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Do YOU want P2W?
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
Nope, that's just life. Some people have more time than others, you have to solve this in real life (like many others have).
I do agree though, grind2win isn't a good thing either (and I've spoken against it).
Time spent in the game shouldn't determine your success. How good you are at it should, which is why many MMOs go the PvE raid/competitive PvP arenas route, which I largely prefer.
Lastly, my opinions aren't facts. I'll make sure to state out when something is an opinion
I cannot be working on a false premise, when I've already proven how XP Boosters give other people significant advantages & help them win.
I am yet to see someone prove otherwise, which I'd very much like to see (except by saying "but, but.. it doesn't help me because I don't play 24/7 with them"), so that we can have a rational discussion instead of back and forth bickering & accusations.
How is it not pay 2 win? Easy, everyone can reach the same CP score, it is not being blocked by paying to reach it. It is only Pay2Win is if the only way to achieve it is through paying. Playing the game without paying you can achieve the same thing.
Average CP/day is 1-2 for players, there are 3600 CPs & no guarantees more won't be added. This means you can reach it in 5-10 years, during which you'll be at severe disadvantage (which keeps exponentially increasing) against everyone using those potions.
Champion System is meant as an infinite hamster wheel, not a leveling process you max out in a week or two.This is the crux of the argument.
Well, it was kind of weak, sorry.
Unless you are the people who play the most hours then everybody else, there will always be someone above you in CP points, regardless of the XP potions or not.
And your argument is weak as well, sorry.
But hey, nice strawman and thanks for specifying how my argument was "weak", very constructive
You missed the point, I said that to show you that this all based on opinions on both sides. You called my argument weak, and that is your opinion, and I consider yours weak as well, and that is my opinion. But this does not negate the fact that you used a poll out of context to try and make a point.
it is fine that you and I have differing opinions of what is pay 2 win and what is not. My issue with you is that you used a poll out of context to make a point in the other thread.
Ehh.. the difference between you & me is that I tell you why what you said is wrong, and you came up with a dysfunctional strawman.
It's ok to have opinions, but arguing 2+2=5 isn't going to help anyone.
Whatever... this argument tires me. Some people can't accept they're wrong (and I know when I recognize one).
Someone else can take the podium now.Edited by DDuke on March 23, 2015 1:48AM0 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not going to bother answering. I feel like many people here have never actually played a P2W game before lol. This......is not one of them. Unless you think your guar mount some how gives you an advantage lol.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »Not going to bother answering. I feel like many people here have never actually played a P2W game before lol. This......is not one of them. Unless you think your guar mount some how gives you an advantage lol.
Well, that's not really what the poll is asking
The poll is asking whether you'd like P2W features in the future.0 -
eisberg✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
Nope, that's just life. Some people have more time than others, you have to solve this in real life (like many others have).
I do agree though, grind2win isn't a good thing either (and I've spoken against it).
Time spent in the game shouldn't determine your success. How good you are at it should, which is why many MMOs go the PvE raid/competitive PvP arenas route, which I largely prefer.
Lastly, my opinions aren't facts. I'll make sure to state out when something is an opinion
I cannot be working on a false premise, when I've already proven how XP Boosters give other people significant advantages & help them win.
I am yet to see someone prove otherwise, which I'd very much like to see (except by saying "but, but.. it doesn't help me because I don't play 24/7 with them"), so that we can have a rational discussion instead of back and forth bickering & accusations.
How is it not pay 2 win? Easy, everyone can reach the same CP score, it is not being blocked by paying to reach it. It is only Pay2Win is if the only way to achieve it is through paying. Playing the game without paying you can achieve the same thing.
Average CP/day is 1-2 for players, there are 3600 CPs & no guarantees more won't be added. This means you can reach it in 5-10 years, during which you'll be at severe disadvantage (which keeps exponentially increasing) against everyone using those potions.
Champion System is meant as an infinite hamster wheel, not a leveling process you max out in a week or two.This is the crux of the argument.
Well, it was kind of weak, sorry.
Unless you are the people who play the most hours then everybody else, there will always be someone above you in CP points, regardless of the XP potions or not.
And your argument is weak as well, sorry.
