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Do YOU want P2W?
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ItsGlaive✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheRealDoc wrote: »Poll is meaningless as most people on here don't really understand the REAL impact of buying game affecting items.
There's too many people overcompensating over real world, first world problems......
Consider the other side, I work in a hospital, do long hours helping real people in the real world every day. Without some help I CANNOT keep up with the people who obsess about the game or who don't have a job. I'd love to have top gear, but I can't do the hour it requires to grind gold or keep a place in a good guild.
P2W as people insist on calling it would help me be average and yet the masses really think I'd be a threat to their own personal little universes where they are emperor.....
You kind of miss the point though. How will you be keeping up with EXP potions if everyone else is using them too? It'll actually widen the gap between you and them.Allow cross-platform transfers and merges1 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheRealDoc wrote: »Poll is meaningless as most people on here don't really understand the REAL impact of buying game affecting items.
There's too many people overcompensating over real world, first world problems......
Consider the other side, I work in a hospital, do long hours helping real people in the real world every day. Without some help I CANNOT keep up with the people who obsess about the game or who don't have a job. I'd love to have top gear, but I can't do the hour it requires to grind gold or keep a place in a good guild.
P2W as people insist on calling it would help me be average and yet the masses really think I'd be a threat to their own personal little universes where they are emperor.....
It would not help you to keep up, because people with hours to grind/whatever can P2W too.
Besides I fail to see why you should be average in the first place. That you help people in hospital is commendable, but is hardly reason to artifically make your in game results better.Edited by JamilaRaj on March 21, 2015 3:30PM3 -
Nefrast✭✭✭I am casual, I work hard and have less play time than many others. I also would like to do more PVP. Both do not match well because I need to grind like Hell to lessen the dramatic different power levels when it comes to gear and champion points. So from that point of view, I am actually not much against EXP potions right now. Of course, I rather see real battle grounds with many options to configure the match making, thus preventing to match 20 CP characters in green self made against 150 CPs in legendary high end gear.0 -
AlienSlof✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't care either way, as I don't play competitively and wouldn't use such p2w stuff anyway. I play more for the levelling and exploring anyway, endgame is not that interesting.RIP Atherton, my beautiful little gentle friend. I will miss you forever. Without you I am a hollow shell.1 -
eisberg✭✭✭I voted no, but I better not see you try to use this thread to prove a point about specific things that some may or may not consider as pay 2 win.
And DDuke does exactly what I told him not to do, making this very poll invalid, and means nothing. He manipulated everyone to get the results he wants to try and use it for his own purposes.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1657716/#Comment_16577160 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't think many people want P2W. The real issue is the definition of P2W. Everyone sees it differently.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I voted no, but I better not see you try to use this thread to prove a point about specific things that some may or may not consider as pay 2 win.
And DDuke does exactly what I told him not to do, making this very poll invalid, and means nothing. He manipulated everyone to get the results he wants to try and use it for his own purposes.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1657716/#Comment_1657716
Ehh... what? How did I manipulate anyone?
It's a simple poll: do you want P2W or not. If your opinion on P2W depends on what @DDuke says/does, then I feel sorry for you.
I rather base my arguments on reality, than conjure up fictional minorities & majorities wherever convenient (does that sound familiar?), which is why I make polls like these.
I think the answers speak for themselves.0 -
theweakminded✭✭✭I just noticed are the same person who shared these results on another thread. You data sample is skewed, your options are limited (you do not get context for how each person votes), and you are asking at a time of intentional hysteria (caused by people like yourself). You cannot credibly use this data to say anything.
[/quote] And DDuke does exactly what I told him not to do, making this very poll invalid, and means nothing. He manipulated everyone to get the results he wants to try and use it for his own purposes.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1657716/#Comment_1657716
Ehh... what? How did I manipulate anyone?
It's a simple poll: do you want P2W or not. If your opinion on P2W depends on what @DDuke says/does, then I feel sorry for you.
I rather base my arguments on reality, than conjure up fictional minorities & majorities wherever convenient (does that sound familiar?), which is why I make polls like these.
I think the answers speak for themselves.[/quote]
A 'simple poll' says nothing because you did not explain what exactly you were asking. "P2W' is subjective. These polls are in themselves fictional majorities.
Edit: Quotes hate me todayEdited by theweakminded on March 22, 2015 11:54PM0 -
eisberg✭✭✭I voted no, but I better not see you try to use this thread to prove a point about specific things that some may or may not consider as pay 2 win.
