Idea: Class Morphs

bloodenragedb14_ESO

ive said this in a few other threads, though id go ahead and make it its own discussion to see what the general feedback on my idea is

i think that instead of new classes, you should get class morphs. when you reach a specific level, you get to choose a different path. relativly same skills, but different elements and power animations.


sorcerer would branch into atromancy or necromancy

templar would branch to to paladin or druid/priest

dragonknight would change to vanguard or spellsword

nightblade would switch to assassin or illusionist

by no means are we restricted to two paths, if you have a idea for a class morph, lets hear it.

(btw, zos, by the gods, please read this, i wanna be a necromancer dangit)

AshySamurai

I think it will limit future builds. All players can easily switch from DD to Tank role or to Heal. But this spspecialisation will make this switches impossible.

TheShadowScout

I had a similar suggestion a while back, for a class morph to be choosen after completing Cadwells silver/gold... to reward people who do play through that - a variation of the idea was to let them do the class morph after silver, and let them pick a cross-class skill line (basic class skills only) after gold...
I'll just repost it here:

So I would think the best way to add more "classes" is to give each class, say, three different "class morphs", each with its own new skill/passives line. Perhaps becoming available after completing cadwells silver? Some possibilities:

Dragonknight
- Berzerker (self buffs, warcries?)
- Conqueror (group buffs, standarts)
- Pyromancer (flame resist and even more fire)

Nightblade
- Illusionist (illusion summoning, mind magic)
- Monk (melee support & assorted magic?)
- Ranger (animal summoning and magic)

Sorceror
- Cryomancer (ice magic)
- Necromancer (death magic and undead summoning)
- Spellsword (melee support & magic)

Templar
- Druid (plant magic, some summons)
- Shaman (primal nature magic, totems)
- Witchhunter (counterspells)

Those were quick ideas of course, without much consideration but flavor. I went for three options instead of two to add more choices for added character diversity. Since that is always something I would love to see... much more fun having more diversity, especially since the limited number of skills one can actually use at any one time (5+U) makes people having to think and choose, so adding more active skills only increases a characters choices, not exactly their power...
And yes, spellcrafting might be able to cover some of those... but spellcrafting won't give you passives, which these skill lines should.

Seraphyel

Great ideas!

ThatHappyCat

Perhaps each class can choose to specialise in one of their class lines, which allows morphed skills in that line to be morphed again (with two choices as usual) when they reach level 4... for a total of four variations per skill.

Line specialisation can be changed for a significant fee, of course.

Anvos

Not really sure classes should morph, but I could see maybe getting to chose from say a small pool of advanced skill lines for each class.

say

Sorc
Cyromancy (damage and cc line based around ice)
Advanced Alteration (sort of a heal/buff tree)

Dragon Knight
Secrets of Kai (based on stealing akaviri kai, would be a set of medium ranged abilities for dragon knight)
Blademaster

Night Blade
Nightmare/Shadow Summoning
Sabetour (line based around traps and alchemical grenades)

Templar
Dark Light (would be a sort of cc and debuff tree based on the concept of the dark light abilities already seen in one morph)
Aetherial Fortitude (sort based around the Templar turning their powers inward to increase power and defense of themselves and allies)

Thymos

I have to go with @Anvos . I'm not sure if morphing the whole class is actually worth it, or even adding another morph to each skill.

However, dropping in a pool of advanced skill lines that open up after a certain level or achievement. It doesn't really need to be a full on skill line like the 3 class skill lines, but maybe something that has like 3 active skills and 3 passives, and maybe a new ultimate.

TheLaw

I like the overall idea, just not the actuall morphs given. Also, a system like this might limit the functionality of a toon. Right now I can swap between a dps, heals or even a tank, just by changing abilities and gear.

Fizzlewizzle

I really love this idea, it would give so many playstyle options without really changing much to the game.
@TheShadowScout has the best idea for this (personal opinion).
Most seem in line with what said classes can do now, yet further specified. (Although i would go for Assassin instead of monk when it comes to the Nightblade. Monk seems more appropriate for the Templar, although i have to say that the options you gave them are already beautiful enough to not wanting to swap any of them).

