Future Potential Thornblade Campaign scoring change

Frawr

I think it's a great idea

There is a risk that keeps wouldn't be worth taking if worth the same as resources.

I would suggest scoring as follows:

1 per resource
2 per op
4 per keep
7 per scroll.

This way, 1 scroll is equivalent to 1 keep and it's resources.

I think that this makes big things worth chasing by large groups and also makes small things worth attacking by small groUps. It makes the points reflective of the challenge.

Everyone can make a difference

technohic

Thinking about it, looking at scoring is fine, but you will just have large groups wherever people think they need to fight. I think you just need to require to spread out more to capture things. Maybe require something like having to control 2 out of the 3 resources in order to flip flags. Or when a gate is down, require people to guard the gate in order to open and keep it open. Maybe its just a matter of having keep flags further apart and requiring both to have people on them for either to start flipping.

Roechacca

You can still Zerg keeps . You'll just be losing campaigns .

revcasy

technohic wrote: »

Thinking about it, looking at scoring is fine, but you will just have large groups wherever people think they need to fight. I think you just need to require to spread out more to capture things. Maybe require something like having to control 2 out of the 3 resources in order to flip flags. Or when a gate is down, require people to guard the gate in order to open and keep it open. Maybe its just a matter of having keep flags further apart and requiring both to have people on them for either to start flipping.

I LOVE both of these suggestions. Plus, these are both very technically feasible.

This even makes defense easier and gives a more realistic way for a smaller force to prevent a much larger force from capturing a keep. Which are both independent issues that needed to be addressed anyway.

Put one keep flag just inside the outer courtyard at the front gate, leave the second in the very back of the inside keep. Simultaneous capping. Genius!

AND it encourages active tactical play rather than mindless zerging. It doesn't get much better than that.

Arezius

Many great posts here, so I'll just try to speak about something I haven't read.

Change the way some AOE skills work, to make them spread. If I had to take an example from another game, take Rift and some skills of the Cleric or Warrior. The skill is launched on 1 target, this one target doesn't take much damage but it spread the skill to 3 targets, each of this targets will then spread the skill again to 3 other targets, with a limit of 3 spreads maybe.
This skill works as an AOE, so the damage to said target is not very high, but it damage the other targets around it, say 5 targets for example.
So, you'll have a skill that could touch 1x3x3x3= 27 targets, that will each do damage to 5 targets, with damage overlaps.

You get a skill that does not a lot of damage on an isolated target, but insane damage on a zerg.

And this could change the size of a zerg, because the more people in a zerg, the more damage will be done.

***

Like many, I don't think the scoring system would change much in the lag, and I don't agree with giving the same points for a keep and a resource (like explained in #79)
My point is, If you want to kill a zerg, give the player a tool to actually kill it.

***

Skill in question in Rift : http://rift.magelo.com/en/ability/-20600538

Sotha_Sil

First of all, thank you very much @ZOS_BrianWheeler for your work and taking the time to come here and discuss. It is greatly appreciated.

Furthermore, it is really great that it looks like things are being considered to improve the PVP, which is at a poor state at the moment, let's be honest.

As it has been said in the topic already I would like to emphasize on some facts. Is the scoring system appealing right now ?

* Nightcapping is discouraging mainly players to fight for objectives as there is good chance they will lose what they did during the day

*Rewards don't change really much between winners and losers

* Campaign Longevity : even if players would be playing for the win, can you imagine them fighting for 30 days 24/7 ? that's not possible. GW2 is the living proof of it.

* You don't fight for a campaign :
- EU communities (EN, FR, DE, SP, IT and so on) are spread out in campaigns and there is no "campaign spirit"
- Guesting options allow you to change campaign as you want. Waves of people come and go according to the state of the campaign (are we losing or winning atm on the map ?)

* There are no leaderboards and spotlights organized by ZOS on winning campaigns.

=> these point out to the fact that : winning a campaign is not an incentive in ESO PVP. People don't play to get the best score for their alliance. Thus, changing the way scoring is calculated won't change how people play and will probably not fix any PVP issues. This is not a solution because it is not focusing on what is wrong in Cyrodiil's PVP.

In order to stay constructive, I'd recommend you to have a look of the suggestions that have been spoken already on the forum about how to spread out players in Cyrodiil (at least a billion of them can be found).