And DDuke does exactly what I told him not to do, making this very poll invalid, and means nothing. He manipulated everyone to get the results he wants to try and use it for his own purposes.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1657716/#Comment_1657716
Ehh... what? How did I manipulate anyone?
It's a simple poll: do you want P2W or not. If your opinion on P2W depends on what @DDuke says/does, then I feel sorry for you.
I rather base my arguments on reality, than conjure up fictional minorities & majorities wherever convenient (does that sound familiar?), which is why I make polls like these.
I think the answers speak for themselves.
How did you manipulate anyone? You stated what ones belief of what P2W is doesn't matter, just answer yes or no according to ones own definition. Then you turn around and use those numbers on a subject that is subjective on whether it is pay2win or not to prove your point, when people who answered they do no like p2w on this poll also do not believe the potions are pay2win. You manipulated people to get the results you wanted to for your own use. The poster right below your post here states it best.
Your poll is invalid and cannot be used in any credible fashion.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »I just noticed are the same person who shared these results on another thread. You data sample is skewed, your options are limited (you do not get context for how each person votes), and you are asking at a time of intentional hysteria (caused by people like yourself). You cannot credibly use this data to say anything.And DDuke does exactly what I told him not to do, making this very poll invalid, and means nothing. He manipulated everyone to get the results he wants to try and use it for his own purposes.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1657716/#Comment_1657716Ehh... what? How did I manipulate anyone?
It's a simple poll: do you want P2W or not. If your opinion on P2W depends on what @DDuke says/does, then I feel sorry for you.
I rather base my arguments on reality, than conjure up fictional minorities & majorities wherever convenient (does that sound familiar?), which is why I make polls like these.
I think the answers speak for themselves.
A 'simple poll' says nothing because you did not explain what exactly you were asking. "P2W' is subjective. These polls are in themselves fictional majorities.
Edit: Quotes hate me today
So, what you really would like to say is that you don't like the results? Please don't tell me you were surprised by them.
It does not matter when I make a poll. In politics, mass hysteria/euphoria is often present before polls. In this case, there isn't even any "hysteria" (refers to collective "delusions"). It has been clearly explained how the system works (how long it takes to maximize), how XP boosters factor into this, and how it is P2W.It's a power granting hamster wheel that spins faster the more money you throw at it.
Prove me wrong if you can. If you can't, then atleast try to prove how it is not P2W to gain more power through this "hamster wheel" due to XP Boosters.
You'd be up to an impossible task, since that'd be arguing against facts.
Awaiting your response.
Lastly, P2W is not subjective.
Pay to Win = Pay to Win (literally)
Whether you attribute your victory to $$$ or not holds no sway, since you'll probably be biased & try to egoistically justify it with "skill" or what not. If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.Edited by DDuke on March 23, 2015 12:15AM1 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'll pay for experience potions. They'll help me keep up with the hardcore. I hope those potions have a cooldown, so the hardcare cannot chain-suck them.
I don't imagine TESO will approach the true pay-to-win items you see in a game like Archeage, however. I'd leave if that happened, but it seems vanishingly unlikely.
I'm not too worried about TESO's cash shop. I think we'll be fine.
Edited by Snit on March 23, 2015 12:14AMSnit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
And how did my subscription grant me an advantage over anyone who did not subscribe? The people who did not subscribe did not play the game, and thus no advantage ever existed.
I know, it's hard to understand.0 -
Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
Well, that's the issue, really. Some people define win as any statistical advantage. Others place the bar a bit higher. For me, it's whether free players can, with a reasonable degree of effort, achieve the same result.
Nobody's wrong here, as it's perfectly reasonable to hold different opinions on the issue. ZOS is going to *** some people off regardless, and they'll just have to judge where they think the right balance point is.Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade0 -
theweakminded✭✭✭[/quote] If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
[/quote]
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: TypoEdited by theweakminded on March 23, 2015 12:21AM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
A decent computer is a requirement for even playing the game, after that the differences are mostly in graphics. Good internet connection is a whole another matter, same as your gaming mouse etc.
You can't play tennis without a racket. If your racket is broken, of course your results are less satisfactory.
We are talking about the basic requirements to play the game, not something unavailable to major populace that is on top of those basic requirements, granting you that boost over your opponents. Outside cheating (e.g. doping), those do not exist in competitive environments.