Maybe allow a character to open these new classes when they reach level 50 in 1 (or multiple) Class skills, depending on which skills. If each Class skill tree was connected to 1 of the new "classes" then a player would have no choice to invest time in every skill tree IF they wanted to taste all classes.

I hope some defs will read this.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

morphing the class trees instead of the entire class is a good idea too.

lets expand on that a bit too, what if we could morph our weapon skills. im sure some people would like to morph the onehanded shield into onehanded and magic, like you could do in skyrim.

maybe if you max out both restoration and destruction staves, you can morph them into magic hands or something, where you dont use staves to cast magic at all.(something i really want in some way, im of the opinion if a mage needs a staff, he is weak)

there are alot of things they can do, and hopefully will do since most skill trees only go up to 50, and in other TES games they went up to 100.

Gidorick

I really hope they do this... It seems like a good way to extend gameplay.

Jar_Ek

I am also of the view that additional advanced skill lines are the way to go, these could be mutually exclusive however.
But my preference would be to change skill morphs so there were more options and to add passive morphs. This would mean that more stamina options could be included in all classes and all classes could get some healer and tank options. If done well it could even make hybrids viable.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I am also of the view that additional advanced skill lines are the way to go, these could be mutually exclusive however.
But my preference would be to change skill morphs so there were more options and to add passive morphs. This would mean that more stamina options could be included in all classes and all classes could get some healer and tank options. If done well it could even make hybrids viable.

i dont necessarily agree with those that are wishing to add stamina changes to sorcerer, magick is fueled by magicka, not physical exaustion. if anything, im willing to entertain buffs to stamina fueled by magicka, but actual spells fueled by stamina, i detest that idea to the point of loathing

TheShadowScout

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

...Although i would go for Assassin instead of monk when it comes to the Nightblade.

I went for "monk" for two reasons...
1.- Nightblades already have an "assassination" skill line, and I didn't want the confusion.
2.- as a nod to the old D&D "monk" class, which was basically the first kung-fu-ish character concept for fantasy roleplay setting I know of.

...of course, all those ideas are just very rough concepts. I merely tried to give some options, and more then just "magica-specialization / stamina specialization" - It's supposed to be more flavor then anything else after all.
Thus for nightblades, one magica-caster based with "illusionist", one stamina melee based with "monk" and one pet based as "ranger" since nightblades mesh very well with bow, and giving them woodland creatures for the "hunter" playstyle would seem applicable.

Similar thoughts for the sorceror - spellsword for stamina sorcerors, cryomancer since ice staves have no accompaning skill line yet, and necromancer because all too many people really, really want that...

Of course, some other of my suggestions I am not entirely happy with.

Templar... my "druid" and shaman" ideas could be meshed into one "nature magic" skill line, and instead something for melee tanky templars would be an option. "Paladin", maybe? The "witchunter" idea is kinda inspired by the spanish inquisition (Yes, I know noone expected that ), its "warhammer" imperial counterpart and also "Dragon Age", I admit it... seems logical to set up the aedric-flavored templars as natural enemies of the more deadric-flavored sorcerors...

Dragonknight I had the fewest ideas, since I kinda dislike that class. More fire magic is a natural first thought... so then I went with "group play support" and "single combatant" flavors, though there may be better ideas then those...


There are also some other ideas floating around that are somewhat more generic, and thus would maybe be better for a new guild to come someday... "Bard" for example (music based buff/debuff magic), though also a skill line dealing with more traps and tricks might be a possibility... (though we may have to see what of those more generic ideas the upcoming "Thieves Guild" and "Dark Brotherhood" might cover)

Another older idea for more skills&flavors I had that might be worth reposting here is...
What about a "guild mastery" level? Giving access to advanced guild abilities, but with limitations as to who can choose them?
Like... fighers guild mastery, requiring a minimum of two weapon skill lines (not counting staves) with all skills morphed & maxed? Or medium/heavy armor skill of 50? (or both?) Or possibly 20+ ability points in health or stamina?
And... mages guild mastery, requiring morphing and maxing All the mages guild skills as well as at least one class skill line? And maybe also light armor? Or maybe 20+ ability points in magica?