Thank you very much for your understanding and have a nice day.

ps. I apologize for my awkward phrasing as English is not my native language.

TL;DR the OP is not targetting the root of PVP's problems as campaign score is not an incentive in ESO PVP and does not influence player's behavior.

Oughash

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

=> these points out to the fact that : winning a campaign is not an incentive in ESO PVP. People don't play to get the best score for their alliance. Thus, changing the way scoring is calculated won't change how people play and will probably not fix any PVP issues. This is not a solution because it is not focusing on what is wrong in Cyrodiil's PVP.

This is exactly right. Part of the reason people don't care to win is that there is no reason to win -- there are no good rewards. One or two "seasons" will get you enough AP to buy whatever gear you really want. Plus, once you get AR 10 -- which is a tremendous grind in itself -- there is no extra reward. I would love to see cosmetic gear unlocks for advancing alliance rank. Or new (novel) sets which cost ~500k AP / ea.

Also, thank you very much for engaging with PvP players over the last week or two. Please keep it up. Part of the reason we as a community are so vocal is that when the game works it is TREMENDOUSLY fun. I actually think that y'all (ZoS) don't really realize what you created with the Cyrodiil zone and how amazing it is. With a few (continuous) tweaks and additions you can retain huge chunks of players and attract even more. Word of mouth is everything in PvP circles: we want skilled opponents to fight against.

Dazin93

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

Your not going to stop the zerg mentality.
It's part of human nature.
Genghis Khan did it, Alexander did it, Caesar did it, Napoleon did it, Washington did it, Hitt7er did it, Schwartzkoff did it, it's how wars are fought. To quote Forrest .. "Get there the first with the most men..

@NadiusMaximus
I get your point, but your comparison is historically inaccurate. Caesar, for example, was vastly outnumbered when fighting the Gauls. He didn't win due to numbers, but due to strategy. The Gauls engaged in stylistic combat and had no understanding of the concept of siege warfare. Caesar leveraged that to his advantage by controlling critical resources and also used intra-tribe conflict to further his objectives.

Most of the best generals in history were great because they were brilliant strategists and understood the art of war. It wasn't because they had overwhelmingly superior numbers.

Rook_Master

Brian, you've been a rockstar this week man.

Keep it up.

Also, Zenimax should give you a raise.

Karoneth

Option 2, and end the campaign when you need to.

But as others have suggested, requiring resource capture before a keep can be taken might be nice, as would adding additional types of resource captures that would also be worth a point, such as Bridges, Milegates etc.

As far as what to do to keep scrolls worth something, maybe make them worth at least 2 points? They should not be worth only as much as a lumber mill in my opinion.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Just throwing in my voice to the camp of "scoring doesn't really matter, just make resources (and towns) more immediately meaningful to keep sieges." Manipulating numbers isn't interesting gameplay, and I would argue the vast majority of PvPers don't care about scoreboards anyways. Moreover, manipulating numbers (and adding instanced, PvP arenas in Cyrodiil) detracts from the feel/idea of the zone as an intense warzone with shifting front lines and strategies.

Make resources (and towns) strategically, not numerically, important, and you will create a more dynamic PvP experience that will also help spread people out. I also wanted to link this thread that has tons of ideas on how to accomplish this.

deleted221205-002626

more or less exactly what I suggested..

DHale

Night capping is going to happen. I doubt that ppl are really sleeping through the day or evening just to flip keeps and stick it to AD (us) in th enight. But if I was wrong it would not surprise me. I live in Cali and run pac time. Most of my guild are east coast so when i am getting home from a job (that is where ppl work 8 plus hours and cannot play for EP players) my guld runs for a bit then 6-7pm my group fizzles out and we often have a hanful of players left. More over we have aussies and ppl from Ireland in addtion to the canooks. When they run with us in the day it is very late for all bu the canooks. These ppl want to run on NA server and its night time for us when they are playing. I am sure it is the same for EP and DC. Lots of United Kingdom ppl too that play when I am counting sheep or trolling my i-pad for twtich ESO streamers and waiting for Sypher and JackDaniel to stream since they do so infrequently and irregularly... selfish only thinking of them selves and not my personal bemusement. /facepalm

For the Queen VR 14 AD Templar, not running RO

Joy_Division

Option 3:

Scrolls: 6 points
Keeps: 3 points
Outposts: 2 points
Resources: 1point
Bridges: 1 point
Milegates 1 point
Cities: 3 points
Alyeid Wells: 1 point
Supply Dump / Caravan / HQ (new features): 1 point.

