory...

AureateRN

Fleshreaper wrote: »

AureateRN wrote: »

3. Many are longtime online gamers; some have played MMORPGs for over two decades. They know their stuff.

You mean back in 1994, when they used Windows 3.1 O_o (MMO Massive Multi-Player Online)????


Try running some memory scanners. May have to go online and look for them.

Forgive me, I said over instead of almost. The first MMORPG that could legitimately be called "massive" was in the mid to late 1990's I think. I did misspeak. In my defense I was up all night. My bad. And THAT is how easy it is to admit one is wrong! I'm still breathing and everything. *smile* Thanks for the suggestion. If he hasn't done it, I'll have his g/f talk him into it. Oops, tmi. Need sleeeeeep. Thanks again.

Fleshreaper

AureateRN wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

AureateRN wrote: »

3. Many are longtime online gamers; some have played MMORPGs for over two decades. They know their stuff.

You mean back in 1994, when they used Windows 3.1 O_o (MMO Massive Multi-Player Online)????


Try running some memory scanners. May have to go online and look for them.

Forgive me, I said over instead of almost. The first MMORPG that could legitimately be called "massive" was in the mid to late 1990's I think. I did misspeak. In my defense I was up all night. My bad. And THAT is how easy it is to admit one is wrong! I'm still breathing and everything. *smile* Thanks for the suggestion. If he hasn't done it, I'll have his g/f talk him into it. Oops, tmi. Need sleeeeeep. Thanks again.

After the memory scan, try a checkdisk - chkdsk /r from a command prompt. Update video drivers and system drivers. Re-install Directx.

wraith808

It seems that you're relating a problem that you have to one of many systems that were introduced/changed with little correlation. That might be also contributing to the lack of resolution you've gotten about the underlying problem- because you're reporting it in relation to the Justice System, and not just a problem.

Sylvyr

Have you tried rebooting your modem?

Thymos

I had this problem early on after the release of the game. I found out it was that I had a bad module in one of my memory sticks. I removed the bad stick, and the game played fine, even though I was limited to only 4gb of RAM.

I have upgraded back up to 8gb since then, but it did solve the problem.

derpsticks

Interestingly I have had this black screen of death too. I did not think it was eso, but now that you mention it....

I have left my computer on for extended periods of time over night with the game open sitting at the login screen. I will then come back to find all my screens (I have 3) are black and nothing works to revive them. The eso music can still be heard.

Fleshreaper

derpsticks wrote: »

Interestingly I have had this black screen of death too. I did not think it was eso, but now that you mention it....

I have left my computer on for extended periods of time over night with the game open sitting at the login screen. I will then come back to find all my screens (I have 3) are black and nothing works to revive them. The eso music can still be heard.

Might try unplugging two of those and see what happens.

WraithAzraiel

MUDs. MUDs were the first MMO's. Don't care what anybody says.

AureateRN

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

AureateRN wrote: »

That was quick! Thank you both for responding.

What happens is that since the Justice System was added a good number, actually, of pc players have encountered a problem in which they lag out badly, the game freezes, they get outlandish error messages (such as a case where a person got an error message for spamming chat when they had their chat set to "say"...and I know this because that person was me) and any number of similar issues that vary in degree.

It tends to be worse in cities, it happens without warning, it happens to top of the line pc's running on ultra mode and more basic machines running on lower settings. The things they have in common are those I listed. One of the people who initially reported the issue to the tech forum was told, according to his post, that ZOS blamed it on NVIDIA drivers, but he checked them, trying reverting back to others, etc. and nothing changed. Several possible fixes have been tried by some people who really know pc's, and we've tried to mirror what they did here to no avail. Thought we had it fixed but it just happened again a couple hours ago.

Someone else told me about memory issues related to excessive/persisting footprints from the guards and the sheer number of guards, especially in towns possibly being the problem...it's in the tech forum. I just don't know, and ZOS isn't saying as far as I've seen.

I would imagine they're not wanting to make a big issue of this if they're not admitting it, so it would not surprise me if most posts are shuttled back to the tech forum or...elsewhere. Again, just conjecture. I've seen posts off-site as well, though I go to so many different gaming sites I cannot tell you where it was I saw them.

I really think it's up to ZOS at this point.

Well, the erroneous "spam" error has happened well before the advent of the Justice System, so I doubt that it's related.

Otherwise, these seem like random problems, and it seems almost impossible to connect all of them (lag, freezing, and random error messages are three separate issues). Instead of trying to draw a connection between these things and the justice system, I'd suggest actually working with support to figure out what the issue is.