Possibly with passives that synergize well not only with other "guild" abilities, but with the requirement abilities as well? Fighters guild mastery helping All weapon fighting skills, not just fighting daedra & undead? Mages guild mastery enhancing ALL spellcasting, not just mages guild abilities?

And of course, those masteries would have to be exclusive... as in, can be attained in only one guild? (including the someday coming thieves guild and dark brotherhood...)

That way, everyone could join every guild for the basic skills, but gain mastery skill line & passives in only one guild matched to their skill set... leading the players to make their choices and customize their character accordingly...

Fizzlewizzle

I am not well known with the D&D games, so the only "fighting Monk" i know is from the latest Diablo game (which is also a holy type fighter). Hence the reason i went towards Assassin for a name choice. I do see your point about the naming of both a class as well as a skill with the same name, as well as a more Stamina based approach compared to the magicka based "illusionist".

No matter if you're "happy" with your suggestions or not, its very good material to work with then it comes to suggestions, as you did branch out with a of possible options.
Personally i would be most interesting in what the devs (or players) could make when it comes to the Templar options, as i main a Templar.

The guild part, although it sounds awesome, seems like a bad idea from a personal point of view.
Although the whole concept of "only being able to use something when you fit certain requirements" seems like a good standpoint, but as a 7/7 heavy armor Spellcaster i might see a bit of problems since ill probably fall in multiple categories without excelling in one. (Same with other people going full health on a caster for PvP reasons)

seanvwolf

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

ive said this in a few other threads, though id go ahead and make it its own discussion to see what the general feedback on my idea is

i think that instead of new classes, you should get class morphs. when you reach a specific level, you get to choose a different path. relativly same skills, but different elements and power animations.


sorcerer would branch into atromancy or necromancy

templar would branch to to paladin or druid/priest

dragonknight would change to vanguard or spellsword

nightblade would switch to assassin or illusionist

by no means are we restricted to two paths, if you have a idea for a class morph, lets hear it.

(btw, zos, by the gods, please read this, i wanna be a necromancer dangit)

The four classes provided are inherently hybrid versions of previous TES' classes. Instead of class morphs, just open up more World and Class skill lines.

seanvwolf

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I am also of the view that additional advanced skill lines are the way to go, these could be mutually exclusive however.
But my preference would be to change skill morphs so there were more options and to add passive morphs. This would mean that more stamina options could be included in all classes and all classes could get some healer and tank options. If done well it could even make hybrids viable.

i dont necessarily agree with those that are wishing to add stamina changes to sorcerer, magick is fueled by magicka, not physical exaustion. if anything, im willing to entertain buffs to stamina fueled by magicka, but actual spells fueled by stamina, i detest that idea to the point of loathing

Except for magick that is performed through the use of physical actions (gesturing, breaking physical limits, ritual observance). Right? No?

bloodenragedb14_ESO

each of those things dont sound like spells seanvwolf.

im speaking of throwing a fireball or summoning a atronach with Stamina, it just doesnt make sense. I could actually understand using health to power spells, blood magic being a thing , but 'physical exaustion' spells, again, just no.

Jar_Ek

Well I actually meant morphs that would support stamina users, and other roles. Not necessarily stamina driven abilities. Having said that, I see no reason that some daedric abilities could not draw power from physical strength or even health.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

I have no problem with health drivin magic, as i said blood magic is a thing, but never (to my knowledge) in the history of the TES series has a spell been powered by stamina.

If stamina costing spells must come to pass, i can only hope that they also use a degree of magicka cost as well.

Woolenthreads

Level? Why not satify one of everyones bugbears and say people get that choice when they reach "Veteran Rank"

bloodenragedb14_ESO

zos is trying to get rid of veteran rank, i wouldnt mind a alternative personally, the grind between 1 and 14 is mind numbing

Orihara_Izaya

I think this game has a hard enough time balancing combat as it is. Forget adding another layer to it. I think it's a bad idea, if anything they would be removing classes not further limiting people.

Mr.Hmm

As the second post said, No it will limit future builds.