Nivzruo_ESO

Whatever you can do to improve server stability, do it. You're losing players daily due to pvp being unplayable.

WebBull

Brian, please don't get locked down on just the 2 options you outlined. There are some really good ideas in this thread that will spread people out and still keep the core Cyrodiil game fundamentals intact. After all it is Elder Scrolls, not Elder Resources.

SturgeHammer

prose08b14a_ESO wrote: »

How about a Mage Tower resource that controls incoming and outgoing portals, a graveyard/temple resource that controls resurrections, and a Mine/Mill that controls wall repairs and siege vulnerability? These types of things would drastically increase the viability of targetting resources over just stealth-bursting a keep and then watching your whole faction zerg towards it for a lag-filled event with no AP to show for it.

I am a big fan of the mechanics and flavor of this suggestion. It would make sieges feel like your alliance is actually cutting of vital resources to a keep and cause a panic to defenders, which in my opinion would make pvp way more immersive. To add a little to that I think having the graveyard/temple resource be a subterranean catacomb or tomb would be awesome and provide a little close quarters action.

Roechacca

The best way to change how pvp works and discourage unwanted Zerg behavior is to Eliminate Emperor passive line and AP . Just make Emperor a title reward . Give Seige out for free and only have reward armor through the mail . Jewelry and weapons too at the end of a campaign if your side wins . Then people would play to win instead of play to farm . No one but the pvp purists that play just for pvp will like the idea but it would eliminate the wannabe gear and title grinders .

DHale

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

Whatever you can do to improve server stability, do it. You're losing players daily due to pvp being unplayable.

If anyone leaves the game can you send your mats and stuff to @DHale... waiting. The ppl I want to leave don't and the ppl who did leave weren't doing anything helpful. Pop has increased not decreased I had to wait in Que for Chill last night and Thorn was pop locked at the same time. Where I totally agree with you the lag needs to be fixed and should be a top priority you can see from the time this problem has persisted they dont know how to fix it. They may break it more. There were supposed to be solutions to improve lag in 1.6 and it got worse.

Weberda

Roechacca wrote: »

The best way to change how pvp works and discourage unwanted Zerg behavior is to Eliminate Emperor passive line and AP . Just make Emperor a title reward . Give Seige out for free and only have reward armor through the mail . Jewelry and weapons too at the end of a campaign if your side wins . Then people would play to win instead of play to farm . No one but the pvp purists that play just for pvp will like the idea but it would eliminate the wannabe gear and title grinders .

A revolutionary idea based on the realities of the current mindset of many players (sadly). I'm sure you're aware that about a million flying objects are headed your way. And I support your idea 100%.

Sotha_Sil

Emperor is definitely not the issue, people don't farm for that as it requires a lot of time playing to get to the top. People farm for alliance rank 10 and its skills at the beginning. Then they farm for titles.

Roechacca

Weberda wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

The best way to change how pvp works and discourage unwanted Zerg behavior is to Eliminate Emperor passive line and AP . Just make Emperor a title reward . Give Seige out for free and only have reward armor through the mail . Jewelry and weapons too at the end of a campaign if your side wins . Then people would play to win instead of play to farm . No one but the pvp purists that play just for pvp will like the idea but it would eliminate the wannabe gear and title grinders .

A revolutionary idea based on the realities of the current mindset of many players (sadly). I'm sure you're aware that about a million flying objects are headed your way. And I support your idea 100%.

My body is ready

Oktaine

Joy_Division wrote: »

Option 3:

Scrolls: 6 points
Keeps: 3 points
Outposts: 2 points
Resources: 1point
Bridges: 1 point
Milegates 1 point
Cities: 3 points
Alyeid Wells: 1 point
Supply Dump / Caravan / HQ (new features): 1 point.

This I like a lot

frozywozy

Like alot of people mentionned, I think that changing the way the scoring system works is a waste of precious time and ressources that could be spent somewhere else for now. I'm not saying that the scoring system is perfect as it is but I feel like this is taken way too seriously.

There are a lot of more important matters to focus on that would make us, your customers, alot happier such as :

- Performances in Cyrodiil

Latency going up and down during huge battles when people stack close to each other.