Now, try to argue XP boosters are the basic requirement for playing the game, or better yet, that using them is something available to majority of population.Edited by DDuke on March 23, 2015 12:29AM0 -
eisberg✭✭✭
If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.theweakminded wrote: »
[/quote]
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo[/quote]
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
Nope, that's just life. Some people have more time than others, you have to solve this in real life (like many others have).
I do agree though, grind2win isn't a good thing either (and I've spoken against it).
Time spent in the game shouldn't determine your success. How good you are at it should, which is why many MMOs go the PvE raid/competitive PvP arenas route, which I largely prefer.
Lastly, my opinions aren't facts. I'll make sure to state out when something is an opinion
I cannot be working on a false premise, when I've already proven how XP Boosters give other people significant advantages & help them win.
I am yet to see someone prove otherwise, which I'd very much like to see (except by saying "but, but.. it doesn't help me because I don't play 24/7 with them"), so that we can have a rational discussion instead of back and forth bickering & accusations.Edited by DDuke on March 23, 2015 12:38AM0 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You answered your own question:And how did my subscription grant me an advantage over anyone who did not subscribe? The people who did not subscribe did not play the game, and thus no advantage ever existed.
- You wanted to play the game, and supposedly win - you paid money (via a subscription) to do so (P2W)
- Others wanted to play the game, and supposedly win - they paid nothing and were unable to do so (blocked by P2W)I know, it's hard to understand.
Not at all.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
You answered your own question:And how did my subscription grant me an advantage over anyone who did not subscribe? The people who did not subscribe did not play the game, and thus no advantage ever existed.
- You wanted to play the game, and supposedly win - you paid money (via a subscription) to do so (P2W)
- Others wanted to play the game, and supposedly win - they paid nothing and were unable to do so (blocked by P2W)I know, it's hard to understand.
Not at all.
I did not pay money to gain an advantage over anyone else, because these people who did not pay did not exist in the game. How can you gain an advantage over someone, who does not exist? Against other players, zero advantage existed.
By your logic, you should be able to win a boxing match without ever stepping in the ring. It doesn't work that way.
What you are talking about is the simple process of purchasing the equipment (for my analogy, those would be the boxing gloves & shorts, you can't fight without them). A necessary equipment, that doesn't really provide an advantage over anyone (because every other participant also has it).Edited by DDuke on March 23, 2015 12:55AM0 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Sure you did. Plenty of others initially bought the game, then deciding not to subscribe for whatever reason. Some of those came back, once the pay gate was lifted. Their characters continued to exist, and they accessed them again recently.[I did not pay money to gain an advantage over anyone else, because these people who did not pay did not exist in the game. How can you gain an advantage over someone, who does not exist? Against other players, zero advantage existed.
No, that's a red herring. We're discussing players in ESO, not boxing.By your logic, you should be able to win a boxing match without ever stepping in the ring. It doesn't work that way.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
eisberg✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
Nope, that's just life. Some people have more time than others, you have to solve this in real life (like many others have).
I do agree though, grind2win isn't a good thing either (and I've spoken against it).
Time spent in the game shouldn't determine your success. How good you are at it should, which is why many MMOs go the PvE raid/competitive PvP arenas route, which I largely prefer.
Lastly, my opinions aren't facts. I'll make sure to state out when something is an opinion
I cannot be working on a false premise, when I've already proven how XP Boosters give other people significant advantages & help them win.
I am yet to see someone prove otherwise, which I'd very much like to see (except by saying "but, but.. it doesn't help me because I don't play 24/7 with them"), so that we can have a rational discussion instead of back and forth bickering & accusations.
How is it not pay 2 win? Easy, everyone can reach the same CP score, it is not being blocked by paying to reach it. It is only Pay2Win is if the only way to achieve it is through paying. Playing the game without paying you can achieve the same thing.
This is the crux of the argument. You have one group that feels that as long as it can be achieved while playing it is not pay to win, while others feel that if it can be achieved faster through paying, it is pay to win. And this is why your poll is invalid and cannot be used on anything specific about if something is pay 2 win or not.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
Nope, that's just life. Some people have more time than others, you have to solve this in real life (like many others have).
I do agree though, grind2win isn't a good thing either (and I've spoken against it).
Time spent in the game shouldn't determine your success. How good you are at it should, which is why many MMOs go the PvE raid/competitive PvP arenas route, which I largely prefer.