New classes are better

DogFaceInBananaPatch

AshySamurai wrote: »

I think it will limit future builds. All players can easily switch from DD to Tank role or to Heal. But this spspecialisation will make this switches impossible.

Which is a very good thing.

Fizzlewizzle

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

I have no problem with health drivin magic, as i said blood magic is a thing, but never (to my knowledge) in the history of the TES series has a spell been powered by stamina.

If stamina costing spells must come to pass, i can only hope that they also use a degree of magicka cost as well.

Stamina based spells could be easily accepted, as long as its presented the right way to the player.
You talk about a Master Sorcerer (even though they specialize in Stamina), so you can expect them to have no trouble with the basics of magic. Conjuring a bow or sword should be very easy, but handling those items would require a more physical (Stamina) approach. Look at the new Grim Focus (Nightblade). Instead of using melee (or the skill) X times before it gets a special effect, you use it ones which summons the weapon, after which you can use it X times which will consume stamina.
(Would also open up the option to use other trees through magic, though you shouldn't be able to use any magic weapon skill trees).

Using Telekinesis would be the same. Grabbing something with magic is "easy", but do you have the needed physical strength to move or damage said object if you were to grab it with your own hands. The magic could be below basic level (for you), yet the physical aspect would still count.

Last example: "Earthbending" (Avatar, animated series). Not the "look a floating rock" type of bending, but the "i kick the ground here with all my might and it will explode where you stand" or the "lets pull a giant stone sword from the ground and smash you on the head with it" type of earthbending.

As long as something looks physically taxing on the user it could get away with using stamina. The plain and simple fireball to the face wouldn't be able to get away with it.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

summoning a bow or sword still takes magicka, if you have skills in those weapons, good for you, but creating a bow or sword out of magicka is, again, using magicka.

in past installments, telekinesis used magicka, never stamina, as such its safe to assume in canon it does not take physical strength to manipulate magicka during telekinesis

your 'earthbending' is not apart of the elder scrolls universe, as such is a invalid example, we are talking magicka, not chi or whatever, the physics of the TES universe are vastly different.


if you want to tac on a stamina cost on top of a magicka cost to a spell. good for you, just remember spells are only possible through magicka, without that you are just waving your arms around like an idiot

NOW CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO THE TOPIC

CLASS MORPHS/SKILL TREE MORPHS

discuss

Fizzlewizzle

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

summoning a bow or sword still takes magicka, if you have skills in those weapons, good for you, but creating a bow or sword out of magicka is, again, using magicka.

in past installments, telekinesis used magicka, never stamina, as such its safe to assume in canon it does not take physical strength to manipulate magicka during telekinesis

your 'earthbending' is not apart of the elder scrolls universe, as such is a invalid example, we are talking magicka, not chi or whatever, the physics of the TES universe are vastly different.


if you want to tac on a stamina cost on top of a magicka cost to a spell. good for you, just remember spells are only possible through magicka, without that you are just waving your arms around like an idiot

NOW CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO THE TOPIC

CLASS MORPHS/SKILL TREE MORPHS

discuss

In the other Elder Scrolls games you are just some random prisoner, here you are already "mastered" in a profession (aka the classes).
If you want to complain about "summoning" weapons without magic, you might want to take a look at Biting Jabs (Templar stamina skill that summons a spear). As for "earthbending", i believe the Dragonknights have a skill with which they stomp stone spikes out of the ground (Tallons).

I never said anything about ki or whatever, just that the magic they use to conduct there physical strength (telekenesis or "earthbending" ) has become so easy for them that the actuel magicalpart doesn't require any thoughts or energy.

The whole point i was trying to make was that if you present it the right way to the player, people wont put many questions with it. I never went off topic, i just wanted to give you some examples of possible options.
(i can give you a whole list of stupid arm waving abilities (stamina skills) where its clear that something "magical" is happening, but ill assume you wont need a list and that we can continue with exchanging ideas for new classes in a friendly way.)

bloodenragedb14_ESO

i believe we will continue to disagree on this no matter the length of this discussion, so lets just move along shall we?