- The mount traveling bug

Stopping for no reason every 5 seconds when your mount is riding at full speed.

- The siege bugs

When using multiple sieges at the same time, when switching to one siege like a balista, as soon as you get in the siege animation mode, your balista will auto-fire right in front of it even if you never pressed the button to fire.

When using multiple sieges at the same time, when switching to one siege like a balista, sometimes you will lose the green crosshair and will have to reengage the siege up to 10-15times to get the green crosshair back. Otherwise, if you fire, it will fire right in front of it.

- Multiple ability bugs

Just a few examples that comes into my head :

1. If you use Dragon Scales right after dodge rolling, you see the animation and the buff displaying but most of the time it won't work and projectiles still hit you.
2. Purge is not working as intended. Sometimes I still have to spam purge 4-5times to remove the healing debuff on myself. Also, the mark skill from nightblades is impossible to purge sometimes (using efficient purge morph).

- Population imbalances

During offhours, populations seem to go in the favor of one faction per campaign.

- PvE Buff campaigns

PvE players come in Cyrodiil only to defend their ghost campaign for buffs. There are multiple of ways to encourage PvE-ers to come in Cyrodiil other than this.

In my opinion, these changes are far more important than dealing with the scoring system at the moment.

Etaniel

I didn't read the whole thread, but I don't think it was mentioned :
One big reasons why people clump up at keeps/outposts are defense/attack ticks.
Example : You defend a keep from 20 attackers with 20 defenders. Instead of chasing out the remaining attacking forces, the defenders stay for the tick. The tick doesnt come because a few attackers are still here and some defenders actually don't care about the tick so people keep dying in range. This gives time for more attackers to come back and start sieging again.

This leads to more people coming to defend, more coming to attack, and ends up in a big lag fest because everyone won't go anywhere else since there is a huge tick to be had at that particular keep.

I love having that big reward after defending or attacking an objective that took a lot of effort, but it's causing harm I think as AP is what drives a lot of people, and people won't move from an objective as long as the tick hasn't been distributed.

Before you can figure out how to rework the tick system, you should just remove it, and people should move around a bit faster and we should get less clumps around keep, and therefore less lag.


As for your suggestions for the scoring system, keeps should be worth more than ressources so option 2 sounds better.

ginoboehm

Did you just ask us what we want before changing something? is this your last week or is this the new zenimax?

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Increasing the AP you get for capturing undefended keeps/resources would, as people have pointed out, generate a mentality of "flipping for AP" or "Tower Trading" since they get AP more readily/easier than player killing.

As a clarification as well, the keep and scroll bonuses will remain active as well as the transit lines.

We have proposed internally putting murderball, CTF and "battleground style games" in the towns since some are tailored for it (Cheydinhal is perfect for a CTF), but for the time being this requires more code/UI time than we currently can spare.

and you are honest with us?! i will keep my 6 month suscription just for this.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler all for option 2 just because you can transfer this logic to low pop campaigns without allowing 4 players flip the ranking in one night. I think ending would be ok

Hutuldur

Making resources give same amount of AP than keeps will just cause small groups randomly running around capping them. Cat and mouse game, not proper pvp. Please don't do that. Keeps and scrolls should give much more AP than resources.

Easy way to solve the issue would be giving resources more combat value, so attacker would need to fight for them also and not just take keep.

For example:
1x resource need to be taken and held before outer wall takes damage.
2x resource need to be taken and held before inner wall takes damage.
3x no new benefit expect the current ones. This way defenders can't just camp on one resource.

If attacker concentrates all forces to keep, defenders could take resources around the keep to stop the attack. One zerg of 50+ people actually couldn't take the keep vs two groups of 5+ people, but zerg needs to split up => lag solved.

Makes sense also, you can't really siege, if you are surrounded by enemies. More smaller fights, different places, less lag.

maryriv

Taking a keep should be worth tons more than it currently is, not really worth taking atm.

Also quest rewards are very bad compared to the risk involved.

PeggymoeXD

Get rid of everything everywhere. Except the trees, they're pretty.

Just open world open field combat.

Actually spawn a titan every now and then. Yeah that'd be cool.

Suhxtob-yu

You want to put an end to the zergs?

Make every AoE scale UPWARDS when hitting more opponents instead of the current DOWNWARD scaling model.

When people figure out that they are being 1-shorted because they are clumped up, they will spread out.