And as for ZO "not admitting it," it's because it seems like there's nothing to admit. These issues certainly aren't widespread enough that one could link them to any one specific in-game mechanic, much less a company-wide effort to suppress information.

I understand you're reading about this issue for the first time (which in part proves part of my theory you find particularly offensive--but we'll get to that later).

I understand I was too long-winded and you likely lost the part about the numbers of people posting on the tech boards and on other sites about the issue. I understand that it's easy to dismiss an issue when it's not affecting you or people you know. I understand it's a natural response to defend a game you enjoy. I understand human nature.

As a scientist I also understand that only in the most rare of instances is anecdotal evidence (someone telling about something) actually evidence at all. However, when we have a significant number of intelligent and reliable persons reporting the same experiences in the same way concentrated at the same places in the same manner and beginning within the same tiny window in time, that is accepted as scientific evidence. That is what we have in this Justice bug situation.

Further, the likelihood of coincidence inducing a significant number of persons to experience a finite set of effects following a readily identifiable causal factor and time frame further confirmed by a universally (within the population) negative prior history of stated effects is statistically improbable. In lay terms that would be "off the charts" and certainly not a matter of "trying to draw a connection". The connection just ...is. It is not a "feeling" or something I "suppose" or "guess". It is cold, rational, objective science.

What motive could I possibly have for wanting to fix a problem that does not exist?

People who posted on the tech forum here and elsewhere told of their tickets simply going unanswered, of forcing the issue with customer service (which is usually absolutely STELLAR here, as in the best!) and still getting no response other than boilerplate (pre-written letters with no personal details basically telling them to buzz off). People made phone call after phone call just to be repeatedly rebuffed. Those with the tenacity to keep pushing got no farther than those who gave up after their first ticket. Some felt something odd was going on. I was not among them, so I cannot speak directly to that issue. I honestly saw no point after so many people had not received answers.

What I DO know beyond any doubt is that the problem persists after my pc was gone over by a person overqualified to do the job, the person who built it and that others report similar experiences. I have no reason not to trust them. They have no money to make by having pc problems.

One little oddity I must point out. Obviously I can't type out all the details of each person's experience, yet you imagined up enough filler on your own to come to a conclusion about me and what you presumed I was doing anyway. Isn't that ironic...the very thing you accused me of doing, only on a more personal level. But that's okay, life is full of learning experiences, otherwise known as mistakes.

I post because I care...not to get numbers on the forum count. (Directed at no one in particular.)

Happy Travels.

nerevarine1138

If you're a scientist, please think more scientifically.

You don't have access to any real data about the numbers, but you're hearing from multiple people in this thread that the problem isn't as widespread as you appear to think it is. And believe me, if it were widespread, the front page would be inundated with threads.

I'm sure the issues you've encountered are frustrating, and I'm not saying you're not encountering them. But you haven't actually referenced a specific problem; you've pointed out three or four completely unrelated errors and tried to draw a tie to the Justice System. As a scientist, you should be well aware that what you've proposed is a hypothesis, but you've offered no proof that would lead anyone to conclude that your hypothesis is correct (or verifiable, for that matter). You've merely offered anecdotes and hypothetical resumes. That's not sufficient in any way.

Ackwalan

With a "custom built and well maintained pc", you are going to have custom and rare problems. There is no way any company can head off the multitude problems there will come up with custom machines.

AlnilamE

AureateRN wrote: »

What happens is that since the Justice System was added a good number, actually, of pc players have encountered a problem in which they lag out badly, the game freezes, they get outlandish error messages (such as a case where a person got an error message for spamming chat when they had their chat set to "say"...and I know this because that person was me) and any number of similar issues that vary in degree.

.

The "too many messages sent to the server" does not mean chat messages. That can be caused by a lag spike where your client is still trying to talk to the server and when the communication resumes the number of backed up messages will cause you to get kicked.


I've had freezes as well, also mainly in towns. I have been able to just close the game and restart, but a friend has had the issue where he needs to reboot the computer.

AureateRN

AlnilamE wrote: »

AureateRN wrote: »

What happens is that since the Justice System was added a good number, actually, of pc players have encountered a problem in which they lag out badly, the game freezes, they get outlandish error messages (such as a case where a person got an error message for spamming chat when they had their chat set to "say"...and I know this because that person was me) and any number of similar issues that vary in degree.

.

The "too many messages sent to the server" does not mean chat messages. That can be caused by a lag spike where your client is still trying to talk to the server and when the communication resumes the number of backed up messages will cause you to get kicked.


I've had freezes as well, also mainly in towns. I have been able to just close the game and restart, but a friend has had the issue where he needs to reboot the computer.