Dreddnawt

@bloodenragedb14_ESO,
+1 Agree for your OP even though I do NOT agree on concrete class specializations as I am with those above who would feel that takes us away from the TES ideals of "anyone can do anything" which is why most of us are here in the first place. Forks on class progression would pigeonhole players forcing us to choose our role in a hard fast way that may not always be what we want to do for every situation. Case in point: I play a Templar Tank but am able to switch gear and skills to become a full healer or dps/heal as needed by my group mates. So if my group has another tank but cant find a healer, I am then the healer.

I would also note that being able to fine tune and enhance your specific build strengths can now be done quite well through the Champion system.

@TheShadowScout,
While I am not in favor of the original idea, I am intrigued by your comments and conclusions. +2 Awesome for you there bud. Id like to expand on what you posted above a bit if i may, just in the spirit of seeing this concept through:

How about instead of essentially choosing a new class at lvl 50 or complicating matters with dozens of new morph trees that will eventually have us all bleeding from the ears trying to keep up, why dont we explore Expanded Class Trees that build on our existing features. ECTs should offer 2-4 active skills and the same amount of new passives. Players could apply points to whichever Expended Tree they want but may only have the applicable skills and bonuses of one advanced tree active at a time (changeable for a fee at the Temple). So a Vet DK can choose to improve Earthen Heart ECT for added tanking abilities or Ardent Flame ECT for more dps. If the DK chooses to switch from EH to AF tree, the applied skill points in the advanced tree alone are refunded allowing the DK to begin progressing in a different tree. A full skill points respec would also allow a new choice.

The advanced trees could work in lore very well by each representing not only the theme of the general Class Tree it expands on but also one of the three major celestial signs: Mage, Thief, and Warrior. Additionally, each respective sign would have passives focused on increasing Magicka, Stamina, or Health along with active abilities supporting elements of either Healing, DPS, CC, or Tanking.

Lastly, unlocking a certain level of said Expanded Class Trees can offer an achievement that grants the character a title, usable only when the associated tree is active, just for the status symbol of it.

Dreddnawt

For the following EXAMPLES:
original class line -> extended class line (theme and concept)
Sign / Major (minor) passive and resource focus / Major (minor) active ability roles: skill line description

Dragonknight
~ Ardent Flame -> Pyromancer (flame resist, fire Fire FIRE!)
Mage / Magicka (health) / DPS (heal): Ferocious as the flames they command, these mages are so attuned to their element they can draw vitality from fiery destruction.

~ Draconic Power -> Dragoon (area effects, standards)
Thief / Stamina (magicka) / CC (tanking): These mobile and deadly fighters raise their battle standards to rally troops and bring tactical control to chaotic situations.

~ Earthen Heart -> Conqueror (self buffs, war cries)
Warrior / Health (stamina) / Tanking (CC): With a mighty shout to the war god Talos, this imposing warrior empowers himself and terrifies foes with every earth shaking step.
_______________________________________________
Nightblade
~ Shadow -> Illusionist (illusion, mind magic)
~ Siphoning -> Berserker (self-buffs, rage)
~ Assassination -> Ranger (animal summons, traps)
_______________________________________________
Sorcerer
~ Storm Calling -> Cryomancer (ice magic)
~ Daedric Summoning -> Necromancer (blood magic, undead summons)
~ Dark Magic -> Spellsword (melee support & magic)
_______________________________________________
Templar
~ Aedric Spear -> Crusader (holy magic, protection)
Warrior / Health (stamina) / Tank (heal): Through shear Faith and Will these shining knights protect themselves and allies with Holy Light to reduce negative status effects and magic damage.

~ Dawn’s Wrath -> Witchhunter (counter-spells, anti-mage)
Thief / Stamina (magicka) / CC (DPS): These fierce fighters use the piercing rays of the sun to disrupt and disorient channelers of dark Daedric magicks.

~ Restoring Light -> Wyrd Tender (nature magic, totems)(druid/shaman)
Mage / Magicka (health) / Heal (CC): After dedicating years to nurturing the power of Life, these giving souls are now empowered by Nature itself granting vitality and protection to them and allies.

EDIT: Adding more skill lines.