Lastly, my opinions aren't facts. I'll make sure to state out when something is an opinion
I cannot be working on a false premise, when I've already proven how XP Boosters give other people significant advantages & help them win.
I am yet to see someone prove otherwise, which I'd very much like to see (except by saying "but, but.. it doesn't help me because I don't play 24/7 with them"), so that we can have a rational discussion instead of back and forth bickering & accusations.
How is it not pay 2 win? Easy, everyone can reach the same CP score, it is not being blocked by paying to reach it. It is only Pay2Win is if the only way to achieve it is through paying. Playing the game without paying you can achieve the same thing.
Average CP/day is 1-2 for players, there are 3600 CPs & no guarantees more won't be added. This means you can reach it in 5-10 years, during which you'll be at severe disadvantage (which keeps exponentially increasing) against everyone using those potions.
Champion System is meant as an infinite hamster wheel, not a leveling process you max out in a week or two. And even if you could in theory max it out faster by playing 24/7 (we're still talking about years) before more CPs were added, you'd have to use the potions to achieve that.
I actually explained this already here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159182/screenshot-50-experience-booster-zos-can-we-get-a-confirmation-or-further-details/p21This is the crux of the argument.
Well, it was kind of weak, sorry.Edited by DDuke on March 23, 2015 1:10AM1 -
eisberg✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
Nope, that's just life. Some people have more time than others, you have to solve this in real life (like many others have).
I do agree though, grind2win isn't a good thing either (and I've spoken against it).
Time spent in the game shouldn't determine your success. How good you are at it should, which is why many MMOs go the PvE raid/competitive PvP arenas route, which I largely prefer.
Lastly, my opinions aren't facts. I'll make sure to state out when something is an opinion
I cannot be working on a false premise, when I've already proven how XP Boosters give other people significant advantages & help them win.
I am yet to see someone prove otherwise, which I'd very much like to see (except by saying "but, but.. it doesn't help me because I don't play 24/7 with them"), so that we can have a rational discussion instead of back and forth bickering & accusations.
How is it not pay 2 win? Easy, everyone can reach the same CP score, it is not being blocked by paying to reach it. It is only Pay2Win is if the only way to achieve it is through paying. Playing the game without paying you can achieve the same thing.
Average CP/day is 1-2 for players, there are 3600 CPs & no guarantees more won't be added. This means you can reach it in 5-10 years, during which you'll be at severe disadvantage (which keeps exponentially increasing) against everyone using those potions.
Champion System is meant as an infinite hamster wheel, not a leveling process you max out in a week or two.This is the crux of the argument.
Well, it was kind of weak, sorry.
Unless you are the people who play the most hours then everybody else, there will always be someone above you in CP points, regardless of the XP potions or not.
And your argument is weak as well, sorry.
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YourNameHere✭✭✭Er, I don't get the reasoning behind this poll.
Right now it is B2P (buy to play) ... and nothing in the crown store is B2W. Nothing affects how you play ....
*confused*NA Megaserver / RPer
Alinyssa Gaethar - AD || Raahni-do - AD || Wind-In-Tree's-Shadow - DC0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
Nope, that's just life. Some people have more time than others, you have to solve this in real life (like many others have).
I do agree though, grind2win isn't a good thing either (and I've spoken against it).
Time spent in the game shouldn't determine your success. How good you are at it should, which is why many MMOs go the PvE raid/competitive PvP arenas route, which I largely prefer.
Lastly, my opinions aren't facts. I'll make sure to state out when something is an opinion
I cannot be working on a false premise, when I've already proven how XP Boosters give other people significant advantages & help them win.
I am yet to see someone prove otherwise, which I'd very much like to see (except by saying "but, but.. it doesn't help me because I don't play 24/7 with them"), so that we can have a rational discussion instead of back and forth bickering & accusations.
How is it not pay 2 win? Easy, everyone can reach the same CP score, it is not being blocked by paying to reach it. It is only Pay2Win is if the only way to achieve it is through paying. Playing the game without paying you can achieve the same thing.
Average CP/day is 1-2 for players, there are 3600 CPs & no guarantees more won't be added. This means you can reach it in 5-10 years, during which you'll be at severe disadvantage (which keeps exponentially increasing) against everyone using those potions.
Champion System is meant as an infinite hamster wheel, not a leveling process you max out in a week or two.This is the crux of the argument.