I you. Thanks for the friendly response. This is the kind of thing I was hoping for. Awareness. The kind of "lightbulb!" thing. It's just so freaking bizarre to go from zero issues including beta to....this. My guess is people are just writing it off to all the new people and the new system and waiting it out, but I suspect there's a real problem in there somewhere. Thanks again!

Ysne58

I usually have to reboot my computer when it happens, which is about once a week and only when I'm on the NA server, if that helps narrow anything down for you @AureateRN .

AureateRN

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If you're a scientist, please think more scientifically.

You don't have access to any real data about the numbers, but you're hearing from multiple people in this thread that the problem isn't as widespread as you appear to think it is. And believe me, if it were widespread, the front page would be inundated with threads.

I'm sure the issues you've encountered are frustrating, and I'm not saying you're not encountering them. But you haven't actually referenced a specific problem; you've pointed out three or four completely unrelated errors and tried to draw a tie to the Justice System. As a scientist, you should be well aware that what you've proposed is a hypothesis, but you've offered no proof that would lead anyone to conclude that your hypothesis is correct (or verifiable, for that matter). You've merely offered anecdotes and hypothetical resumes. That's not sufficient in any way.

Forgive me, but I really don't need a lecture on science from you. I've been patient and cordial under the circumstances. I will not be responding to you further. I can put the facts out there but I cannot force anyone to understand.

Congrats on your amazing forum accomplishments. Very impressive.
I've even added to your list with some vote or another. I'm done.

Best Wishes.

wraith808

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If you're a scientist, please think more scientifically.

I don't even think I have to caption it Awesome points all around to point out about the ultimately unscientific and baseless results.

We don't know that it's the justice system. There were several other things included in the 1.6 patch other than the justice system. Therefore, try to elucidate and solve the underlying problem, rather than cherry picking the low hanging fruit.

nerevarine1138

wraith808 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If you're a scientist, please think more scientifically.

I don't even think I have to caption it Awesome points all around to point out about the ultimately unscientific and baseless results.

We don't know that it's the justice system. There were several other things included in the 1.6 patch other than the justice system. Therefore, try to elucidate and solve the underlying problem, rather than cherry picking the low hanging fruit.

Quoting just because we could all use more NDGT.

But the other issue I see here is that nothing the OP is talking about is new. I've heard reports of crashes, freezing, lag spikes, etc. in cities since long before 1.6. There's no reason to believe that new systems have caused or exacerbated these problems.

AureateRN

Thymos wrote: »

I had this problem early on after the release of the game. I found out it was that I had a bad module in one of my memory sticks. I removed the bad stick, and the game played fine, even though I was limited to only 4gb of RAM.

I have upgraded back up to 8gb since then, but it did solve the problem.

I have 8 and had no issues during that period, though in fairness I was playing on a different, less nice pc.
I have more pc than the game makes use of which is frustrating, though I'm not starting yet ANOTHER specs thread.
Even my little one upstairs is fine...except for this issue, starting after 1.6/Justice.

AureateRN

Ackwalan wrote: »

With a "custom built and well maintained pc", you are going to have custom and rare problems. There is no way any company can head off the multitude problems there will come up with custom machines.

Thank you for the good honest laugh out loud before bed.. I needed it!

I shall think of you and downgrade massively to stock next time... absolutely.. like, fer sher man. JUST because of your expert opinion. To heck with the guy who does it for a living. What does HE know?

Best luck in life... I mean it!

wrlifeboil

Haven't had that problem yet.

The only really annoying problem has been the need to /reloadui to get my mouse turns working again and also to sync the character position on the zone/city map. I think a map addon may have had something to do with that one, the coder recently updated the addon, no map sync problems so far.

Looking at the addons on esoui, many popular addons haven't been updated since the last major patch.

desciviib14_ESO

I have encountered this a couple times. Not a lot but 2 or maybe even 3 times since 1.6 In general there are 3 problems I have encountered in the life of ESO thus far; the first 2 have been present though rare for me since the beginning. The first 2 being 1) The inability to swing weapons or use skills or chat window for a minute or more before crash, 2) A sudden crash to desktop. The 3rd however has only happened to me after 1.6 and as mentioned above the screen goes black and I am unable to 'window' out to desktop; my only option is to cntrl,alt,delete for task manager and close task and restart the launcher. I haven't paid any attention to error messages so I dont know what they say. This problem only occurs while on ESO, Im not blaming ZOS or anything but its pretty obvious when something new happens after a recent change that it's related to the change most likely. Problems happen especially often in software changes, that's the way it goes. On the occasions that it did happen I sent a /bug when I logged back on.