But hey, nice strawman and thanks for specifying how my argument was "weak", very constructive
You missed the point, I said that to show you that this all based on opinions on both sides. You called my argument weak, and that is your opinion, and I consider yours weak as well, and that is my opinion. But this does not negate the fact that you used a poll out of context to try and make a point.
it is fine that you and I have differing opinions of what is pay 2 win and what is not. My issue with you is that you used a poll out of context to make a point in the other thread.
Ehh.. the difference between you & me is that I tell you why what you said is wrong, and you came up with a dysfunctional strawman.
It's ok to have opinions, but arguing 2+2=5 isn't going to help anyone.
Whatever... this argument tires me. Some people can't accept they're wrong (and I know when I recognize one).
Someone else can take the podium now.
Again, here you are trying to state that your opinion is a fact. It isn't. The only person who can't accept they are wrong, is in fact you. You keep on confusing opinions as facts, and that is where you are wrong. You haven't shown any facts to to prove that your opinion is actually a fact. You gave facts to back up your opinion, but that does not make your opinion as a fact. I as well gave facts to back up my opinion, and that does not make my opinion as a fact.
The only facts there are is people have differing opinions of what P2W is, and that fact is something you are having a hard time grasping.0 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭I can't vote in this poll because it will likely be misunderstood.
Most people here seem to consider just about anything sold for money p2w.
I absolutely do not support p2w but my idea of p2w is much more liberal than a lot of people here. It's being able to buy a direct advantage, than can not be gotten in game.
Exp can be gained in game, therefor I do not see exp pots as p2w (before you start.. yes yes, I understand CP and the advantage of having more than someone else).
Race change, ok.
Anything cosmetic, fine by me (as long as it's doesn't make the game look stupid).
Extra storage, character slots, not p2w.
If they start selling x hour potions that give you a damage/armor/hp/mp/stam/crit/speed boost, then I would be upset, that is p2w.
If they start selling gear powerful gear for money, that is p2w.
Faster horses, p2w.
Forward camps for cash only, p2w.
I've played a bunch of p2w games, seriously obvious p2w games; eso isn't even close.Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I can't vote in this poll because it will likely be misunderstood.
Most people here seem to consider just about anything sold for money p2w.
I absolutely do not support p2w but my idea of p2w is much more liberal than a lot of people here. It's being able to buy a direct advantage, than can not be gotten in game.
Exp can be gained in game, therefor I do not see exp pots as p2w (before you start.. yes yes, I understand CP and the advantage of having more than someone else).
Race change, ok.
Anything cosmetic, fine by me (as long as it's doesn't make the game look stupid).
Extra storage, character slots, not p2w.
If they start selling x hour potions that give you a damage/armor/hp/mp/stam/crit/speed boost, then I would be upset, that is p2w.
If they start selling gear powerful gear for money, that is p2w.
Faster horses, p2w.
Forward camps for cash only, p2w.
I've played a bunch of p2w games, seriously obvious p2w games; eso isn't even close.- -5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
- +4.5% Stamina Regeneration
- +5.1% more Healing Reduction
- +5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
- +9% Physical Critical Strike damage
- +5.9% Armour Penetration
- +1.2% Spell Resistance
- -6.9% DoT damage taken
- -5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
- -5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.
- When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
- 50% reduced Gathering times
- Better items from Treasure Chests
- 15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown
What if armour with these bonuses was sold next year, would it be P2W?
Those are the bonuses someone chugging potions non-stop gains over someone who's not.
It is essentially the very same result as selling gear (in fact, I haven't even seen equally strong bonuses in many F2P/B2P Cash Shop gear).
You pay for X and you end up with the same amount of Power, whether that's gear we're talking about or people using XP pots. Only difference is that this power isn't evident right away (it grows bigger & bigger over the years we're grinding Champion System).
If you consider powerful gear P2W, you have to consider XP Boosters also (as long as they affect CP).
Both the cause ($$$) & the result (power) are the exact same.Edited by DDuke on March 23, 2015 2:25AM2 -
ZOS_ShannonM✭✭✭Hello folks,
As this thread has continued to devolve into personal attacks and insults, we are closing this thread. Please keep our Forum Code of Conduct in mind when posting in the future.
Thank you for understanding.1
This discussion has been closed.