Well, it was kind of weak, sorry.
Unless you are the people who play the most hours then everybody else, there will always be someone above you in CP points, regardless of the XP potions or not.
And your argument is weak as well, sorry.
I don't care if someone wins by playing the game, though it should be about skill, not time spent grinding.
When it's about who grinds the most and spends the most, is when there start to be issues.
What happens with XP potions is, that exponentially larger number of people will be above me in CP points, because they purchased a 50% advantage, and the people who would be above me anyhow, will be exponentially more above me.
E.g. I play 8 hours a day, Average Joe plays 6 hours a day, but throws cash at the screen non-stop. Joe becomes more powerful than I do. Meanwhile, Mike the Grinder who played 12 hours and thus had 50% advantage now also throws money at the screen. Mike the Grinder effectively plays 18 hours with his boost (125% more than I do).
But hey, nice strawman and thanks for specifying how my argument was "weak", very constructive Edited by DDuke on March 23, 2015 1:27AM1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YourNameHere wrote: »Er, I don't get the reasoning behind this poll.
Right now it is B2P (buy to play) ... and nothing in the crown store is B2W. Nothing affects how you play ....
*confused*
Simple poll about whether you want P2W or not.
What is currently there is no indicative what the future may hold.1 -
eisberg✭✭✭theweakminded wrote: »If you had an advantage over your opponent(s) achieved via $$$ and won, that was P2W. Simple.
By such a strict, objective definition, having a better computer or peripherals is pay to win. What you are not caring to realize is P2W is subjective because not everyone defines all paid differences as P2W. Person 'X' can spend an extra $1000 compared to person 'y' on computer parts, his computer never hits lag, that gives him an advantage. By definition he paid to win. Before you say 'that's not part of the cash shop' that doesn't matter, Pay to Win=Pay to Win (literally).
Edit: Typo
Plus, there are people who have money or access to money that allows to not work and able to play 18 hours a day as compared to someone who need to work for money and can only play for a 3 hours a day. That 18 hour a day person is using money to stay home and play all day, and will get a statistical advantage over the person who cannot play for that many hours a day, and apparently despite his own skills being the same or better cannot win against the 18 hour person cause apparently those statistical advantage is enough to determine who wins and who doesn't. So that would be pay 2 win as well.
I know that DDuke will disagree with this, and he feels that his opinion are facts, when really they are only an opinion. You cannot really have a debate with someone when they feel their opinion are actually facts, they are already working on a false premise.
Nope, that's just life. Some people have more time than others, you have to solve this in real life (like many others have).
I do agree though, grind2win isn't a good thing either (and I've spoken against it).
Time spent in the game shouldn't determine your success. How good you are at it should, which is why many MMOs go the PvE raid/competitive PvP arenas route, which I largely prefer.
Lastly, my opinions aren't facts. I'll make sure to state out when something is an opinion
I cannot be working on a false premise, when I've already proven how XP Boosters give other people significant advantages & help them win.
I am yet to see someone prove otherwise, which I'd very much like to see (except by saying "but, but.. it doesn't help me because I don't play 24/7 with them"), so that we can have a rational discussion instead of back and forth bickering & accusations.
How is it not pay 2 win? Easy, everyone can reach the same CP score, it is not being blocked by paying to reach it. It is only Pay2Win is if the only way to achieve it is through paying. Playing the game without paying you can achieve the same thing.
Average CP/day is 1-2 for players, there are 3600 CPs & no guarantees more won't be added. This means you can reach it in 5-10 years, during which you'll be at severe disadvantage (which keeps exponentially increasing) against everyone using those potions.
Champion System is meant as an infinite hamster wheel, not a leveling process you max out in a week or two.This is the crux of the argument.
Well, it was kind of weak, sorry.
Unless you are the people who play the most hours then everybody else, there will always be someone above you in CP points, regardless of the XP potions or not.
And your argument is weak as well, sorry.
But hey, nice strawman and thanks for specifying how my argument was "weak", very constructive
You missed the point, I said that to show you that this all based on opinions on both sides. You called my argument weak, and that is your opinion, and I consider yours weak as well, and that is my opinion. But this does not negate the fact that you used a poll out of context to try and make a point.
it is fine that you and I have differing opinions of what is pay 2 win and what is not. My issue with you is that you used a poll out of context to make a point in the other thread.
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